Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Literature / TheBookOfLordShang

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


''The Book of Lord Shang'' (商君书, ''Shāng Jūn Shū'') is one of the most important and well-known texts of Legalist Chinese philosophy. It was written over a period of about 100 years during the Warring States Period, lasting roughly 400 BC to 221 BC (when Qin established the first Chinese empire). Though it is traditionally attributed to Shang Yang, and he does indeed appear to have written ''part'' of it, the last few chapters refer to people and events which didn't occur until after his death.

to:

''The Book of Lord Shang'' (商君书, (商君書/商君书, ''Shāng Jūn Shū'') is one of the most important and well-known texts of Legalist Chinese philosophy. It was written over a period of about 100 years during the Warring States Period, lasting roughly 400 BC to 221 BC (when Qin established the first Chinese empire). Though it is traditionally attributed to Shang Yang, and he does indeed appear to have written ''part'' of it, the last few chapters refer to people and events which didn't occur until after his death.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


%%* WorkingClassPeopleAreMorons: The authors didn't just invoke this, they intended to ''enforce'' it.

to:

%%* * WorkingClassPeopleAreMorons: The authors didn't just invoke this, they intended to ''enforce'' it.it, by actively seeking ways to prevent "common people" from learning anything other than the practical skills of their trade. Knowledge of any kind is treated as a well-guarded secret that should only be passed to those who manage to elevate themselves by their natural cunning from their low standing.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:


* WorkingClassPeopleAreMorons: The authors didn't just invoke this, they intended to ''enforce'' it.
* WrittenByTheWinners: The reputation of Shang is mostly coloured by his opponents who survived him, and tearing apart the content of his treaty was a favourite past-time of Confucian scholars for the next ''two millennia''. This obviously affects the sort of reputation both gained over said millenia, as if the content of the treaty wasn't contentious already.

to:

* %%* WorkingClassPeopleAreMorons: The authors didn't just invoke this, they intended to ''enforce'' it.
* WrittenByTheWinners: The reputation of Shang is mostly coloured by his opponents who survived him, and tearing apart the content of his treaty was a favourite past-time of Confucian scholars for the next ''two millennia''. This obviously affects the sort of reputation both gained over said millenia, millennia, as if the content of the treaty wasn't contentious already.

Added: 166

Changed: 185

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* SillyReasonForWar: Shang advises that the army should be at war as much as possible to prevent the soldiers falling victim to such "parasites" as virtue and care for the elderly.
* SinsOfOurFathers: Since it is more important for law enforcers to obey the law than anyone else, it is advised that if they break it, then their children should be punished as well.

to:

* SillyReasonForWar: Shang advises that the army should be at war as much as possible to prevent the soldiers falling victim to such "parasites" "[[VirtueIsWeakness parasites]]" as virtue and care for the elderly.
* SinsOfOurFathers: SinsOfOurFathers:
**
Since it is more important for law enforcers to obey the law than anyone else, it is advised that if they break it, then their children should be punished as well.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* JerkassHasAPoint: While Shang's laws were [[FascistButInefficient brutal and ultimately inefficient]], he did make some good points about the virtues of meritocracy, and the need for innovation over blind adherence to old traditions. ([[TheHypocrite Though it should be noted that he wanted the people to blindly adhere to the new traditions he proposed]].) The biggest issue with his philosophy isn't so much that he was ''wrong'' per se, but rather that it is completely inapplicable to any country that isn't embroiled in constant warfare and internal decay (or is simply big).
* MachiavelliWasWrong: The book as a whole, and to some extent Legalism, faced a reality check of just how in practice the system works when imposed to all of China. Namely - a FullCircleRevolution.

to:

* JerkassHasAPoint: While Shang's laws were [[FascistButInefficient brutal and ultimately inefficient]], he did make some good points about the virtues of meritocracy, and the need for innovation over blind adherence to old traditions. ([[TheHypocrite ([[{{Hypocrite}} Though it should be noted that he wanted the people to blindly adhere to the new traditions he proposed]].) The biggest issue with his philosophy isn't so much that he was ''wrong'' per se, but rather that it is completely inapplicable to any country that isn't embroiled in constant warfare and internal decay (or is simply big).
* MachiavelliWasWrong: The book as a whole, and to some extent Legalism, faced a reality check of just how in practice the system works when imposed to all of China. Namely - Namely, a FullCircleRevolution.

Added: 704

Changed: 704

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* DisproportionateRetribution: Intended to make the penalties of lesser crimes so horrible that no one would even contemplate greater crimes. Backfired when tried by the Qin dynasty, where it just created a huge mass of men who suddenly had nothing to lose in backing a rebellion. [[AllCrimesAreEqual There isn't really a way to top gruesome death as a punishment.]]

to:

* DisproportionateRetribution: Intended to make the penalties of lesser crimes so horrible that no one would even contemplate greater crimes. Backfired when tried by the Qin dynasty, where it just created a huge mass of men who suddenly had nothing to lose in backing a rebellion. [[AllCrimesAreEqual There isn't really a way to top gruesome death as a punishment.]]punishment]].



* HoistByHisOwnPetard: Shang Yang met his end under a punishment that he himself formulated into Qin law, one reserved for law enforcers who broke the law themselves, when he ended up being accused of treason by the new king of Qin (in revenge for the abuse Shang heaped on King Huiwen and his tutor back when King Huiwen was still the heir to his father's dukedom) and Shang and his entire family were sentenced to death. And even better, when he tried to hide out in a hotel to escape the above fate, he was refused, as the strict laws he had enacted in Qin while in power made it illegal for a hotel owner to admit a guest without proper identification. He was later caught, followed by drawing and quartering by chariot.

to:

* HoistByHisOwnPetard: HoistByHisOwnPetard:
**
Shang Yang met his end under a punishment that he himself formulated into Qin law, one reserved for law enforcers who broke the law themselves, when he ended up being accused of treason by the new king of Qin (in revenge for the abuse Shang heaped on King Huiwen and his tutor back when King Huiwen was still the heir to his father's dukedom) and Shang and his entire family were sentenced to death. And even better, when he tried to hide out in a hotel to escape the above fate, he was refused, as the strict laws he had enacted in Qin while in power made it illegal for a hotel owner to admit a guest without proper identification. He was later caught, followed by drawing and quartering by chariot.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* HobbesWasRight: Shang was a firm believer in the notion that people were bastards that could only be kept in line with an iron hand. Ironically, he was executed over personal and petty grudge the new king had against him.

to:

* HobbesWasRight: Shang was a firm believer in the notion that people were bastards that could only be kept in line with an iron hand. Ironically, he was executed over personal and petty grudge grudges the new king had against him.



* JerkassHasAPoint: While Shang's laws were [[FascistButInefficient brutal and ultimately inefficient]], he did make some good points about the virtues of meritocracy, and the need for innovation over blind adherence to old traditions. ([[TheHypocrite Though it should be noted that he wanted the people to blindly adhere to the new traditions he proposed]].) The biggest issue with his philosophy isn't so much that he was ''wrong'' per se, but rather that it is completely inapplicable to any country that isn't embroiled in constant warfare and internal decay.

to:

* JerkassHasAPoint: While Shang's laws were [[FascistButInefficient brutal and ultimately inefficient]], he did make some good points about the virtues of meritocracy, and the need for innovation over blind adherence to old traditions. ([[TheHypocrite Though it should be noted that he wanted the people to blindly adhere to the new traditions he proposed]].) The biggest issue with his philosophy isn't so much that he was ''wrong'' per se, but rather that it is completely inapplicable to any country that isn't embroiled in constant warfare and internal decay.decay (or is simply big).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* RoyalsWhoActuallyDoSomething: The extent of meritocracy Lord Sheng suggested means that the ruler might be hereditary, but he sure as hell should be a proactive politician, good manager and supreme commander of his armies (but maybe not a FrontlineGeneral). This is in ''sharp'' contrast with both Daoism and Confucianism, where the ruler should merely ''exist'' and let things flow on their own in accordance with the concept of ''wu wei''. Given how Qin turned from a fringe, frontier backwater to the unifier of China within ''a single century'' might have something to do with this sort of mindset.

to:

* RoyalsWhoActuallyDoSomething: The extent of meritocracy Lord Sheng Shang suggested means that the ruler might be hereditary, but he sure as hell should be a proactive politician, good manager and supreme commander of his armies (but maybe not a FrontlineGeneral). This is in ''sharp'' contrast with both Daoism and Confucianism, where the ruler should merely ''exist'' and let things flow on their own in accordance with the concept of ''wu wei''. Given how Qin turned from a fringe, frontier backwater to the unifier of China within ''a single century'' might have something to do with this sort of mindset.

Added: 604

Changed: 656

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* RoyalsWhoActuallyDoSomething: The extent of meritocracy Lord Sheng suggested means that the ruler might be hereditary, but he sure as hell should be a proactive politician, good manager and supreme commander of his armies (but maybe not a FrontlineGeneral). This is in ''sharp'' contrast with both Daoism and Confucianism, where the ruler should merely ''exist'' and let things flow on their own in accordance with the concept of wu wei. Given how Qin turned from a fringe, frontier backwater to the unifier of China within ''a single century'' might have something to do with this sort of mindset.

to:

*ThePeterPrinciple: Legalism as espoused by the treaty worked well when implemented on a limited scale (i.e. when Qin was still just Qin), but when scaled up and expanded to cover the entire newly forged empire, the system totally broke down.
* RoyalsWhoActuallyDoSomething: The extent of meritocracy Lord Sheng suggested means that the ruler might be hereditary, but he sure as hell should be a proactive politician, good manager and supreme commander of his armies (but maybe not a FrontlineGeneral). This is in ''sharp'' contrast with both Daoism and Confucianism, where the ruler should merely ''exist'' and let things flow on their own in accordance with the concept of wu wei.''wu wei''. Given how Qin turned from a fringe, frontier backwater to the unifier of China within ''a single century'' might have something to do with this sort of mindset.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


''The Book of Lord Shang'' (商君书, ''Shāng Jūn Shū'') is one of the most important and well-known texts of Legalist Chinese philosophy. It was written over a period of about 100 years during the Warring States Period, lasting roughly 400 BC to 200 BC. Though it is traditionally attributed to Shang Yang, and he does indeed appear to have written ''part'' of it, the last few chapters refer to people and events which didn't occur until after his death.

to:

''The Book of Lord Shang'' (商君书, ''Shāng Jūn Shū'') is one of the most important and well-known texts of Legalist Chinese philosophy. It was written over a period of about 100 years during the Warring States Period, lasting roughly 400 BC to 200 BC.221 BC (when Qin established the first Chinese empire). Though it is traditionally attributed to Shang Yang, and he does indeed appear to have written ''part'' of it, the last few chapters refer to people and events which didn't occur until after his death.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* RoyalsWhoActuallyDoSomething: The extent of meritocracy Lord Sheng suggested means that the ruler might be hereditary, but he sure as hell should be a proactive politician, good manager and supreme commander of his armies (but maybe not a FrontlineGeneral). This is in ''sharp'' contrast with both Daoism and Confucianism, where the ruler should merely ''exist'' and let things flow on their own in accordance with the concept wu wei. Given how Qin turned from a fringe, frontier backwater to the unifier of China within ''a single century'' might have something to do with this sort of mindset.

to:

* RoyalsWhoActuallyDoSomething: The extent of meritocracy Lord Sheng suggested means that the ruler might be hereditary, but he sure as hell should be a proactive politician, good manager and supreme commander of his armies (but maybe not a FrontlineGeneral). This is in ''sharp'' contrast with both Daoism and Confucianism, where the ruler should merely ''exist'' and let things flow on their own in accordance with the concept of wu wei. Given how Qin turned from a fringe, frontier backwater to the unifier of China within ''a single century'' might have something to do with this sort of mindset.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* BadassBureaucrat: You need [[VastBureaucracy a whole lot of those]] to keep enforcing all the orders and laws Lord Shang propose, and the text constantly stress out the importance of the merit, rather than birth or connections as the way to select those. However, as history have shown, they very quickly turn into {{Obstructive Bureaucrat}}s when they no longer have to whip people into either military mobilisation or at least some PointlessCivicProject.

to:

* BadassBureaucrat: You need [[VastBureaucracy a whole lot of those]] to keep enforcing all the orders and laws Lord Shang propose, proposes, and the text constantly stress stresses out the importance of the merit, rather than birth or connections as the way to select those. However, as history have shown, they very quickly turn into {{Obstructive Bureaucrat}}s when they no longer have to whip people into either military mobilisation or at least some PointlessCivicProject.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* BadassBureaucrat: You need [[VastBureaucracy a whole lot of those]] to keep enforcing all the orders and laws Lord Shang propose, and the text constantly stress out the importance of the merit, rather than birth or connections as the way to select those. However, as history have shown, they very quickly turn into {{Obstructive Bureaucrat}}s when they no longer have to whip people into either military mobilisation or at least some PointlessCivicProject.


Added DiffLines:

* SillyRabbitIdealismIsForKids: The treaty proposes a harsh, restrictive society ruled by fear and discipline, both achieved with a hefty use of DisproportionateRetribution, while portraying people as corrupt, lazy and scheming whenever they aren't under someone's boot. It also portrays basic humane behaviours like compassion or remorse as wasteful weaknesses that should be rooted out, as they stand in the way of effectively following orders.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* DependingUponTheUndependable: While it might seem obvious from a modern perspective, one of the novel things proposed by Lord Shang was to stop doing this. If someone is incompetent, sack them, no matter who they are, what's their lineage or what kind of favour got them into their station in the first place.


Added DiffLines:

* {{Nepotism}}. [[DefiedTrope Nope]]. Large sections of the treaty are dedicated to portraying it as the worst thing that can happen to any country and just how much it complicates running it when you have to deal with people who got their posts simply due to inheriting them rather than being in any way qualified. The impact of this logic was so strong, it left a permanent mark on other Chinese schools of philosophy and eventually on China itself.
* RoyalsWhoActuallyDoSomething: The extent of meritocracy Lord Sheng suggested means that the ruler might be hereditary, but he sure as hell should be a proactive politician, good manager and supreme commander of his armies (but maybe not a FrontlineGeneral). This is in ''sharp'' contrast with both Daoism and Confucianism, where the ruler should merely ''exist'' and let things flow on their own in accordance with the concept wu wei. Given how Qin turned from a fringe, frontier backwater to the unifier of China within ''a single century'' might have something to do with this sort of mindset.

Added: 771

Changed: 376

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* CallToAgriculture: Very literally so. If for any reason soldiers aren't fighting in some war (and the book is written in a ForeverWar mindset), they should be turned into farmers to both decrease the costs of maintaining the army ''and'' create a food surplus for the next war. This also includes any kind of garrison that isn't currently mobilised. The ideal subject is a farmer-soldier (in that exact order), who works hard and follows orders, never asking questions. This is probably the only thing from the treaty that survived the test of time, as [[RepressiveButEfficient  Qin repeatedly managed to increase the size of their economy, farmland and agriculture output by applying this principle]] and instantly imposing it on every piece of land they've conquered.



* MachiavelliWasWrong: The book as a whole, and to some extent Legalism, faced a reality check of just how in practice the system works when imposed to all of China - a FullCircleRevolution.

to:

* MachiavelliWasWrong: The book as a whole, and to some extent Legalism, faced a reality check of just how in practice the system works when imposed to all of China China. Namely - a FullCircleRevolution.



* WrittenByTheWinners: The reputation of Shang is mostly coloured by his opponents who survived him, and tearing apart the content of his treaty was a favourite past-time of Confucian scholars for the next ''two millennia''. This obviously affects the sort of reputation both gained over said millenia.
* YesMan: Repeatedly warned against.

to:

* WrittenByTheWinners: The reputation of Shang is mostly coloured by his opponents who survived him, and tearing apart the content of his treaty was a favourite past-time of Confucian scholars for the next ''two millennia''. This obviously affects the sort of reputation both gained over said millenia.
millenia, as if the content of the treaty wasn't contentious already.
* YesMan: Repeatedly warned against.
against. This does create a significant dissonance, as on one hand, everyone should display both blind obedience (thus be the very Yes-Men the treaty warns against) ''and'' at the same time offer critique to any kind of bad ideas of their superiors, in the hopes they won't be punished for disobeying a direct order.

Top