History Headscratchers / WerewolfTheApocalypse

24th Jul '17 8:27:05 AM Nopperabo
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[[folder:No metis with rickets?]]

* The Black Spiral Dancers raise their metis children in underground hives. Metis children generally do not venture out to the surface (and get exposure to sunlight) until after their first change. Shouldn't all those Black Spiral metis children have rickets from being raised in a dark environment?

[[/folder]]
15th Jun '17 12:54:56 AM Shaoken
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** Spirits may be preventing her from getting radiation sickness to keep her at her strongest.




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** [[HonorBeforeReason Because that would be dishonourable.]] Sure the pragmatic route would be the better one but the Garou all throughout history have repeatedly fallen into the trap of taking the honourable action (by their perspective) rather than the pragmatic one.
4th Apr '17 7:31:17 AM SpectralTime
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** Because ruining the world is easy and fixing it is hard.
20th Mar '17 9:16:23 AM Foxtrot
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**Also writers operating on old, out of date information/beliefs, one of which was that coyotes are solitary animals, as opposed to wolves (who were once believed to run in ridiculously large packs.)



**As for scary-looking, any Black Spiral that is mentally competent enough to do a normal-looking job amongst normals probably isn't going to look very abnormal, either. Also keep in mind modern sensibilities will probably make most people think twice, and ignore any initial gut feeling they might have had.



** It has to do with the intertwined nature of Weaver and Wyrm. The Weaver is actually the Wyrm's real target, and Gaia is kind of a casualty in this (and of course, it's misinterpreted by the common Garou as the Wyrm attacking Gaia, with the Weaver as an incidental victim/sometimes minor problem. Book of the Weaver was not meant to alter the common knowledge of Garou, as it was written by three scholars that no one pays much attention to for being .. oddballs.) And because the Wyrm is trapped in web's of the Weaver's own devise, it's easier for him to act through/attack the Weaver's most important and cherised agents themselves - humans, the adopted children of the Weaver. To corrupt the Weaver's own minions and use them against Her (as well as Gaia or anyone else who opposes him)is just icing on the revenge-madness cake.

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** It has to do with the intertwined nature of Weaver and Wyrm. The Weaver is actually the Wyrm's real target, and Gaia is kind of a casualty in this (and of course, it's misinterpreted by the common Garou as the Wyrm attacking Gaia, with the Weaver as an incidental victim/sometimes minor problem. Book of the Weaver was not meant to alter the common knowledge of Garou, as it was written by three scholars that no one pays much attention to for being .. oddballs.) And because the Wyrm is trapped in web's webs of the Weaver's own devise, it's easier for him to act through/attack the Weaver's most important and cherised cherished agents themselves - humans, the adopted children of the Weaver. To corrupt the Weaver's own minions and use them against Her (as well as Gaia or anyone else who opposes him)is him) is just icing on the revenge-madness cake.
22nd Feb '17 9:58:06 AM Nopperabo
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[[folder:Just shoot Zhyzhak!]]

* Why does King Albrecht seek to defeat Zhyzhak in hand-to-hand combat, at which she excels? Why not arrange for a Gaia Garou sniper to shoot Zhyzhak from a safe distance with a silver bullet? It would result in far fewer Gaia Garou casualties than traditional combat.

[[/folder]]
15th Feb '17 8:32:26 AM Nopperabo
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* ''Apocalypse: Time of Judgment'' contains several scenarios in which a Gaia Garou tribe falls to the Wyrm. In several scenarios, these Wyrm-tainted Garou pull off amazing feats of death and destruction. For example, the Widows (formerly the Black Furies) attack technology hubs, hurling the world back into a circa-1900 level of technological development. The Plague Rats (formerly the Bone Gnawers) trigger deadly epidemics across the globe. The Red Talons manage to locate, communicate with, and unleash buried methane-spirits that throw the biosphere into chaos. None of these tribes had anywhere ''near'' the power or numbers to pull off these feats when they served Gaia, so how did they suddenly become so powerful after falling to the Wyrm? The Wyrm's patronage alone can't explain it, since the Black Spiral Dancers had more substantial numbers and served the Wyrm for far longer than any of the fallen tribes, but never demonstrated such levels of power.

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* ''Apocalypse: Time of Judgment'' contains several scenarios in which a Gaia Garou tribe falls to the Wyrm. In several scenarios, these Wyrm-tainted Garou pull off amazing feats of death and destruction. For example, the Widows (formerly the Black Furies) attack technology hubs, hurling the world back into a circa-1900 level of technological development. The Plague Rats (formerly the Bone Gnawers) trigger deadly epidemics across the globe. The Red Talons manage to locate, communicate with, and unleash buried methane-spirits that throw the biosphere into chaos. None of these tribes had anywhere ''near'' the power or numbers to pull off these similar large-scale feats when they served Gaia, so how did they suddenly become so powerful after falling to the Wyrm? The Wyrm's patronage alone can't explain it, since the Black Spiral Dancers had more substantial numbers and served the Wyrm for far longer than any of the fallen tribes, but never demonstrated such levels of power.
15th Feb '17 8:31:20 AM Nopperabo
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! Gaia Garou



[[folder: Why Do Black Spiral Dancers Have Lunar Auspices?]]
* Black Spiral Dancer Garou have lunar auspices like their Gaian counterparts. Luna is Gaia's sister and ally, so why does she still exert her influence over Garou who serve the Wyrm? One would think that Luna would withhold her blessing from a faction of Garou who are waging war on Gaia.
** To boot, Luna withholds her blessing from the Nuwisha out of pique over an ancient insult. Why would she withhold her blessing from the Nuwisha, who serve Gaia, but still exert influence over the Wyrm-tainted Black Spiral Dancers?
*** Probably because Luna doesn't have the power to distinquish between the two, but can for the Nuwisha since they're a different changing breed.
*** Also, the Wyrm might block Luna from removing that power from its servants, since it definitely outranks her.
[[/folder]]

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[[folder: Why Do Black Spiral Dancers Have Lunar Auspices?]]
* Black Spiral Dancer Garou have lunar auspices like their Gaian counterparts. Luna is Gaia's sister and ally, so why does she still exert her influence over Garou who serve the Wyrm? One would think that Luna would withhold her blessing from a faction of Garou who are waging war on Gaia.
** To boot, Luna withholds her blessing from the Nuwisha out of pique over an ancient insult. Why would she withhold her blessing from the Nuwisha, who serve Gaia, but still exert influence over the Wyrm-tainted Black Spiral Dancers?
*** Probably because Luna doesn't have the power to distinquish between the two, but can for the Nuwisha since they're a different changing breed.
*** Also, the Wyrm might block Luna from removing that power from its servants, since it definitely outranks her.
[[/folder]]



[[folder: Garou/Fera Offspring]]
* We know that the mating of a Garou and their kinfolk partner results in either kinfolk or Garou offspring. We know that the mating of two Garou results in metis offspring. What happens if a Garou reproduces with one of the Fera? Is the resulting offspring kinfolk of both breeds? Or some kind of hybrid creature, such as a were-wolfraven or were-wolfrat? If so, do the Garou tribes and Fera have any membership protocol for mixed kinfolk or mixed race supernatural creatures?
** There is no such thing as shifter hybrids. If the mother is a Lupus-breed Garou or the equivalent for other changing breeds, the offspring is ''always'' that changing breed or kinfolk. If the mother is Homid, it can go either way, with the scale tipping towards whoever has higher Pure Breed. But the kid is always a shifter or kinfolk of one breed or the other.
*** Indeed - Gaia doesn't burden her children with two tasks, she only asks one. And what breed one is would mostly be spiritual, just as it was for the Bunyip.
** Some books flirt with the idea of mixed breed beings. For example, Oisin Mac Gaelach's story in ''Garou Saga'' describes a man of both Garou and Corax ancestry. The first edition Nuwisha breedbook notes that wolf and coyote breeding produced red wolves, so it's plausible that mixed Garou/Nuwisha kinfolk exist in the World of Darkness.

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[[folder: Garou/Fera Offspring]]
Black Furies and Mistreated Female Kinfolk]]
* We know ''Kinfolk'' states that the mating of a some homid Garou and men mistreat their kinfolk partner results in either kinfolk or Garou offspring. We know that the mating of two Garou results in metis offspring. What happens if a Garou reproduces with one of the Fera? Is the resulting offspring kinfolk of both breeds? Or some kind of hybrid creature, such as a were-wolfraven or were-wolfrat? If so, do the Garou tribes and Fera have any membership protocol for mixed kinfolk or mixed race supernatural creatures?
** There is no such thing as shifter hybrids. If the mother is a Lupus-breed Garou or the equivalent for other changing breeds, the offspring is ''always'' that changing breed or kinfolk. If the mother is Homid, it can go either way, with the scale tipping towards whoever has higher Pure Breed. But the kid is always a shifter or kinfolk of one breed or the other.
*** Indeed - Gaia doesn't burden her children with two tasks, she only asks one. And what breed one is would mostly be spiritual, just as it was for the Bunyip.
** Some books flirt with the idea of mixed breed beings. For example, Oisin Mac Gaelach's story in ''Garou Saga'' describes a man of both Garou and Corax ancestry. The first edition Nuwisha breedbook notes that wolf and coyote
wives, subjecting them to forced breeding produced red wolves, so it's plausible that mixed Garou/Nuwisha and domestic abuse. However, the Black Fury tribe is conspicuously passive about this problem, despite treating their own female kinfolk exist in well. Since the World Black Furies' tribal laws forbid them from turning a blind eye to violence against women, aren't they bound by duty to protect these women and avenge their mistreatment?
** IIRC, more than a few do call out fellow Garou over outright abuse and spirit off mistreated Kinfolk, however in terms
of Darkness.the [[MandatoryMotherhood Breed For The Sake Of Gaia]] part the Furies hold to that themselves.



[[folder: How Do Hives Stay Hidden?]]
* How do Black Spiral Dancer hives stay hidden from humans and Gaia Garou? Aren't observers going to notice a lot of scary-looking people and wolves coming out of a cavern entrance? Aren't they going to notice said scary-looking people transporting food, weapons, and other supplies to a cavern entrance? Wouldn't balefire and strange noises coming from hives make observers suspicious? Even if hive entrances are tucked away in remote locations, ''someone'' is going to notice all this.
** Spirals may be insane but they're not stupid enough to avoid such simple measures as investing in acoustics to stop humans from investigating and discrete entrances so nobody notices the supplies (weapons being irrelevant since they're already nine-feet-tall mobile death machines), the same way Gaian Garou hide urban caerns. A hive in a city is going to have its entrance hidden in places humans don't frequent or inside buildings, so even if your average human sees someone moving boxes into a building he's not going to think twice about what's going on in there compared to another other building in the city, and sound is going to have a hard time escaping to street-level anyway. For a rural Hive, it's far enough away from any population centre that your average human who gets close is going to be on their own and easy to grab and take back as that night's dinner/soul-raped into getting a Bane and sent off to fight for the Wyrm. As for Gaian Garou, they are constantly outnumbered by the Spirals who have no issue with Metis and any Gaian Garou who get too close will get ambushed and either get killed, converted or turned into Brood Mares to make more Metis to further advance their numbers advantage. And that's assuming they can locate the general area of the hive from the Wyrm's efforts to spread its corruption everywhere.
** Just think about cartel compounds in bad neighborhoods, or fundamentalist militia men out in the woods. We have those in the real world, and they get away with a lot. Add in crappier normals and scarier bad guys, and it's easy to see. Both these groups usually get away with what they do by being just scary enough that people worry what MIGHT happen if they confront them, but not so obviously scary that people know what's going to happen (since then, they would call the authorities).

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[[folder: How Do Hives Stay Hidden?]]
* How do Black Spiral Dancer hives stay hidden

[[folder:Genetic bottlenecks]]
Several Garou tribes are picky about their breeding partners, choosing mates
from very small pools of humans. For example, the Silver Fangs only breed with humans of royal blood. The Get of Fenris, Uktena, and Gaia Garou? Aren't observers going to notice a lot of scary-looking Wendigo only breed with people from certain racial and ethnic groups.

Some tribes have extremely small gene pools of Garou and kinfolk. The Stargazers only have a few hundred Garou members worldwide. The Red Talons are a small tribe due to habitat loss and an ever-shrinking pool of
wolves coming out of a cavern entrance? Aren't with whom they going to notice said scary-looking people transporting food, weapons, and other supplies to a cavern entrance? Wouldn't balefire and strange noises coming from hives make observers suspicious? Even if hive entrances can breed.

Other tribes have small gene pools because they
are tucked away very selective about which Garou stay in remote locations, ''someone'' is going to notice all this.
** Spirals may be insane but they're not stupid
the tribe. For example, the Get of Fenris exclude members who aren't strong enough to avoid such simple measures as investing in acoustics to stop humans from investigating and discrete entrances so nobody notices the supplies (weapons being irrelevant since they're already nine-feet-tall mobile death machines), the same way Gaian Garou hide urban caerns. A hive in a city is going to have its entrance hidden in places humans don't frequent or inside buildings, so even if your average human sees someone moving boxes into a building he's not going to think twice about what's going on in there compared to another other building in the city, and sound is going to have a hard time escaping to street-level anyway. For a rural Hive, it's far enough away from any population centre that your average human who gets close is going to be on meet their own and easy to grab and take back as standards (and, they send cubs through brutal Rites of Passage that night's dinner/soul-raped into getting a Bane and sent off to fight for the Wyrm. As for Gaian Garou, they are constantly outnumbered by the Spirals who have no issue with Metis and any Gaian Garou who get too close will get ambushed and either get killed, converted or turned into Brood Mares to make more Metis to further advance their result in high numbers advantage. And that's assuming they can locate of cub deaths). The Black Furies send their Garou sons to other tribes.

How on earth do these tribes remain genetically viable? The lack of genetic diversity in these tribes should create [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect founder effects]] and concentrate genetic defects in their offspring. Shouldn't
the general area of the hive from the Wyrm's efforts to spread its corruption everywhere.
aforementioned tribes be ''massively'' inbred by now?
** Just think about cartel compounds in bad neighborhoods, or fundamentalist militia men out in the woods. We have those in the real world, and they get away with a lot. Add in crappier normals and scarier bad guys, They are and it's easy why the Silver Fangs are failing. Indeed, all of the tribes are failing but the Black Spiral Dancers due to see. Both these groups usually get away with what the excessive amount of in-breeding, stupid practices, and constant violence. The only reason they've lasted as long as they do by being just scary enough that people worry what MIGHT happen if they confront them, but not so obviously scary that people know what's going to happen (since then, they would call have is Kinfolk marry regular humans all the authorities).time.



[[folder: Why Does the Wyrm Focus on Gaia?]]
* Write-ups on the planetary Incarna suggest that (with the exception of Rorg's realm) the Wyrm has largely left the other planets alone. Why has the Wyrm focuses so much of its efforts on Gaia while ignoring the other planets? It can't be soley because of Gaia's richness of life, because Tambiyah's realm (Venus) is lush and verdant in the Umbra, for instance.
** Maybe it doesn't want to fight a war on multiple fronts?
** First off; Gaia is not the planetary Incarna of Earth, Eshtarra is (the exact relationship between Gaia and Eshtarra is complicated). But basically Gaia is the absolute top of the totem pole, the Wyrm cannot suceed so long as Gaia is still alive. Leaving Gaia/Eshtarra to attack anyone else would mean losing your foothold on Earth and push the Wyrm's victory further back.
*** The Umbral version of Venus is basically an idealization based on what could-have-been and human imagination of what they thought Venus was, before the Russian landers. Earth is the planet with actual life on it at the moment. Also keep in mind that most Garou are NOT scholars, whether initially raised as humans or not, and in their simple, tribal, myth-loving minds, Gaia basically is the classic Earth Mother (with an emphasis on the Life aspect, as well as representing the planet as a physical object.)

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! Fera

[[folder: Why Does the Wyrm Focus on Gaia?]]
Garou/Fera Offspring]]
* Write-ups on the planetary Incarna suggest We know that (with the exception mating of Rorg's realm) a Garou and their kinfolk partner results in either kinfolk or Garou offspring. We know that the Wyrm has largely left mating of two Garou results in metis offspring. What happens if a Garou reproduces with one of the Fera? Is the resulting offspring kinfolk of both breeds? Or some kind of hybrid creature, such as a were-wolfraven or were-wolfrat? If so, do the Garou tribes and Fera have any membership protocol for mixed kinfolk or mixed race supernatural creatures?
** There is no such thing as shifter hybrids. If the mother is a Lupus-breed Garou or the equivalent for
other planets alone. Why changing breeds, the offspring is ''always'' that changing breed or kinfolk. If the mother is Homid, it can go either way, with the scale tipping towards whoever has higher Pure Breed. But the Wyrm focuses so much kid is always a shifter or kinfolk of its efforts on one breed or the other.
*** Indeed -
Gaia while ignoring the other planets? It can't be soley because of Gaia's richness of life, because Tambiyah's realm (Venus) is lush and verdant in the Umbra, for instance.
** Maybe it
doesn't want to fight a war on multiple fronts?
** First off; Gaia
burden her children with two tasks, she only asks one. And what breed one is not the planetary Incarna of Earth, Eshtarra is (the exact relationship between Gaia and Eshtarra is complicated). But basically Gaia is the absolute top of the totem pole, the Wyrm cannot suceed so long as Gaia is still alive. Leaving Gaia/Eshtarra to attack anyone else would mean losing your foothold on Earth and push mostly be spiritual, just as it was for the Wyrm's victory further back.
*** The Umbral version of Venus is basically an idealization based on what could-have-been and human imagination of what they thought Venus was, before the Russian landers. Earth is the planet
Bunyip.
** Some books flirt
with actual life on it at the moment. Also keep idea of mixed breed beings. For example, Oisin Mac Gaelach's story in mind that most ''Garou Saga'' describes a man of both Garou are NOT scholars, whether initially raised as humans or not, and Corax ancestry. The first edition Nuwisha breedbook notes that wolf and coyote breeding produced red wolves, so it's plausible that mixed Garou/Nuwisha kinfolk exist in their simple, tribal, myth-loving minds, Gaia basically is the classic Earth Mother (with an emphasis on the Life aspect, as well as representing the planet as a physical object.)World of Darkness.



[[folder: Why Is the Wyld Doing the Wyrm's Work?]]
* The Wyld is the primal force of creation and change, whereas the Wyrm was the force of destruction and death (at least before it went insane). Why then do so many Wyld-aligned races focus on death and destruction? For example, the Red Talons are ruthless killers, and some of the more hardline Talons would like to see humanity wiped out. The Rokea are also reknown as killers. The Ratkin's original purpose was to kill excess humans. Why do Wyld-oriented creatures have such an affinity for death and destruction, which is technically part of the the Wyrm's portfolio?
** The Wyld is the creative and changing force of the Triat, but it's also reflected in and tied with untamed nature, which tends to be pretty violent itself. And the destructive allies of the Wyld tend to be more destructive in a "natural" sense of predation, population control, etc. than the "maintaining the cosmic balance and destroying that which is flawed and has no place" sense that the Wyrm once presided over or the "wanton cruelty, torture, and random acts of violence" of the modern Wyrm. Granted, Red Talons at least have been descending more and more into the latter, but it's explicitly stated that they're in danger of falling to the Wyrm because of this. On top of that, humanity -- particularly post-industrial, Technocracy-influenced humanity -- spreads the influence of the Weaver, which the Wyld has a vested interest in stopping, even if it means stepping outside its intended role.

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[[folder: Why Is Nuwisha packs]]
* In
the Wyld Doing wild, coyotes live in small family packs. In older editions of ''Werewolf: The Apocalypse'', the Wyrm's Work?]]
* The Wyld is
Nuwisha do not organize themselves into packs, but rather operate independently. Since the primal force of creation and change, whereas the Wyrm was the force of destruction and death (at least before it went insane). Why then do so many Wyld-aligned races focus on death and destruction? For example, the Red Talons are ruthless killers, and some of the more hardline Talons would like to see humanity wiped out. The Rokea are also reknown as killers. The Ratkin's original purpose was to kill excess humans. Why do Wyld-oriented creatures have such an affinity for death and destruction, which is technically part of the the Wyrm's portfolio?
** The Wyld is the creative and
other changing force of breeds reflect the Triat, but it's also reflected in and tied with untamed nature, which tends to be pretty violent itself. And behaviors of their animal cousins, why don't the destructive allies of Nuwisha operate in packs like the Wyld tend to be more destructive in a "natural" sense of predation, population control, etc. than the "maintaining the cosmic balance and destroying that which is flawed and has no place" sense that the Wyrm once presided over or the "wanton cruelty, torture, and random acts of violence" of the modern Wyrm. Granted, Red Talons at least have been descending more and more into the latter, but it's explicitly stated that they're in danger of falling to the Wyrm because of this. On top of that, humanity -- particularly post-industrial, Technocracy-influenced humanity -- spreads the influence of the Weaver, which the Wyld has a vested interest in stopping, even if Garou?
** Because Coyote thought
it means stepping outside its intended role.was funny.



[[folder: Wyrm servants are okay with a massive Veil breach?]]
* ''Chronicles of the Black Labyrinth'' was compiled by Frater I.I. and published for public consumption in-universe. The book contains a wealth of information on the Black Spiral Dancers and Seventh Generation, who normally do their utmost to stay hidden. Why haven't the Black Spiral Dancers torn Frater I.I. to shreds for such a massive Veil breach? For that matter, why hasn't the Seventh Generation punished Frater I.I. for releasing information about their history and rites?
** You can't kill someone you can't find. With enough preparations he could keep himself hidden from all but the most dedicated hunters. As for the Seventh Generation, they had much more pressing issues at the time in the form of Jonas Albrecht and company looking to rip them to shreds.

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[[folder: Ananasa's opal prison]]

* How is it that ancient Garou were able to crack the opal containment cell holding Ananasa? Neither [[PhysicalGod Ananasa]] nor the [[EldritchAbomination Wyrm]] were able to break the opal open, so if two powerful deities couldn't damage it, how could a group of Garou?
** Also, when the Garou cracked the opal, it allowed Ananasa to communicate with distant Ananasi. However, the Wyrm's corrupution still can't seep into the opal. How is it that Ananasa's power can escape the opal, but the energy of a much more powerful deity can't breach it?
*** The
Wyrm servants are okay with doesn't realise that there is a massive Veil breach?]]
* ''Chronicles
crack in the Opal and thus doesn't try to seep into it. In the Annasi Apocalypse scenario the Wyrm does become aware of the Black Labyrinth'' was compiled by Frater I.I. crack and published for public consumption in-universe. The book contains a wealth of information on rather quickly exploits it, leading to the Black Spiral Dancers and Seventh Generation, who normally do their utmost to stay hidden. Why haven't the Black Spiral Dancers torn Frater I.I. to shreds for Annasi's fall.
** It's more a matter of scale. Because both of them operate on
such a massive Veil breach? For scale they lack the finesse and perspective that matter, why hasn't lesser beings have. Think of it as the Seventh Generation punished Frater I.I. for releasing information about their history difference between a dog and rites?
** You can't kill someone you can't find. With enough preparations he could keep himself hidden from all
an ant getting through a door; the dog is limited to physically breaking it but the most dedicated hunters. As for ant break in easier by virtue of being smaller and only needing to make a smaller hole that would be almost invisible to the Seventh Generation, they had much more pressing issues at the time in the form of Jonas Albrecht and company looking to rip them to shreds. dog.



[[folder: Black Furies and Mistreated Female Kinfolk]]
* ''Kinfolk'' states that some homid Garou men mistreat their kinfolk wives, subjecting them to forced breeding and domestic abuse. However, the Black Fury tribe is conspicuously passive about this problem, despite treating their own female kinfolk well. Since the Black Furies' tribal laws forbid them from turning a blind eye to violence against women, aren't they bound by duty to protect these women and avenge their mistreatment?
** IIRC, more than a few do call out fellow Garou over outright abuse and spirit off mistreated Kinfolk, however in terms of the [[MandatoryMotherhood Breed For The Sake Of Gaia]] part the Furies hold to that themselves.

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! Wyrm Servants

[[folder: Why Do Black Furies and Mistreated Female Kinfolk]]
Spiral Dancers Have Lunar Auspices?]]
* ''Kinfolk'' states that some homid Black Spiral Dancer Garou men mistreat have lunar auspices like their kinfolk wives, subjecting them to forced breeding Gaian counterparts. Luna is Gaia's sister and domestic abuse. However, ally, so why does she still exert her influence over Garou who serve the Wyrm? One would think that Luna would withhold her blessing from a faction of Garou who are waging war on Gaia.
** To boot, Luna withholds her blessing from the Nuwisha out of pique over an ancient insult. Why would she withhold her blessing from the Nuwisha, who serve Gaia, but still exert influence over the Wyrm-tainted
Black Fury tribe is conspicuously passive about this problem, despite treating their own female kinfolk well. Since Spiral Dancers?
*** Probably because Luna doesn't have
the Black Furies' tribal laws forbid them power to distinquish between the two, but can for the Nuwisha since they're a different changing breed.
*** Also, the Wyrm might block Luna
from turning a blind eye to violence against women, aren't they bound by duty to protect these women and avenge their mistreatment?
** IIRC, more than a few do call out fellow Garou over outright abuse and spirit off mistreated Kinfolk, however in terms of the [[MandatoryMotherhood Breed For The Sake Of Gaia]] part the Furies hold to
removing that themselves.power from its servants, since it definitely outranks her.



[[folder: Nuwisha packs]]
* In the wild, coyotes live in small family packs. In older editions of ''Werewolf: The Apocalypse'', the Nuwisha do not organize themselves into packs, but rather operate independently. Since the other changing breeds reflect the behaviors of their animal cousins, why don't the Nuwisha operate in packs like the Garou?
** Because Coyote thought it was funny.

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[[folder: Nuwisha packs]]
How Do Hives Stay Hidden?]]
* In the wild, coyotes live in small family packs. In older editions How do Black Spiral Dancer hives stay hidden from humans and Gaia Garou? Aren't observers going to notice a lot of ''Werewolf: The Apocalypse'', the Nuwisha do not organize themselves into packs, but rather operate independently. Since the scary-looking people and wolves coming out of a cavern entrance? Aren't they going to notice said scary-looking people transporting food, weapons, and other changing breeds reflect supplies to a cavern entrance? Wouldn't balefire and strange noises coming from hives make observers suspicious? Even if hive entrances are tucked away in remote locations, ''someone'' is going to notice all this.
** Spirals may be insane but they're not stupid enough to avoid such simple measures as investing in acoustics to stop humans from investigating and discrete entrances so nobody notices
the behaviors of their animal cousins, why supplies (weapons being irrelevant since they're already nine-feet-tall mobile death machines), the same way Gaian Garou hide urban caerns. A hive in a city is going to have its entrance hidden in places humans don't frequent or inside buildings, so even if your average human sees someone moving boxes into a building he's not going to think twice about what's going on in there compared to another other building in the Nuwisha operate in packs like city, and sound is going to have a hard time escaping to street-level anyway. For a rural Hive, it's far enough away from any population centre that your average human who gets close is going to be on their own and easy to grab and take back as that night's dinner/soul-raped into getting a Bane and sent off to fight for the Garou?
Wyrm. As for Gaian Garou, they are constantly outnumbered by the Spirals who have no issue with Metis and any Gaian Garou who get too close will get ambushed and either get killed, converted or turned into Brood Mares to make more Metis to further advance their numbers advantage. And that's assuming they can locate the general area of the hive from the Wyrm's efforts to spread its corruption everywhere.
** Because Coyote thought it was funny.
Just think about cartel compounds in bad neighborhoods, or fundamentalist militia men out in the woods. We have those in the real world, and they get away with a lot. Add in crappier normals and scarier bad guys, and it's easy to see. Both these groups usually get away with what they do by being just scary enough that people worry what MIGHT happen if they confront them, but not so obviously scary that people know what's going to happen (since then, they would call the authorities).



[[folder: Ananasa's opal prison]]

* How is it that ancient Garou were able to crack the opal containment cell holding Ananasa? Neither [[PhysicalGod Ananasa]] nor the [[EldritchAbomination Wyrm]] were able to break the opal open, so if two powerful deities couldn't damage it, how could a group of Garou?
** Also, when the Garou cracked the opal, it allowed Ananasa to communicate with distant Ananasi. However, the Wyrm's corrupution still can't seep into the opal. How is it that Ananasa's power can escape the opal, but the energy of a much more powerful deity can't breach it?
*** The Wyrm doesn't realise that there is a crack in the Opal and thus doesn't try to seep into it. In the Annasi Apocalypse scenario the Wyrm does become aware of the crack and rather quickly exploits it, leading to the Annasi's fall.
** It's more a matter of scale. Because both of them operate on such a massive scale they lack the finesse and perspective that lesser beings have. Think of it as the difference between a dog and an ant getting through a door; the dog is limited to physically breaking it but the ant break in easier by virtue of being smaller and only needing to make a smaller hole that would be almost invisible to the dog.

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[[folder: Ananasa's opal prison]]

* How is it that ancient Garou were able to crack the opal containment cell holding Ananasa? Neither [[PhysicalGod Ananasa]] nor the [[EldritchAbomination Wyrm]] were able to break the opal open, so if two powerful deities couldn't damage it, how could a group of Garou?
** Also, when the Garou cracked the opal, it allowed Ananasa to communicate
Wyrm servants are okay with distant Ananasi. However, the Wyrm's corrupution still can't seep into the opal. How is it that Ananasa's power can escape the opal, but the energy of a much more powerful deity can't breach it?
*** The Wyrm doesn't realise that there is a crack in the Opal and thus doesn't try to seep into it. In the Annasi Apocalypse scenario the Wyrm does become aware
massive Veil breach?]]
* ''Chronicles
of the crack Black Labyrinth'' was compiled by Frater I.I. and rather quickly exploits it, leading to published for public consumption in-universe. The book contains a wealth of information on the Annasi's fall.
** It's more a matter of scale. Because both of them operate on
Black Spiral Dancers and Seventh Generation, who normally do their utmost to stay hidden. Why haven't the Black Spiral Dancers torn Frater I.I. to shreds for such a massive scale they lack the finesse and perspective Veil breach? For that lesser beings have. Think of it as matter, why hasn't the difference between a dog Seventh Generation punished Frater I.I. for releasing information about their history and an ant getting through a door; the dog is limited to physically breaking it rites?
** You can't kill someone you can't find. With enough preparations he could keep himself hidden from all
but the ant break most dedicated hunters. As for the Seventh Generation, they had much more pressing issues at the time in easier by virtue the form of being smaller Jonas Albrecht and only needing company looking to make a smaller hole that would be almost invisible rip them to the dog.
shreds.



[[folder:Genetic bottlenecks]]
Several Garou tribes are picky about their breeding partners, choosing mates from very small pools of humans. For example, the Silver Fangs only breed with humans of royal blood. The Get of Fenris, Uktena, and Wendigo only breed with people from certain racial and ethnic groups.

Some tribes have extremely small gene pools of Garou and kinfolk. The Stargazers only have a few hundred Garou members worldwide. The Red Talons are a small tribe due to habitat loss and an ever-shrinking pool of wolves with whom they can breed.

Other tribes have small gene pools because they are very selective about which Garou stay in the tribe. For example, the Get of Fenris exclude members who aren't strong enough to meet their standards (and, they send cubs through brutal Rites of Passage that result in high numbers of cub deaths). The Black Furies send their Garou sons to other tribes.

How on earth do these tribes remain genetically viable? The lack of genetic diversity in these tribes should create [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect founder effects]] and concentrate genetic defects in their offspring. Shouldn't the aforementioned tribes be ''massively'' inbred by now?
** They are and it's why the Silver Fangs are failing. Indeed, all of the tribes are failing but the Black Spiral Dancers due to the excessive amount of in-breeding, stupid practices, and constant violence. The only reason they've lasted as long as they have is Kinfolk marry regular humans all the time.
[[/folder]]



''Caerns: Places of Power'' describes the Trinity Hive Caern, a holy site for the Black Spiral Dancers. Both Grammaw (the colossal thunderwyrm who nests underneath the Trinity impact site) and land around the hive are radioactive. As a result, many of the Black Spiral Dancers who reside in or near Grammaw have mild radiation sickness, with symptoms such as hair loss, pale skin, and in Palefish's case, fatigue and poor muscle tone. However, Zhyzhak spends most of her time in or near Grammaw, in keeping with her duties as warder, but she has none of these symptoms. Why hasn't Zhyzhak showed signs of radiation sickness like many of her hive-mates?

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* ''Caerns: Places of Power'' describes the Trinity Hive Caern, a holy site for the Black Spiral Dancers. Both Grammaw (the colossal thunderwyrm who nests underneath the Trinity impact site) and land around the hive are radioactive. As a result, many of the Black Spiral Dancers who reside in or near Grammaw have mild radiation sickness, with symptoms such as hair loss, pale skin, and in Palefish's case, fatigue and poor muscle tone. However, Zhyzhak spends most of her time in or near Grammaw, in keeping with her duties as warder, but she has none of these symptoms. Why hasn't Zhyzhak showed signs of radiation sickness like many of her hive-mates?


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[[/folder]]

[[folder:How Did the Fallen Garou Get So Powerful?]]

* ''Apocalypse: Time of Judgment'' contains several scenarios in which a Gaia Garou tribe falls to the Wyrm. In several scenarios, these Wyrm-tainted Garou pull off amazing feats of death and destruction. For example, the Widows (formerly the Black Furies) attack technology hubs, hurling the world back into a circa-1900 level of technological development. The Plague Rats (formerly the Bone Gnawers) trigger deadly epidemics across the globe. The Red Talons manage to locate, communicate with, and unleash buried methane-spirits that throw the biosphere into chaos. None of these tribes had anywhere ''near'' the power or numbers to pull off these feats when they served Gaia, so how did they suddenly become so powerful after falling to the Wyrm? The Wyrm's patronage alone can't explain it, since the Black Spiral Dancers had more substantial numbers and served the Wyrm for far longer than any of the fallen tribes, but never demonstrated such levels of power.

[[/folder]]

! The Triat

[[folder: Why Does the Wyrm Focus on Gaia?]]
* Write-ups on the planetary Incarna suggest that (with the exception of Rorg's realm) the Wyrm has largely left the other planets alone. Why has the Wyrm focuses so much of its efforts on Gaia while ignoring the other planets? It can't be soley because of Gaia's richness of life, because Tambiyah's realm (Venus) is lush and verdant in the Umbra, for instance.
** Maybe it doesn't want to fight a war on multiple fronts?
** First off; Gaia is not the planetary Incarna of Earth, Eshtarra is (the exact relationship between Gaia and Eshtarra is complicated). But basically Gaia is the absolute top of the totem pole, the Wyrm cannot suceed so long as Gaia is still alive. Leaving Gaia/Eshtarra to attack anyone else would mean losing your foothold on Earth and push the Wyrm's victory further back.
*** The Umbral version of Venus is basically an idealization based on what could-have-been and human imagination of what they thought Venus was, before the Russian landers. Earth is the planet with actual life on it at the moment. Also keep in mind that most Garou are NOT scholars, whether initially raised as humans or not, and in their simple, tribal, myth-loving minds, Gaia basically is the classic Earth Mother (with an emphasis on the Life aspect, as well as representing the planet as a physical object.)
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Why Is the Wyld Doing the Wyrm's Work?]]
* The Wyld is the primal force of creation and change, whereas the Wyrm was the force of destruction and death (at least before it went insane). Why then do so many Wyld-aligned races focus on death and destruction? For example, the Red Talons are ruthless killers, and some of the more hardline Talons would like to see humanity wiped out. The Rokea are also reknown as killers. The Ratkin's original purpose was to kill excess humans. Why do Wyld-oriented creatures have such an affinity for death and destruction, which is technically part of the the Wyrm's portfolio?
** The Wyld is the creative and changing force of the Triat, but it's also reflected in and tied with untamed nature, which tends to be pretty violent itself. And the destructive allies of the Wyld tend to be more destructive in a "natural" sense of predation, population control, etc. than the "maintaining the cosmic balance and destroying that which is flawed and has no place" sense that the Wyrm once presided over or the "wanton cruelty, torture, and random acts of violence" of the modern Wyrm. Granted, Red Talons at least have been descending more and more into the latter, but it's explicitly stated that they're in danger of falling to the Wyrm because of this. On top of that, humanity -- particularly post-industrial, Technocracy-influenced humanity -- spreads the influence of the Weaver, which the Wyld has a vested interest in stopping, even if it means stepping outside its intended role.
18th Sep '16 2:59:26 PM Foxtrot
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**To put it simply, Zhyzhak is special.
18th Sep '16 2:55:11 PM Foxtrot
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to:

**It has to do with the intertwined nature of Weaver and Wyrm. The Weaver is actually the Wyrm's real target, and Gaia is kind of a casualty in this (and of course, it's misinterpreted by the common Garou as the Wyrm attacking Gaia, with the Weaver as an incidental victim/sometimes minor problem. Book of the Weaver was not meant to alter the common knowledge of Garou, as it was written by three scholars that no one pays much attention to for being .. oddballs.) And because the Wyrm is trapped in web's of the Weaver's own devise, it's easier for him to act through/attack the Weaver's most important and cherised agents themselves - humans, the adopted children of the Weaver. To corrupt the Weaver's own minions and use them against Her (as well as Gaia or anyone else who opposes him)is just icing on the revenge-madness cake.
18th Sep '16 2:44:37 PM Foxtrot
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Added DiffLines:

***Indeed - Gaia doesn't burden her children with two tasks, she only asks one. And what breed one is would mostly be spiritual, just as it was for the Bunyip.


Added DiffLines:

***The Umbral version of Venus is basically an idealization based on what could-have-been and human imagination of what they thought Venus was, before the Russian landers. Earth is the planet with actual life on it at the moment. Also keep in mind that most Garou are NOT scholars, whether initially raised as humans or not, and in their simple, tribal, myth-loving minds, Gaia basically is the classic Earth Mother (with an emphasis on the Life aspect, as well as representing the planet as a physical object.)
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