History Headscratchers / ThePrestige

19th Jan '18 5:54:30 AM samitv
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* This is what bugs me from the moment I learned that [[spoiler: Borden and Fallon are twins sharing the life]]. I can understand that [[spoiler:they would like to do that equal-time so that no one would feel pushed into obscurity not able to live his own life]]. But near the end [[spoiler:one of the twin loves his wife while another loves Olivia. Both have to spend time with women they don't love, ruining their brother's relationship. Not only that but it's hinted that because of that Sarah becomes aware of the ruse.]] For me the obvious solution is to [[spoiler:drop the equal-time system and choose roles depending on with whom are you going to spend the time with! Of course it may not be possible to always safely exchange roles and probably they should sometimes do it wrong. But as a result, instead of the guy who half a time is a jerk to everyone, they could create one that's loving and caring for the majority of the time. Sure, he still cheats, but his relationship with both women could go much less dramatic, to the point when his wife could accept it (like "The affair with that woman helps him control his jerkish side") It may be less fair, but wouldn't it bring more happiness for both of them?]]

to:

* This is what bugs me from the moment I learned that [[spoiler: Borden and Fallon are twins sharing the life]]. I can understand that [[spoiler:they would like to do that equal-time so that no one would feel pushed into obscurity not able to live his own life]]. But near the end [[spoiler:one of the twin loves his wife while another loves Olivia. Both have to spend time with women they don't love, ruining their brother's relationship. Not only that but it's hinted that because of that Sarah becomes aware of the ruse.]] For me the obvious solution is to [[spoiler:drop the equal-time system and choose roles depending on with whom are you going to spend the time with! Of course it may not be possible to always safely exchange roles and probably they should sometimes do it wrong. But as a result, instead of the guy who half a time is a jerk to everyone, they could create one that's loving and caring for the majority of the time. Sure, he still cheats, but his relationship with both women could go much less dramatic, to the point when his wife could accept it (like "The affair with that woman helps him control his jerkish side") It may be less fair, but wouldn't it bring more happiness for both of them?]]them?]]
** Considering the way love is (a person usually wants to spend more time with their loved one than someone who doesn't love that person), this probably IS how they spent their time. Borden A with Sarah and Borden B with Olivia. The scenes that we see with the Borden B being with Sarah and causing her hurt and psychological trauma, because he didn't love her, were probably key scenes on days that absolutely necessitated Borden B being at home with Sarah for some reason. This troper hasn't rewatched the film after seeing the twist, but can only recall one scene where Borden A was near Olivia at all and was basically pushing her away in hurt over what this was doing to Sarah. Also, it wasn't just the cheating that hurt Sarah so much. Sarah [[spoiler:: kills herself]] because she can't stand "the lies".
27th Aug '17 4:08:57 PM FordPrefect
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* So. Matter duplicator. Potential source of untold wonders and wealth. Its first use? ExpendableClone

to:

* So. Matter duplicator. Potential source of untold wonders and wealth. Its first use? ExpendableCloneExpendableClone.



** In addition, Money isn't the problem for Angier. [[spoiler:His true title is Lord Caldlow, it is mentioned early in the movie that he changed his name to avoid embarrassing his family]]

to:

** In addition, Money money isn't the problem for Angier. [[spoiler:His true title is Lord Caldlow, it is mentioned early in the movie that he changed his name to avoid embarrassing his family]]family.]]



* Why does Angier continually duplicates [[spoiler: and drowns]] himself, rather than duplicating himself once or twice, and using that for the act

to:

* Why does Angier continually duplicates duplicate [[spoiler: and drowns]] drown]] himself, rather than duplicating himself once or twice, and using that for the actact?



** Angier ran the trick at the end using the Machine each time because the entire point was to frame Borden. He had no way of knowing when Borden would end up under the stage, so he set it up that no matter when he did it, he would get caught. All the newly created Angier clone would have to do is listen for screams under the stage, and if he hears them, he doesn't make his grand appearance. That way, the frame up is more of a sure thing.
*** There are several overlapping reasons for using the machine the way Angier does. For one, if I understand the movie correctly, the machine is both teleports and clones its subject, each of which has the potential to fulfill one of Angier's goals: the teleportation means that he can preform the greatest magic trick ever seen on stage and beat Borden as an illusionist, and because the machine creates a clone each time, at some point Borden will be found with the dead body (because precisely 100 performances have been booked, Borden has to investigate within a short time frame), thus fulfilling Angier's desire for revenge on Borden for his wife's death. On another level, the reasons are prisoners' dilemma type logic: both the clone and the original think they are the original, know that the other thinks it's the original, and know that because the other has considered killing the other to cover up loose ends, it's in their best interests to figure out how to kill the other first. In order to prevent a scenario like this, Angier decides to have one of the copies die each time. Finally, the reasons are psychological: as the scenes with Root show, Angier feels that he has never received the acclaim from an audience he deserves, and doesn't want a "double", be it Root or a clone, to take the applause away from him. At the same time, Angier is conscious of how much his obsession has hurt others, and by drowning each time the same way his wife did, he can punish himself for his crimes an infinite number of times.

to:

** Angier ran the trick at the end using the Machine machine each time because the entire point was to frame Borden. He had no way of knowing when Borden would end up under the stage, so he set it up that no matter when he did it, he would get caught. All the newly created Angier clone would have to do is listen for screams under the stage, and if he hears them, he doesn't make his grand appearance. That way, the frame up is more of a sure thing.
*** There are several overlapping reasons for using the machine the way Angier does. For one, if I understand the movie correctly, the machine is both teleports and clones its subject, each of which has the potential to fulfill one of Angier's goals: the teleportation means that he can preform the greatest magic trick ever seen on stage and beat Borden as an illusionist, and because the machine creates a clone each time, at some point Borden will be found with the dead body (because precisely 100 performances have been booked, Borden has to investigate within a short time frame), thus fulfilling Angier's desire for revenge on Borden for his wife's death. On another level, the reasons are prisoners' dilemma type logic: both the clone and the original think they are the original, know that the other thinks it's the original, and know that because the other has considered killing the other to cover up loose ends, it's in their best interests to figure out how to kill the other first. In order to prevent a scenario like this, Angier decides to have one of the copies die each time. Finally, the reasons are psychological: as the scenes with Root show, Angier feels that he has never received the acclaim from an audience he deserves, and doesn't want a "double", be it Root or a clone, to take the applause away from him. At the same time, Angier is conscious of how much his obsession has hurt others, and by drowning each time the same way his wife did, he can punish himself for his crimes an infinite number of times.



** looks through a few pubs for an evening



*** And apart from maybe size, [[spoiler: there's not much preventing him from using the machine to duplicate the tank, too. Which is probably cheaper than buying a new one]]

* When Angier and Borden were working for Milton [[spoiler: why had Borden pre-arranged to have always lived with his twin brother as one person, just in case he later on needed to do one particular magic trick when he went solo? And if this wasn't so, was the one whose negligence resulted in Angier's wife's death the one who ended up going to the gallows, or not?]]

to:

*** And apart from maybe size, [[spoiler: there's not much preventing him from using the machine to duplicate the tank, too. Which is probably cheaper than buying a new one]]

one.]]

* When Angier and Borden were working for Milton Milton, [[spoiler: why had Borden pre-arranged to have always lived with his twin brother as one person, just in case he later on needed to do one particular magic trick when he went solo? And if this wasn't so, was the one whose negligence resulted in Angier's wife's death the one who ended up going to the gallows, or not?]]



*** [[spoiler: That's the point: He was willing to commit suicide over and over again in order to receive the adulation of the audience. It was only later that he was willing to rationalize this bizarre act of self-murder by saying "no-one cares about the man in the box. Himself included]]
*** [[spoiler: Consider this, the first time, the "clone" says "no no don't !" and then gets shot. I took this to mean that the "clone" is not a clone but the transported Angier, the clone sees that he is a clone and kills Angier taking over his spot, then every performance he is the one transported and kills the new clone]]

to:

*** [[spoiler: That's the point: He was willing to commit suicide over and over again in order to receive the adulation of the audience. It was only later that he was willing to rationalize this bizarre act of self-murder by saying "no-one cares about the man in the box. Himself included]]
included.]]
*** [[spoiler: Consider this, the first time, the "clone" says "no no don't !" don't!" and then gets shot. I took this to mean that the "clone" is not a clone but the transported Angier, the clone sees that he is a clone and kills Angier taking over his spot, then every performance he is the one transported and kills the new clone]]clone.]]



*** Regardless of which [[spoiler:Angier was "real," the Angier consciousness that lives believes the machine is teleporting himself and leaving a copy, which is why he tanks the machineAngier. Why he thinks that is the real question. Perhaps it's because he is under the assumption that Tesla built him a teleporting machine since that's what he asked for. While he knew the alpha version of the machine made clones, he probably assumed that bug was worked out, but just in case, prior to his first test he leaves the gun nearby on the off chance that something goes wrong. Once he creates a clone, both think they're the real Angier. teleportedAngier shouts out that he's the real one because he thinks as much. machineAngier shoots because it's clear one is going to die, however this interaction instills enough doubt to make him believe he's the clone. Upon first performing the trick and drowning himself, the newly created teleportedAngier retains the consciousness and cements the idea that he's teleporting himself. After so many performances, though, he realizes he can never be sure, but at that point he's too afraid to try anything different, which is why he says he doesn't know if he'll be teleported or end up in the box.]]

to:

*** Regardless of which [[spoiler:Angier was "real," the Angier consciousness that lives believes the machine is teleporting himself and leaving a copy, which is why he tanks the machineAngier.machine!Angier. Why he thinks that is the real question. Perhaps it's because he is under the assumption that Tesla built him a teleporting machine since that's what he asked for. While he knew the alpha version of the machine made clones, he probably assumed that bug was worked out, but just in case, prior to his first test he leaves the gun nearby on the off chance that something goes wrong. Once he creates a clone, both think they're the real Angier. teleportedAngier Teleported!Angier shouts out that he's the real one because he thinks as much. machineAngier Machine!Angier shoots because it's clear one is going to die, however this interaction instills enough doubt to make him believe he's the clone. Upon first performing the trick and drowning himself, the newly created teleportedAngier teleported!Angier retains the consciousness and cements the idea that he's teleporting himself. After so many performances, though, he realizes he can never be sure, but at that point he's too afraid to try anything different, which is why he says he doesn't know if he'll be teleported or end up in the box.]]



** Consider this: [[spoiler: the first time Angier used the machine he didn't know which one was the original and which one was the copy. That's where the doubt comes from. Did the clone kill the real Angier or did the real Angier kill the clone? Was he the man in the box(machine) or the man standing some feet away? In the end it doesn't matter, because the original Angier died, he either was shot by the clone that first time he tried the machine, or he killed himself when he implemented the trick with the box and drowned himself. In the end the real Angier was no more.]]

to:

** Consider this: [[spoiler: the first time Angier used the machine he didn't know which one was the original and which one was the copy. That's where the doubt comes from. Did the clone kill the real Angier or did the real Angier kill the clone? Was he the man in the box(machine) box (machine) or the man standing some feet away? In the end it doesn't matter, because the original Angier died, he either was shot by the clone that first time he tried the machine, or he killed himself when he implemented the trick with the box and drowned himself. In the end the real Angier was no more.]]



** Would it be faster than the axe? Fulbing around with a key, especially when you're panicking, can take a surprisingly long time.

to:

** Would it be faster than the axe? Fulbing Fumbling around with a key, especially when you're panicking, can take a surprisingly long time.



** This troper believes that although the movie shows that the rival was that coincidentally chosen for every new trick to ruin it, it could actually have been the 3rd or 4th or some whimsical n-th attempt of the trick. After all, we are shown segements and not a linear portrayal of the chronology of the movie. They could have very well been attempting to get chosen/pick for over 20 times for all we know.

* Once Tesla had [[spoiler:successfully built the cloning device for Angier, how hard could it have been to modify it into being an actual cloning machine? That is, after creating the clone, the machine immediately zaps the man in the machine to destroy him. It would have then worked in the manner that Angier requested, would have made things much easier for Angier given his purposes, and I'm sure a scientist who had the ability to make a cloning device could manage something that destroyed the original. Tesla himself says that nothing is impossible, and if he can create matter (what the machine does is even more complicated than that), he can certainly destroy it. Or are we lead to believe Tesla probably had this planned, but then got attacked by Edison and had to give what he had to Angier before bolting?]]
** Tesla probably realized that [[spoiler:the machine was making actual copies, not just soulless bodies. At this point, to implement some sort of copy-remover would be knowingly murdering a person. Further, there's no way for Tesla to really know which copy is "real," so killing one may lead to killing Angier the moment he steps into the machine. While this isn't the machine Angier requested, he did advise Angier to destroy it probably because he just didn't want to/didn't have time to deal with the ethics of the machine.]]

to:

** This troper believes that although the movie shows that the rival was that coincidentally chosen for every new trick to ruin it, it could actually have been the 3rd or 4th or some whimsical n-th attempt of the trick. After all, we are shown segements segments and not a linear portrayal of the chronology of the movie. They could have very well been attempting to get chosen/pick for over 20 times for all we know.

* Once Tesla had [[spoiler:successfully built the cloning device for Angier, how hard could it have been to modify it into being an actual cloning machine? That is, after creating the clone, the machine immediately zaps the man in the machine to destroy him. It would have then worked in the manner that Angier requested, would have made things much easier for Angier given his purposes, and I'm sure a scientist who had the ability to make a cloning device could manage something that destroyed the original. Tesla himself says that nothing is impossible, and if he can create matter (what the machine does is even more complicated than that), he can certainly destroy it. Or are we lead led to believe Tesla probably had this planned, but then got attacked by Edison and had to give what he had to Angier before bolting?]]
** Tesla probably realized that [[spoiler:the machine was making actual copies, not just soulless bodies. At this point, to implement some sort of copy-remover would be knowingly murdering a person. Further, there's no way for Tesla to really know which copy is "real," so killing one may lead to killing Angier the moment he steps into the machine. While this isn't the machine Angier requested, he did advise Angier to destroy it it, probably because he just didn't want to/didn't have time to deal with the ethics of the machine.]]



* This is what bugs me from the moment I learned that [[spoiler: Borden and Fallon are twins sharing the life]]. I can understand that [[spoiler:they would like to do that equal-time so that no one would feel pushed into obscurity not able to live his own life]]. But near the end [[spoiler:one of the twin loves his wife while another loves Olivia. Both have to spent time with women they don't love ruining their brother's relationship. Not only that but it's hinted that because of that Sarah becomes aware of the ruse.]] For me the obvious solution is to [[spoiler:drop the equal-time system and choose roles depending on with whom are you going to spend the time with! Of course it may not be possible to always safely exchange roles and probably they should sometimes do it wrong. But as result instead of the guy who half a time is a jerk to everyone they could create one that's loving and caring for majority of time. Sure he still cheats but his relationship with both women could go much less dramatic to the point when his wife could accept it (like "The affair with that woman helps him control his jerkish side") It may be less fair but wouldn't it bring more happiness for both of them?]]

to:

* This is what bugs me from the moment I learned that [[spoiler: Borden and Fallon are twins sharing the life]]. I can understand that [[spoiler:they would like to do that equal-time so that no one would feel pushed into obscurity not able to live his own life]]. But near the end [[spoiler:one of the twin loves his wife while another loves Olivia. Both have to spent spend time with women they don't love love, ruining their brother's relationship. Not only that but it's hinted that because of that Sarah becomes aware of the ruse.]] For me the obvious solution is to [[spoiler:drop the equal-time system and choose roles depending on with whom are you going to spend the time with! Of course it may not be possible to always safely exchange roles and probably they should sometimes do it wrong. But as result a result, instead of the guy who half a time is a jerk to everyone everyone, they could create one that's loving and caring for the majority of the time. Sure Sure, he still cheats cheats, but his relationship with both women could go much less dramatic dramatic, to the point when his wife could accept it (like "The affair with that woman helps him control his jerkish side") It may be less fair fair, but wouldn't it bring more happiness for both of them?]]
16th Aug '17 11:51:58 AM VeNoo
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Answering both of these questions together: it's never stated in the film, but it's argued over on the Fridge page--and convincingly so--that [[spoiler:Fallon was the one who tied the Langford Double, killing Julia, and had the affair with Olivia. Borden stayed faithful to Sarah (he actually begs Fallon to help him out in repairing his marriage) and fathered Jess. Fallon ''did'' try to save Angier, though, during the drowning trick, and was the one arrested and hanged in the end while Borden walks away free.]] Of course, like Angier's situation above, [[spoiler:the twins had been sharing one life for so long that any "who's who" questions become academic at a certain point.]]

to:

** Answering both of these questions together: it's never stated in the film, but it's argued over on the Fridge page--and convincingly so--that [[spoiler:Fallon was the one who tied the Langford Double, killing Julia, and had the affair with Olivia. Borden stayed faithful to Sarah (he actually begs Fallon to help him out in repairing his marriage) and fathered Jess. Fallon ''did'' try to save Angier, though, during the drowning trick, and was the one arrested and hanged in the end while Borden walks away free.]] Of course, like Angier's situation above, [[spoiler:the twins had been sharing one life for so long that any "who's who" questions become academic at a certain point.]]]]

* This is what bugs me from the moment I learned that [[spoiler: Borden and Fallon are twins sharing the life]]. I can understand that [[spoiler:they would like to do that equal-time so that no one would feel pushed into obscurity not able to live his own life]]. But near the end [[spoiler:one of the twin loves his wife while another loves Olivia. Both have to spent time with women they don't love ruining their brother's relationship. Not only that but it's hinted that because of that Sarah becomes aware of the ruse.]] For me the obvious solution is to [[spoiler:drop the equal-time system and choose roles depending on with whom are you going to spend the time with! Of course it may not be possible to always safely exchange roles and probably they should sometimes do it wrong. But as result instead of the guy who half a time is a jerk to everyone they could create one that's loving and caring for majority of time. Sure he still cheats but his relationship with both women could go much less dramatic to the point when his wife could accept it (like "The affair with that woman helps him control his jerkish side") It may be less fair but wouldn't it bring more happiness for both of them?]]
3rd Aug '17 1:39:38 PM Sharlee
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** And all that's assuming that [[spoiler: ''either one'' of them is the "original". For all we know, the device might even '''destroy''' the original outright, instantaneously creating ''two'' copies, one in the same spot and one a short distance away. In which case, the whole second half of the film isn't the "real" Angier acting out vengeance for his wife, but clone after clone after clone acting out the legacy of bitterness and spite that their long-dead progenitor saddled them with over a woman ''none of them had ever even met''.]]
14th May '17 4:15:12 PM Atha
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** He was [[spoiler:also having an affair by necessity of their "two people one life" trick.]]
16th Apr '17 1:01:51 AM Mesmiranda
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

** No timelines get split, created or destroyed in the movie. The machine works by duplicating Angier's body, which includes his brain: the location of all his memories, consciousness, thoughts and feelings. As for the matter itself, it probably works on the same principle as the replicators/transporters on ''Star Trek''.




to:

** Do you mean [[https://42thriller2013.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/picture_9-scaled1000.png this guy]] (warning: the image is a little creepy if you're not expecting it)? He's a stagehand that Angier hired specifically for his blindness--that way he can't see what's going on with the drowning tanks.




* [[spoiler: Which twin]] was really responsible for Angier's wife Julia's death?

to:

\n* [[spoiler: Which twin]] was really responsible for Angier's wife Julia's death?death?
** Answering both of these questions together: it's never stated in the film, but it's argued over on the Fridge page--and convincingly so--that [[spoiler:Fallon was the one who tied the Langford Double, killing Julia, and had the affair with Olivia. Borden stayed faithful to Sarah (he actually begs Fallon to help him out in repairing his marriage) and fathered Jess. Fallon ''did'' try to save Angier, though, during the drowning trick, and was the one arrested and hanged in the end while Borden walks away free.]] Of course, like Angier's situation above, [[spoiler:the twins had been sharing one life for so long that any "who's who" questions become academic at a certain point.]]
24th Mar '17 6:04:11 AM Typos
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Did [[spoiler: the "good" twin]] also have an affair with Olivia? Or was he completely loyal to [[spoiler: Sarah]]?

to:

* Did [[spoiler: the "good" twin]] also have an affair with Olivia? Or was he completely loyal to [[spoiler: Sarah]]?Sarah]]?

* [[spoiler: Which twin]] was really responsible for Angier's wife Julia's death?
24th Mar '17 5:59:46 AM Typos
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Who is the old man in the basement?

to:

* Who is the old man in the basement?basement?

* Did [[spoiler: the "good" twin]] also have an affair with Olivia? Or was he completely loyal to [[spoiler: Sarah]]?
16th Mar '17 5:46:17 AM Ymirsdaughter
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

*** And reading skills weren't taught the same way in the 1800s. It would not have occured to him to skim.
8th Mar '17 1:44:47 PM Ymirsdaughter
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Does Angier [[spoiler:create a new timeline]] every time he uses the machine? How does the machine [[spoiler:get enough of the right molecules to make another Angier]]?

to:

* Does Angier [[spoiler:create a new timeline]] every time he uses the machine? How does the machine [[spoiler:get enough of the right molecules to make another Angier]]?Angier]]?

* Who is the old man in the basement?
This list shows the last 10 events of 92. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.ThePrestige