History Main / DesignatedEvil

13th Oct '17 11:22:07 AM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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--->'''Welkin:''' "Tell me why... why did you have to [[spoiler:shoot her]]?!"
--->'''Faldio:''' "The people... Gallia needed her. Now let me ask you a question: how else do you think we could have won that battle? If not for [[spoiler:Alicia's power]], Gallia would have most certainly lost."
--->'''Welkin:''' "I still can't..."

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--->'''Welkin:''' -->'''Welkin:''' "Tell me why... why did you have to [[spoiler:shoot her]]?!"
--->'''Faldio:''' -->'''Faldio:''' "The people... Gallia needed her. Now let me ask you a question: how else do you think we could have won that battle? If not for [[spoiler:Alicia's power]], Gallia would have most certainly lost."
--->'''Welkin:''' -->'''Welkin:''' "I still can't..."
13th Oct '17 11:20:10 AM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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* In ''[[https://www.fimfiction.net/story/352700/patriots-of-equestria Patriots of Equestria]]'' by twilightsparkle3562, [[KnightTemplar Instant Justice's]] is supposed to become HeWhoFightsMonsters with his VigilanteExecution against [[BigBad Hopper]], who permanently crippled his son. However, the story kept making Hopper a HateSink (especially with his HeelFaceDoorSlam against [[AntiVillain Thumper]]) who only responded to force anyway. Princess Celestia's resulting warning that Justice's deed made Hopper a martyr to his fellow extremists out there falls flat as Hopper was already dying from wounds that the protagonists had given him earlier. Justice's actions has excessive emotional involvement, but were little different than what the good guys were forced to do.

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* In ''[[https://www.fimfiction.net/story/352700/patriots-of-equestria Patriots of Equestria]]'' by twilightsparkle3562, [[KnightTemplar Instant Justice's]] Justice]] is supposed to become HeWhoFightsMonsters with his VigilanteExecution against [[BigBad Hopper]], who permanently crippled his son. However, the story kept making Hopper a HateSink (especially with his HeelFaceDoorSlam against [[AntiVillain Thumper]]) who only responded to force anyway. Princess Celestia's resulting warning that Justice's deed made Hopper a martyr to his fellow extremists out there falls flat as Hopper was already dying from wounds that the protagonists had given him earlier. Justice's actions has excessive emotional involvement, but were little different than what the good guys were forced to do.
9th Oct '17 12:57:35 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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* In ''[[https://www.fimfiction.net/story/352700/patriots-of-equestria Patriots of Equestria]]'' by twilightsparkle3562, Instant Justice is supposed to be a HeWhoFightsMonsters KnightTemplar who ultimately crosses the MoralEventHorizon by invoking VigilanteExecution against BigBad Hopper. However, the story kept making Hopper such a {{Hate Sink}} monster (especially when he ended up invoking HeelFaceDoorSlam against his AntiVillain {{Dragon}}, Thumper) who only responded to force anyway. Furthermore, Princess Celestia's resulting warning that Justice's deed has only made Hopper a martyr to his fellow extremists out there... kind of falls flat as Hopper was already dying from wounds that the protagonists had given him earlier. Really, while Justice did have some excessive emotional involvement (his son had been permanently crippled by Hopper), he's still completely right about having done Equestria a favor.

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* In ''[[https://www.fimfiction.net/story/352700/patriots-of-equestria Patriots of Equestria]]'' by twilightsparkle3562, [[KnightTemplar Instant Justice Justice's]] is supposed to be a HeWhoFightsMonsters KnightTemplar who ultimately crosses the MoralEventHorizon by invoking become HeWhoFightsMonsters with his VigilanteExecution against BigBad Hopper. [[BigBad Hopper]], who permanently crippled his son. However, the story kept making Hopper such a {{Hate Sink}} monster HateSink (especially when he ended up invoking with his HeelFaceDoorSlam against his AntiVillain {{Dragon}}, Thumper) [[AntiVillain Thumper]]) who only responded to force anyway. Furthermore, Princess Celestia's resulting warning that Justice's deed has only made Hopper a martyr to his fellow extremists out there... kind of there falls flat as Hopper was already dying from wounds that the protagonists had given him earlier. Really, while Justice did have some Justice's actions has excessive emotional involvement (his son had been permanently crippled by Hopper), he's still completely right about having done Equestria a favor.involvement, but were little different than what the good guys were forced to do.
31st Aug '17 11:14:17 AM MBG
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** Another ridiculous 3E restriction was that Rangers could choose their own race as a "favored enemy" only if they were evil. Since intelligent humanoids can be of any alignment, there's nothing inherently evil about training to be a better hunter of your own species. Not to mention the fact that many "evil" races share a type with "good" races, so apparently, a half-orc who [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch trains to protect people from his kin]] or an elf who trains to hunt [[EvilCounterpart drow]] is always evil. There's also no restrictions against picking This was removed in 3.5 as the designers realized how stupid it was. Especially since half the bonus apply to mundane, out-of-combat skills, thus you can pick a "favored enemy" less for the combat bonus and more for the advantages given to peaceful interactions.

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** Another ridiculous 3E restriction was that Rangers could choose their own race as a "favored enemy" only if they were evil. Since intelligent humanoids can be of any alignment, there's nothing inherently evil about training to be a better hunter of your own species. Not to mention the fact that many "evil" races share a type with "good" races, so apparently, a half-orc who [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch trains to protect people from his kin]] or an elf who trains to hunt [[EvilCounterpart drow]] is always evil. There's also no restrictions against picking good outsiders, meaning that killing ''angels'' is apparently alright. This was removed in 3.5 as the designers realized how stupid it was. Especially since half the bonus apply to mundane, out-of-combat skills, thus you can pick a "favored enemy" less for the combat bonus and more for the advantages given to peaceful interactions.
31st Aug '17 11:13:31 AM MBG
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** Another ridiculous 3E restriction was that Rangers could choose their own race as a "favored enemy" only if they were evil. Since intelligent humanoids can be of any alignment, there's nothing inherently evil about training to be a better hunter of your own species. This was removed in 3.5 as the designers realized how stupid it was. Especially since half the bonus apply to mundane, out-of-combat skills, thus you can pick a "favored enemy" less for the combat bonus and more for the advantages given to peaceful interactions.

to:

** Another ridiculous 3E restriction was that Rangers could choose their own race as a "favored enemy" only if they were evil. Since intelligent humanoids can be of any alignment, there's nothing inherently evil about training to be a better hunter of your own species. Not to mention the fact that many "evil" races share a type with "good" races, so apparently, a half-orc who [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch trains to protect people from his kin]] or an elf who trains to hunt [[EvilCounterpart drow]] is always evil. There's also no restrictions against picking This was removed in 3.5 as the designers realized how stupid it was. Especially since half the bonus apply to mundane, out-of-combat skills, thus you can pick a "favored enemy" less for the combat bonus and more for the advantages given to peaceful interactions.
30th Aug '17 4:15:46 PM MBG
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* In ''Franchise/YuGiOh'', anytime a duelist sacrifices their own monster to progress their duel, they are often chastised by the heroes for being heartless of their own monsters while at the same time, Yami Yugi sacrificing his monsters for Catapault Turtle's effect is supposed to be seen as a sign of MoralEventHorizon in order to defeat Raphael. The problem is the fact Duel Monsters for all the [[SeriousBusiness intents and purposes]], is still just a game and sacrificing or tributing your monsters in English terms, is a critical part if the gameplay especially during the early era of Yugioh. Not to mention that since he couldn't attack for three turns as a result of the sword what could Yami do to pass for three turns? By the time three turns have passed, Raphael could have probably drew a winning card that could end up defeating the pharaoh, thus he has no other choice but to finish him off as soon as possible to prevent such incident from happening.

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* In ''Franchise/YuGiOh'', anytime a duelist sacrifices their own monster to progress their duel, they are often chastised by the heroes for being heartless of their own monsters while at the same time, monsters. Most famously, Yami Yugi sacrificing his monsters for Catapault Catapult Turtle's effect in order to defeat Raphael is supposed to be seen as a sign of MoralEventHorizon in order to defeat Raphael. MoralEventHorizon. The problem is the fact Duel Monsters Monsters, for all the [[SeriousBusiness intents and purposes]], is still just a game game, and sacrificing or tributing your monsters in English terms, is a critical part if of the gameplay gameplay, especially during the early era of Yugioh. era. Not to mention that since he couldn't attack for three turns as a result due to Swords of the sword Revealing Light, what else could Yami do to pass for three turns? he do? By the time three turns have passed, Raphael could have probably drew drawn a winning card that could end up defeating the pharaoh, Pharaoh, thus he has no other choice but to finish him off as soon as possible to prevent such an incident from happening.happening. And he's used Catapult Turtle several times before without it being mentioned. Hell, in his rematch with Raphael, he uses Brave Attack (a card that destroys your own monsters), and Raphael even points out that it's basically the same thing as last time, but Yami Yugi claims that this time, he's doing it because of unity or something despite the two cards being functionally identical in terms of what they do.
** And in a case of this being inverted in that same Duel, Raphael's frequent use of cards to protect his monsters, even at the cost of his Life Points, is meant to be a sign that he's an AntiVillain, whose bond with his cards is so strong that he'll ignore strategy if it means keeping them alive. In point of fact, most people will tell you that sacrificing Life Points to maintain your field is an ''excellent'' strategy. Unless you're playing a specific deck, you don't get anything out of having high or low Life Points, whereas the difference between having a given monster on the field and not having it can easily be the difference between winning and losing. Raphael's efforts to keep his monsters out of the Graveyard are a bit more atypical, but he gets something out of it (several of his cards rely on it) and it clearly works for him.
27th Aug '17 11:48:11 PM Killerikala
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Added DiffLines:

* One of the complaints about the first ''VideoGame/{{Dishonored}}'' was that the karma system was too black and white; killing a serial killer about to attack you was apparently a "bad" thing, and mercy-killing enough zombie-like beings could eventually negatively affect the ending. The second game is better about this, as each level has different theresholds about what's evil and what's not, and killing criminals affects your karma less than killing city guards.
27th Aug '17 5:24:14 PM MBG
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** By default, the game universe has Good and Evil as objective forces that can be drawn on for magic just like [[ElementalPowers Fire, Air, and so on]]. The rationalizations are... [[ValuesDissonance dicey]]. [[YourSoulIsMine Imprison Soul]], okay. [[CombatSadomasochist Sadism and Masochism]] are unfortunate to have in melee, even if the mechanical effects are useful. ...''[[PokeThePoodle Cheat]]?'' The most absurd example is a spell that does nothing but reveal when people are low on health.

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** By default, the game universe has Good and Evil as objective forces that can be drawn on for magic just like [[ElementalPowers Fire, Air, and so on]]. The rationalizations are... [[ValuesDissonance dicey]]. [[YourSoulIsMine Imprison Soul]], okay. [[CombatSadomasochist Sadism and Masochism]] are unfortunate to have in melee, even if the mechanical effects are useful. ...''[[PokeThePoodle Cheat]]?'' The most absurd example is a spell that does nothing but reveal when people are low on health. In some fairness to this one, this only has any mechanical impact on clerics, who can't cast a spell opposed to their god's alignment - presumably, CrystalDragonJesus is not interested in his priests using his powers to cheat at craps.
*** Summoning spells are a subset of this, in that it's noted that a SummonMagic is treated as an evil spell if it's used to summon an evil creature. This one is more or less BadPowersBadPeople, since a dretch demon is every bit as under your control as a celestial, and incapable of doing anything evil on its own initiative. In fact, there's a good-aligned class that's ''based around'' [[BadPowersGoodPeople summoning demons and tricking them to think you're evil]], which specifically removes the above restriction for clerics.
27th Aug '17 9:30:33 AM nombretomado
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* In the first ''VideoGame/ArTonelico'' game, some bigoted thugs are threatening the pacifistic [[ArtificialHuman reyvateil]] who runs the bar and also happens to be the best friend of one of the protagonist's possible love interests. Violence is quickly becoming imminent. The protagonist steps in and tells the thugs to back off. One of the thugs attacks the protagonist. The protagonist beats the snot out of him. Cue chewing out from the bar lady and the party, because [[BrokenAesop "violence is never the answer"]]. Apparently, he should have just taken the beating and hoped that the thugs would leave afterwards. To rub it in, the protagonist takes this lesson to heart and stupidly takes a pointless beating in its name shortly thereafter. Mercifully, these incidents are never referred to again.

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* In the first ''VideoGame/ArTonelico'' ''[[VideoGame/ArTonelicoMelodyOfElemia Ar tonelico]]'' game, some bigoted thugs are threatening the pacifistic [[ArtificialHuman reyvateil]] who runs the bar and also happens to be the best friend of one of the protagonist's possible love interests. Violence is quickly becoming imminent. The protagonist steps in and tells the thugs to back off. One of the thugs attacks the protagonist. The protagonist beats the snot out of him. Cue chewing out from the bar lady and the party, because [[BrokenAesop "violence is never the answer"]]. Apparently, he should have just taken the beating and hoped that the thugs would leave afterwards. To rub it in, the protagonist takes this lesson to heart and stupidly takes a pointless beating in its name shortly thereafter. Mercifully, these incidents are never referred to again.
26th Aug '17 12:42:39 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** This is actually worse when you consider the logical question, "''Why didn't he just ask her and let her make her own choice?''". The reason is simple: one of the [[BrokenAesop many, many]] lessons the story tries to teach is AmbitionIsEvil. If she said yes, she'd be negating the whole game's moral stance. If she said no, we wouldn't have a story at all.

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** This is actually worse when you consider the logical question, "''Why didn't he just ask her and let her make her own choice?''". The reason is simple: one of the [[BrokenAesop many, many]] lessons the story tries ''[[BrokenAesop tries]]'' to teach is AmbitionIsEvil. If she said yes, she'd be negating the whole game's moral stance. If she said no, we wouldn't have a story at all.



* During a sidequest in the original campaign of the 2002 version of ''VideoGame/{{Neverwinter Nights}}'', after most of the escapees have been either killed or allowed to get away, the remaining one, who is wanted for mass murder, kidnaps the daughter of the person who gives out the bounties and holds her for ransom, with an implication that she was raped. When you find him, he attacks, but pleads for his life if he's nearly defeated. When asked why he kidnapped the girl, he initially claims that she came with him by choice. If you decide that he's lying, a high persuasion check can get him to admit that he got her drunk. If after hearing his story you decide to kill him after all, your alignment is shifted a few point towards evil, even though your only other option is letting an unrepentant murderer walk free. It should be noted that if the player chooses the initial option to kill him during the conversation instead of choosing to hear him out, alignment isn't affected.

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* During a sidequest in the original campaign of the 2002 version of ''VideoGame/{{Neverwinter Nights}}'', ''VideoGame/NeverwinterNights'', after most of the escapees have been either killed or allowed to get away, the remaining one, who is wanted for mass murder, kidnaps the daughter of the person who gives out the bounties and holds her for ransom, with an implication that she was raped. When you find him, he attacks, but pleads for his life if he's nearly defeated. When asked why he kidnapped the girl, he initially claims that she came with him by choice. If you decide that he's lying, a high persuasion check can get him to admit that he got her drunk. If after hearing his story you decide to kill him after all, your alignment is shifted a few point towards evil, even though your only other option is letting an unrepentant murderer walk free. It should be noted that if the player chooses the initial option to kill him during the conversation instead of choosing to hear him out, alignment isn't affected.affected.
* [[PlayerCharacter Cpt. Martin Walker]] in ''VideoGame/SpecOpsTheLine'' [[TragicMistake inadvertently crosses the line]] when he [[spoiler:uses white phosphorus on enemy soldiers, horribly killing the many civilians it's revealed they were protecting in the process]]. Walker is ultimately portrayed ([[WhatTheHellHero and called out]]) as [[NeverMyFault refusing to accept his mistake]] when he claims [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no other choice]], but do to GameplayAndStorySegregation, he's right. There is no way to learn about [[spoiler:the civilians]] beforehand, and enemies will [[RespawningEnemies infinitely respawn]] until they kill you or you use [[spoiler:the white phosphorus]], so you can't defeat them without the collateral. This and the other "evil" things you do are rationalizable as self-defense, as [[ViolenceIsTheOnlyOption no peaceful alternative options exist]] [[spoiler:until the ending]]. The developers responded to the criticism by saying there is a peaceful option; stop playing the game, which is obviously not a viable option in-universe.



* On ''[[WesternAnimation/TotalDrama Total Drama Action]],'' Courtney is immediately set up as the villain because she [[TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong keeps complaining about her team]], and then later she manages to get [[BigEater Owen]] eliminated. This is apparently supposed to make us dislike her, given how everyone else jumps to his defense... but what the writers don't seem to realize is that to many fans, Owen is a CreatorsPet (and he participated in another season, despite already winning, which makes it pretty unfair), so while Courtney seemed a bit overly vindictive, it wasn't exactly all that bad. [[VillainSue Alejandro]]'s dislike of Owen in the next season may have been a similar case, though given how much Owen really ''was'' annoying Al, maybe it was more of a FandomNod. Owen does get eliminated because Courtney voted for it, but what about the other teammates? Oh, right, they voted for Courtney, even though they were told by Chris that voting her off was off-limits this time around. Their votes were negated, while Courtney's remained valid. So, the characters are all upset that Owen got voted off and blame Courtney, even though it was ''their'' fault per the stated rules.

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* On ''[[WesternAnimation/TotalDrama Total Drama Action]],'' Courtney is immediately set up as the villain because she [[TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong keeps complaining about her team]], and then later she manages to get [[BigEater Owen]] eliminated. This is apparently supposed to make us dislike her, given how everyone else jumps to his defense... but what the writers don't seem to realize is that to many fans, Owen is a CreatorsPet (and he participated in another season, despite already winning, which makes it pretty unfair), so while Courtney seemed a bit overly vindictive, it wasn't exactly all that bad. [[VillainSue Alejandro]]'s Alejandro's dislike of Owen in the next season may have been a similar case, though given how much Owen really ''was'' annoying Al, maybe it was more of a FandomNod. Owen does get eliminated because Courtney voted for it, but what about the other teammates? Oh, right, they voted for Courtney, even though they were told by Chris that voting her off was off-limits this time around. Their votes were negated, while Courtney's remained valid. So, the characters are all upset that Owen got voted off and blame Courtney, even though it was ''their'' fault per the stated rules.
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