History Headscratchers / SuikodenII

29th Jun '17 1:46:30 AM ChrisX
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*** That feels like saying that having Ridley DIE in Tinto because of him not taking responsibility a bad thing or not enough to alleviate that. Or what about getting rid of the Beast Rune from ravaging the land? Was that not a good thing? Or perhaps ridding the world from a monster like Luca Blight? I mostly scratch my head because it feels like saying 'accepting that position of ruler' annuls the other good things Riou has done to the world and some others (sure, Boris would have replaced Ridley, but again, Ridley's life could have been preserved), regardless of Riou's decisions, it wouldn't be a nice place to wander (or rule over) as long as people like Luca Blight exist. And honestly, the statement above probably only works if Riou aimed for the Best End, but screwed up (leaving 'ruling Dunan' the only choice he had). You had the choice to accept the rulership in the first place, if you do, it has the implication like Riou decided he's fine with ruling, he may want to give 'ruling normally' a shot and lead on a new life, so it's a choice he made. (though at cost of Jowy just waiting, then again that means the Rune of Beginning is not going to be complete, he's definitely not going immortal that way... or is he already immortal just by holding one half of the Rune?)

to:

*** That feels like saying that having Ridley DIE in Tinto because of him not taking responsibility a bad thing or not enough to alleviate that. Or what about getting rid of the Beast Rune from ravaging the land? Was that not a good thing? Or perhaps ridding the world from a monster like Luca Blight? I mostly scratch my head because it feels like saying 'accepting that position of ruler' annuls the other good things Riou has done to the world and some others (sure, Boris would have replaced Ridley, but again, Ridley's life could have been preserved), regardless of Riou's decisions, it wouldn't be a nice place to wander (or rule over) as long as people like Luca Blight exist. And honestly, the statement above probably only works if Riou aimed for the Best End, but screwed up (leaving 'ruling Dunan' the only choice he had). You had the choice to accept the rulership in the first place, if you do, it has the implication like Riou decided he's fine with ruling, he may want to give 'ruling normally' a shot and lead on a new life, so it's a choice he made. (though at cost of Jowy just waiting, then again that means the Rune of Beginning is not going to be complete, he's definitely not going immortal that way... or is he already immortal just by holding one half of the Rune?)Rune?). So in other words, even in Riou's POV, he HAS accomplished some things that would make his life a bit better and the world where he lived a better place, and I don't think most JRPG at the 90's are majorly selfish, even some of the more selfish heroes made selfless choices in the end.
29th Jun '17 1:42:54 AM ChrisX
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*** That feels like saying that having Ridley DIE in Tinto because of him not taking responsibility a bad thing or not enough to alleviate that. Or what about getting rid of the Beast Rune from ravaging the land? Was that not a good thing? Or perhaps ridding the world from a monster like Luca Blight? I mostly scratch my head because it feels like saying 'accepting that position of ruler' annuls the other good things Riou has done to the world and some others (sure, Boris would have replaced Ridley, but again, Ridley's life could have been preserved), regardless of Riou's decisions, it wouldn't be a nice place to wander (or rule over) as long as people like Luca Blight exist. And honestly, the statement above probably only works if Riou aimed for the Best End, but screwed up (leaving 'ruling Dunan' the only choice he had). You had the choice to accept the rulership in the first place, if you do, it has the implication like Riou decided he's fine with ruling, he may want to give 'ruling normally' a shot and lead on a new life, so it's a choice he made. (though at cost of Jowy just waiting, then again that means the Rune of Beginning is not going to be complete, he's definitely not going immortal that way... or is he already immortal just by holding one half of the Rune?)
25th Jun '17 9:59:38 PM xXwindsofchangeXx
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*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. That's not really a reward. That's imprisonment. Particularly for such a gentle-hearted kid that might not be the best fit for negotiating the actual politics of such a large, newly formed nation anyway. Shu, although he mellows out somewhat toward the end, spent most of the game as arguably the most ruthless 'good guys' strategist-figure in ''the entire series.'' And that was mostly out of necessity. Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]

to:

*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. That's not really a reward. That's imprisonment. Particularly for such a gentle-hearted kid that might not be the best fit for negotiating the actual politics of such a large, newly formed nation anyway. Shu, although he mellows out somewhat toward the end, spent most of the game as arguably the most ruthless 'good guys' strategist-figure in ''the entire series.'' And that was mostly out of necessity. Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII]] [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII the following game in the series series]] ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]
25th Jun '17 9:58:48 PM xXwindsofchangeXx
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*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. That's less a reward and more imprisonment -
particularly for such a gentle-hearted kid that was more inspirational figure than administrator or politician and might be woefully out of place actually ''running'' an entire country (Shu, although he mellows out somewhat due to Riou's influence, spends most of the game as arguably the most ruthless protagonist strategist-figure in the entire series. Mostly out of necessity.) Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]

to:

*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. That's less not really a reward and more imprisonment -
particularly
reward. That's imprisonment. Particularly for such a gentle-hearted kid that was more inspirational figure than administrator or politician and might not be woefully out the best fit for negotiating the actual politics of place actually ''running'' an entire country (Shu, such a large, newly formed nation anyway. Shu, although he mellows out somewhat due to Riou's influence, spends toward the end, spent most of the game as arguably the most ruthless protagonist 'good guys' strategist-figure in the ''the entire series. Mostly series.'' And that was mostly out of necessity.) necessity. Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]
25th Jun '17 9:56:15 PM xXwindsofchangeXx
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*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. That's less a reward and more imprisonment.
Particularly for such a gentle-hearted kid that was more inspirational figure than administrator or politician and might be woefully out of place actually ''running'' an entire country (Shu, although he mellows out somewhat due to Riou's influence, spends most of the game as arguably the most ruthless protagonist strategist-figure in the entire series. Mostly out of necessity.) Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]

to:

*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. That's less a reward and more imprisonment.
Particularly
imprisonment -
particularly
for such a gentle-hearted kid that was more inspirational figure than administrator or politician and might be woefully out of place actually ''running'' an entire country (Shu, although he mellows out somewhat due to Riou's influence, spends most of the game as arguably the most ruthless protagonist strategist-figure in the entire series. Mostly out of necessity.) Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]
25th Jun '17 9:55:39 PM xXwindsofchangeXx
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Particularly for such a gentle-hearted kid that was more inspirational figure than administrator or politician and might be woefully out of place actually ''running'' an entire country (Shu, although he mellows out somewhat due to Riou's influence, spends most of the game as arguably the most ruthless protagonist strategist-figure in the entire series. Mostly out of necessity.) Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/Suikoden III]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]

to:

Particularly for such a gentle-hearted kid that was more inspirational figure than administrator or politician and might be woefully out of place actually ''running'' an entire country (Shu, although he mellows out somewhat due to Riou's influence, spends most of the game as arguably the most ruthless protagonist strategist-figure in the entire series. Mostly out of necessity.) Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/Suikoden III]] [[VideoGame/SuikodenIII]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up around too much tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]
25th Jun '17 9:55:01 PM xXwindsofchangeXx
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*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. It's AsskickingEqualsAuthority gone horribly wrong. And it's probably fortunate for Dunan that Riou's such a sweet kid at heart. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/Suikoden III]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up with a bit too much emotional baggage to the point that he finally snaps.]]

to:

*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. It's AsskickingEqualsAuthority gone horribly wrong. And it's probably fortunate That's less a reward and more imprisonment.
Particularly
for Dunan such a gentle-hearted kid that was more inspirational figure than administrator or politician and might be woefully out of place actually ''running'' an entire country (Shu, although he mellows out somewhat due to Riou's such influence, spends most of the game as arguably the most ruthless protagonist strategist-figure in the entire series. Mostly out of necessity.) Although, for what it's worth, Riou's gentle temperament would probably be a sweet kid at heart. mercy for everyone else. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/Suikoden III]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up with a bit around too much emotional baggage to the point that he tragedy and pain and finally snaps.]]
25th Jun '17 9:33:43 PM xXwindsofchangeXx
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Added DiffLines:


*** It's depressing because Suikoden II isn't told from Dunan's POV. It's told from ''Riou's'' POV. And in most JRPGs, particularly ones from the 90s, the hero either [[EarnYourHappyEnding earns a happy ending for himself]] ''or'', worst-case scenario, [[HeroicSacrifice gets to die relatively at peace with his sacrifice somehow having saved the world.]] In the ''other'' endings, ''Riou gets neither.'' He loses what's left of the only people he could call family (and remember, he was a [[ParentalAbandonment ''war orphan'' to begin with, so now he's lost ''two'' families]]), has to deal with the pressures of running a country that really doesn't need him to continue operating (things go just fine for Dunan in his absence) mainly because of the presence of a rune that he really doesn't want or need. It's AsskickingEqualsAuthority gone horribly wrong. And it's probably fortunate for Dunan that Riou's such a sweet kid at heart. [[spoiler:Because [[VideoGame/Suikoden III]] the following game in the series ends up being an object lesson about the problems that can ensue for an entire region when a teenager with a true Rune grows up with a bit too much emotional baggage to the point that he finally snaps.]]
22nd Jul '16 10:39:38 AM Maxx_Crowley
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**** I'm not sure what you're talking about. I find the ending where I club my traitorous ex-friend Jowy to death and then go on to rule a country extremely satisfying. I also prefer that my step sister actually dies doing her best to help me, rather then abandoning me because "Her poor heart just can't take watching two former friends fight." and causing me to go through the anguish of her death only to be faking the entire time. By the end of the game Jowy had pushed so many of my buttons that I truly hated him. I wanted that bastard dead, and I took great pleasure in beating him to death. The so called golden ending was not only so sickly sweet it made my teeth hurt, but the first time I saw it, it sent me into a quiet rage. All that betrayal...just forgiven? Really? Jowy tries to kill me, Namami abandons me, and somehow I'm just supposed to forget all that, slap on a smile, and wander the world with them? FFFF-that.
8th Dec '15 2:35:42 AM judasmartel
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* I wonder if there is an explanation beyond "[[WhatCouldHaveBeen We don't have enough game spaces left!]]" about how neither Neclord nor Hix, Tengaar or even Tir (if you bring him along, it's possible) to recognize each other. Even if Neclord can pull ButForMeItWasTuesday because it's the doppelganger that was in Toran, Neclord was an important part in both Hix and Tengaar's lives, because Tengaar's abduction by Neclord was the thing that spurred Hix to [[TookALevelInBadass become a warrior]], it was a mandatory quest in the first game, not optional. Tir was also there to screw up with his plan instead of just sending Viktor alone (though that was what happened in the Drama CD), but for the three to just treat Neclord like 'just a new threat' instead of an old familiar face is... kind of confusing. The most we can get is Neclord being mentioned in Tengaar's first investigation, but aside of that... nothing else?
** Asides the spaces excuse, the focus of Neclord's Arc is more on Viktor's quest for revenge than Hix and Tengaar seeing a familiar face in a different place. Naturally the latter part hasn't gotten any focus.

to:

* I wonder if there is an explanation beyond "[[WhatCouldHaveBeen We don't have enough game spaces left!]]" about how neither Neclord nor Hix, Tengaar or even Tir (if you bring him along, it's possible) to recognize each other. Even if Neclord can pull ButForMeItWasTuesday because it's the doppelganger that was in Toran, Neclord was an important part in both Hix and Tengaar's lives, because Tengaar's abduction by Neclord was the thing that spurred Hix to [[TookALevelInBadass become a warrior]], it was a mandatory quest in the first game, not optional. Tir was also there to screw up with his plan instead of just sending Viktor alone (though that was what happened in the Drama CD), but for the three to just treat Neclord like 'just a new threat' instead of an old familiar face is... kind of confusing. The most we can get is Neclord being mentioned in Tengaar's first investigation, but aside of that... nothing else?
** Asides the spaces excuse, the focus of Neclord's Arc is more on Viktor's quest for revenge than Hix and Tengaar seeing a familiar face in a different place. Naturally the latter part hasn't gotten any focus.
else?
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