History Headscratchers / TheBorgias

15th Oct '14 3:46:10 PM Siberianchan
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* Season 3, episode 2, Alexander has a nightmare about Juan and wakes up, with Cesare next to him. He then calls Cesare 'our only son'. I understand that it reffers to Juan's death, but what about Joffre? Did he just forget about him?

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* Season 3, episode 2, Alexander has a nightmare about Juan and wakes up, with Cesare next to him. He then calls Cesare 'our only son'. I understand that it reffers to Juan's death, but what about Joffre? Did he just forget about him?him?
** Well, the series hd forgotten about Joffre at that point in general. On a more historical note, Alexander was never THAT fond of his youngest and even doubted him to be his son (after all Vanozza was married and resembled her a lot - while having nothing in common with his siblings or Alexander, neither in looks, nor in ambition, intellignce or temperament.) Basically, he had him married off to Napoli and thought he could forget him until he noticed that his daughter-in-law was a famed beauty of her time and that it might be smart to keep relations with the Aragon family somewhat stable. In short, without Sancia for his wife (being, well... Sancia) Joffre would have been completely ignored by him after his marriage and departure.
2nd Sep '13 7:35:52 AM Gwalch
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*** As of the most recent episode, it has become clear that this loyalty has spread to Lucrezia as well; he makes it abundantly clear that his backing of her in Naples goes beyond the mercenary, and he verges on being blatant when he suggests the King's non-natural death.

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*** As of the most recent episode, it has become clear that this loyalty has spread to Lucrezia as well; he makes it abundantly clear that his backing of her in Naples goes beyond the mercenary, and he verges on being blatant when he suggests the King's non-natural death.death.
* Season 3, episode 2, Alexander has a nightmare about Juan and wakes up, with Cesare next to him. He then calls Cesare 'our only son'. I understand that it reffers to Juan's death, but what about Joffre? Did he just forget about him?
16th May '13 3:44:43 AM BoredMe
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** Micheletto is loyal to Cesare because [[spoiler: Micheletto is gay, officially since season 2 episode 5, but c'mon that whipping scene in the pilot?!]] and kinda likes the idea of getting with someone like Cesare and then that resulting in someone more messed up than him. Killing doesn't mean anything anymore to Micheletto. He's a kinda a psychopath, a commissioned serial killer than an assassin ( you see him kill people that he wasn't even told to ). So the idea of ruining someone's life so badly just so he can have someone to relate to, that basically what Micheletto wants. He just wants someone.

to:

** Micheletto is loyal to Cesare because [[spoiler: Micheletto is gay, officially since season 2 episode 5, but c'mon that whipping scene in the pilot?!]] and kinda likes the idea of getting with someone like Cesare and then that resulting in someone more messed up than him. Killing doesn't mean anything anymore to Micheletto. He's a kinda a psychopath, a commissioned serial killer than an assassin ( you see him kill people that he wasn't even told to ). So the idea of ruining someone's life so badly just so he can have someone to relate to, that basically what Micheletto wants. He just wants someone.someone.
*** As of the most recent episode, it has become clear that this loyalty has spread to Lucrezia as well; he makes it abundantly clear that his backing of her in Naples goes beyond the mercenary, and he verges on being blatant when he suggests the King's non-natural death.
16th May '13 12:53:48 AM shockvaluecola
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** Because the show is shot in English and the pronunciations used are more natural to English speakers than those.
16th May '13 12:49:38 AM shockvaluecola
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*** Your question was already answered: because they lost. Seriously, that's the entire reason. They were much vilified and written about in a terrible way at the time primarily because they were Spaniards who had set up and taken power in Italy, and people didn't like that. People were hypocrites and the Borgias were foreigners, that's why they have such a bad reputation. (Also, they had some women with the gall to not take shit, notably Lucrezia. Historically she's been absolutely lampooned as pretty much the ultimate evil woman, but historians are now pretty sure that she was cunning, but generally good-natured and a survivor of abuse. That was not acceptable in the time either, and while some got away with it, she had it on top of being a foreigner, part of a hated family, illegitimate child of a pope...etc.)
17th Apr '13 9:09:46 AM AzureOwl
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*** Not to mention that at the time the show is set, the Queen of Spain, [[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Los_Reyes_Cat%C3%B3licos_y_la_infanta_do%C3%B1a_Juana.jpg Isabella of Castille]], had a very fair complexion, blue eyes and had a hair color that was between reddish-blonde and auburn.
9th Feb '13 4:57:40 PM Panthera
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** I think the only thing making Rodrigo Borgia stand out by the standards of his own time and did cause outrage was the blatant nepotism (e.g. making Cesare cardinal of Valencia or "inventing" a duchy for Juan) and that he was very open about his paternity and mistress, unlike other contemporary clerics.
3rd Nov '12 4:57:03 PM TVRulezAgain
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* Seven episodes in, I'm starting to have trouble seeing how the Borgias were considered so awful ''by the standards of their time''. By modern standards, yes, there's a whole lot of murder going on. But really, the only thing that seems to be setting them apart is the fact that the family patriarch is the Pope. And considering that Rodrigo seems to be a pretty decent ''politician'', even if his attempts at holiness leave a lot wanting, for non-Catholic viewers it can seem a little like the moral panic over the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair. Meanwhile, I don't think we've met a single member of the ''Sforza'' family who's not extremely unpleasant at best (Caterina as she's portrayed in this) or a CompleteMonster at worst (Giovanni and Lodovico), for example. I get that HistoryMarchesOn and it's more interesting to make your protagonists at least a bit sympathetic, no matter who they are, but at the same time it kind of undercuts the notoriety this show is selling itself on when the Borgias themselves are engaged in nothing worse than their rivals ''and'' [[PetTheDog petting dogs left and right]] while other characters go about doing things like stuffing dead bodies and leaving them on display or committing brutal rapes or assaulting little boys by flashing them.

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* Seven episodes in, I'm starting to have trouble seeing how the Borgias were considered so awful ''by the standards of their time''. By modern standards, yes, there's a whole lot of murder going on. But really, the only thing that seems to be setting them apart is the fact that the family patriarch is the Pope. And considering that Rodrigo seems to be a pretty decent ''politician'', even if his attempts at holiness leave a lot wanting, for non-Catholic viewers it can seem a little like the moral panic over the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair. Meanwhile, I don't think we've met a single member of the ''Sforza'' family who's not extremely unpleasant at best (Caterina as she's portrayed in this) or a CompleteMonster monster at worst (Giovanni and Lodovico), for example. I get that HistoryMarchesOn and it's more interesting to make your protagonists at least a bit sympathetic, no matter who they are, but at the same time it kind of undercuts the notoriety this show is selling itself on when the Borgias themselves are engaged in nothing worse than their rivals ''and'' [[PetTheDog petting dogs left and right]] while other characters go about doing things like stuffing dead bodies and leaving them on display or committing brutal rapes or assaulting little boys by flashing them.
27th Oct '12 9:35:12 AM NaramSin
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**** The Goths did not settle in the north of Spain, but in the center. The Celts were present in the West (it's even possible, but unlikely, that they arrived by sea). The Borgias were from none of the former, but from the eastern coast (Gandia). Simply put, Spain has blonde people because it is a country in Europe populated by Caucasians. It's pointless to try to "blame" their presence on one foreign invader group in particular.
13th Oct '12 6:31:37 PM idrisangel
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** Micheletto is loyal to Cesare because [[spoiler: Micheletto is gay, officially since S2E5, but c'mon that whipping scene in the pilot?!]] and kinda likes the idea of getting with someone like Cesare and then that resulting in someone more messed up than him. Killing doesn't mean anything anymore to Micheletto. He's a kinda a psychopath, a commissioned serial killer than an assassin ( you see him kill people that he wasn't even told to ). So the idea of ruining someone's life so badly just so he can have someone to relate to, that basically what Micheletto wants. He just wants someone.

to:

** Micheletto is loyal to Cesare because [[spoiler: Micheletto is gay, officially since S2E5, season 2 episode 5, but c'mon that whipping scene in the pilot?!]] and kinda likes the idea of getting with someone like Cesare and then that resulting in someone more messed up than him. Killing doesn't mean anything anymore to Micheletto. He's a kinda a psychopath, a commissioned serial killer than an assassin ( you see him kill people that he wasn't even told to ). So the idea of ruining someone's life so badly just so he can have someone to relate to, that basically what Micheletto wants. He just wants someone.
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