History Headscratchers / TheUsualSuspects

7th Aug '17 3:15:17 PM trumpetmarietta
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* So Keyser Soze kills off everyone who knows what he looks like, then reveals himself to a policeman just to taunt him?
** He doesn't simply kill anyone who can identify him. The target was special because he could identify Soze and had intimate knowledge of his criminal enterprise. In other words, this one person was both willing and able to send Soze to prison.
** He didn't reveal himself. Kujan didn't realise the story was [[spoiler: fabricated from the noticeboard]] until Soze had left, and the fax with the description didn't come through until after Kujan rushed out.
** I think this was taken care of with the whole "You think a guy like that comes this close to getting caught and sticks his head out? If he comes up for anything, it will be to get rid of me. After that... my guess is you'll never hear from him again." This was the equivalent of the "one last job" before retirement for Kint/Soze. His revenge on the Hungarians is complete, he surely has more than enough money and contacts to live totally behind the scenes for the rest of his life. It doesn't matter that the cops have a description or fingerprints, once he's out of the police station - "...and like that, he's gone."
*** How is that not revealing himself? Soze didn't know the fax was coming, but he knew the fact that he used names from the noticeboard would cause Kujan to eventually realize who he was. Which works for me if it's just that he couldn't come up with names on the spot. But if he was doing this deliberately, knowing that it didn't matter if Kujan knew what he looked like since he could just disappear, why did he (try to) kill that other guy?
*** Kujan figuring out the names came from the bulletin board wasn't guaranteed to happen (that wasn't even his regular office, keep in mind), and even if he did realize Verbal was making the whole story up, that would just prove that Verbal Kint was hiding something, not that he was Keyzer Soze.
*** I've always maintained that Soze has lost, and lost badly, at the end of this movie, for exactly this reason. At the beginning of the story, Soze initiates the whole plot to kill "the one guy who could identify him." At the end of the film, every law enforcement agency on earth has copies of his mugshot, fingerprints, plus a recording of his voice. On top of which, the authorities also have an eyewitness statement from the badly burned Hungarian implicating Soze in multiple murders, which statement is admissible as evidence under the deathbed statement exception to the hearsay rule. Maybe this film is really a subversion of ''film noir''.
*** I believe Verbal didn't plan to mention Keyser Soze at all. He'd just slam together a story he thought would fit what the police knew, and then be done with it. However, once he found out that they knew that Keyser Soze was somehow involved, he '''had''' to stick more or less to the truth about the incident. That the police knew of Keyser Soze told him that they had an eye witness, and then it was only a matter of time before they could arrest him. Realizing this, Verbal continued his story with Keyser Soze as the great architect behind it all, and in a way so Keaton would be believed to be Mr. Soze.
*** That could be true. Notice how Verbal reacts with [[spoiler: "Oh, fuck!!"]] when Kujan asks about Keyser Soze? Probably, he thought he'd be able to get through without mentioning Soze.
** Who's to say that [[spoiler: Verbal Kint]] is Keyser in the first place? He may just be another agent, planted by the man himself to divert suspicion. It's not like we ever see him killing the eyewitness on the boat; there may very well have been more than one Keyser Soze gunning down Hungarians that night.
*** To take it into possible WildMassGuessing territory, there may not be a Keyser Soze in the first place. Maybe some guys got together and decided to make an old campfire story into a false identity, designed to scare the willies out of their competition.
*** Keyser Soze is the crime equivalent of Nicholas Bourbaki?
*** You're missing the point. The "Keyser Soze=Satan Incarnate" storyline comes ''entirely from Verbal''. The other officer at the precinct confirms that he's heard of Soze, but doesn't seem to regard him as much more than a run-of-the-mill crime boss. Verbal makes him out to be such a fantastically diabolical figure that Kujan is driven to doubt that he even exists.

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* So Keyser Soze Söze kills off everyone who knows what he looks like, then reveals himself to a policeman just to taunt him?
** He doesn't simply kill anyone who can identify him. The target was special because he could identify Soze Söze and had intimate knowledge of his criminal enterprise. In other words, this one person was both willing and able to send Soze Söze to prison.
** He didn't reveal himself. Kujan didn't realise the story was [[spoiler: fabricated from the noticeboard]] until Soze Söze had left, and the fax with the description didn't come through until after Kujan rushed out.
** I think this was taken care of with the whole "You think a guy like that comes this close to getting caught and sticks his head out? If he comes up for anything, it will be to get rid of me. After that... my guess is you'll never hear from him again." This was the equivalent of the "one last job" before retirement for Kint/Soze.Kint/Söze. His revenge on the Hungarians is complete, he surely has more than enough money and contacts to live totally behind the scenes for the rest of his life. It doesn't matter that the cops have a description or fingerprints, once he's out of the police station - "...and like that, he's gone."
*** How is that not revealing himself? Soze Söze didn't know the fax was coming, but he knew the fact that he used names from the noticeboard would cause Kujan to eventually realize who he was. Which works for me if it's just that he couldn't come up with names on the spot. But if he was doing this deliberately, knowing that it didn't matter if Kujan knew what he looked like since he could just disappear, why did he (try to) kill that other guy?
*** Kujan figuring out the names came from the bulletin board wasn't guaranteed to happen (that wasn't even his regular office, keep in mind), and even if he did realize Verbal was making the whole story up, that would just prove that Verbal Kint was hiding something, not that he was Keyzer Soze.
Söze.
*** I've always maintained that Soze Söze has lost, and lost badly, at the end of this movie, for exactly this reason. At the beginning of the story, Soze Söze initiates the whole plot to kill "the one guy who could identify him." At the end of the film, every law enforcement agency on earth has copies of his mugshot, fingerprints, plus a recording of his voice. On top of which, the authorities also have an eyewitness statement from the badly burned Hungarian implicating Soze Söze in multiple murders, which statement is admissible as evidence under the deathbed statement exception to the hearsay rule. Maybe this film is really a subversion of ''film noir''.
*** I believe Verbal didn't plan to mention Keyser Soze Söze at all. He'd just slam together a story he thought would fit what the police knew, and then be done with it. However, once he found out that they knew that Keyser Soze Söze was somehow involved, he '''had''' to stick more or less to the truth about the incident. That the police knew of Keyser Soze Söze told him that they had an eye witness, and then it was only a matter of time before they could arrest him. Realizing this, Verbal continued his story with Keyser Soze Söze as the great architect behind it all, and in a way so Keaton would be believed to be Mr. Soze.
Söze.
*** That could be true. Notice how Verbal reacts with [[spoiler: "Oh, fuck!!"]] when Kujan asks about Keyser Soze? Söze? Probably, he thought he'd be able to get through without mentioning Soze.
Söze.
** Who's to say that [[spoiler: Verbal Kint]] is Keyser in the first place? He may just be another agent, planted by the man himself to divert suspicion. It's not like we ever see him killing the eyewitness on the boat; there may very well have been more than one Keyser Soze Söze gunning down Hungarians that night.
*** To take it into possible WildMassGuessing territory, there may not be a Keyser Soze Söze in the first place. Maybe some guys got together and decided to make an old campfire story into a false identity, designed to scare the willies out of their competition.
*** Keyser Soze Söze is the crime equivalent of Nicholas Bourbaki?
*** You're missing the point. The "Keyser Soze=Satan Söze=Satan Incarnate" storyline comes ''entirely from Verbal''. The other officer at the precinct confirms that he's heard of Soze, Söze, but doesn't seem to regard him as much more than a run-of-the-mill crime boss. Verbal makes him out to be such a fantastically diabolical figure that Kujan is driven to doubt that he even exists.



*** Yes but that could be because he had heard stories about Keyser Soze. On the other hand, the guy who could identify him was well protected, so either the Hungarian mob believed the stories or they where at least partially true.
** I always thought that the ''real'' reason for the whole mission was not to kill the one guy who could identify Keyser Soze, but rather to kill the people involved in the mission, who (the messenger in any case claims that) Keyser Soze has grudges against.
*** If Soze simple wanted revenge on the other suspects, he could've done it much sooner and easier. It makes more sense that Soze wanted to take out the Hungarians and the witness, and using these guys who had previously wronged him would be a perfect revenge.
** Something else to bear in mind is that, until very near the end, Verbal most likely has no idea that one guy from the ship saw his face, realized he must be Keyser Soze, survived the explosion, and proceeded to talk to the police. As far as he knows, the cops have no reason to even begin to suspect "Verbal Kint = Keyser Soze."
** Keep in mind that the guy who could identify Keyser Soze also ratted out about fifty other criminals. ''Any'' of them could have put out a hit on him.
* This may be more for WildMassGuessing than ItJustBugsMe, but why would Soze allow himself to be brought to the police station in the first place? If he was the only survivor of the incident on the boat (other than the badly burned Hungarian), couldn't he have just walked off into the night before the cops arrived there?

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*** Yes but that could be because he had heard stories about Keyser Soze.Söze. On the other hand, the guy who could identify him was well protected, so either the Hungarian mob believed the stories or they where at least partially true.
** I always thought that the ''real'' reason for the whole mission was not to kill the one guy who could identify Keyser Soze, Söze, but rather to kill the people involved in the mission, who (the messenger in any case claims that) Keyser Soze Söze has grudges against.
*** If Soze Söze simple wanted revenge on the other suspects, he could've done it much sooner and easier. It makes more sense that Soze Söze wanted to take out the Hungarians and the witness, and using these guys who had previously wronged him would be a perfect revenge.
** Something else to bear in mind is that, until very near the end, Verbal most likely has no idea that one guy from the ship saw his face, realized he must be Keyser Soze, Söze, survived the explosion, and proceeded to talk to the police. As far as he knows, the cops have no reason to even begin to suspect "Verbal Kint = Keyser Soze.Söze."
** Keep in mind that the guy who could identify Keyser Soze Söze also ratted out about fifty other criminals. ''Any'' of them could have put out a hit on him.
* This may be more for WildMassGuessing than ItJustBugsMe, but why would Soze Söze allow himself to be brought to the police station in the first place? If he was the only survivor of the incident on the boat (other than the badly burned Hungarian), couldn't he have just walked off into the night before the cops arrived there?



** Pragmatism. If a massive shootout goes on and there are no survivors, that's suspicious. There's going to be an investigation either way. If he (Verbal) is the sole survivor, that's less suspicious plus he's in a position to steer the investigation anyway he wants (such as someone else). But possibly, this wasn't the real plan (getting caught) and he had another plan in place but ended up getting caught anyway. After all, if getting caught was part of the plan, he'd not have to make up a story. Perhaps the original plan was simply get everyone killed so it looked like the suspects (save Verbal) were hunting down Soze (due to their debts) and found out the Hungarian knew his face. They went to make an exchange for the info and the exchange got blotched, resulting in a massive shoot out. Verbal would never have been there and the police would have assumed that, while suspicious, the story makes sense.

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** Pragmatism. If a massive shootout goes on and there are no survivors, that's suspicious. There's going to be an investigation either way. If he (Verbal) is the sole survivor, that's less suspicious plus he's in a position to steer the investigation anyway he wants (such as someone else). But possibly, this wasn't the real plan (getting caught) and he had another plan in place but ended up getting caught anyway. After all, if getting caught was part of the plan, he'd not have to make up a story. Perhaps the original plan was simply get everyone killed so it looked like the suspects (save Verbal) were hunting down Soze Söze (due to their debts) and found out the Hungarian knew his face. They went to make an exchange for the info and the exchange got blotched, resulting in a massive shoot out. Verbal would never have been there and the police would have assumed that, while suspicious, the story makes sense.



* Bugs me: $91 MILLION. In cash. For Keyser Soze? Really?? That much cash would be obscenely heavy and bulky. Also,where would you deposit that much? In cash? W/O hearing about it.

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* Bugs me: $91 MILLION. In cash. For Keyser Soze? Söze? Really?? That much cash would be obscenely heavy and bulky. Also,where would you deposit that much? In cash? W/O hearing about it.



** Plastic surgery doesn't work the way you think it does. And hired assassins still leave a link to the man. Ultimately, he wanted no links at all to connect one to the other. He wanted to remain a myth not be just a guy with a lot of money. And, don't forget that the suspects all had debts to Soze. So Soze can get everyone to kill everyone else for him. Had Verbal not been caught, it may very well had looked like the suspects were hunting down the Hungarian for information on Soze and it looks like they all turned on each other.
*** "And, don't forget that the suspects all had debts to Soze." [[BlatantLies According to who?]]

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** Plastic surgery doesn't work the way you think it does. And hired assassins still leave a link to the man. Ultimately, he wanted no links at all to connect one to the other. He wanted to remain a myth not be just a guy with a lot of money. And, don't forget that the suspects all had debts to Soze. Söze. So Soze Söze can get everyone to kill everyone else for him. Had Verbal not been caught, it may very well had looked like the suspects were hunting down the Hungarian for information on Soze Söze and it looks like they all turned on each other.
*** "And, don't forget that the suspects all had debts to Soze.Söze." [[BlatantLies According to who?]]
8th Apr '16 9:50:03 PM universalperson
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Added DiffLines:

** Keep in mind that the guy who could identify Keyser Soze also ratted out about fifty other criminals. ''Any'' of them could have put out a hit on him.
24th Jul '15 11:08:28 AM ElHel
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Added DiffLines:

** He doesn't simply kill anyone who can identify him. The target was special because he could identify Soze and had intimate knowledge of his criminal enterprise. In other words, this one person was both willing and able to send Soze to prison.
24th May '15 5:18:49 AM BinaryShadow
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* So who killed Edie?

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* So who killed Edie?Edie?
** "Kobayashi" had her transferred to LA for an extradition hearing and had his men on her 24 hours a day. It was most likely a matter of snapping his fingers the moment it became logical to do so (after Keaton confirmed dead and Verbal getting his immunity deal).
20th May '15 10:36:18 PM dmcreif
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* So who killed Edie?



*** Some of the boat stuff takes place after Kujan's "I'll tell you what I know. Stop me when this sounds familiar..." line, which suggests that some of the boat stuff might be guesses by Kujan about the lack of cocaine, the killing or Marquez, etc. In general, I just assume that Verbal and Kujan are just telling guesses bits of information they know, and guesses about what was happening based on what verbal was hearing, and the finer details are being filled in as a movie convention. (Either way, Kujan comes across as someone who would catch obvious oddities in a story pretty quickly, so presumably verbal isn't actually describing details he would have no way of knowing, as Kujan would probably notice pretty quickly.)

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*** Some of the boat stuff takes place after Kujan's "I'll tell you what I know. Stop me when this sounds familiar..." line, which suggests that some of the boat stuff might be guesses by Kujan about the lack of cocaine, the killing or Marquez, etc. In general, I just assume that Verbal and Kujan are just telling guesses bits of information they know, and guesses about what was happening based on what verbal was hearing, and the finer details are being filled in as a movie convention. (Either way, Kujan comes across as someone who would catch obvious oddities in a story pretty quickly, so presumably verbal isn't actually describing details he would have no way of knowing, as Kujan would probably notice pretty quickly.))
* So who killed Edie?
20th May '15 10:35:47 PM dmcreif
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Added DiffLines:

*So who killed Edie?
25th Dec '14 3:59:24 AM PvZpro
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Added DiffLines:

** I think Kint set up some kind of deal to avoid prosection. I may be wrong but the reason he is talking with Kujan at all is because he signed a plea of immunity for testifying against the others who are dead. Kujan states that he read the report and thinks Kint is full of it and Keaton was behind everything.
25th Dec '14 2:11:04 AM UncleBubba
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** I think most people were referring to the end of the film when they say that. How could Kint know how each of the members died? I mean sure he saw Keaton get shot (in his story anyway) but how did he know that Mcmanus died with a knife in his neck? How did he know that there was no dope on the boat when he was on the dock faraway from the other members ? I think people had these questions in mind when saying that theory.

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** I think most people were referring to the end of the film when they say that. How could Kint know how each of the members died? I mean sure he saw Keaton get shot (in his story anyway) but how did he know that Mcmanus died with a knife in his neck? How did he know that there was no dope on the boat when he was on the dock faraway from the other members ? I think people had these questions in mind when saying that theory. theory.
** How did he know? Because he wasn't on the dock. *He* killed Hockney, McManus, and Keaton, that's how he knew.
22nd Jul '14 12:59:53 PM CaptainCrawdad
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* Why does the DVD menu give away the surprise ending? Is this because ItWasHisSled?
** Well, we gave it away here. Did you expect them to keep it a secret after they had your money?
10th Feb '14 8:42:02 PM Pickly
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** Remember Kint is an UnreliableNarrator. We don't actually know how much he says is true. Kujan knows about the lineup. But we don't even know if the gang was involved in the Taxi Service job or Saul Berg's murder, or if Kint is just taking credit. Nobody who is alive knows what "Kobayashi" said to them or who he really was. Even the fence "Redfoot" may or may not exist. They know that there was $91 million in cash at the dock, supposedly to buy cocaine that was never there. All that Kujan really knows for sure is that five guys were arrested for a hijacking in New York, released, and then six weeks later four of them turn up dead in California or go missing, and Kint is the only known survivor.

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** Remember Kint is an UnreliableNarrator. We don't actually know how much he says is true. Kujan knows about the lineup. But we don't even know if the gang was involved in the Taxi Service job or Saul Berg's murder, or if Kint is just taking credit. Nobody who is alive knows what "Kobayashi" said to them or who he really was. Even the fence "Redfoot" may or may not exist. They know that there was $91 million in cash at the dock, supposedly to buy cocaine that was never there. All that Kujan really knows for sure is that five guys were arrested for a hijacking in New York, released, and then six weeks later four of them turn up dead in California or go missing, and Kint is the only known survivor.survivor.
*** Some of the boat stuff takes place after Kujan's "I'll tell you what I know. Stop me when this sounds familiar..." line, which suggests that some of the boat stuff might be guesses by Kujan about the lack of cocaine, the killing or Marquez, etc. In general, I just assume that Verbal and Kujan are just telling guesses bits of information they know, and guesses about what was happening based on what verbal was hearing, and the finer details are being filled in as a movie convention. (Either way, Kujan comes across as someone who would catch obvious oddities in a story pretty quickly, so presumably verbal isn't actually describing details he would have no way of knowing, as Kujan would probably notice pretty quickly.)
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