History Headscratchers / SupermanVsTheElite

** No, it doesn't. Superman might have used fear and terror tactics against the Elite, but his point in doing so is not just "fear and terror tactics are bad", his point is "fear and terror tactics are bad, ''and here's why''." It's a demonstration of his argument.

*** Not according to Superman. In Superman's view, Atomic Skull is still a person -- a cruel and horrible person, and one with abilities that are beyond most humans, but still a person. Which makes sense, because Superman considers ''himself'' to be a person, and this logic would suggest that ''Superman himself'' shouldn't fall under human law or human morality. A position which Superman himself fundamentally rejects.

*** No, because the story isn't "Superman vs Unstoppable Villain", it's "Superman vs Less Ethical Superheroes". The whole 'Atomic Skull' thing is a side-issue to Superman's broader conflict with the more questionable morals of the Elite.

** Come now; Superman's no dummy. That move was neither wholly unforeseeable or unexpected, nor was the city that the Elite chose completely random and unpredictable. If you seriously, genuinely think that Superman didn't at least suspect that the Elite (a) might try to move the fight to an inhabited city in order to use his hesitation to cause innocent casualties against him and (b) wouldn't choose Metropolis, the single city on Earth that Superman is most closely associated with, as the city to hold hostage, then I know of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge a lovely bridge property]] that's recently come on the market you might be interested in. While things might have gotten a bit dicier had the Elite randomly chosen, say, London or Addis Ababa or Hanoi (though in that case it's likely that Superman would simply drop the pretense if there was no other way), if there is one city on DC Earth that Superman would have been almost 100% certain the Elite would try to use as a card against him and that it might be worth stationing a few clean-up robots around just in case, it is Metropolis.

** Come now; Superman's no dummy. That move was neither wholly unforeseeable or unexpectable, nor was the city that the Elite chose completely random. If you seriously, genuinely think that Superman didn't at least suspect that the Elite (a) might try to move the fight to an inhabited city in order to use his hesitation to cause innocent casualties against him and (b) wouldn't choose Metropolis, the single city on Earth that Superman is most closely associated with, as the city that Superman would be most reluctant to throw down within, then I know of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge a lovely bridge property]] that's recently come on the market you might be interested in. While things might have gotten a bit dicier had the Elite randomly chosen, say, London or Addis Ababa or Hanoi (though in that case it's likely that Superman would simply drop the pretense if there was no other way), if there is one city on DC Earth that Superman would have been almost 100% certain the Elite would try to use as a card against him and that it might be worth stationing a few clean-up robots around just in case, it is Metropolis.

** Come now; Superman's no dummy. That move was neither wholly unexpected nor was the city that the Elite chose completely random. If you seriously, genuinely think that Superman didn't at least suspect that the Elite (a) might try to move the fight to an inhabited city in order to use his hesitation to cause innocent casualties against him and (b) wouldn't choose Metropolis, the single city on Earth that Superman is most closely associated with, as the city that Superman would be most reluctant to throw down within, then I know of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge a lovely bridge property]] that's recently come on the market you might be interested in. While things might have gotten a bit dicier had the Elite randomly chosen, say, London or Addis Ababa or Hanoi (though in that case it's likely that Superman would simply drop the pretense if there was no other way), if there is one city on DC Earth that Superman would have been almost 100% certain the Elite would try to use as a card against him and that it might be worth stationing a few clean-up robots around just in case, it is Metropolis.

** And heck, even in the most favourable interpretation of that event he still willingly caused the deaths of a large amount of people just to save one individual who he happened to care about, and didn't exactly show much remorse for having done so, it's not exactly something you'd throw a parade in his name to celebrate. It's still pretty compelling evidence in Lois and Clark's "Manchester Black doesn't give a shit about killing innocent people if he feels it's in his interests to do so" folder.

** Come now; Superman's no dummy. That move was neither wholly unexpected nor was the city that the Elite chose completely random. If you seriously, genuinely think that Superman didn't at least suspect that the Elite might (a) try to move the fight to an inhabited city in order to use his hesitation to cause innocent casualties against him and (b) wouldn't choose Metropolis, the single city on Earth that Superman is most closely associated with, as the city that Superman would be most reluctant to throw down within, then I know of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge a lovely bridge property]] that's recently come on the market you might be interested in. While things might have gotten a bit dicier had the Elite randomly chosen, say, London or Addis Ababa or Hanoi (though in that case it's likely that Superman would simply drop the pretense if there was no other way), if there is one city on DC Earth that Superman would have been almost 100% certain the Elite would try to use as a card against him and that it might be worth stationing a few clean-up robots around just in case, it is Metropolis.

** Come now; Superman's no dummy. That move was neither wholly unexpected nor was the city that the Elite chose completely random. If you seriously, genuinely think that Superman didn't expect that the Elite would (a) try to move the fight to an inhabited city in order to use his hesitation to cause innocent casualties against him and (b) wouldn't choose Metropolis, the single city on Earth that Superman is most closely associated with, as the city that Superman would be most reluctant to throw down within, then I know of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge a lovely bridge property]] that's recently come on the market you might be interested in. While things might have gotten a bit dicier had the Elite randomly chosen, say, London or Addis Ababa or Hanoi (though in that case it's likely that Superman would simply drop the pretense if there was no other way), if there is one city on DC Earth that Superman would have been almost 100% certain the Elite would try to use as a card against him and that it might be worth stationing a few clean-up robots around, it is Metropolis.

*** "Putting the Elite's actions aside" is a rather silly thing to request of us in this case, considering that the whole moral debate '''''hinges on the Elite's actions'''''. You might as well argue "putting aside the actions of the man who killed your grandmother, it's wrong for you to demand that he be locked up against his will for the rest of his life because locking people up against their will is wrong and two wrongs don't make a right, and if you've previously argued people shouldn't be locked up for life against their will you're a hypocrite". You're demanding that we ignore some pretty important context just to try and prove some moral absolutist point that makes him out to be a hypocrite. Of ''course'' Superman's not going to tolerate someone else's morality when that other person's morality argues that "killing people just to prove a point and scare people into doing the right thing = a-okay moral behaviour". Because a pretty big part of Superman's moral code is that he is opposed to killing people, and it wouldn't even ''be'' a moral debate if Superman was willing to tolerate that particular form of morality.
*** And even if we concede that it is a form of hypocrisy, fact is sometimes you have to do things that are otherwise against your moral code because a greater good demands it. Superman clearly thinks the relatively mild hypocrisy of using his powers to scare and torment people into acting the way he wants them to when he normally wouldn't is outweighed by the greater evil of letting those same people freely go around bullying and killing whoever they want. Notice how it turns out that he was still holding back; in short, there's still a line he wasn't willing to cross. In short, Superman has moral values but he's not a moral absolutist, and is willing to bend his principles slightly if doing so will serve a greater good while doing as little harm as possible.

*** Atomic Skull wasn't the one who needed the lesson about how excessive violence is terrifying, though. What you seem to be saying here is that "Superman should have treated Atomic Skull the same way the Elite treated Atomic Skull" which, however you look at it, is missing the point entirely.

** Come now; Superman's no dummy. That move was neither wholly unexpected nor was the city that the Elite chose completely random. If you seriously, genuinely think that Superman didn't expect that the Elite would (a) try to move the fight to an inhabited city in order to use his hesitation to cause innocent casualties against him and (b) wouldn't choose Metropolis, the single city on Earth that Superman is most closely associated with, as the city that Superman would be most reluctant to throw down within, then I know of [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge a lovely bridge property]] that's recently come on the market you might be interested in. While things might have gotten a bit dicier had the Elite randomly chosen, say, London or Addis Ababa or Hanoi (though in that case it's likely that Superman would simply drop the pretense if there was no other way), if there is one city on DC Earth that Superman could have been almost certain the Elite might try to use as a card against him and that it might be worth stationing a few clean-up robots around, it is Metropolis.

** To be ''entirely'' fair to Lois and Clark, it's not like Manchester Black has given them much reason to trust him or his good intentions by this point. Okay, they're leaping to the wrong conclusion on that one, but they still have plenty of reason to think the worst of him. It's sort of a CryingWolf situation.

* In the final battle, Superman pretends to have become DarkerAndEdgier and uses his robots to avert causalities. Fine. But at one point The Elite use their teleportation to move the entire fight to a populated city, and Superman has ''no'' way to predict this or to know which city they'd choose. That means that he has to be able to deploy his robots to prevent casualties near-instantly to any city in the world. If he can do that, why do any villain attacks cause casualties ever? Why doesn't he just have his robots do this in every single fight? The Elite are clearly not ''weak'' - they're capable of taking on serious opponents who have caused casualties in the past - so if Superman is able to use robots to toy with them this easily, without any risk of casualties (and was certain enough that he could to this that he was willing to take the risk of a fight just to prove a point), then... why do casualties ever occur in any fight anywhere?

** Because they clearly don't care that much. Their whole ''modus operandi'' is "We do whatever's necessary to stop the bad guy." As far as they're concerned, innocent casualties are sometimes necessary to stop the bad guy. They're callous, reckless and trigger-happy, that's a pretty big part of the whole reason Superman has a problem with them.

** It's also arguably as much a demonstration for the people of Metropolis / the world who started clamouring for Superman to be more like the Elite as for the Elite themselves. Superman may not like doing it, but he feels the world needs to be sent a message -- that message being "Okay, so you want me to stop being nice and dorky? You want me to abandon my "old-fashioned" moral code and act with ruthless, lethal efficiency towards my enemies with no interest in potential collateral damage or the lives of the little people? Alrighty then! Here's a little taster of what that really means. Not so cool ''now'', is it?" And the only way for him to send that message with the efficiency it needs to be sent with is for him to temporarily take the gloves off, even if it goes against how he normally acts. Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes people need a good sharp shock to remind them why things they may be taking for granted should be like that.

** Because they clearly don't care that much. Their whole ''modus operandi'' is "We do whatever's necessary to stop the bad guy." As far as they're concerned, innocent casualties are sometimes necessary to stop the bad guy. They're reckless and trigger-happy, that's a pretty big part of the whole reason Superman has a problem with them.