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** Karen was a lot closer with Matt than with Frank, not to mention being on the verge of starting a relationship with Matt. She knew Matt as Matt Murdock, and saw how being Daredevil was ruining what she viewed as his real life. Frank has no real life. And Karen doesn’t fully approve anyway. She would prefer he be doing something else, she just knows that trying to convince him of that is pointless.

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** Karen was a lot closer with Matt than with Frank, not to mention being on the verge of starting a relationship with Matt. She knew Matt as Matt Murdock, and saw how being Daredevil was ruining what she viewed as his real life. Frank has no real life. And Karen doesn’t fully approve anyway. She would prefer he Frank be doing something else, she just knows that trying to convince him of that is pointless.pointless. Put it another way, Karen is just hoping that Matt doesn’t wind up dead, in prison, maimed, psychotic, or disbarred, whereas the best that Frank can really hope for is “not dead yet.”
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**Karen is more worried about Matt as a person. She’s hoping Matt doesn’t wind up dead, in prison, maimed, psychotic or disbarred. The best Frank can really hope for is “not dead yet.”


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**Senators do not typically get Secret Service. The exceptions are when they’re running for President, when they happen to have an immediate family who served as president/vice president (like Hillary Clinton), when they’re travelling overseas, or if they’re leadership (Speaker of the House, Senate Leader, etc). You could make a case that since there was indeed a threat against the Senator and Karen, hiring private security would not be out of the question or Secret Service would indeed get involved. You might even have the NYPD or the New York State Police on hand. What is ridiculous is that the private security they did hire were wearing uniforms. For the kind of money I assume is changing hands for a premium outfit like Anvil, and to have them in an environment where they are guarding and essentially staffing a high profile Senator who is sensitive about the appearance of hired security, those guys would be plain clothes/wearing cheap suits.
**Senator Ori has probably denied the need of a Secret Service detail in order to keep up the public image that he is strong against gun violence and does not want to rely on guns as part of his message. The Anvil contract, that can be buried and, being a private organization, Russo can claim that the ''Bulletin'' hired him to protect Karen Page. And the low number of guards is intentional: Russo is treating this as a honeypot, much like earlier in the season. Basically, Russo is setting up Senator Ori as bait for Lewis, because Frank will go where Lewis will go, and that will give Russo an opening to take Frank out. Once the dust settled, Russo was probably planning to unleash backup support for the Senator's campaign, but that didn't work out because Madani caught on to the fact that he was the one who killed Sam.


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[[folder:“We must not tolerate those who use violence to communicate"]]
* That's what Karen writes in her op-ed about Lewis. Why does that critique not extend to her old pal Frank, but does apply to Matt? I find it weird how Karen approves of Frank going on a homicidal rampage of revenge but wasn’t ok with Matt beating bad guys up and leaving them for the cops.
**Lewis is using violence to communicate a manifesto. Frank isn’t trying to communicate at all; he’s trying to kill specific people who he knows hurt him. Both are bad, but Frank is not actively targeting innocent people and tries to minimize collateral damage, whereas Lewis has no regard whatsoever for collateral damage. As for the apparent hypocrisy on Karen's end regarding Matt, she did not want her boyfriend to end up like Frank. As much as Karen cares for Frank, she knows there’s ultimately no coming back from where he is—she’d hoped Matt could stop before crossing that event horizon, but then he apparently got himself killed in Midland Circle.
**Karen holds Matt to a higher standard, because she misses being the girlfriend of a lawyer, which, even when taking Matt's double life into account, probably felt healthier for her than being the gun moll of a vigilante.
** Karen is not okay with Frank being a mass-murderer. She certainly does view Frank as justified in wanting revenge, but whenever she witnesses the results of Frank going full Punisher on some poor, evil bastards, the results terrify and appall her: the two guys he killed at that diner, and his confrontation with the Blacksmith being prime examples. Besides, you can't really apply logic to Karen’s thought processes. She’s a traumatized person who’s been to hell and back, who also killed Wesley, and at the time of ''The Punisher'' is also secretly having to hide the fact she's mourning the death of her boyfriend (and she can't openly mourn Matt because the NYPD covered up Midland Circle). She can cover it up with a nice smile, but she’s as deranged as Matt and Frank in her own way. The only 100% normal person across the ''Daredevil'' and ''Punisher'' series is Foggy.
**Karen was a lot closer with Matt than with Frank, not to mention being on the verge of starting a relationship with Matt. She knew Matt as Matt Murdock, and saw how being Daredevil was ruining what she viewed as his real life. Frank has no real life. And Karen doesn’t fully approve anyway. She would prefer he be doing something else, she just knows that trying to convince him of that is pointless.

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** Like Matt said when he visited Fisk in prison, the city is part of them, they can leave but always come back. Frank possibly has the same attachment to it.

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** Like When you live in one location for long enough, you can be said to have laid down roots there. It's like what Matt said when he visited Fisk in prison, the city is part of them, they can leave but always come back. Frank possibly has It's the same attachment to it.thing for Frank, since this is where he lived when he had his family, and it's where he met Curtis and Russo.



*** A wounded soldier talking about Frank Castle would raise eyebrows, but a ''dead'' soldier would be cause for active federal investigations by NCIS/ACIS, which would be much more damaging. The soldier can talk about who he met all he wants, but without video evidence it's just the hearsay of a wounded kid who was frightened and might have been misremembering things.

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*** A wounded soldier talking about Frank Castle would raise eyebrows, but a ''dead'' soldier would be cause for active federal investigations by NCIS/ACIS, which would be much more damaging. The soldier can talk about who he met all he wants, but without video evidence it's just the hearsay of a wounded kid who was frightened and might have been misremembering imagining things.



** The NYPD, and law enforcement in general, are bureaucracies. This has been pretty well established by ''Daredevil'' and ''Luke Cage'' (which both heavily involved the NYPD through their respective uses of Brett Mahoney and Misty Knight) and is peppered throughout Dinah's storyline on ''The Punisher''. Inner department politics matter. You say something against the narrative, and you're done. So many of the officers that were on the scene are probably going to either lie about it or not talk about it. Like the 'death' of Karen's boyfriend, the truth gets buried because the NYPD would rather the public believe a lie than admit a hard truth.
** Remember that Brett was skeptical of Karen's account of what happened at the hotel, and he's friends with Karen, given his close association with Nelson & Murdock. Curtis was Frank's friend, so it makes sense. Plus, all we know is that Frank was wanted for questioning into the bombings after he was seen on a squad car's dashcam attacking two police officers before stealing one of their cars. The newspaper headlines could have just been sensationalized. Either way after his actions at O'Connor's house would render him Public Enemy Number One status.

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** The NYPD, and law enforcement in general, are bureaucracies. This has been pretty well established by ''Daredevil'' and ''Luke Cage'' (which both heavily involved the NYPD through their respective uses of Brett Mahoney and Misty Knight) and is peppered throughout Dinah's storyline on ''The Punisher''. Inner Punisher'': inner department politics matter. You say something against the narrative, and you're done. So many of the officers that were on the scene are probably going to either lie about it or not talk about it. Like the 'death' of Karen's boyfriend, the truth gets buried because the NYPD would rather the public believe a lie than admit a hard truth.
** Remember that Brett was skeptical of Karen's account of what happened at the hotel, and he's friends with Karen, given his close association with Nelson & Murdock. Curtis was Frank's friend, so it makes sense. Plus, all we know is that Frank was wanted for questioning into the bombings after he was seen on a squad car's dashcam attacking two police officers before stealing one of their cars. The newspaper headlines could have just been sensationalized. Either way after his way, Frank's actions at O'Connor's house would render him Public Enemy Number One status.



** Nothing would have really changed if Frank had let Russo know he was still alive. Russo wouldn't have made any moves against Frank until the firefight in the forest.



** It's more likely to be David than be some of Russo's men, because Russo's men wouldn't want to risk a firefight in a neighborhood like that with lots of potential witnesses.

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** It's more likely to be David than be some of It was Russo's men, because Russo's men wouldn't want to risk a firefight men. There were multiple people in a neighborhood like that with lots of potential witnesses.van.



*** It should also be noted that she saw Wolf shoot David after shouting "he has a weapon". She knew David didn't have a weapon and wasn't threatening anyone, not to mention that the reason why David was shot in the first place was because he uncovered a conspiracy, so Sarah has good reason to be skeptical of law enforcement at this point.

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*** It should also be noted that she Sarah saw Wolf shoot David after shouting "he has a weapon". She knew David didn't have a weapon and wasn't threatening anyone, not to mention that the reason why David was shot in the first place was because he uncovered a conspiracy, very dangerous information, so Sarah has good reason to be skeptical of law enforcement at this point.



** The only thing we know for certain is that ''The Punisher'' takes place during the time in between ''The Defenders'' and ''Daredevil'' season 3 where Matt is presumed to be dead following the destruction of Midland Circle. We know this from Karen’s general state of mourning, as well as the simple fact that if Matt were still alive and kicking, there’s no way he would have sat on the sidelines once Lewis publicly threatened Karen[[note]]Remember that he was tipped into freakout mode when the Hand kidnapped Karen, and his immediate reaction to Sowande threatening the heroes' loved ones was to immediately run to Karen's office[[/note]]. How long after ''The Defenders'' that the events of ''The Punisher'' take place, though, is hard to tell. Though it may be immediately afterwards, since the Empire State Building is lit up in red in Matt's memory in the first episode when Frank is working on the construction site, and in episode 2, Ellison can be seen holding a newspaper copy headlined "Chaos Under the Streets."
** 11 months appears to be the time gap from ''Daredevil'' season 2 to ''The Punisher'' season 1, given Madani's remark in the first episode about Schoonover's death and the boat explosion happening "last year", the November setting of ''The Punisher'', and ''Daredevil'' season 2 ending at Christmas. It probably took until about April for Frank to finish off the gangs who were at the park, which means he spent about four months of time on the road hunting down targets before he did the kill in JFK and then retired to work on the construction site.

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** The only thing we know for certain is that ''The Punisher'' takes place during the time in between ''The Defenders'' and ''Daredevil'' season 3 where Matt is presumed to be dead following the destruction of Midland Circle. We know this from Karen’s general state of mourning, mourning and wardrobe choices[[note]]Primarily blacks and blues, the colors of sadness and mourning[[/note]], as well as the simple fact that if Matt were still alive and kicking, there’s no way he would have sat on the sidelines once Lewis publicly threatened Karen[[note]]Remember that he was tipped into freakout mode when the Hand kidnapped Karen, and his immediate reaction to Sowande threatening the heroes' loved ones was to immediately run to Karen's office[[/note]]. How long after ''The Defenders'' that the events of ''The Punisher'' take place, though, is hard harder to tell. Could be a few weeks. Though it may be immediately more likely, it's a week or two afterwards, since the Empire State Building is lit up in red in Matt's memory in the first episode when Frank is working on the construction site, and in episode 2, Ellison can be seen holding a newspaper copy headlined "Chaos Under the Streets."
** 11 months appears to be the time gap from ''Daredevil'' season 2 to ''The Punisher'' season 1, given Madani's remark in the first episode about Schoonover's death and the boat explosion happening "last year", the November setting of ''The Punisher'', and ''Daredevil'' season 2 ending at Christmas. It probably took until about April for Frank to finish off the gangs who were at the park, which means he spent about four months of time on the road hunting down targets before he did (especially factoring in all the kill in JFK cross-country driving he must have done) and then retired to work on the construction site.
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[[folder:What if Frank had maintained contact with Russo?]]
*So, in the last episode, Curtis mentions how Frank wanted Russo to think he was dead because he thought he was protecting Russo in doing so (understandable, given Frank didn't know Russo was in league with Schoonover and Rawlins). But what if Frank had stayed in contact with Russo in addition to Curtis, following the boat explosion?
**It wouldn't have changed much, if anything. On Russo's end, he'd feel nothing to worry about so long as Frank thinks he's punished all the people who killed his family. It's entirely possible Russo would have made a mention to Frank about Madani asking about him well before episode 6, and he certainly wouldn't mention to Rawlins that Frank was still around. Like in the actual story, Russo would have been forced to start making moves against Frank once the gunfight in the forest happened.
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***Matt is not a killer. And Midland Circle was technically special circumstances given the Hand leaders would never be held back by a jury.
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*** Karen's a killer, even Matt is a killer, why would she feel bad Frank killed people that tried to kill him? because she got her involved? She does that too when on the rope. The diner was not the last moment they spent together either he saved her from the colonel later even if she is not that happy about it.

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** Lewis never faced his enemies. He bombed innocent people instead. Additionally, there are multiple instances of Frank going right out in the open to shoot his enemies (like when he went after Grotto at the hospital, or used Karen as bait to lure two of Schoonover's operatives to the diner) and he even wears the skull the emblem for the explicit purpose of having his foes see him coming. Even the grenade scene involved him walking up to the thieves, only a few feet away and using a dud as opposed to setting a bomb and leaving the scene. As for the morality of his actions, Frank is very much an AntiHero whose actions are never fully justified.

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** Lewis never faced his enemies. He bombed innocent people instead. Additionally, there are multiple instances of Frank going right out in the open to shoot his enemies (like when he went after Grotto at the hospital, or used Karen as bait to lure two of Schoonover's operatives to the diner) and he even wears the skull the emblem for the explicit purpose of having his foes see him coming. Even the grenade scene at the shop involved him walking up to the thieves, only a few feet away and using a dud as opposed to setting a bomb and leaving the scene. As for the morality of his actions, Frank is very much an AntiHero whose actions are never fully justified.



** Frank is basically drawing the line between terrorist and vigilante as he sees it. He actively targets those society at large generally would consider criminals, but who have mostly escaped the consequences of their actions through corrupt means. In short, when he uses fear and/or indirect methods, it's targeted at those who have convinced themselves they no longer have to worry about fallout, and who he is trying to trace or work towards: and, they very quickly ''know'' who is gunning for them and, more specifically, ''why'' from almost the start, since he tells them (even when he should still pretend to be dead, he talks directly to body cameras). Even if their unhappy goons may not have a clue who is handing out the knuckle sandwich with complimentary sides of bullets and death: however, most goons he takes out know that doing shady shit has risks, even if they hoped never to meet them. When Frank gets a bystander killed, it's usually an accident or honest mistake (which, granted, doesn't undo the carnage). Lewis, however, doesn't make this distinction from the get-go: ''anybody'' associated with those "against" him is a valid target in his eyes. He hits as many people as possible with indiscriminate means to sow fear in those who have not done anything actively illegal by any measure but his own and/or who simply have a job or opinion he doesn't agree with. And, he hits people who have no reason to see him coming without warning: his anonymous letter is after the fact. It's a fine distinction and YMMV on how much is due to delusion, but it's Frank's.

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** Frank is basically drawing the line between terrorist and vigilante as he sees it. He actively targets those society at large generally would consider criminals, but who have mostly escaped the consequences of their actions through corrupt means. In short, when he uses fear and/or indirect methods, it's targeted at those who have convinced themselves they no longer have to worry about fallout, and who he is trying to trace or work towards: and, they very quickly ''know'' who is gunning for them and, more specifically, ''why'' from almost the start, since he tells them (even when he should still pretend to be dead, he talks directly to the body cameras).cameras on the mercenaries who targeted him in the forest). Even if their unhappy goons may not have a clue who is handing out the knuckle sandwich with complimentary sides of bullets and death: however, most goons he takes out know that doing shady shit has risks, even if they hoped never to meet them. When Frank gets a bystander killed, it's usually an accident or honest mistake (which, granted, doesn't undo the carnage). Lewis, however, doesn't make this distinction from the get-go: ''anybody'' associated with those "against" him is a valid target in his eyes. He hits as many people as possible with indiscriminate means to sow fear in those who have not done anything actively illegal by any measure but his own and/or who simply have a job or opinion he doesn't agree with. And, he hits people who have no reason to see him coming without warning: warning. Remember that his anonymous letter is manifesto to Karen happened after the fact. It's a fine distinction and YMMV on how much is due to delusion, but it's Frank's.



** I got the impression that Karen is getting more of a devil-may-care attitude after Matt's death. She invites the ''Punisher'' of all people into her apartment, and offers him alcohol. Knowing just how violent he is, and the fact that last time she did something similar she got shot at, she is remarkably blase about her own safety (Frank may be an ally but you don't offer someone like him booze). Her kindness is also an example of looking for a human connection after losing Matt. The last time she spoke to Frank, she literally told him he would be dead to her if he shot Colonel Schoonover, which he did almost immediately. Her reaction to seeing him on the street is a lot warmer than you would expect. With Karen's boyfriend having just died (the Empire State Building is still lit up in red in Matt's memory when Frank is working on the construction site) and Foggy having too little time as it is due to being invested in Hogarth Chao & Benowitz (not to mention Karen probably feels she ''can't'' have a conversation with Foggy without feeling Matt's absence looming over them), she is looking for any human connection.
** In Frank's interactions with Karen, Matt is basically the elephant in the room. Frank is tiptoeing around the issue of Matt's death. For example, when he meets Karen, he doesn't say something like "How have you been?" because he knows damn well that her boyfriend just died, and saying something like that doesn't show much tact (and it's pretty clear from the relative ease with which Frank found Karen that he's probably been keeping tabs on her). He also avoids subjects like her new job, because asking about it would lead to asking Karen why she left Nelson & Murdock (which inevitably would mean having to talk about Matt), or him asking Karen why she is being so nice to him after he was supposedly dead to her.
** From a storytelling perspective, it kinda makes sense why Matt's "death" isn't mentioned: ''The Punisher'' was designed to be a stand-alone story, and designed to not rely on viewers having watched the other shows. A show's writing needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story. Now, ''The Punisher'' wasn't entirely successful in that part, since Frank was introduced in ''Daredevil'' Season 2, and the Colonel Schoonover plotline from that show is what sets up the events of this show, but for the most part the show remains pretty isolated. Most likely, the writers thought that mentioning Matt’s "death" would be too confusing for first-time viewers who hadn’t watched ''The Defenders'' or ''Daredevil''. So they settled for small acknowledgements– the photo in her apartment, her state of sadness throughout the show, etc.– things that were meaningful to ''Daredevil'' fans without being overt.\\

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** I got the impression that Karen is getting more of a devil-may-care attitude after Matt's death. She invites the ''Punisher'' of all people into her apartment, and offers him alcohol. Knowing just how violent he is, and the fact that last time she did something similar she got shot at, she is remarkably blase about her own safety (Frank may be an ally but you don't offer someone like him booze). Her kindness is also an example of looking for a human connection after losing Matt. The last time she spoke to Frank, she literally told him he would be dead to her if he shot Colonel Schoonover, which he did almost immediately. Her reaction to seeing him on the street is a lot warmer than you would expect. With Karen's boyfriend having just died (the Empire State Building is still lit up in red in Matt's memory when Frank is working on the construction site) site), and Karen also being cut off from Foggy having too little time as it is due to being invested in Hogarth Chao & Benowitz (not to mention (it seems implied that Karen probably feels she ''can't'' have a conversation with Foggy without feeling Matt's absence looming over them), is going through some sort of depressive episode), she is looking for any human connection.
** In Frank's interactions with Karen, Matt is basically the elephant in the room. Frank is tiptoeing around the issue of Matt's death. For example, when he meets Karen, he doesn't say something like "How have you been?" or "How's Murdock doing? He still running in those red pajamas of his?" because he knows damn well that her boyfriend just died, and saying something like that doesn't show much tact (and it's pretty clear from the relative ease with which Frank found Karen that he's probably been keeping tabs on her).tact. He also avoids subjects like her new job, because asking about it would lead to asking Karen why she left Nelson & Murdock (which inevitably would mean having to talk about Matt), or him asking Karen why she is being so nice to him after he was supposedly dead to her.
** From a storytelling perspective, it kinda makes sense why Matt's "death" isn't mentioned: discussed: ''The Punisher'' was designed to be a stand-alone story, and designed to not rely on viewers having watched the other shows. A show's writing needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story. Now, ''The Punisher'' wasn't entirely successful in that part, since Frank was introduced in ''Daredevil'' Season 2, and the Colonel Schoonover plotline from that show is what sets up the events of this show, but for the most part the show remains pretty isolated. Most likely, the writers thought that mentioning Matt’s "death" would be too confusing for first-time viewers who hadn’t watched ''The Defenders'' or ''Daredevil''. So they settled for small acknowledgements– the photo in her apartment, her state of sadness throughout the show, etc.– things that were meaningful to ''Daredevil'' fans without being overt.\\



** At the ''Punisher'' ACE Comic-Con panel in January 2018, Jon Bernthal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach said that in fact a scene ''had'' been shot where Frank talked with Karen about Matt and Matt "death" was discussed, but it was cut for various reasons.[[note]]This possibly was either in between Frank approaching Karen on the street and walking into her apartment. But more likely, it was part of the conversation they have by the bridge in episode 5. That conversation has them discussing things like Karen wanting Frank to have an 'after', the need to keep each other safe, Karen's comments about being alone, etc. Thematically, making the conversation on her end be about Matt would slot in very neatly[[/note]] On the same token, though, it's possible that ''The Punisher'' couldn't discuss Karen's state of mourning due to outside factors. Namely, that since ''Daredevil'' is Karen's home show, her reaction to Matt's "death" is something that needs to be saved for season 3 of ''Daredevil'', not for ''The Punisher''. I can see how maybe Lightfoot and Bernthal wanted to do that bit, ultimately the conversation about Matt was probably cut because it would risk having huge impacts on how Karen is portrayed in ''Daredevil'' season 3. From a writing standpoint, it makes sense that they could've explored it, but on a grander scale, it just had to be edited out.
*** In addition, from a showrunner's perspective,

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** At the ''Punisher'' ACE Comic-Con panel in January 2018, Jon Bernthal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach said that in fact a scene ''had'' been shot where Frank talked with Karen about Matt and Matt Matt's "death" was discussed, but it was cut for various reasons.[[note]]This possibly was either in between Frank approaching Karen on the street and walking into her apartment. But more likely, it was part of the conversation they have by the bridge in episode 5. That conversation has them discussing things like Karen wanting Frank to have an 'after', the need to keep each other safe, Karen's comments about being alone, etc. Thematically, making the conversation on her end be about Matt would slot in very neatly[[/note]] On the same token, though, it's possible that ''The Punisher'' couldn't discuss Karen's state of mourning due to outside factors. Namely, that since ''Daredevil'' is Karen's home show, her reaction to Matt's "death" is something that needs to be saved for season 3 of ''Daredevil'', not for ''The Punisher''. I can see how maybe Lightfoot and Bernthal wanted to do that bit, ultimately the conversation about Matt was probably cut because it would risk having huge impacts on how Karen is portrayed in ''Daredevil'' season 3. From a writing standpoint, it makes sense that they could've explored it, but on a grander scale, it just had to be edited out. \n*** In addition, from a showrunner's perspective,



** Yes, it's a little odd that Frank didn't ask about Matt after everything they went through in season 2 of ''Daredevil'', ESPECIALLY with Karen being around. But look at things from his perspective: Frank never really had any time to just chat with Karen. He only ever reached out to her when he needed to hit her up for information or when he was protecting her from some imminent threat. Then there's that scene in the courtroom Frank's trial where it's heavily suggested that Frank picked up on who Matt really is, but it was never brought up. This means that Frank doesn't know that Karen knows Matt is Daredevil. If that's the case, it would seem pretty odd for Frank to ask about Matt considering that they made it a point in ''Daredevil'' Season 2 that Matt wasn't actually working on Frank's case as much as the others, instead being interested in helping Elektra fight ninjas. If anything, it would've made more sense for Frank to ask about Foggy.

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** Yes, it's a little odd that Frank didn't ask about Matt after everything they went through in season 2 of ''Daredevil'', ESPECIALLY with Karen being around. But look at things you have to remember that all of Karen's scenes with Frank in ''Daredevil'' were being told from his Karen's perspective. Try seeing the interactions from Frank's perspective: Frank never really had any time to just chat with Karen. He only ever reached out to her when he needed to hit her up for information or when he was protecting her from some imminent threat. Then there's that scene in the courtroom at Frank's trial where it's heavily suggested that Frank picked up on who Matt really is, but it was never brought up. This means that Frank doesn't might not know that Karen knows Matt is Daredevil. If that's the case, it would seem pretty odd for Frank to ask about Matt considering that they made it a point in ''Daredevil'' Season 2 that Matt wasn't actually working on Frank's case as much as the others, instead being interested in helping Elektra fight ninjas. If anything, it would've made more sense for Frank to ask about Foggy.

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***Technically, one would think Karen would be a lot more against vigilante justice no matter the price here, given what happened to Matt. Not just "100% against, except when there's a bad guy."



***My biggest question is what would Matt think of her choices here?



***She should be mad at Frank because he is a killer. They split on bad terms because Frank is a killer. You don't remember the scenes of Karen crying because Frank killed two people with a knife in that diner?



*** Why does she gets to do whatever she needs to defend herself but other people don't? Bystanders in Marvel New York have an even worse time than her on a general basis, at least she has a bunch of superheroes or an ex military with a bunch of guns looking after her if a terrorist blow stuff up. Besides PTSD is really pushing, she recovers fast seen with her chatting with Foggy after he just saved her from thugs, smile at hobo Frank despite their last reunion having him execute a guy and even wrote an editorial about how strong people in New York are after the ninja thing. Not everyone break down in real life either and pretending gun control debate doesn't involve handgun is silly. The character who keeps supporting the Punisher is gonna be against guns unless you are a reporter that deliberately provoke criminals because she used guns before? Yes it's kind of crazy to think that Karen is suddenly a FragileFlower when she willfully risks her life for the truth no matter how many time people got hurt for it.
*** That Karen isn't diagnosed with severe PTSD is just artistic license: in the world of fiction, unless the PTSD is crucial to the plot, characters are supernaturally resilient to trauma so that they can continue being active participants in the plot. Just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep it up despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]

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*** Why does she gets get to do whatever she needs to defend herself but other people don't? Bystanders in Marvel New York have an even worse time than her on a general basis, basis. Compared to the average bystander, Karen at least she has a bunch of superheroes or an ex military ex-Marine with a bunch of guns looking after there to save her if a terrorist blow stuff up. something happens to her. Besides PTSD is really pushing, she recovers fast seen with her chatting with Foggy after he just saved her from thugs, smile the thugs at Elena's place, she was friendly with hobo Frank despite their last reunion having ending with him execute executing a guy and she even wrote an editorial about how strong people in New York are after the ninja thing. being kidnapped by ninjas. Not everyone break breaks down in real life either and pretending gun control debate doesn't involve handgun is silly.either. The character who keeps supporting the Punisher is gonna be against guns unless you are a reporter that deliberately provoke criminals because she used guns before? Yes it's kind of crazy to think that Karen is suddenly a FragileFlower when she willfully risks her life for the truth no matter how many time people got hurt for it.
*** That ****As I said, by real-world standards, Karen isn't diagnosed with ''should'' have severe PTSD is just artistic license: from all of the above incidents. She certainly had it after killing Wesley (because there's no other explanation for why she'd be having nightmares of Fisk coming to kill her right after the shooting). However, she doesn't act like someone who should have PTSD. Probably because in the world of fiction, unless the PTSD is crucial to the plot, characters are supernaturally resilient to trauma so that they can continue being to be active participants in the plot. Just plot, that is, unless the PTSD is crucial to the plot or a character's personality (like with Frank or with Jessica Jones). It's just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep it up fighting despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]]]
**Here's the thing about her stance: Karen literally argues that Frank killing is okay, he's not a home grown terrorist because he's only killing bad people, and then two minutes later she also says terrible things happen to people every day, it doesn't make them kill people. Which was Matt's argument to Frank during ''Daredevil'' season 2.

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** From a storytelling perspective, it kinda makes sense why Matt's "death" isn't mentioned: ''The Punisher'' was designed to be a stand-alone story, and that means making every effort to not put in things that might confuse someone that doesn't know anything about the other shows. Obviously, the writing didn't succeed in that part, since Frank was introduced in ''Daredevil'' Season 2, and the Colonel Schoonover plotline from that show is what shapes the events of ''The Punisher'', but for the most part it remains pretty isolated. Most likely, the writers thought that mentioning Matt’s "death" would be too confusing for first-time viewers who hadn’t watched ''The Defenders'' or ''Daredevil''. Furthermore, Marvel has a reputation for keeping scripts and plot details closely guarded. Couple that with the fact that ''The Punisher'' was being filmed at the same time as ''The Defenders''[[note]]And in fact, ''The Punisher'' started shooting a full month before ''The Defenders'' did[[/note]], it's also possible that ''The Punisher'' writers and Deborah Ann Woll didn't know at that point in time that Matt would/was going to "die", and so couldn't account for it in their scripts.

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** From a storytelling perspective, it kinda makes sense why Matt's "death" isn't mentioned: ''The Punisher'' was designed to be a stand-alone story, and that means making every effort designed to not put in things that might confuse someone that doesn't know anything about rely on viewers having watched the other shows. Obviously, the A show's writing didn't succeed needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story. Now, ''The Punisher'' wasn't entirely successful in that part, since Frank was introduced in ''Daredevil'' Season 2, and the Colonel Schoonover plotline from that show is what shapes sets up the events of ''The Punisher'', this show, but for the most part it the show remains pretty isolated. Most likely, the writers thought that mentioning Matt’s "death" would be too confusing for first-time viewers who hadn’t watched ''The Defenders'' or ''Daredevil''. So they settled for small acknowledgements– the photo in her apartment, her state of sadness throughout the show, etc.– things that were meaningful to ''Daredevil'' fans without being overt.\\
Furthermore, Marvel has a reputation for keeping scripts and plot details closely guarded. Couple that with the fact that ''The Punisher'' was being filmed at the same time as ''The Defenders''[[note]]And in fact, ''The Punisher'' started shooting a full month before ''The Defenders'' did[[/note]], it's also possible that ''The Punisher'' writers and Deborah Ann Woll didn't know at that point in time that Matt would/was going to "die", and so couldn't account for it in their scripts.



*** In addition, from a showrunner's perspective, a show's writing needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story.

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*** In addition, from a showrunner's perspective, a show's writing needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story. perspective,
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*** That Karen isn't diagnosed with severe PTSD is just artistic license: in the world of fiction, characters are supernaturally resilient so that they can continue being active participants in the plot. Just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep it up despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]

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*** That Karen isn't diagnosed with severe PTSD is just artistic license: in the world of fiction, unless the PTSD is crucial to the plot, characters are supernaturally resilient to trauma so that they can continue being active participants in the plot. Just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep it up despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]

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** He barely put any effort, he had Schoonover doing it who wanted to also kill competition in the heroin market or something and never bothered checking if Frank was dead. It's only when Frank started really gunning for him that he started being obsessed about it because he was scared. Makes sense too after becoming the Punisher Frank lost a shit ton of credibility as witness and having his family murdered is punishment enough.

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** He barely put any effort, he had Schoonover doing it who wanted to also kill competition in the heroin market or something and never bothered checking if Frank was dead. It's only when Frank started really gunning for him that he started being obsessed about it because he was scared. Makes sense too after becoming the Punisher Punisher, Frank lost a shit ton of credibility as witness and having his family murdered is punishment enough.



** Maybe when he started feeling threatened about the black ops he found, I hope he doesn't put that many cameras when it's cool.

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** Maybe when he started feeling threatened about the black ops he found, I hope found. He probably had them all wired in before he doesn't put that many cameras when it's cool.faked his own death.



** Billy starts trying to radio Frank with the old unit calls before Dinah tells him Frank is alive. Rawlins didn't know Frank was alive until seeing him on the Anvil mercenaries' helmet cam. The mercenaries were sent to the forest to kill Gunner. They went in there expecting that Gunner was going to be alone but prepared to fight back (and they'd risk a casualty or two before they took him down). They got wiped out because Frank coincidentally happened to decide to hunt down Gunner and luckily was there in time to help Gunner tag-team the mercs, with David's air support with the drone. Most likely Rawlins told Russo that Frank was alive after the attack in the forest. That in fact is what Russo is talking about when he tells Madani he had a shitty day: he's having a shitty day because he's learned Frank is alive and Frank just killed nine of his men. So between trysts with Madani, Russo tried making unit calls to Frank. Madani later let him know once she identified Frank's blood from the forest, so Russo learned the same thing almost at the same time from two sources. Then Russo went to Curtis because he figured that Frank wouldn't stray far from his roots and due to the Marine code of honor, that Frank would have remained in touch with Curtis.

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** Billy starts trying to radio Frank with the old unit calls before Dinah Madani tells him Frank is alive. Rawlins Based on Rawlins' reactions, he didn't know Frank was alive until seeing him on the Anvil mercenaries' helmet cam.cameras. The mercenaries were sent to the forest to kill Gunner. They went in there expecting that Gunner was going to be alone but prepared to fight back (and they'd risk lose a casualty or two couple before they took him down).out). They got wiped out because Frank coincidentally happened to decide to hunt down Gunner and luckily was there in time to help Gunner tag-team the mercs, with David's air support with the drone. Most likely Rawlins told Russo that Frank was alive after the attack in the forest. That in fact is what Russo is talking about when he tells Madani he had a shitty day: he's having a shitty day because he's learned Frank is alive and Frank just killed nine of his men. So between trysts with Madani, Russo tried making unit calls to Frank. Madani later let him know once she identified Frank's blood from the forest, so Russo learned the same thing almost at the same time from two sources. Then Russo went to Curtis because he figured that Frank wouldn't stray far from his home roots and due to the Marine code of honor, that was getting help from someone he knows, which equals Curtis because he's someone Frank would have remained in touch with Curtis.and Russo know very well.



* The series seems to imply that the world thinks Frank died on the exploding boat in Daredevil Season 2, despite appearing afterwards in public and sniping the Hand ninjas. One of the pages on this wiki says this is a retcon, but Frank is wearing the Punisher outfit he was using for that specific ninja scene, which he never wore again in ''Daredevil''. Did only Karen and Matt recognize the skull-chested sniper killing ninjas in that scene?
** Well for starter no, [[DisabilitySuperpower Matt did not see the skull]] and he never wore a skull during season 2 until the last episode so even if someone see it they don't know it's the Punisher logo. Karen only knows Frank isn't dead because he saved her from Schoonover. From that distance no one recognized the sniper except Matt (which again sounds like a headscratcher in itself, he likely guessed it was Frank or a strong wind carried his smell over to Matt.)
** After Frank took out the ninjas, he said, “See ya around Red.” Matt then gave an understanding nod so he likely recognized the voice.

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* The series seems to imply that the world thinks Frank died on the exploding boat in Daredevil ''Daredevil'' Season 2, despite appearing afterwards in public and sniping the Hand ninjas. One of the pages on this wiki says this is a retcon, but Frank is wearing the Punisher outfit he was using for that specific ninja scene, which he never wore again in ''Daredevil''. Did only Karen and Matt recognize the skull-chested sniper killing ninjas in that scene?
** Well for starter no, [[DisabilitySuperpower Matt did not see the skull]] and he never wore a skull during season 2 until the last episode so even if someone did see it it, they don't wouldn't know it's the Punisher logo. Karen only knows Frank isn't dead because he saved her from Schoonover. From that distance no one recognized the sniper except Matt (which again sounds like a headscratcher in itself, he likely guessed it was Frank or a strong wind carried his smell over to Matt.)
** After Frank took out the ninjas, he said, “See ya around Red.” Matt then gave an understanding nod so he likely recognized the did recognize Frank's voice.



*** Matt's superhuman hearing is good enough that when he was rescuing Frank from the Irish, even with heavy gunfire going on, he heard Frank whispering "penny and dime". Directing his hearing toward the sniper fire after everything is said and done seems to be within his ability.

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*** Matt's superhuman hearing is was good enough that when he was rescuing Frank from the Irish, even with heavy gunfire going on, he heard Frank whispering "penny and dime". Directing his hearing toward the sniper fire after everything is said and done seems to be within his ability.



*** I’m not sure what the headscratcher here is. Matt has superhuman senses that are not physically possible which means they are limited to the writer’s imagination. If he can sense Frank during a fight then that’s what he does. After all, he sensed a gunman from the next building over right before Reyes' office was shot up. In the climax, the fighting stopped for a few moments after Elektra died. When Matt stood up to continue the fight, that’s when Frank made his first move. Matt turned in the direction of the shot and either detected him via radar or picked up on through other means described above. Additionally, if someone were sniping bad guys on a roof, it would have to be Frank. If it were a police sniper, then Matt would have heard the radio chatter of him communicating with his supervisor.
** Karen thinks the shooter is Frank, but I think that's partial visual confirmation and partly contextual. No cop says on their radio, "It's Frank Castle. It's the Punisher!" and I doubt anything less than a one on one confrontation with the cops or photographic evidence would be able to confirm for them that someone they previously believed to be dead is alive.

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*** I’m not sure what the headscratcher here is. Matt has superhuman senses that are not physically possible which means they are limited to the writer’s imagination. If he can sense Frank during a fight fight, then that’s what he does. After all, he sensed a gunman from the next building over right before Reyes' office was shot up. In the climax, the fighting stopped for a few moments after Elektra died. When Matt stood up to continue the fight, that’s when Frank made his first move. Matt turned in the direction of the shot and either detected him via radar or picked up on through other means described above. Additionally, from Matt's perspective, if someone were sniping bad guys on a roof, it would have to be Frank. If Well, that or an ESU sniper. But if it were a police sniper, then an ESU sniper in the vein of the one who shot Detective Blake, well, Matt would have heard the radio chatter of him communicating with his supervisor.
** Karen thinks the shooter is Frank, but I think that's partial visual confirmation and partly contextual. No cop says on their radio, "It's Frank Castle. It's the Punisher!" and I doubt anything nothing less than a one on one confrontation with the cops or photographic evidence would be able to confirm for them that someone they previously believed to be dead is alive.



** The Hand have no reason to investigate him, because he's supposed to be dead and there's no one anywhere nearby that can identify him as the sniper.

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** The Hand have no reason to investigate him, Frank, because he's supposed to be dead and there's no one anywhere nearby that can identify him as the sniper.



****That Karen isn't diagnosed with severe PTSD is just artistic license: in the world of fiction, characters are supernaturally resilient so that they can continue being active participants in the plot. Just like Matt recovers from nasty knife wounds and concussions rather quickly, or Frank's ability to keep it up despite all his injuries here, and we all accept it. As for the gun control debate, well, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment that's a whole can of worms to be saved for another thread.]]



* Question about the radio debate: why have Karen be the opponent to Senator Ori here? As far as I know, usually a senator debates another politician of the opposing cause, so why would the radio station managers decide that Senator Ori's debate opponent should be a smalltime journalist?
** It wasn't supposed to be a debate about guns, it was a discussion about a recent terrorist act. Karen was likely invited because she deliberately provoked Lewis in her article, while Senator Ori wanted to be there to use the event as a soapbox for his anti-gun campaign (and Ian the station manager who oversaw accepted because bringing a politician on the air, especially one who's up for reelection, draws in crucial demographics). While you could make a case the announcers would likely try to rerail the conversation about the original subject the Netflix series take artistic license when it comes to media or public speech.

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* Question about the radio debate: why have Karen be the opponent to Senator Ori here? As far as I know, usually a senator debates another politician of the opposing cause, so why would the radio station managers decide that Senator Ori's debate opponent should be a smalltime journalist?
journalist? Why not bring in the Mayor or a city councilman?
** It wasn't supposed to be a debate about guns, it was a discussion about a recent terrorist act. Karen was likely invited because she deliberately provoked Lewis in her article, while Senator Ori wanted to be there to use the event as a soapbox for his anti-gun campaign (and Ian the station manager who oversaw accepted because bringing a politician on the air, especially one who's up for reelection, draws in crucial demographics). While you could make a case that the announcers would likely try to rerail the conversation about the original subject subject, the Netflix series take artistic license when it comes to media or public speech.
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*** Why does she gets to do whatever she needs to defend herself but other people don't? Bystanders in Marvel New York have an even worse time than her on a general basis, at least she has a bunch of superheroes or an ex military with a bunch of guns looking after her if a terrorist blow stuff up. Besides PTSD is really pushing, she recovers fast seen with her chatting with Foggy after he just saved her from thugs, smile at hobo Frank despite their last reunion having him execute a guy and even wrote an editorial about how strong people in New York are after the ninja thing. Not everyone break down in real life either and pretending gun control debate doesn't involve handgun is silly. The character who keeps supporting the Punisher is gonna be against guns unless you are a reporter that deliberately provoke criminals because she used guns before? Yes it's kind of crazy to think that Karen is suddenly a FragileFlower when she willfully risks her life for the truth no matter how many time people got hurt for it.

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** Karen seems very isolated in ''The Punisher''. This is further supported by the way she speaks about loneliness and how she pushes to remain in touch with Frank somehow. She seems to not even be in touch with Foggy at this point (though we're to assume Foggy probably called her to see if she was okay after the Lewis incident), so Matt's "death" certainly seems to have had far-reaching consequences. Karen probably compartmentalizes her grief, but around Frank, she seems to drop the act. She's also emotional/tearful in the "Where does it end, Frank?" conversation in a way that very much speaks of raw emotions lurking under the surface.

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** Karen seems very isolated in ''The Punisher''. This is further supported by the way she speaks about loneliness and how she pushes to remain in touch with Frank somehow. She seems to not even be in touch with Foggy at this point (though we're to assume Foggy probably called her to see if she was okay after the Lewis incident), so Matt's "death" certainly seems to have had far-reaching consequences.consequences that will have a big impact on her in ''Daredevil'' season 3. Karen probably compartmentalizes her grief, but around Frank, she seems to drop the act. She's also emotional/tearful in the "Where does it end, Frank?" conversation in a way that very much speaks of raw emotions lurking under the surface.



** Yes, it's a little odd that Frank didn't ask about Matt after everything they went through in season 2 of ''Daredevil'', ESPECIALLY with Karen being around. But look at things from his perspective: Frank never really had any time to just chat with Karen. He only ever reached out to her when he needed to hit her up for information or when he was protecting her from some imminent threat. Then there's that scene in the courtroom Frank's trial where it's heavily suggested that Frank picked up on who Matt really is, but it was never brought up. This means that Frank doesn't know that Karen knows Matt is Daredevil. If that's the case, it would seem pretty odd for Frank to ask about Matt considering that they made it a point in ''Daredevil'' Season 2 that he wasn't actually working on Frank's case as much as the others, instead being interested in helping Elektra fight ninjas. If anything, it would've made more sense for Frank to ask about Foggy.

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** Yes, it's a little odd that Frank didn't ask about Matt after everything they went through in season 2 of ''Daredevil'', ESPECIALLY with Karen being around. But look at things from his perspective: Frank never really had any time to just chat with Karen. He only ever reached out to her when he needed to hit her up for information or when he was protecting her from some imminent threat. Then there's that scene in the courtroom Frank's trial where it's heavily suggested that Frank picked up on who Matt really is, but it was never brought up. This means that Frank doesn't know that Karen knows Matt is Daredevil. If that's the case, it would seem pretty odd for Frank to ask about Matt considering that they made it a point in ''Daredevil'' Season 2 that he Matt wasn't actually working on Frank's case as much as the others, instead being interested in helping Elektra fight ninjas. If anything, it would've made more sense for Frank to ask about Foggy.



** Since all we saw of the Gnuccis consisted of one group being robbed by low level thugs before being killed, it seems they aren’t that powerful as of yet. Keep in mind, Fisk’s empire is limited to prison, the Hand has been destroyed, Cottonmouth is dead, and the three gangs involved in the murder of Frank’s family have been wiped out. There is always room for new organizations to rise up.

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** Since all we saw of the Gnuccis consisted of one group being robbed by low level thugs before being killed, it seems they aren’t that powerful as of yet. Keep in mind, Fisk’s empire is limited to prison, the Hand has been destroyed, Cottonmouth is dead, Harlem's gangs are in disarray, and the three gangs involved in the murder of Frank’s family have been wiped out. There is always room for new organizations to rise up.



** He is likely wearing an improved outer tactical vest given he got it from Schoonover's military grade stash. Those are made to take direct impact of a bullet from rifles and have ceramic plates that can stop armor piercing bullets. To give you an idea it's like the body armor the Ukrainian was wearing in ''Series/LukeCage2016'' to test the Judas bullets in the footage that Shades shows to Cottonmouth. Notice how aside from the initial shock, the guy was laughing until it exploded. Also Matt's armor was never made for guns, Melvin built it to resist blades and pipes.
** He could also be wearing a double-layer. It's established in the comics that his torso is especially well-armored, and the skull is meant to attract his opponents gunfire there to let him shrug off injuries. Coupled with Frank being MadeOfIron incarnate, it could be worse.

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** He is likely wearing an improved outer tactical vest given he got it from Schoonover's military grade stash. Those are made to take direct impact of a bullet from rifles and have ceramic plates that can stop armor piercing bullets. To give you an idea For a base comparison, it's like the body armor the Ukrainian was wearing in ''Series/LukeCage2016'' to test the Judas bullets in the footage that Shades shows to Cottonmouth. Notice how aside from the initial shock, the guy was laughing until it exploded. Also Matt's armor was never made for guns, Melvin built it to resist blades and pipes.
** He Frank could also be wearing a double-layer. It's established in the comics that his torso is especially well-armored, and the skull is meant to attract his opponents gunfire there to let him shrug off injuries. Coupled with Frank being MadeOfIron incarnate, it could be worse.



** Except Frank was found there by Micro and had he not erased the surveillance camera they would have found Frank a while ago and Frank at least killed the last guy with his own gun Russo didn't do anything to look like both both killed each other. So if you compare the Gnucci shoot-out with the dominatrix killing they need also someone mentionning the video feed from nearby recorded no one entering or leaving the house.

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** Except Frank was found there by Micro and had he not erased the surveillance camera they would have found Frank a while ago and Frank at least killed the last guy with his own gun gun. Russo didn't do anything to look like both both killed each other. So if you compare the Gnucci shoot-out with the dominatrix killing they need also someone mentionning the video feed from nearby recorded no one entering or leaving the house.



*** BDSM can happen fully clothed; that was what Bennett was getting right before Frank came knocking. As for the rest, we don't see what Billy did after the killing was finished, but it's fair to assume that he doctored the scene as needed before leaving, especially since he was willing to go so far as to kill a woman and leave her body on the scene. Leave a bloody knife, move the bodies a bit, toss some stuff on the floor, and between that and the known relationship between the two, the conclusions are obvious. Since we never see anything about a followup investigation mentioned later on aside from David mentioning it being reported in the newspapers, it's fair to assume that whatever the State Police found was sufficient for them to consider it an open and shut case and move on.

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*** BDSM can happen fully clothed; that was what Bennett was getting right before Frank came knocking. As for the rest, we don't see what Billy did after the killing was finished, but it's fair to assume that he doctored the scene as needed before leaving, especially since he was willing to go so far as to kill a woman the prostitute and leave her body on the scene. Leave a bloody knife, move the bodies a bit, toss some stuff on the floor, and between that and the known relationship between the two, the conclusions are obvious. Since we never see anything about a followup investigation mentioned later on aside from David mentioning it being reported in the newspapers, it's fair to assume that whatever the State Police found was sufficient for them to consider it an open and shut case and move on.



*** They weren't expecting a black-ops trained death squad willing to shoot it out with the police. Most criminals, when confronted with a fully-equipped tactical unit of federal law enforcement, tend to surrender. That and it's rare to expect an elite squad of mercenaries who are willing to fight to the death to run around on US soil; they were expecting a group of armed organized crime hitmen who might shoot back, not ex-military black-ops types. Madani said as much after the shootout. Also keep in mind that most of those guys in that group ''might'' have been willing to drop their weapons and surrender, as they hesitated and seemed about to give up, but Billy decided that for them by shooting immediately.

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*** They weren't expecting a black-ops trained death squad willing to shoot it out with the police. Most criminals, when confronted with a fully-equipped tactical unit of federal law enforcement, tend to surrender. That and it's rare to expect an elite squad of mercenaries who are willing to fight to the death to run around on US soil; they were expecting a group of armed organized crime hitmen who might shoot back, not ex-military black-ops types. Madani said as much after the shootout. Also keep in mind that most of those guys in that group ''might'' have been willing to drop their weapons and surrender, as they hesitated and seemed about to give up, but Billy Russo decided that the outcome for them everyone by shooting opening fire immediately.



*** Ellison's response to the threat from the terrorist who writes specifically to Karen should have been, “Let’s let the police handle it. Do whatever they say, and wait for them to tell us what to do.”

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*** ***Realistically, Ellison's response to the threat from the terrorist who writes specifically to Karen should have been, “Let’s let the police handle it. Do whatever they say, and wait for them to tell us what to do.”



** A whole forest is hard to clean up. Getting the [=PMCs=]' bodies is as easy as breathing, since they had helmet-mounted cameras and likely trackers on them to find. Since Micro called the cops, they probably only had time to grab the bodies and run otherwise they would have followed Micro's track if they had enough tie to find Gunner's body.

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** A whole forest is hard to clean up. Getting the [=PMCs=]' bodies is as easy as breathing, since they had helmet-mounted cameras and likely trackers on them to find. Since Micro called the cops, they probably only had time to grab the bodies and run otherwise they would have followed Micro's track if they had enough tie to find Gunner's body. All they could take was their own men and their weapons. Everything else, like spent shell casings, had to be left behind.



** In his first scene, Russo tries to push Madani and Wolf hard for a State-side government contract, so it makes sense he'd want to be front and center, especially when he's so charismatic. The same can be said for the Senator who he could similarly butter up personally. As for the mercenaries, Russo knew them personally and they needed convincing to take on the op in the first place, so it required the personal touch. Russo is also egotistical enough to think he can do this kind of thing anyway, along with having friends high up in the CIA to cover it up if needs be.

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** In his first scene, Russo tries to push Madani and Wolf hard for a State-side government contract, so it makes sense he'd want to be front and center, especially when he's so charismatic. The same can be said for the Senator who he Ori; he's the kind of guy that Russo could similarly butter up personally. As for the mercenaries, Russo knew them personally and they needed convincing to take on the op in the first place, so it required the personal touch. Russo is also egotistical enough to think he can do this kind of thing anyway, along with having friends high up in the CIA to cover it up if needs be.



** While prolonged exposure therapy is a valid treatment for PTSD, even that therapy relies on safe exposition to the triggers and is about reducing the distress caused by the trauma reminders. Joining Anvil would only work for Lewis in combination with some really extensive in-house therapy, in which someone like Curtis would be with him every step of the way. And that option isn't viable because we're talking about him being in potential life-or-death situations and his emotional state is too unpredictable/volatile for that by far. He would perhaps put other people's lives at risk with his responses, and that is something I think nobody at Anvil would willingly sign up for.

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** While prolonged exposure therapy is a valid treatment for PTSD, even that therapy relies on safe exposition to the triggers and is about reducing the distress caused by the trauma reminders. Joining Anvil would only work for Lewis in combination with some really extensive in-house therapy, in which someone like Curtis would be with him every step of the way. And that option isn't viable because we're talking about him Lewis being in potential life-or-death situations and his emotional state is too unpredictable/volatile for that by far. He would perhaps put other people's lives at risk with his responses, and that is something I think nobody at Anvil would willingly sign up for.just the ''best case'' scenario in Curtis's opinion.



** They weren't fake police uniforms, her husband was shot and "killed" by Carson Wolf, the head of the DHS field office for New York City. Sarah was suspicious because the fake cop was acting a little off, asking questions about who's home and so forth. And with everything going on, she'd be stupid not to be a little suspicious.

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** They weren't fake police uniforms, her husband was shot and "killed" by Carson Wolf, the head of Special Agent in Charge for the DHS field office for New York City. Sarah was suspicious because the fake cop was acting a little off, asking questions about who's home and so forth.forth (so he can determine if all the Liebermans are in one place). And with everything going on, she'd be stupid not to be a little suspicious.



*** It should also be noted that she saw Wolf shoot David after shouting "he has a weapon". It was obvious David didn't have a weapon and wasn't threatening anyone, not to mention that the reason why David was shot in the first place was because he uncovered a conspiracy, so Sarah has good reason to be skeptical of law enforcement at this point.

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*** It should also be noted that she saw Wolf shoot David after shouting "he has a weapon". It was obvious She knew David didn't have a weapon and wasn't threatening anyone, not to mention that the reason why David was shot in the first place was because he uncovered a conspiracy, so Sarah has good reason to be skeptical of law enforcement at this point.



*** It's also important to note that, in this case, Lewis and O'Connor were purposely using a "letter of the law over the spirit of the law". Namely, handing out pamphlets is not TECHNICALLY a protest...but, for all intents and purposes, they are making a political ''statement'', on the steps of a courthouse. That's the sort of place where, in order to make a political statement and handle such things, you are ''required'' to have a permit, and how Lewis and O'Connor were doing it was in an obtrusive and obvious manner. The cop was a prick and probably was having a bad day or needed to be sent back to the academy, and getting arrested was one of the crucial factors towards Lewis's downward spiral. But, generally? What Lewis was doing was one step below "sovereign citizen" stuff. Cops have broad discretion to at least ''detain'' someone, and in some instances "being an asshole" can be reasonable enough suspicion. This is one of those situations where ''both'' parties were in the wrong. The cop was, quite frankly, a RabidCop...but, arguing "You can't arrest me" to a cop...in many instances can, in fact, be grounds for arrest. Quite frankly? He should have sucked it up and grabbed the permit. And "disturbing the peace" is also explicitly something that cops have broad discretionary power. And Lewis and O'Connor were being loud and obvious...which is exactly why permits are required for such things. Yes, it was just two people, but those two people were intentionally making sure everyone could hear them. [[http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html Your "freedom of speech" and "freedom of assembly" do not come without restrictions.]]

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*** It's also important to note that, in this case, Lewis and O'Connor were purposely using a "letter of the law over the spirit of the law". Namely, handing Really, the problem wasn't what they were doing, but ''where'' they were doing it. Handing out pamphlets is not TECHNICALLY ''technically'' a protest...but, for all intents and purposes, they are making a political ''statement'', on the steps of a courthouse. That's the sort of place where, in order to make a political statement and handle such things, you are ''required'' to have a permit, and how Lewis and O'Connor were doing it was in an obtrusive and obvious manner. The cop was a prick and probably was having a bad day or needed to be sent back to the academy, and getting arrested was one of the crucial factors towards Lewis's downward spiral. But, generally? What Lewis was doing was one step below the "sovereign citizen" stuff.stuff you see activists try to pull all the time at traffic stops. Cops have broad discretion to at least ''detain'' someone, and in some instances "being an asshole" can be reasonable enough suspicion. This is one of those situations where ''both'' parties were in the wrong. The cop was, quite frankly, a RabidCop...but, arguing "You can't arrest me" to a cop...in many instances can, in fact, be grounds for arrest. Quite frankly? He Lewis should have sucked it up and grabbed the permit. And "disturbing the peace" is also explicitly something that cops have broad discretionary power. And Lewis and O'Connor were being loud and obvious...which again, is exactly why permits are required for such things. Yes, it was just two people, but those two people were intentionally making sure everyone could hear them. [[http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html Your You may have "freedom of speech" and "freedom of assembly" in the United States, but those two things do not come without restrictions.]]



*** Well Frank sort of saved her boyfriend in ''Daredevil'' season 2 finale. That might have redeemed Frank in Karen's eyes that he was there to provide backup for Matt once Elektra was taken out. Karen has used people to fulfill her goals (including Frank, in the course of trying to redeem herself for killing Wesley) and been used as a pawn in other peoples' agendas (like Fisk's and Frank's) to fulfill their goals, and those usually ended up getting people killed. She is probably in her perpetual state of anger and sorrow that she's been since losing Matt.

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*** Well Frank sort of saved her boyfriend in ''Daredevil'' season 2 finale. That might have redeemed Frank in Karen's eyes in that he was there to provide backup for Matt once Elektra was taken out. out, assuming Matt told her the exact details of what happened on the roof. Karen has used people to fulfill her goals (including Frank, in the course of trying to redeem herself for killing Wesley) and been other people (like Fisk and Frank) have used Karen as a pawn in other peoples' agendas (like Fisk's and Frank's) to fulfill fulfilling their goals, and those usually ended up getting people killed. She is probably in her a perpetual state of anger and sorrow that she's been since losing Matt.



*** Yes, it makes sense why Karen would want to have a handgun: because this woman is involved in life or death situations every other week. It makes sense that Karen should do whatever she needs to do to protect herself. But considering the extreme trauma of killing Wesley, plus all the other violence she was subjected to in ''Daredevil'' season 2, it makes no sense for Karen to support gun rights in general. Especially not when the gun control debate is primarily about assault weapons, not handguns.
*** Extreme trauma is harsh, she had a few bad dreams and went back to looking for trouble and working with her friends like nothing happened. Besides lot of the violence she has been subjected to didn't involve guns but bigger guys strangling her or ninjas, guns ain't the trauma for her it's having to kill someone and she is not that much of a hypocrite to say that ''she'' gets to have a conceal and carry because she is an intrepid reporter but everyone else has no good reason to have guns when an AlienInvasion happened like four years ago and crazy zombies with katanas attacked a hospital.

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*** Yes, it makes sense why Karen would want to have a handgun: because this woman is involved in life or death situations every other week. It makes sense that Therefore, Karen should do whatever she needs to do to protect herself. But considering the extreme trauma of Karen went through just from killing Wesley, plus the fact that realistically, she should have been severely traumatized and suffering extreme PTSD from all the other violence she that was subjected to inflicted on her in ''Daredevil'' season 2, 2[[note]]Which for the record included getting shot at three times, in the hospital, in Reyes' office, and her own apartment (of course, in TV world, gunfire harms no one unless they’re actually hit by the bullets); witnessing Frank brutally kill those two men in the diner, him crashing a car into her and then executing Schoonover despite her begging him not to, and then getting kidnapped by the Hand, them killing a hostage, and threatening her at gunpoint[[/note]] it makes no sense for Karen to support gun rights in general. Especially not when you consider the fact the gun control debate is primarily about assault weapons, not handguns.
*** Extreme trauma is harsh, she had a few bad dreams and went back to looking for trouble and working with her friends like nothing happened. Besides lot of the violence she has been subjected to didn't involve guns but bigger guys strangling her or ninjas, guns ain't the trauma for her it's having to kill someone and she is not that much of a hypocrite to say that ''she'' gets to have a conceal and carry because she is an intrepid reporter but everyone else has no good reason to have guns when an AlienInvasion happened like four years ago and crazy zombies with katanas attacked a hospital.
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*** Extreme trauma is harsh, she had a few bad dreams and went back to looking for trouble and working with her friends like nothing happened. Besides lot of the violence she has been subjected to didn't involve guns but bigger guys strangling her or ninjas, guns ain't the trauma for her it's having to kill someone and she is not that much of a hypocrite to say that ''she'' gets to have a conceal and carry because she is an intrepid reporter but everyone else has no good reason to have guns when an AlienInvasion happened like four years ago and crazy zombies with katanas attacked a hospital.
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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Schoonover's history with Frank]]
*During the trial, Colonel Schoonover mentioned he’d known Frank for nearly a decade, most of his military career. Then later, we find out he taught Frank to shoot at 18, so he must have known him his whole military career. Was Schoonover lying about how long he’d known him? Or is a possible explanation that he was an instructor who trained Frank, then Frank was deployed under someone else for a few years, before Schoonover formed his own unit and he’s referring to how long he “really” knew Frank - ie worked with him?
**The "eight years" thing refers to how long Frank had been serving alongside Russo.
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** Billy starts trying to radio Frank with the old unit calls before Dinah tells him Frank is alive. Rawlins didn't know Frank was alive until seeing him on the Anvil mercenaries' helmet cam. They sent the mercenaries to take out Gunnar, with the expectation that he would be alone but prepared for a fight, and they died because they were not prepared to deal with Frank helping Gunnar tag-team the mercs, with David's air support with the drone. Most likely Rawlins told him and he started trying to radio Frank immediately. Dinah later let him know the same day, so he learned the same thing almost at the same time from two sources. Then he went to Curtis because he figured that as Frank was alive, he must have somehow been keeping in touch with Curtis.

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** Billy starts trying to radio Frank with the old unit calls before Dinah tells him Frank is alive. Rawlins didn't know Frank was alive until seeing him on the Anvil mercenaries' helmet cam. They sent the The mercenaries were sent to take out Gunnar, with the expectation forest to kill Gunner. They went in there expecting that he would Gunner was going to be alone but prepared for to fight back (and they'd risk a fight, and casualty or two before they died took him down). They got wiped out because they were not prepared to deal with Frank helping Gunnar coincidentally happened to decide to hunt down Gunner and luckily was there in time to help Gunner tag-team the mercs, with David's air support with the drone. Most likely Rawlins told him and he started trying to radio Russo that Frank immediately. Dinah was alive after the attack in the forest. That in fact is what Russo is talking about when he tells Madani he had a shitty day: he's having a shitty day because he's learned Frank is alive and Frank just killed nine of his men. So between trysts with Madani, Russo tried making unit calls to Frank. Madani later let him know once she identified Frank's blood from the same day, forest, so he Russo learned the same thing almost at the same time from two sources. Then he Russo went to Curtis because he figured that as Frank was alive, he must wouldn't stray far from his roots and due to the Marine code of honor, that Frank would have somehow been keeping remained in touch with Curtis.

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*** Well he sort of saved her boyfriend in ''Daredevil'' season 2 finale, that mends relationship and Karen has been use and used people to fulfill their goals that ended up getting people killed, she is probably in her angry but that's life state she has been since Defenders.

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*** Well he Frank sort of saved her boyfriend in ''Daredevil'' season 2 finale, finale. That might have redeemed Frank in Karen's eyes that mends relationship and he was there to provide backup for Matt once Elektra was taken out. Karen has been use and used people to fulfill her goals (including Frank, in the course of trying to redeem herself for killing Wesley) and been used as a pawn in other peoples' agendas (like Fisk's and Frank's) to fulfill their goals that goals, and those usually ended up getting people killed, she killed. She is probably in her angry but that's life perpetual state she has of anger and sorrow that she's been since Defenders.losing Matt.



** It’s hard to be sure exactly how long after ''The Defenders'' that this show is taking place. It’s a minimum of six months after the end of ''Daredevil'' season 2, depending on how long it took Frank to find and finish off those last few stragglers from the gangs. But then again, they never said exactly how long after season 2 the events of ''The Defenders'' took place. Less than six months, definitely, based on the outdoor scenes. ''Daredevil'' ended at Christmas, and neither ''The Defenders'' nor ''The Punisher'' look like they're set in the summer. There's snow on the ground during ''The Defenders'' when Matt and Jessica are walking to John Raymond's brownstone. There's also snow on the ground when Frank tries to assassinate Rawlins at the mansion, and Lewis’s dad and Curtis mention how cold it is outside. It doesn’t seem like it should still be winter, but it also doesn’t seem like it should be the ''next'' winter already, either.

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** It’s hard to be sure exactly how long after ''The Defenders'' that this show is taking place. It’s a minimum of six months after the end of ''Daredevil'' season 2, depending on how long it took Frank to find and finish off those last few stragglers from the gangs. But then again, they never said exactly how long after ''Daredevil'' season 2 the events of ''The Defenders'' took place. Less than six months, definitely, based on the outdoor scenes. ''Daredevil'' ended at Christmas, and neither ''The Defenders'' nor ''The Punisher'' look like they're set in the summer. There's snow on the ground during ''The Defenders'' when Matt and Jessica are walking to John Raymond's brownstone. There's also snow on the ground when Frank tries to assassinate Rawlins at the mansion, and Lewis’s dad and Curtis mention how cold it is outside. It doesn’t seem like it should still be winter, but it also doesn’t seem like it should be the ''next'' winter already, either.



**11 months appears to be the time gap from ''Daredevil'' season 2 to ''The Punisher'' season 1, given Madani's remark in the first episode about Schoonover's death and the boat explosion happening "last year", the November setting of ''The Punisher'', and ''Daredevil'' season 2 ending at Christmas. It probably took until about April for Frank to finish off the gangs who were at the park, which means he spent about four months of time on the road hunting down targets before he did the kill in JFK and then retired to work on the construction site.



** Russo cared but he has his way of caring is more MercyKill than joining with him. It's already lucky Frank got away with all the murder because the CIA wants to smother the whole thing Billy probably didn't see fighting Rawlins and the whole corrupt system viable and preferred playing ball, feeling they would just get killed anyway and Frank not being able to take it is regretful. For most of the last episodes Billy feels betrayed that Frank couldn't just die or let it go since Billy lacks too much empathy to see why Frank can't just stop his crusade.

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** Russo cared but he has his way of caring is caring. He's more MercyKill than joining with him. It's already lucky Frank got away with all the murder because the CIA wants to smother the whole thing Billy thing. Russo probably didn't see fighting Rawlins and the whole corrupt system viable and preferred playing ball, feeling they would just get killed anyway and Frank not being able to take it is regretful. For most of the last episodes Billy feels betrayed that Frank couldn't just die or let it go since Billy lacks too much empathy to see why Frank can't just stop his crusade.

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***Yes, it makes sense why Karen would want to have a handgun: because this woman is involved in life or death situations every other week. It makes sense that Karen should do whatever she needs to do to protect herself. But considering the extreme trauma of killing Wesley, plus all the other violence she was subjected to in ''Daredevil'' season 2, it makes no sense for Karen to support gun rights in general. Especially not when the gun control debate is primarily about assault weapons, not handguns.



** It wasn't supposed to be a debate about guns, it was a discussion about a recent terrorist act. Karen was likely invited because she deliberately provoked Lewis in her article and Ori wanted to be there to use the event as a soapbox for his anti-gun campaign (the station accepted because having a senator on air must attract people). While you could make a case the announcers would likely try to rerail the conversation about the original subject the Netflix series take artistic license when it comes to media or public speech.

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** It wasn't supposed to be a debate about guns, it was a discussion about a recent terrorist act. Karen was likely invited because she deliberately provoked Lewis in her article and article, while Senator Ori wanted to be there to use the event as a soapbox for his anti-gun campaign (the (and Ian the station manager who oversaw accepted because having bringing a senator politician on air must attract people).the air, especially one who's up for reelection, draws in crucial demographics). While you could make a case the announcers would likely try to rerail the conversation about the original subject the Netflix series take artistic license when it comes to media or public speech.
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*** Well he sort of saved her boyfriend in ''Daredevil'' season 2 finale, that mends relationship and Karen has been use and used people to fulfill their goals that ended up getting people killed, she is probably in her angry but that's life state she has been since Defenders.
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** It wasn't supposed to be a debate about guns, it was a discussion about a recent terrorist act. Karen was likely invited because she deliberately provoked Lewis in her article and Ori wanted to be there to use the event as a soapbox for his anti-gun campaign (the station accepted because having a senator on air must attract people). While you could make a case the announcers would likely try to rerail the conversation about the original subject the Netflix series take artistic license when it comes to media or public speech.

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** Karen knows that whatever she says to Frank won't matter in the end, because he's going to do whatever he has to do. Matt's pretty much the same way, but it's a different story with Matt because Karen is in love with him, which means there's that emotional attachment. So Karen's been with Matt almost every step of the way, unlike Frank, with whom she's only had brief interactions in comparison.

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** Karen knows that whatever she says to Frank won't matter in the end, because he's going to do whatever he has to do. Matt's pretty much the same way, but it's a different story with Matt because Karen is in love with him, which means there's that emotional attachment. So Karen's been with Matt almost every step of the way, unlike Frank, with whom she's only had brief interactions in comparison. Mostly, Karen is just going along with Frank due to guilty feelings for not being supportive of Matt in the first place.


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**Yes, it's a little odd that Frank didn't ask about Matt after everything they went through in season 2 of ''Daredevil'', ESPECIALLY with Karen being around. But look at things from his perspective: Frank never really had any time to just chat with Karen. He only ever reached out to her when he needed to hit her up for information or when he was protecting her from some imminent threat. Then there's that scene in the courtroom Frank's trial where it's heavily suggested that Frank picked up on who Matt really is, but it was never brought up. This means that Frank doesn't know that Karen knows Matt is Daredevil. If that's the case, it would seem pretty odd for Frank to ask about Matt considering that they made it a point in ''Daredevil'' Season 2 that he wasn't actually working on Frank's case as much as the others, instead being interested in helping Elektra fight ninjas. If anything, it would've made more sense for Frank to ask about Foggy.


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[[/folder]]

[[folder:The radio show debate]]
* Question about the radio debate: why have Karen be the opponent to Senator Ori here? As far as I know, usually a senator debates another politician of the opposing cause, so why would the radio station managers decide that Senator Ori's debate opponent should be a smalltime journalist?
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***In addition, from a showrunner's perspective, a show's writing needs to stand up on its own merit rather than its association with other big names. This isn't a ''Defenders'' story or ''Daredevil'' story, it's a ''Punisher'' story.
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** Her PTSD comes more Wesley kidnapping her and knowing she likely marked her and her friends to death if Fisk finds out. She even said to Wesley she has been using guns before to know when one is loaded.
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***Except she should be kinda/sorta mad at him for how he basically turned her into an accessory to murder. Hell, the show kinda glossed over the fact that Karen didn't part from Frank on good terms in ''Daredevil'' season 2 either.
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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Gun control messengers]]
* Call me crazy, but isn't it a bit out of character for Karen to be in favor of guns? I mean, she suffered extreme PTSD just from using one to kill Wesley.
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***Ellison's response to the threat from the terrorist who writes specifically to Karen should have been, “Let’s let the police handle it. Do whatever they say, and wait for them to tell us what to do.”

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** Frank was also aiming to not kill the soldier, while he was actively working to kill the mercenaries coming after him. While it's unrealistic that Frank would be aiming to wound, this is ''The Punisher'', after all. Frank is skilled enough that he could shoot a man nonlethally if he chose to.
** The soldier's orders was arrest people who trespass and torture a general, if Frank is allowed to kill him for doing that why wouldn't he just let Madani to burn in her car? It's not even self defense he is the aggressor and the soldier refused to shoot him in the back.

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** Frank was also aiming to not kill the soldier, while he was actively working to kill the mercenaries coming after him. While it's unrealistic that Frank would be aiming to wound, this is ''The Punisher'', after all. Frank is skilled enough that he could shoot a man nonlethally if he chose to. \n** The soldier's orders was arrest people who trespass and torture a general, if Frank is allowed to kill him for doing that why wouldn't he just let Madani to burn in her car? It's not even self defense he is the aggressor and the soldier refused to shoot him in the back.
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[[/folder]]

[[folder:How long has it been since Frank's family died?]]
* How long has it been since the Central Park shootout?
**''The Punisher'' takes place after ''The Defenders'', and from dialogue is implied to take places about 11 months after the events of ''Daredevil'' season 2. As Senator Ori said on the radio, “It’s barely a year since this city was terrorized by the Punisher!” According to the articles that Karen found in the ''Bulletin'' archives in ''Daredevil'' season 2, the Castle family was killed in April of 2015. So it's been about a little over a year and a half.

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*** Cops are indeed allowed to "harass" people if they feel they're disturbing the peace. Your example of forcing a blowjob doesn't compare here, because that's committing an outright unjustified crime, but ejecting a person who is causing trouble is acceptable. Now, what the cop did there was outside of the line, as Lewis wasn't disturbing the peace and the cop was making up serious charges on the spot, but legally, yeah, a cop could cite disturbing the peace as a reason to eject an individual from a public place.
*** It's also important to note that, in this case, Lewis and O'Conner were purposely using a 'letter of the law over the spirit'. Namely? Handing out pamphlets is not TECHNICALLY a protest...but, for all intents and purposes, they are making a political statement, in a place where, to make a political statement and handle such things, you require a permit, and they were doing so in an obtrusive and obvious manner. The cop was a jerk, and quite frankly should be fired...and, was one of the crucial things for causing all the deaths Lewis did. But, generally? What Lewis was doign was one step from "Sovereign Citizen" stuff. Cops have broad discretion to at least DETAIN someone, and in some instances "being an asshole" can be a crime. This is one of those situations where BOTH people were in the wrong. The cop was, quite frankly, a RabidCop...but, arguing "You can't arrest me" to a cop...in many instances can, in fact, be grounds for arrest. Quite frankly? He should have sucked it up and grabbed the permit. Disturbing the peace...also is explicitly something that cops have broad discretionary power. And, Lewis and O'Conner were being LOUD and OBVIOUS...which is exactly why permits are required for such things. Yes, it was just two people...but those two people were intentionally making sure everyone could hear them. "Free Speech" is not without restrictions.
*** http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html

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*** Cops are indeed allowed to "harass" (read, detain) people if they feel they're disturbing the peace. Your example of forcing a blowjob doesn't compare here, because that's committing an outright unjustified crime, but ejecting a person who is causing trouble is acceptable. Now, what the cop did there was outside of the line, as Lewis wasn't disturbing the peace and the cop was making up serious charges on the spot, but legally, yeah, a cop could cite disturbing the peace as a reason to eject an individual from a public place.
*** It's also important to note that, in this case, Lewis and O'Conner O'Connor were purposely using a 'letter "letter of the law over the spirit'. Namely? Handing spirit of the law". Namely, handing out pamphlets is not TECHNICALLY a protest...but, for all intents and purposes, they are making a political statement, in ''statement'', on the steps of a courthouse. That's the sort of place where, in order to make a political statement and handle such things, you require are ''required'' to have a permit, and they how Lewis and O'Connor were doing so it was in an obtrusive and obvious manner. The cop was a jerk, prick and quite frankly should probably was having a bad day or needed to be fired...and, sent back to the academy, and getting arrested was one of the crucial things for causing all the deaths Lewis did. factors towards Lewis's downward spiral. But, generally? What Lewis was doign doing was one step from "Sovereign Citizen" below "sovereign citizen" stuff. Cops have broad discretion to at least DETAIN ''detain'' someone, and in some instances "being an asshole" can be a crime. reasonable enough suspicion. This is one of those situations where BOTH people ''both'' parties were in the wrong. The cop was, quite frankly, a RabidCop...but, arguing "You can't arrest me" to a cop...in many instances can, in fact, be grounds for arrest. Quite frankly? He should have sucked it up and grabbed the permit. Disturbing And "disturbing the peace...peace" is also is explicitly something that cops have broad discretionary power. And, And Lewis and O'Conner O'Connor were being LOUD loud and OBVIOUS...obvious...which is exactly why permits are required for such things. Yes, it was just two people...people, but those two people were intentionally making sure everyone could hear them. "Free Speech" is not without restrictions.
*** http://criminal.
[[http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html html Your "freedom of speech" and "freedom of assembly" do not come without restrictions.]]
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*** It's also important to note that, in this case, Lewis and O'Conner were purposely using a 'letter of the law over the spirit'. Namely? Handing out pamphlets is not TECHNICALLY a protest...but, for all intents and purposes, they are making a political statement, in a place where, to make a political statement and handle such things, you require a permit, and they were doing so in an obtrusive and obvious manner. The cop was a jerk, and quite frankly should be fired...and, was one of the crucial things for causing all the deaths Lewis did. But, generally? What Lewis was doign was one step from "Sovereign Citizen" stuff. Cops have broad discretion to at least DETAIN someone, and in some instances "being an asshole" can be a crime. This is one of those situations where BOTH people were in the wrong. The cop was, quite frankly, a RabidCop...but, arguing "You can't arrest me" to a cop...in many instances can, in fact, be grounds for arrest. Quite frankly? He should have sucked it up and grabbed the permit. Disturbing the peace...also is explicitly something that cops have broad discretionary power. And, Lewis and O'Conner were being LOUD and OBVIOUS...which is exactly why permits are required for such things. Yes, it was just two people...but those two people were intentionally making sure everyone could hear them. "Free Speech" is not without restrictions.
**** http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html

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