History Headscratchers / ThePrestige

18th Feb '16 3:39:46 AM Kythereia
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** Maybe he tried and just didn't reach the prison in time. Cutter's old.

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** Maybe he tried and just didn't reach the prison in time. Cutter's old.old.

* Something that just struck me upon reading the Characters page: Fallon, Borden's associate, is [[spoiler: Borden's twin played by Christian Bale in a pair of spectacles ''and a fatsuit''. Christian Bale can pull this off today using makeup, prosthetics, and some clever camera work/CGI, but would ''Fallon'' be able to do the same thing--and then substitute perfectly for Borden if he's noticeably overweight?]] It gives new meaning to Borden's snarky line: "He vanishes, and then he reappears instantly on the other side of the stage - mute, overweight, and unless I'm mistaken, very drunk. It's astonishing, how does he do it?"
8th Dec '15 12:57:28 PM somellama
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**** [[spoiler: Consider this, the first time, the "clone says "no no don't !" and then gets shot. I took this to mean that the "clone" is not a clone but the transported Angier, the clone sees that he is a clone and kills Angier taking over his spot, then every performance he is the one transported and kills the new clone]]

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**** [[spoiler: Consider this, the first time, the "clone "clone" says "no no don't !" and then gets shot. I took this to mean that the "clone" is not a clone but the transported Angier, the clone sees that he is a clone and kills Angier taking over his spot, then every performance he is the one transported and kills the new clone]]
8th Dec '15 12:56:49 PM somellama
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****[[spoiler: Consider this, the first time, the "clone says "no no don't !" and then gets shot. I took this to mean that the "clone" is not a clone but the transported Angier, the clone sees that he is a clone and kills Angier taking over his spot, then every performance he is the one transported and kills the new clone]]
19th Nov '15 8:09:23 PM shibata33
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** [[spoiler: What if it '''was''' the method? What if that's where the Borden twin came from?]]
*** [[spoiler:It wasn't, because Borden speaks about his "perfect trick", meaning the Transported Man, long before he had heard of Tesla, back to even the first magic show in the movie. And had Tesla already been able to duplicate then, he wouldn't have had to build another for Angier, nor be surprised that he had built a cloning machine.]]

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** [[spoiler: What if it '''was''' the method? What if that's where the Borden twin came from?]]
*** [[spoiler:It wasn't, because Borden speaks about his "perfect trick", meaning the Transported Man, long before he had heard of Tesla, back to even the first magic show in the movie. And had Tesla already been able to duplicate then, he wouldn't have had to build another for Angier, nor be surprised that he had built a cloning machine.]]



** Well in anyone else's hands it probably could have been used for something else, Angier was so obsessed with the magic and [[spoiler:framing Borden]] he never bothered to consider other uses.
** Well he does seem remarkably wealthy at the end despite blowing all his money on research for the Matter Duplicator
*** [[spoiler:He was always Lord Caldrow because it is mentioned early in the movie by his wife that he changed his name to avoid embarrassing his family]]
*** The Duplicator also probably works on money.
** This troper does wonder why he continually duplicates [[spoiler: and drowns]] himself, rather than duplicating himself once or twice, and using that for the act
*** The reason he stops using the body double is because he became too hard to manage; Imagine how hard it would have been to manage a ''copy of himself.''
*** Much, ''much'' easier than managing a different person? You already know your duplicate wants to work with you as much as you do with him! Simply resolve "I will work with my duplicate" and then press the button. When you meet him, you're guaranteed to have no problems, because guess what, that guy already resolved to work with his duplicate too! That said, Angier panicked and killed his first duplicate, which would make it nigh-impossible to truly resolve at a gut level that he could trust a counterpart.
*** It's definitely easier than [[spoiler:managing a [[AlwaysIdenticalTwins "clone"]] from birth, or however long Borden and Freddy had been at it.]] I guess it just goes to show that he really is the worse magician.
*** Angier hates himself. Killing himself over and over and over again is part of a masochistic self-punishment for his wife's death near the beginning of the movie.
*** It's established earlier in the movie that Angier is less willing than or able to maintain {{Kayfabe}} than Borden. Look at the lengths [[spoiler:Borden and brother]] had to go to in order to keep the charade going; there's no way Angier would have had the dedication to do that, never mind [[spoiler: two of him]]. Angier's actions, to him, represent a more efficient solution.
*** Angier ran the trick at the end using the Machine each time because the entire point was to frame Borden. He had no way of knowing when Borden would end up under the stage, so he set it up that no matter when he did it, he would get caught. All the newly created Angier clone would have to do is listen for screams under the stage, and if he hears them, he doesn't make his grand appearance. That way, the frame up is more of a sure thing.
**** There are several overlapping reasons for using the machine the way Angier does. For one, if I understand the movie correctly, the machine is both teleports and clones its subject, each of which has the potential to fulfill one of Angier's goals: the teleportation means that he can preform the greatest magic trick ever seen on stage and beat Borden as an illusionist, and because the machine creates a clone each time, at some point Borden will be found with the dead body (because precisely 100 performances have been booked, Borden has to investigate within a short time frame), thus fulfilling Angier's desire for revenge on Borden for his wife's death. On another level, the reasons are prisoners' dilemma type logic: both the clone and the original think they are the original, know that the other thinks it's the original, and know that because the other has considered killing the other to cover up loose ends, it's in their best interests to figure out how to kill the other first. In order to prevent a scenario like this, Angier decides to have one of the copies die each time. Finally, the reasons are psychological: as the scenes with Root show, Angier feels that he has never received the acclaim from an audience he deserves, and doesn't want a "double", be it Root or a clone, to take the applause away from him. At the same time, Angier is conscious of how much his obsession has hurt others, and by drowning each time the same way his wife did, he can punish himself for his crimes an infinite number of times.

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** Well in In anyone else's hands it probably could have been used for something else, Angier was so obsessed with the magic and [[spoiler:framing Borden]] he never bothered to consider other uses.
** Well he does seem remarkably wealthy at In addition, Money isn't the end despite blowing all his money on research problem for the Matter Duplicator
*** [[spoiler:He was always
Angier. [[spoiler:His true title is Lord Caldrow because Caldlow, it is mentioned early in the movie by his wife that he changed his name to avoid embarrassing his family]]
***
family]]
**
The Duplicator also probably works on money.
** This troper
non-metallic money.

* Why
does wonder why he Angier continually duplicates [[spoiler: and drowns]] himself, rather than duplicating himself once or twice, and using that for the act
*** ** The reason he stops using the body double is because he became too hard to manage; Imagine how hard it would have been to manage a ''copy of himself.''
*** ** Much, ''much'' easier than managing a different person? You already know your duplicate wants to work with you as much as you do with him! Simply resolve "I will work with my duplicate" and then press the button. When you meet him, you're guaranteed to have no problems, because guess what, that guy already resolved to work with his duplicate too! That said, Angier panicked and killed his first duplicate, which would make it nigh-impossible to truly resolve at a gut level that he could trust a counterpart.
*** ** It's definitely easier than [[spoiler:managing a [[AlwaysIdenticalTwins "clone"]] from birth, or however long Borden and Freddy had been at it.]] I guess it just goes to show that he really is the worse magician.
*** ** Angier hates himself. Killing himself over and over and over again is part of a masochistic self-punishment for his wife's death near the beginning of the movie.
*** ** It's established earlier in the movie that Angier is less willing than or able to maintain {{Kayfabe}} than Borden. Look at the lengths [[spoiler:Borden and brother]] had to go to in order to keep the charade going; there's no way Angier would have had the dedication to do that, never mind [[spoiler: two of him]]. Angier's actions, to him, represent a more efficient solution.
*** ** Angier ran the trick at the end using the Machine each time because the entire point was to frame Borden. He had no way of knowing when Borden would end up under the stage, so he set it up that no matter when he did it, he would get caught. All the newly created Angier clone would have to do is listen for screams under the stage, and if he hears them, he doesn't make his grand appearance. That way, the frame up is more of a sure thing.
**** *** There are several overlapping reasons for using the machine the way Angier does. For one, if I understand the movie correctly, the machine is both teleports and clones its subject, each of which has the potential to fulfill one of Angier's goals: the teleportation means that he can preform the greatest magic trick ever seen on stage and beat Borden as an illusionist, and because the machine creates a clone each time, at some point Borden will be found with the dead body (because precisely 100 performances have been booked, Borden has to investigate within a short time frame), thus fulfilling Angier's desire for revenge on Borden for his wife's death. On another level, the reasons are prisoners' dilemma type logic: both the clone and the original think they are the original, know that the other thinks it's the original, and know that because the other has considered killing the other to cover up loose ends, it's in their best interests to figure out how to kill the other first. In order to prevent a scenario like this, Angier decides to have one of the copies die each time. Finally, the reasons are psychological: as the scenes with Root show, Angier feels that he has never received the acclaim from an audience he deserves, and doesn't want a "double", be it Root or a clone, to take the applause away from him. At the same time, Angier is conscious of how much his obsession has hurt others, and by drowning each time the same way his wife did, he can punish himself for his crimes an infinite number of times.



** Not really. And even after Cutter makes him up, he's not a dead ringer for Angier. Borden, and even we in the audience, can tell them apart fairly easily.

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** Not really. And even after Cutter makes him up, he's not a dead ringer for Angier. Borden, and even we in the audience, can tell them apart fairly easily.



* I'm not able to keep straight the characters' names, so I'm using the actors' here. When Hugh Jackman and Christian Bale were working for Ricky Jay [[spoiler: why had Bale pre-arranged to have always lived with his twin brother as one person, just in case he later on needed to do one particular magic trick when he went solo? And if this wasn't so, was the one whose negligence resulted in Jackman's wife's death the one who ended up going to the gallows, or not?]]

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* I'm not able to keep straight the characters' names, so I'm using the actors' here. When Hugh Jackman Angier and Christian Bale Borden were working for Ricky Jay Milton [[spoiler: why had Bale Borden pre-arranged to have always lived with his twin brother as one person, just in case he later on needed to do one particular magic trick when he went solo? And if this wasn't so, was the one whose negligence resulted in Jackman's Angier's wife's death the one who ended up going to the gallows, or not?]]






**** [[spoiler: That's the point: He was willing to commit suicide over and over again in order to receive the adulation of the audience. It was only later that he was willing to rationalise this bizarre act of self-murder by saying "no-one cares about the man in the box. Himself included]]

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**** [[spoiler: That's the point: He was willing to commit suicide over and over again in order to receive the adulation of the audience. It was only later that he was willing to rationalise rationalize this bizarre act of self-murder by saying "no-one cares about the man in the box. Himself included]]









* Why did Jackman [[spoiler: kill his first clone anyway? I assume that the clone would understand this as the plan and would not have to kill each other.]] He could have just done the trick with a normal Tesla coil with the same effect.

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* Why did Jackman Angier [[spoiler: kill his first clone anyway? I assume that the clone would understand this as the plan and would not have to kill each other.]] He could have just done the trick with a normal Tesla coil with the same effect.


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13th Jun '15 8:44:03 AM RobTan
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** [[spoiler: Clearly they've been posing as each other for at least as long as they've been professional magicians, but when did they start? They can't have been pretending to be one person all their lives, children wouldn't have had the patience or the planning skills to manage it, so they must have started somewhere in their early teens at the earliest. Let's say they started pretending to be one person at fourteen, someone must have known them as twin chikdren, even if they were orphans they must have had some friend or casual acquaintance who woukd have noticed one of them was "gone". Before they adopted the "Fallon" disguise, did one of them just hide somewhere while the other lived their life? Come to think of it, since they must have shared jobs as well, how did two men survive on one man's wages in Victorian London?]]

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** [[spoiler: Clearly they've been posing as each other for at least as long as they've been professional magicians, but when did they start? They can't have been pretending to be one person all their lives, children wouldn't have had the patience or the planning skills to manage it, so they must have started somewhere in their early teens at the earliest. Let's say they started pretending to be one person at fourteen, someone must have known them as twin chikdren, children, even if they were orphans they must have had some friend or casual acquaintance who woukd would have noticed one of them was "gone". Before they adopted the "Fallon" disguise, did one of them just hide somewhere while the other lived their life? Come to think of it, since they must have shared jobs as well, how did two men survive on one man's wages in Victorian London?]]
26th May '15 11:24:26 PM BinaryShadow
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** [[spoiler:Tesla may very well have been pursuing that as an upgrade, however Edison and his goons forced him to quickly package up the working prototype and abandon his lab. He even leaves a note begging for Angier to destroy the machine because he knows what he'll do with it.]]
29th Apr '15 12:11:48 AM damnedifiaint
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* So Borden is in prison for killing Angier. Cutter knows Borden is going to be hanged. When he sees that Angier is still alive, why doesn't he at least try to stop Borden from being executed?

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*** IIRC, Cutter saw Angier overseeing the tank's transportation, and Angier told Cutter to leave. Cutter didn't know the exact mechanics until he saw Angier alive under the Lord Caldlow persona, at which point he realized what had been going on. The "It was agony" line was Cutter's last to Angier.

* So Borden is in prison for killing Angier. Cutter knows Borden is going to be hanged. When he sees that Angier is still alive, why doesn't he at least try to stop Borden from being executed?executed?
** Maybe he tried and just didn't reach the prison in time. Cutter's old.
21st Apr '15 5:47:23 PM KyleBrackman
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** [[spoiler: Clearly they've been posing as each other for at least as long as they've been professional magicians, but when did they start? They can't have been pretending to be one person all their lives, children wouldn't have had the patience or the planning skills to manage it, so they must have started somewhere in their early teens at the earliest. Let's say they started pretending to be one person at fourteen, someone must have known them as twin chikdren, even if they were orphans they must have had some friend or casual acquaintance who woukd have noticed one of the was "gone". Before they adopted the "Fallon" disguise, did one of them just hide somewhere while the other lived their life? Come to think of it, since they must have shared jobs as well, how did two men survive on one man's wages in Victorian London?]]
* Why didn't they just unlock the tank [[spoiler:while Julia was drowning]]? Compared to the axe, it's faster, more reliable, and still doesn't spoil the trick's secret.

to:

** [[spoiler: Clearly they've been posing as each other for at least as long as they've been professional magicians, but when did they start? They can't have been pretending to be one person all their lives, children wouldn't have had the patience or the planning skills to manage it, so they must have started somewhere in their early teens at the earliest. Let's say they started pretending to be one person at fourteen, someone must have known them as twin chikdren, even if they were orphans they must have had some friend or casual acquaintance who woukd have noticed one of the them was "gone". Before they adopted the "Fallon" disguise, did one of them just hide somewhere while the other lived their life? Come to think of it, since they must have shared jobs as well, how did two men survive on one man's wages in Victorian London?]]
* Why didn't they just unlock the tank [[spoiler:while Julia was drowning]]? Compared to the axe, ax, it's faster, more reliable, and still doesn't spoil the trick's secret.
6th Mar '15 9:37:25 AM glassbooks
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*** But there is a scene of Cutter watching the blind stage hands moving one of the dead Angier tanks away. He looks like he is about to cry so he must know something is up. It is at the 1:44:20 mark. Also, Cutter tells Caldlow that drowning is agony. Why would he say that if he didn't know?

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*** But there is a scene of Cutter watching the blind stage hands moving one of the dead Angier tanks away. He looks like he is about to cry so he must know something is up. It is at the 1:44:20 mark. Also, Cutter tells Caldlow that drowning is agony. Why would he say that if he didn't know?know?
* So Borden is in prison for killing Angier. Cutter knows Borden is going to be hanged. When he sees that Angier is still alive, why doesn't he at least try to stop Borden from being executed?
21st Feb '15 7:52:51 PM Jobbeybob
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*** The Duplicator also probably works on money.
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