History Main / AFoolForAClient

24th Apr '17 8:43:23 PM Fireblood
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* [[http://asianhistory.about.com/od/profilesofasianleaders/p/fmarcosbio.htm Ferdinand Marcos]] was once accused by taking part in a politically-motivated assassination. Long story short, he represented himself and won. He became the President of the Philippines before implementing martial law and becoming a dictator. He was removed from power following the People Power Revolution (also known as the EDSA revolution) in 1986.

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* [[http://asianhistory.about.com/od/profilesofasianleaders/p/fmarcosbio.htm Ferdinand Marcos]] was once accused by of taking part in a politically-motivated assassination. Long story short, he represented himself and won. He became the President of the Philippines before implementing martial law and becoming a dictator. He was removed from power following the People Power Revolution (also known as the EDSA revolution) in 1986.



* As explained above, most ''pro se'' defendants and litigants are actually arguing in good faith, and making a genuine effort to be reasonable within the standards of the law. However, an increasingly large class of people, defined as 'OPCA litigants' by Judge Rooke (in Alberta, Canada) stand before the court on their own because their antics are so outrageous that no sane lawyer would represent them. A recent and infamous example is Ryan Bundy, who [[http://wonkette.com/604979/surprise-ryan-bundy-goes-full-sovereign-citizen-declares-self-idiot-not-subject-to-your-damn-laws not only decided upon pro se representation, but subsequently claimed that he was incompetent to stand trial -- in his own words, claiming himself an idiot -- and attempted to charge the court millions of dollars for his time.]] Similar courtroom antics have led to many judges growing increasingly frustrated with ''pro se'' representation, whether warranted or not.
* Like most of his revolutionary peers, Georges Danton was a lawyer by trade and a eloquent orator to boot, so when the UsefulNotes/FrenchRevolution (or rather, Robespierre and the Committee of Public Safety) turned against him and put him in front of a KangarooCourt, Danton - who was denied counsel - was more than willing and able to handle his own defense. His death may have been pre-decided (and indeed it was) and the proceedings may be a farce, but by the Supreme Being, Georges Danton would not go down without a fight. He used any trick in the book and CourtroomAntics to get justice and sway the opinion of the spectators; he nearly got away with it, but when he demanded his right to call witnesses (which he clearly had according to letter and spirit of the law), the tribunal whose only purpose was a guilty verdict had enough and denied Danton and all other defendants the right to appear before court again. The "guilty" verdict was handed down shortly afterwards, and Danton [[OffWithHisHead had his date with Madame Guillotine]] a little after that.

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* As explained above, most ''pro se'' defendants and litigants are actually arguing in good faith, and making a genuine effort to be reasonable within the standards of the law. However, an increasingly large class of people, defined as 'OPCA litigants' by Judge Rooke (in Alberta, Canada) stand before the court on their own because their antics are so outrageous that no sane lawyer would represent them. A recent and infamous example is Ryan Bundy, who [[http://wonkette.com/604979/surprise-ryan-bundy-goes-full-sovereign-citizen-declares-self-idiot-not-subject-to-your-damn-laws not only decided upon pro se representation, but subsequently claimed that he was incompetent to stand trial -- in his own words, claiming declaring himself an idiot -- and attempted to charge the court millions of dollars for his time.]] Similar courtroom antics have led to many judges growing increasingly frustrated with ''pro se'' representation, whether warranted or not.
* Like most of his revolutionary peers, Georges Danton was a lawyer by trade and a eloquent orator to boot, so when the UsefulNotes/FrenchRevolution (or rather, Robespierre and the Committee of Public Safety) turned against him and put him in front of a KangarooCourt, Danton - who was denied counsel - was more than willing and able to handle his own defense. His death may have been pre-decided (and indeed it was) and the proceedings may be have been a farce, but by the Supreme Being, Georges Danton would not go down without a fight. He used any trick in the book and CourtroomAntics to get justice and sway the opinion of the spectators; he nearly got away with it, but when he demanded his right to call witnesses (which he clearly had according to the letter and spirit of the law), the tribunal whose only purpose was a guilty verdict had enough and denied Danton and all other defendants the right to appear before court again. The "guilty" verdict was handed down shortly afterwards, and Danton [[OffWithHisHead had his date with Madame Guillotine]] a little after that.



* James Romine of Digital Homicide represented himself in his lawsuit against [[WebVideo/{{Jimquisition}} Jim Sterling]] for the reason that he couldn't afford an attorney. A look at the details reveals exactly why getting a lawyer is heavily advised: Romine attempted to sue in the name of Digital Homicide LLC (a company cannot represent pro se, it has to have an attorney), via a court in Arizona (Jim Sterling isn't a resident of Arizona nor does he strictly speaking conduct business in the state, so the court had no jurisdiction over him) and with poorly presented arguments that fell straight into FrivolousLawsuit claiming damages of ''$10 million'' which only rose as the case went on. Romine's incompetence was to the point that in Sterling's post-mortem of the case, he notes that he and his allies' reaction to Romine's antics boiled down to 'I have no idea what he's doing'.

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* James Romine of Digital Homicide represented himself in his lawsuit against [[WebVideo/{{Jimquisition}} Jim Sterling]] for the reason that he couldn't afford an attorney. A look at the details reveals exactly why getting a lawyer is heavily advised: Romine attempted to sue in the name of Digital Homicide LLC (a company cannot represent pro se, it has to have an attorney), via a court in Arizona (Jim Sterling isn't a resident of Arizona nor does he strictly speaking conduct business in the state, so the court had no jurisdiction over him) and with poorly presented arguments that fell straight into FrivolousLawsuit FrivolousLawsuit, claiming damages of ''$10 million'' which only rose as the case went on. Romine's incompetence was to the point that in Sterling's post-mortem of the case, he notes that he and his allies' reaction to Romine's antics boiled down to 'I have no idea what he's doing'.
24th Apr '17 7:44:35 PM Fireblood
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* ''Series/BetterCallSaul'': Jimmy decides to represent himself when Chuck presses charges against him, despite being warned against it, and knowing full well the reputation doing so has. In this case at least he is a lawyer, and has done criminal cases, but even so.

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* ''Series/BetterCallSaul'': Jimmy decides to represent himself when Chuck presses charges against him, himself, despite being warned against it, it and knowing full well about the reputation doing so has. In this case at least he is a lawyer, and has done criminal cases, but even so.
24th Apr '17 7:37:06 PM Fireblood
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* ''Series/BetterCallSaul'': Jimmy decides to represent himself when Chuck presses charges against him, despite being warned against it, and knowing full well the reputation doing so has. In this case at least he is a lawyer, and has done criminal cases, but even so.
18th Apr '17 9:26:56 PM BeholdTheTheremin
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** ''VideoGame/DaiGyakutenSaiban'' has Ryuunosuke as this in the first case.

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** ''VideoGame/DaiGyakutenSaiban'' has Ryuunosuke as this in the first case. Bonus points for ''not even being a lawyer yet'' at the time.
18th Apr '17 9:24:57 PM BeholdTheTheremin
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** VideoGame/DaiGyakutenSaiban has Ryuunosuke as this in the first case.

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** VideoGame/DaiGyakutenSaiban ''VideoGame/DaiGyakutenSaiban'' has Ryuunosuke as this in the first case.
8th Apr '17 12:33:48 PM Micah
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* On ''Series/UnbreakableKimmySchmidt'', Reverend Wayne represents himself. His defense consists almost entirely of {{Courtroom Antic}}s, but since the prosecutors are even more incompetent it seems to be working out for him until Kimmy figures out how to get to him.
21st Mar '17 11:48:56 AM HeroicJay
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Almost always [[LampshadeHanging lampshaded]] by someone asking the character if he is aware of the adage. Naturally this appears quite often in [[LawProcedural Courtroom Drama]]. In comedies, the ''pro se'' character often engages in CourtroomAntics that would get him thrown into jail in RealLife, but because it is PlayedForLaughs, the character will often get away with it[[note]]A bit of Truth In Television here, as judges are usually more tolerant of irregularities from those who are appearing ''pro se'' and don't know the rules than they would be of an attorney, who should presumably know better; though it's still possible to take it way too far, and repeatedly engaging in behavior you've been warned against WILL get you jailed for contempt[[/note]]. Often involves TalkingToHimself when the character cross-examines himself. And it is almost guaranteed that, in response to the judge telling the character that he is "out of order", the character will yell back at the judge, "[[Film/AndJusticeForAll No]], ''[[Film/AndJusticeForAll you're]]'' [[Film/AndJusticeForAll out of order!]]" because apparently a lot of comedy writers are also AlPacino fans.

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Almost always [[LampshadeHanging lampshaded]] by someone asking the character if he is aware of the adage. Naturally this appears quite often in [[LawProcedural Courtroom Drama]]. In comedies, the ''pro se'' character often engages in CourtroomAntics that would get him thrown into jail in RealLife, but because it is PlayedForLaughs, the character will often get away with it[[note]]A bit of Truth In Television here, as judges are usually more tolerant of irregularities from those who are appearing ''pro se'' and don't know the rules than they would be of an attorney, who should presumably know better; though it's still possible to take it way too far, and repeatedly engaging in behavior you've been warned against WILL get you jailed for contempt[[/note]]. Often involves TalkingToHimself HoldingBothSidesOfTheConversation when the character cross-examines himself. And it is almost guaranteed that, in response to the judge telling the character that he is "out of order", the character will yell back at the judge, "[[Film/AndJusticeForAll No]], ''[[Film/AndJusticeForAll you're]]'' [[Film/AndJusticeForAll out of order!]]" because apparently a lot of comedy writers are also AlPacino fans.



* This occurs in Chapter 4 of ''VideoGame/TalesOfMonkeyIsland'', and features the question of whether the defendant is aware of the maxim, the "I am that fool!" response, the "You're out of order!" exchange, ''and'' the TalkingToHimself bit. The whole thing ends with a fistfight between the ''pro se'' lawyer and his own client.

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* This occurs in Chapter 4 of ''VideoGame/TalesOfMonkeyIsland'', and features the question of whether the defendant is aware of the maxim, the "I am that fool!" response, the "You're out of order!" exchange, ''and'' the TalkingToHimself HoldingBothSidesOfTheConversation bit. The whole thing ends with a fistfight between the ''pro se'' lawyer and his own client.
10th Mar '17 8:49:24 AM karstovich2
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* At one point in ''Webcomic/SchlockMercenary'' during the [[RealityShow HTRN]] takedown storyline, [[http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060715.html Massey resorts to this]] when speaking for the Toughs, for whom he is their legal council. While Fleetmind jurisprudence doesn't allow for lawyers to represent defendants, he was also a co-defendant in the hearing.

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* At one point in ''Webcomic/SchlockMercenary'' during the [[RealityShow HTRN]] takedown storyline, [[http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060715.html Massey resorts to this]] when speaking for the Toughs, for whom he is their legal council.counsel. While Fleetmind jurisprudence doesn't allow for lawyers to represent defendants, he was also a co-defendant in the hearing.



* Like most of his revolutionary peers, George Danton was a lawyer by trade and a eloquent orator to boot, so when the UsefulNotes/FrenchRevolution (or rather, Robespierre) turned against him and put him in front of a KangarooCourt, Danton - who was denied council - was more than willing and able to handle his own defense. His death may have been pre-decided (and indeed it was) and the proceedings may be a farce, but by the Supreme Being, George Danton would not go down without a fight. He used any trick in the book and CourtroomAntics to get justice and sway the opinion of the spectators and he would have nearly gotten away with it, but when he demanded his right to call witnesses (which he clearly had according to letter and spirit of the law) the tribunal whose only purpose was a guilty verdict had enough and denied Danton and all other defendants the right to appear before court again, so the "guilty" verdict was handed down shortly afterwards and Danton [[OffWithHisHead had a date with Madame Guillotine]] shortly afterwards.

to:

* Like most of his revolutionary peers, George Georges Danton was a lawyer by trade and a eloquent orator to boot, so when the UsefulNotes/FrenchRevolution (or rather, Robespierre) Robespierre and the Committee of Public Safety) turned against him and put him in front of a KangarooCourt, Danton - who was denied council counsel - was more than willing and able to handle his own defense. His death may have been pre-decided (and indeed it was) and the proceedings may be a farce, but by the Supreme Being, George Georges Danton would not go down without a fight. He used any trick in the book and CourtroomAntics to get justice and sway the opinion of the spectators and spectators; he would have nearly gotten got away with it, but when he demanded his right to call witnesses (which he clearly had according to letter and spirit of the law) law), the tribunal whose only purpose was a guilty verdict had enough and denied Danton and all other defendants the right to appear before court again, so the again. The "guilty" verdict was handed down shortly afterwards afterwards, and Danton [[OffWithHisHead had a his date with Madame Guillotine]] shortly afterwards.a little after that.
28th Feb '17 11:12:56 AM storymasterb
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Added DiffLines:

* James Romine of Digital Homicide represented himself in his lawsuit against [[WebVideo/{{Jimquisition}} Jim Sterling]] for the reason that he couldn't afford an attorney. A look at the details reveals exactly why getting a lawyer is heavily advised: Romine attempted to sue in the name of Digital Homicide LLC (a company cannot represent pro se, it has to have an attorney), via a court in Arizona (Jim Sterling isn't a resident of Arizona nor does he strictly speaking conduct business in the state, so the court had no jurisdiction over him) and with poorly presented arguments that fell straight into FrivolousLawsuit claiming damages of ''$10 million'' which only rose as the case went on. Romine's incompetence was to the point that in Sterling's post-mortem of the case, he notes that he and his allies' reaction to Romine's antics boiled down to 'I have no idea what he's doing'.
7th Feb '17 5:33:34 PM TheAmazingBlachman
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In general, most legal professionals consider a person going to court without the aid of an attorney to be a really bad idea, even when the litigant ''is an attorney themselves''. Not all attorneys are versed in all forms of law; how many alleged murderers does the average tax lawyer defend in their lifetime, after all? Furthermore, even if said attorney ''is'' an expert in that precise field of law, being that close to the matter at hand is a great way to lose sight of the big picture.

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In general, most legal professionals consider a person going to court without the aid of an attorney to be a really bad idea, even when the litigant ''is an attorney themselves''. Not all attorneys are versed in all forms of law; how many alleged murderers does the average tax lawyer defend in their lifetime, after all? Furthermore, even if said attorney ''is'' an expert in that precise field of law, being that close to the matter at hand is a great way to lose sight of the big picture.
picture. There is a reason why adage in full often reads as some variation of "The man who represents himself has a fool for a client ''and an ass for an attorney.''"
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