History Headscratchers / Torchwood

20th Jul '16 7:51:28 PM Foxtrot
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

**Well, then, why were they so concerned that every country send its "fair share"? They were well aware of the problems with human overpopulation, and that there were third world countries FULL of children who would inevitably die anyway, of starvation, AIDS, etc. So why didn't they simply ask for these, rather than going into unnecessarily long, nitpicky rules about selection? I'm sure very few would have had a problem with that, given the long-term benefits in less foreign aid needed to feed these overpopulated hordes. Also, IRL, if what happened in the show DID, then many governments would (at least secretly) use it as an opportunity to put a dent in the populations of their unwanted, disliked minorities. This was probably the clunkiest part of the show, and felt forced for purely politically-correct reasons.
20th May '16 2:25:07 PM JadeEyes1
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** '''They keep killing Suzie''': This goes for Gwen, as she not only feels responsible for killing Suzie (That bitch deserved it for killing people and later commiting suicide), but also takes her out of their secret base to meet her father (It doesn't really matters because she was already dead and was temporaly alive) and almost died in the process. I'm the only one who thinks that she deserved to die for being TooDumbToLive?
** '''The End of Time''': Sure, let's open the rift and kill Jack because he doesn't want us to endanger the universe just because Gwen's boyfriend was killed. What's the worst that could happpen? Oh, I don't know. '''Maybe a giant demon who can killl anyone stepping on his shadow?!''' By this episode, Torchwood should've been dismantled, their members killed and all alien technology thrown in Area 51 to avoid any incidents like this.

to:

** '''They keep killing Keep Killing Suzie''': This goes for Gwen, as she not only feels responsible for killing Suzie (That bitch deserved it for killing people and later commiting committing suicide), but also takes her out of their secret base to meet her father (It doesn't really matters because she was already dead and was temporaly temporarily alive) and almost died in the process. I'm the only one who thinks that she deserved to die for being TooDumbToLive?
** '''The End of Time''': Sure, let's open the rift and kill Jack because he doesn't want us to endanger the universe just because Gwen's boyfriend was killed. What's the worst that could happpen? Oh, I don't know. '''Maybe a giant demon who can killl kill anyone stepping on his shadow?!''' By this episode, Torchwood should've been dismantled, their members killed and all alien technology thrown in Area 51 to avoid any incidents like this.



*** Okay here's the most basic explanation I can come up with for Torchwood's incompetence: we're a moderately primitive (SJA called us "level five" which apparantly means "smart enough to talk, not smart enough for lightspeed yet") species dealing with a stonking great rift in time and space. Said Rift reguarly throws out completely alien stuff at us which may be from places far technologically superior to our own, violent, or simply from a world not suited to cope with us carbon based lifeforms. One of Torchwood's primary objectives is to hoard and claim all this alien tech in the hopes that we can use it to further our own development and learn how to cope with whatever's coming, but saying they're the best ones prepared to deal with all these coming "changes" in the twenty first century is a bit like saying a mouse with a pistol is more capable of taking on a cat than a mouse without one: sure the mouse may have hoarded the technology and based on studies into the species intelligence, it could maybe even eventually work out how to push it around on the ground or nudge the sticky out bit or something, but that doesn't mean it ''knows how to use it effectively.'' Torchwood are completely out of their depth, trying to deal with stuff that's WAY over their heads. How do you think ''you'd'' cope? I'd say that most of the cast did well just to ''survive'' for as long as they did.

to:

*** Okay here's the most basic explanation I can come up with for Torchwood's incompetence: we're a moderately primitive (SJA called us "level five" which apparantly apparently means "smart enough to talk, not smart enough for lightspeed yet") species dealing with a stonking great rift in time and space. Said Rift reguarly regularly throws out completely alien stuff at us which may be from places far technologically superior to our own, violent, or simply from a world not suited to cope with us carbon based lifeforms. One of Torchwood's primary objectives is to hoard and claim all this alien tech in the hopes that we can use it to further our own development and learn how to cope with whatever's coming, but saying they're the best ones prepared to deal with all these coming "changes" in the twenty first century is a bit like saying a mouse with a pistol is more capable of taking on a cat than a mouse without one: sure the mouse may have hoarded the technology and based on studies into the species intelligence, it could maybe even eventually work out how to push it around on the ground or nudge the sticky out bit or something, but that doesn't mean it ''knows how to use it effectively.'' Torchwood are completely out of their depth, trying to deal with stuff that's WAY over their heads. How do you think ''you'd'' cope? I'd say that most of the cast did well just to ''survive'' for as long as they did.



** Not really. At least till the episode of Greeks Bearing Gifts the series does its hardest to point out how awful a leader Jack. Lets see: he fails to notice Ianto is keeping his cyberwoman girlfriend in the basement or that the CCTV goes missing whenever he needs to sneak someone in (despite probably sleeping with him through this period), he has not kept his team from stealing alien tec for personal reasons (as demonstrated in ep 1), he runs the worst "secret" secret organisation in the world, he has lost touch with the real world and other people (Gwen joins this team for this very reason), the team gets on well without him inbetween season 1 and 2, and all the team are pissed at him for giving Jasmine over to the fairies/aliens. He is pretty awful.

to:

** Not really. At least till the episode of Greeks Bearing Gifts the series does its hardest to point out how awful a leader Jack. Lets see: he fails to notice Ianto is keeping his cyberwoman Cyberwoman girlfriend in the basement or that the CCTV goes missing whenever he needs to sneak someone in (despite probably sleeping with him through this period), he has not kept his team from stealing alien tec for personal reasons (as demonstrated in ep 1), he runs the worst "secret" secret organisation in the world, he has lost touch with the real world and other people (Gwen joins this team for this very reason), the team gets on well without him inbetween in-between season 1 and 2, and all the team are pissed at him for giving Jasmine over to the fairies/aliens. He is pretty awful.



*** Maybe what Jack actually meant was "I pay attention when my team act weird... or at least I've started to do so since I discovered that one of them was keeping a cyberwoman in the basement."

to:

*** Maybe what Jack actually meant was "I pay attention when my team act weird... or at least I've started to do so since I discovered that one of them was keeping a cyberwoman Cyberwoman in the basement."



*** That doesn't tell us anything neccesarily romantic, Jack has an unstated love for a ''lot'' of people (he never ''said'' he was in love with Ianto in those exact words either, but just watch C o E Day 4 ad tell me soemthing wasn't up. Still, in the period he comes from the lines between platonic relationships, brotherly/sisterly ones and fuck buddies are no doubt a hell of a lot more blurred. What upset him about Gwen getting married was the fact that her 21st century mores would therefore limit ''any'' possibilities of their being close in ''that way'' -''"You twenty first century people and your quaint little categories"'', remember? Jack doesn't see why the hell someone being married means they can't sleep with someone else. It'd be nice to get a decent explanation of Jack's sexual morality besides just "will shag anything", really...

to:

*** That doesn't tell us anything neccesarily necessarily romantic, Jack has an unstated love for a ''lot'' of people (he never ''said'' he was in love with Ianto in those exact words either, but just watch C o E Day 4 ad tell me soemthing wasn't up. Still, in the period he comes from the lines between platonic relationships, brotherly/sisterly ones and fuck buddies are no doubt a hell of a lot more blurred. What upset him about Gwen getting married was the fact that her 21st century mores would therefore limit ''any'' possibilities of their being close in ''that way'' -''"You twenty first century people and your quaint little categories"'', remember? Jack doesn't see why the hell someone being married means they can't sleep with someone else. It'd be nice to get a decent explanation of Jack's sexual morality besides just "will shag anything", really...



** According to Series Two: persistence, and helping capture a pteranadon (and landing on top of Jack while doing so, hem, hem).

to:

** According to Series Two: persistence, and helping capture a pteranadon Pteranadon (and landing on top of Jack while doing so, hem, hem).



*** It could have been that he was impressed by Ianto - you have to admit, a cyberwoman in the basement is not an easy thing to hide - and saw that he had the potential to do the morally grey stuff that the rest of the team do if he cared about it enough.

to:

*** It could have been that he was impressed by Ianto - you have to admit, a cyberwoman Cyberwoman in the basement is not an easy thing to hide - and saw that he had the potential to do the morally grey stuff that the rest of the team do if he cared about it enough.



* Whose idea was it to put four people and a secretary in charge of handling all alien phenomena occuring across all of Wales? What happens if there are simultaneous crises in Cardiff, Newport, and Swansea?

to:

* Whose idea was it to put four people and a secretary in charge of handling all alien phenomena occuring occurring across all of Wales? What happens if there are simultaneous crises in Cardiff, Newport, and Swansea?



*** there's a medical post and a tecnological post open, Martha has a medical degree and we know how good Mickey is with computers, hello?

to:

*** there's a medical post and a tecnological technological post open, Martha has a medical degree and we know how good Mickey is with computers, hello?



** As for hiring troubled people, I suspect Jack was looking for people who had the skills he needed and had also fallen off the radar one way or another so there would be no relatives to ask what happened. These people only come around every so often so he has to snap them up pretty quickly. It just so happens to be that they have become troubled as a result of falling into these circumstances. Tosh [[spoiler:had been squirrled away by UNIT, so she could be considered as a missing person. Jack saw that she could be trusted and let off the leash a bit regarding family contact]] which is the only explanation I can think of for her going to her Grandpa's birthday party that doesn't result in {{Retcon}}. Owen [[spoiler:had just suffered a bereavement,''Adam'' suggests he's estranged from his family and his colleagues know he's having a breakdown so no one would notice till it was too late that he was gone.]] Ianto and Gwen [[spoiler:were hired down to a combination of convienience plus craving.]] As for Suzie, [[spoiler:methinks her dad probably abused in some way regarding her being troubled,]] but otherwise, I have no idea.

to:

** As for hiring troubled people, I suspect Jack was looking for people who had the skills he needed and had also fallen off the radar one way or another so there would be no relatives to ask what happened. These people only come around every so often so he has to snap them up pretty quickly. It just so happens to be that they have become troubled as a result of falling into these circumstances. Tosh [[spoiler:had been squirrled away by UNIT, so she could be considered as a missing person. Jack saw that she could be trusted and let off the leash a bit regarding family contact]] which is the only explanation I can think of for her going to her Grandpa's birthday party that doesn't result in {{Retcon}}. Owen [[spoiler:had just suffered a bereavement,''Adam'' suggests he's estranged from his family and his colleagues know he's having a breakdown so no one would notice till it was too late that he was gone.]] Ianto and Gwen [[spoiler:were hired down to a combination of convienience convenience plus craving.]] As for Suzie, [[spoiler:methinks her dad probably abused in some way regarding her being troubled,]] but otherwise, I have no idea.



** True, but when the collective of eldritch abomination started threatening to kill even more people, Jack honestly didn't have much choice in the matter. And more to the point, he knew that the fairies weren't bluffing: he knew how overprotective they could be around their future members, having seen a whole train-car full of soldiers die because a few of them accidentally killed a child that the fairies had chosen. So, how exactly would he be expected to fight off said eldritch abominations? How could he possibly negotiate with them when ''they'' have a lot more to bargain with- ie the lives of everyone on the planet! So, how exactly would this situation be resolved without handing over the child?

to:

** True, but when the collective of eldritch abomination EldritchAbomination started threatening to kill even more people, Jack honestly didn't have much choice in the matter. And more to the point, he knew that the fairies weren't bluffing: he knew how overprotective they could be around their future members, having seen a whole train-car full of soldiers die because a few of them accidentally killed a child that the fairies had chosen. So, how exactly would he be expected to fight off said eldritch abominations? Eldritch Abominations? How could he possibly negotiate with them when ''they'' have a lot more to bargain with- ie i.e. the lives of everyone on the planet! So, how exactly would this situation be resolved without handing over the child?



* Question: What exactly is Gwen's job/what she was hired for? And why did Jack hire her in the first place? Jack is the leader, Owen is the medic, Suzie was the analyser/weapon's expert, Tosh is the computor geek, and Ianto keeps the place clean, makes coffee and interacts with the outside world. Gwen doesn't have the qualifications to replace Suzie, didn't know how to use a gun, and she knew nothing about aliens. Seriously [[FlatWhat What.]]

to:

* Question: What exactly is Gwen's job/what she was hired for? And why did Jack hire her in the first place? Jack is the leader, Owen is the medic, Suzie was the analyser/weapon's expert, Tosh is the computor computer geek, and Ianto keeps the place clean, makes coffee and interacts with the outside world. Gwen doesn't have the qualifications to replace Suzie, didn't know how to use a gun, and she knew nothing about aliens. Seriously [[FlatWhat What.]]



*** Sorry, could you elaborate a bit? I'm being dense and I'm not sure I fully get your meaning there. If what you're referring to is "why didn't the Doctor know about the COE event in advance due to it beng a fixed point?" then, well, if you think of time as being like a motorway and fixed points as being significant car crashes... there are gonna be a lot of big car crashes and a lot of fixed points, right? Hard to pick any one of them out of all that even if you DO see "all of time and space" in your head all the time -if the Doctor's time sense were infallible wouldn't half the episodes we see never occur because he'd know how to fix the problem the second he showed up?

to:

*** Sorry, could you elaborate a bit? I'm being dense and I'm not sure I fully get your meaning there. If what you're referring to is "why didn't the Doctor know about the COE event in advance due to it beng being a fixed point?" then, well, if you think of time as being like a motorway and fixed points as being significant car crashes... there are gonna be a lot of big car crashes and a lot of fixed points, right? Hard to pick any one of them out of all that even if you DO see "all of time and space" in your head all the time -if the Doctor's time sense were infallible wouldn't half the episodes we see never occur because he'd know how to fix the problem the second he showed up?



*** But having no other way out IS an excuse... or rather, it's a reason, and I think the Doctor would probably accept that. The Family didn't just steal the life they needed to live, they were malicious gits who clearly ''enjoyed'' causing pain and fear to those all around them. Jack wasn't that. When he did was a horrific choice for him. I can't think of a previous example in which the choice was such an utterly impossible one. Whatever we personally think of his actions against Harriet, the point is that she didnt ''have'' to shoot the Sycorax in the back. It may have been the most long term sensible choice in her eyes (well long-term as in "for the next few generations of humans" which is longish term for us but for a nine hundred year old man? Not so much), but it wasn't a "do or die" situation, and it went against his moral code -it may still have been bad form on his part to wreck our so called golden age with six words, but it wasn't an impossible choice for her. I'm trying to think of examples here where the choice really was an utterly totally impossible one, not just "very very diffcult", but literally a do-or-die one to make... none are springing to mind (except possibly Gallifrey's end, and we still don't really know what happened there), but I have the feeling that if they happened, the Doctor would've ''accepted'' that there was no other way (at least not one they could think of without ''him''). He's not going to be happy about what Jack did, but that doesn't mean he's going to think Jack deserves to have hell's fury reigned down on him from above -anyway I reckon Jack's getting that all on his own, thank you very much. Also, the Doctor committed Genocide. He's not ''that'' big of a hypocrite.

to:

*** But having no other way out IS an excuse... or rather, it's a reason, and I think the Doctor would probably accept that. The Family didn't just steal the life they needed to live, they were malicious gits who clearly ''enjoyed'' causing pain and fear to those all around them. Jack wasn't that. When he did was a horrific choice for him. I can't think of a previous example in which the choice was such an utterly impossible one. Whatever we personally think of his actions against Harriet, the point is that she didnt didn't ''have'' to shoot the Sycorax in the back. It may have been the most long term sensible choice in her eyes (well long-term as in "for the next few generations of humans" which is longish term for us but for a nine hundred year old man? Not so much), but it wasn't a "do or die" situation, and it went against his moral code -it may still have been bad form on his part to wreck our so called golden age with six words, but it wasn't an impossible choice for her. I'm trying to think of examples here where the choice really was an utterly totally impossible one, not just "very very diffcult", difficult", but literally a do-or-die one to make... none are springing to mind (except possibly Gallifrey's end, and we still don't really know what happened there), but I have the feeling that if they happened, the Doctor would've ''accepted'' that there was no other way (at least not one they could think of without ''him''). He's not going to be happy about what Jack did, but that doesn't mean he's going to think Jack deserves to have hell's fury reigned down on him from above -anyway I reckon Jack's getting that all on his own, thank you very much. Also, the Doctor committed Genocide. He's not ''that'' big of a hypocrite.



* Pardon if someone already pointed this out, but in that episode about the circus/freak show people coming back to life from a movie, it is shown an old timey film of Jack using his immortality to do a sing routine while shooting himself in the head again and again. Last time I checked, when the team commited mutinity and Owen (was it Owen? Ianto? someone.) shot him in the head just before the team unleashed the demon, he stayed dead for a few minutes before waking up again. What happened to the ressurrection being to fast that he could keep up the timing of a song in between deaths?

to:

* Pardon if someone already pointed this out, but in that episode about the circus/freak show people coming back to life from a movie, it is shown an old timey film of Jack using his immortality to do a sing routine while shooting himself in the head again and again. Last time I checked, when the team commited mutinity committed mutiny and Owen (was it Owen? Ianto? someone.) shot him in the head just before the team unleashed the demon, he stayed dead for a few minutes before waking up again. What happened to the ressurrection resurrection being to fast that he could keep up the timing of a song in between deaths?
20th May '16 2:19:56 PM JadeEyes1
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** Even without Jack's leadership Torchwood has been known for screwing up before [[Recap/DoctorWhoS28E12ArmyOfGhosts The Battle Of]] [[Recap/DoctorWhoS28E13Doomsday Canary Wharf]] can attest to that.

to:

*** Even without Jack's leadership leadership, Torchwood has been known for screwing up before before. [[Recap/DoctorWhoS28E12ArmyOfGhosts The Battle Of]] [[Recap/DoctorWhoS28E13Doomsday Canary Wharf]] can attest to that.
7th Jan '16 5:03:07 PM cillianflood
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** I think it's made explicitly clear that she wasn't meant to be there. The only person on her level enough to notice her there is Spears who thinks she's there for...favours, and Capaldi himself who just assumes Spears wants her there for some reason and has a shit tonne of more pressing matters to deal with. From everyone else's perspective in that room she's just another supposedly important person that they can assume are meant to be there.
14th Nov '15 8:25:53 AM Mith4
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** And while we're at it: what about the fairies? I suppose those 10% of kids didn't include one of their Chosen, or things would have gotten interesting.
24th Aug '15 1:58:12 AM sorin255
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* While The Doctor's absence could be explained by Jack being a Fixed Point in time, and Sarah Jane's absence can be explained by... I don't know what, I think we're missing the fact that Children of Earth brings up a gaping problem: The Shadow Proclamation is entirely useless. This is an alien harvesting the children of a Level 5 developing world for [[spoiler:some kind of intergalactic drug trade]], but they're nowhere to be seen. You'd think the Judoon would be all over the case of the 456.
27th Jun '15 7:07:00 AM Shaoken
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** One of the military officials makes it clear that they have no idea how the 456 made it to Earth to begin with and points out that it makes fighting back kind of impossible if you can't even find where to strike back at. Combine that with a lack of knowledge about the 456 and you could see why they would be hesitant to call the bluff.


Added DiffLines:

** They explicitly say that they think the Hub is the key to Jack's immortality (as he hasn't exactly been forthcoming with too much information about himself).
10th Jun '15 12:08:00 PM StFan
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** Even without Jack's leadership Torchwood has been known for screwing up before [[Recap/DoctorWhoNSS2E12ArmyOfGhosts The Battle Of]] [[Recap/DoctorWhoNSS2E13DoomsDay Canary Wharf]] can attest to that.

to:

*** Even without Jack's leadership Torchwood has been known for screwing up before [[Recap/DoctorWhoNSS2E12ArmyOfGhosts [[Recap/DoctorWhoS28E12ArmyOfGhosts The Battle Of]] [[Recap/DoctorWhoNSS2E13DoomsDay [[Recap/DoctorWhoS28E13Doomsday Canary Wharf]] can attest to that.
18th Nov '14 8:33:11 PM firejewel
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** '''Smallworld''': I don't think that having the team blaming Jack is being idiots, just pissed off because they couldn't save the girl. But I still calll them idiots for hating him when the fairies threatened to destroy Earth if they didn't give them the girl. I mean, seriously guys? Would you rather kill all humankind because of a single little girl?

to:

** '''Smallworld''': I don't think that having the team blaming Jack is being idiots, just pissed off because they couldn't save the girl. But I still calll call them idiots for hating him when the fairies threatened to destroy Earth if they didn't give them the girl. I mean, seriously guys? Would you rather kill all humankind mankind because of a single little girl?girl?
*** Makes one wonder why nobody thought to call the Doctor, he'd have never let the Fairies take the girl. And he would have sent the little bastards packing too.
6th Sep '14 2:04:20 AM Mipe
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* What's up with Owen's glasses in ''Adam''? He only wears them in that episode, and even then only for as long as his altered, meeker personality holds. I understand glasses are a widely recognized visual shorthand for dweeb, but generally people wear glasses to correct impaired vision. So did the implanted memories somehow mess with his eyesight? Are we supposed to assume he ''does'' have poor vision and usually wears contacts out of vanity? If so, shouldn't he be kind of blind at the end of the episode, given that he's abandoned the glasses at that point and could logically be assumed not to be wearing his hypothetical contacts?
This list shows the last 10 events of 38. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.Torchwood