History Headscratchers / StarTrekTheNextGeneration

27th Jul '17 4:26:59 PM psionycx
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** It was indicative of the corruption on the Council. Because females could not be members of, much less lead, the Council during this time period their house had to put forward a male candidate for chancellor even if it was understood that Toral would be a figurehead. Remember that the Duras faction was also willing to ally with the Romulans. If Gowron had to fight Toral it would not be surprising if Gowron had an "accident" that Duras supporters on the Council would refuse to investigate. Basically, a civil war was going to happen regardless and Toral being a controllable puppet was seen as a feature not a bug by Lursa, B'Etor and their backers.
26th Jul '17 9:30:20 PM ShorinBJ
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** There was the Betreka Nebula Incident, an 18 year NoodleIncident mentioned in DS9's "Way of the Warrior." We have no idea what happened or when, but it does imply that there was an extended period of hostility between the Klingon Empire and the Cartesian Union at some time prior to the TNG era. Since we know so little about both conflicts, you might even speculate that it was the Klingons who drug the Federation into their already in-progress fight with the Cardassian Union. Or even that the Cardassians attacked the Federation in hopes of disrupting any material support that the Federation might be sending to their Klingon allies. We just don't have enough information about the war for anything more than idle speculation.

to:

** There was the Betreka Nebula Incident, an 18 year NoodleIncident mentioned in DS9's [=DS9=]'s "Way of the Warrior." We have no idea what happened or when, but it does imply that there was an extended period of hostility between the Klingon Empire and the Cartesian Union at some time prior to the TNG era. Since we know so little about both conflicts, you might even speculate that it was the Klingons who drug the Federation into their already in-progress fight with the Cardassian Union. Or even that the Cardassians attacked the Federation in hopes of disrupting any material support that the Federation might be sending to their Klingon allies. We just don't have enough information about the war for anything more than idle speculation.


Added DiffLines:

[[folder: Toral's Claim]]

* Why is Toral's claim to be Duras' successor a threat in the first place? Remember, Duras never gained leadership of the High Council in the first place; he and Gowron were considered the two strongest challengers to the position, and the way it worked was they were going to fight for it. This was rendered moot when Worf killed Duras. Everyone seems to think that if Toral's established as being Duras' son, which he is, he inherits the top job. Again, from his father who never had it. Seems like all he could accomplish, if Picard accepts his claim, is to be where his father was -- dueling Gowron to the death. How'd his aunts think that would go? You'd think Gowron would be like, "Sure, let's fight." He'd kill the scrawny kid in two seconds, and that would be that. Duras' sisters try to influence Picard to validate Toral's claim, but it looks like he does them a favor by not setting up their puppet to die, so they can have a fight between fleets and armies instead.
[[/folder]]
23rd Jul '17 3:56:58 PM NewVirginiaCreeper
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** No doubt she was imagining what the fanfic reworking of "Where Silence Has Lease" would be like.
21st Jul '17 8:47:59 PM ShorinBJ
Is there an issue? Send a Message



to:

[[/folder]]
21st Jul '17 8:47:25 PM ShorinBJ
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** I'll give you a short list off the top of my head: Mr. Eddington Sabotaged a joint Bajoran/Federation starbase that had a significant civilian population, assaulted that base's second officer and illegally assumed command, stole Federation equipment that was intended for humanitarian relief, once again assaulted a superior officer, sabotaged a Federation starship, fired on same while it had no deflector shields or ability to defend itself, sent a false distress signal with the intent of firing on ''yet another'' federation starship, left that ship and its crew adrift and defenseless, engaged in piracy by attacking merchant vessels to steal their cargo, used that cargo to manufacture chemical weapons, poisoned the biosphere of a foreign planet in a demilitarized zone to displace that entire planet's civilian population, fired on an unarmed civilian ship carrying refugees from the planet he poisoned with chemical weapons, and endangered the already uneasy peace between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union. I think by any measure, Mr. Eddington was a dangerous criminal who needed to be stopped.

to:

*** I'll give you a short list off the top of my head: Mr. Eddington Sabotaged a joint Bajoran/Federation starbase that had a significant civilian population, assaulted that base's second officer and illegally assumed command, stole Federation equipment that was intended for humanitarian relief, once again assaulted a superior officer, sabotaged a Federation starship, fired on same while it had no deflector shields or ability to defend itself, sent a false distress signal with the intent of firing on ''yet another'' federation Federation starship, left that ship and its crew adrift and defenseless, engaged in piracy by attacking merchant vessels to steal their cargo, used that cargo to manufacture chemical weapons, poisoned the biosphere of a foreign planet in a demilitarized zone to displace that entire planet's civilian population, fired on an unarmed civilian ship carrying refugees from the planet he poisoned with chemical weapons, and endangered the already uneasy peace between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union. I think by any measure, Mr. Eddington was a dangerous criminal who needed to be stopped.



*** Its important to note that neither Eddington or Sisko used the sort of chemical weapons that killed on contact. Lines of dialogue make it very clear that their attack will simply make it impossible for Cardassians or Humans to inhabit the affected worlds for several decades. Both populations have time to evacuate, and the Cardassians even are shown to be doing so--Eddington goes so far as to fire on one of the refugee ships as a distraction while he escapes. While its clear that both mens' actions are in fact crimes, these crimes are not on the order of mass murder.

to:

*** Its important to note that neither Eddington or Sisko used the sort of chemical weapons that killed on contact. Lines of dialogue make it very clear that their attack will simply make it impossible for Cardassians or Humans humans to inhabit the affected worlds for several decades. Both populations have time to evacuate, and the Cardassians even are shown to be doing so--Eddington goes so far as to fire on one of the refugee ships as a distraction while he escapes. While its clear that both mens' actions are in fact crimes, these crimes are not on the order of mass murder.



* Also, knowing Worf he would consider it an honor to stand while on duty, that's what Warriors do, stand and fight.

to:

* Also, knowing Worf he would consider it an honor to stand while on duty, that's what Warriors warriors do, stand and fight.



*** Probably the reason why Geordie and Ro became invisible and intangible it’s because when out of phase photons of light can’t touch them either, so it makes sense that while they do can see the other people and the rest of the ship (they are not affected by the effect and photons touch them normally) Geordie and Ro are both invisible and intangible. The real question is why aren’t they audible, after all, the waves of sound they produce by their vocal cords should still be functional, and if not, then they won’t be able to hear one another. And, scratch that, the real question is why they don’t fly around in space if they’re out of phase why they can still remain in the ship at all. So, again, it is impossible to make a ship intangible and visible at the same time, because visibility depends on physics, or put in another way, depends on the object be physical and able to be touch by light particles.

to:

*** Probably the reason why Geordie Geordi and Ro became invisible and intangible it’s because when out of phase photons of light can’t touch them either, so it makes sense that while they do can see the other people and the rest of the ship (they are not affected by the effect and photons touch them normally) Geordie and Ro are both invisible and intangible. The real question is why aren’t they audible, after all, the waves of sound they produce by their vocal cords should still be functional, and if not, then they won’t be able to hear one another. And, scratch that, the real question is why they don’t fly around in space if they’re out of phase why they can still remain in the ship at all. So, again, it is impossible to make a ship intangible and visible at the same time, because visibility depends on physics, or put in another way, depends on the object be physical and able to be touch by light particles.



*** I believe one of the DS( crew (either Wolfe or Moore) said that they envisioned the Federation as analogous to the US before the Civil War, but with the individual 'states' (i.e. worlds) having greater autonomy, all managing their own internal affairs and having their own sovereign governments, while the Federation government deals with matters that affect the Federation as a whole, or disputes between member worlds.

to:

*** I believe one of the DS( DS9 crew (either Wolfe or Moore) said that they envisioned the Federation as analogous to the US before the Civil War, but with the individual 'states' (i.e. worlds) having greater autonomy, all managing their own internal affairs and having their own sovereign governments, while the Federation government deals with matters that affect the Federation as a whole, or disputes between member worlds.



** Tasha's colony seceded, meaning it was a colony that voted to leave the Federation. And it was made clear throughout the series that The Federation does not go where they are not wanted, most clearly spelled out in the episode "First Contact" where Picard and Durken (the leader of that episode's world of the week) have this discussion on Federation membership:

to:

** Tasha's colony seceded, meaning it was a colony that voted to leave the Federation. And it was made clear throughout the series that The the Federation does not go where they are not wanted, most clearly spelled out in the episode "First Contact" where Picard and Durken (the leader of that episode's world of the week) have this discussion on Federation membership:



-->Picard: We will leave and never return\\

*** Pretty cold, but yes that is the way it is. They voted to remove themselves from Federation law and jurisdiction and if they can get a message off saying "help I want to leave" then a Starship will pick them up, if not then that is their problem not the Federation's. If they chose to stay after the Federation withdrawal then they chose a path that had a lot of pain in it, but it was their choice to make. Until the colony unites and votes to re-apply for Federation membership, it is really on its own.

to:

-->Picard: We will leave and never return\\

return.
*** Pretty cold, but yes that is the way it is. They voted to remove themselves from Federation law and jurisdiction and if they can get a message off saying "help I want to leave" then a Starship starship will pick them up, if not then that is their problem not the Federation's. If they chose to stay after the Federation withdrawal then they chose a path that had a lot of pain in it, but it was their choice to make. Until the colony unites and votes to re-apply for Federation membership, it is really on its own.



** I dunno about Betazoids, but Vulcans are known to be intensely private about ''pon farr''. They super don't want to talk about it even amongst themselves, let alone to outsiders.



**** Three Betazoids. Lon Suder was one.



*** Maybe I was naïve, but I interpreted Worf’s words as if the Klingon Empire does invaded and conquered other peoples, but they eventually freed their worlds, even when keeping the word “Empire”, something like the British Empire when it started to release all its colonies. Probably maintaining a certain political influence, like the British Commonwealth, but that’s a WMG. In any case, both TOS and ENT do show the Klingons as conquerors and having some subject races or intending to conquering someone (Kirk implied that to the Organians before he knew they were god-like aliens).

to:

*** Maybe I was naïve, but I interpreted Worf’s words as if the Klingon Empire does has invaded and conquered other peoples, but they eventually freed their worlds, even when keeping the word “Empire”, something like the British Empire when it started to release all its colonies. Probably maintaining a certain political influence, like the British Commonwealth, but that’s a WMG. In any case, both TOS and ENT do show the Klingons as conquerors and having some subject races or intending to conquering someone (Kirk implied that to the Organians before he knew they were god-like aliens).



*** I've always had the feel that Romulans were more of a darwinian meritocracy than explicitly racist. Sela might have been seen as having the zeal of the converted, plus she was raised on Romulus all her life, so it's not as though she'd really be considered an outsider. There is another episode that features a fully human turncoat Starfleet officer that lived in the Romulan Empire for something like twenty years and rose to a pretty decent rank in the Romulan military before turning himself over to the Enterprise.

to:

*** I've always had the feel that Romulans were more of a darwinian Darwinian meritocracy than explicitly racist. Sela might have been seen as having the zeal of the converted, plus she was raised on Romulus all her life, so it's not as though she'd really be considered an outsider. There is another episode that features a fully human turncoat Starfleet officer that lived in the Romulan Empire for something like twenty years and rose to a pretty decent rank in the Romulan military before turning himself over to the Enterprise.



** Simple answer: Sela's father is an extremely powerful member of the military. She proved she loved daddy more than mommy from a young age. He probably molded her in his own image and had anyone that said something disparaging about her mixed ancestry poisoned. Her father was powerful and politically connected, she was his darling, he conspired to get her placed in high position and she kept that position by being a cruel, callous bitch worthy of the rank. Makes perfect sense.
* Before ''Film/StarTrekNemesis'', when all we knew about the movie was that it was going to involve Romulans, this troper was convinced that Sela would be either the BigBad of that movie, or preform a HeelFaceTurn. Then, the movie came out, and Sela wasn't even alluded to.

to:

** Simple answer: Sela's father is an extremely powerful member of the military. She proved she loved daddy Daddy more than mommy Mommy from a young age. He probably molded her in his own image and had anyone that said something disparaging about her mixed ancestry poisoned. Her father was powerful and politically connected, she was his darling, he conspired to get her placed in high position and she kept that position by being a cruel, callous bitch worthy of the rank. Makes perfect sense.
* Before ''Film/StarTrekNemesis'', when all we knew about the movie was that it was going to involve Romulans, this troper was convinced that Sela would be either the BigBad of that movie, or preform perform a HeelFaceTurn. Then, the movie came out, and Sela wasn't even alluded to.



** Maybe they just realized that Sela wasn't any better a character than Tasha.



* In "Unification" there is subplot that [[spoiler: Romulans have stolen the Vulcan vessel to carry invasion troops]] after [[spoiler: false statement of reunification. Why, if reunification was successful, there would be Vulcan vessels on Romulus?]] I mean starfleet could just ask Vulcans if they [[spoiler: send any vessel which would be a bit suspicious if they stated that thay hadn't.]] Also what was the reason of saying Spock that [[spoiler: reunification is false instead of just tricking him to the last moment]] - ok. it was spoiled but see next question? Also what is suspicious in that [[spoiler: Romulan inteligence have top-secret informations even if it is 4 digits? Even if it was the time of meeting of second in command of Romulan Empire? I mean - if there was an important talk with vice-president/vice-prime minister (depending on country) I'm sure security would know every detail]].

to:

* In "Unification" there is subplot that [[spoiler: Romulans have stolen the Vulcan vessel to carry invasion troops]] after [[spoiler: false statement of reunification. Why, if reunification was successful, there would be Vulcan vessels on Romulus?]] I mean starfleet Starfleet could just ask Vulcans if they [[spoiler: send sent any vessel which would be a bit suspicious if they stated that thay hadn't.]] Also what was the reason of saying Spock that [[spoiler: reunification is false instead of just tricking him to the last moment]] - ok. it was spoiled but see next question? Also what is suspicious in that [[spoiler: Romulan inteligence have top-secret informations even if it is 4 digits? Even if it was the time of meeting of second in command of Romulan Empire? I mean - if there was an important talk with vice-president/vice-prime minister (depending on country) I'm sure security would know every detail]].



** Because they weren't completely evil in the [=TNG=] series. They were xenophobic and very distrusting, but the federation wasn't exactly friendly towards the Romulans either. Given the history between the two sides, the whole thing is kind of understandable. Plus, it was shown from [=TNG=] onwards that the Romulans were actually very sensitive, emotional beings and cared deeply for one another -- in fact, they were fairly similar to humans in numerous ways. They wouldn't kill him solely for being human.

to:

** Because they weren't completely evil in the [=TNG=] series. They were xenophobic and very distrusting, but the federation Federation wasn't exactly friendly towards the Romulans either. Given the history between the two sides, the whole thing is kind of understandable. Plus, it was shown from [=TNG=] onwards that the Romulans were actually very sensitive, emotional beings and cared deeply for one another -- in fact, they were fairly similar to humans in numerous ways. They wouldn't kill him solely for being human.



** You could make an argument that Picard is far more responsible for those deaths. He arrogantly asserted that they were ready to encounter anything, he decided to poke around rather than head back to Federation space immediately despite Guinan's warning, he didn't take the Borg threat as seriously as he should have at first despite Guinan's second warning, and his damned pride kept him from asking Q to send them back until it was already too late for those eighteen crew members.



*** That is pretty much the idea of any second-in-command position in any kind of field; they're there to take over if for whatever reason the person above them isn't there to preform those duties.

to:

*** That is pretty much the idea of any second-in-command position in any kind of field; they're there to take over if for whatever reason the person above them isn't there to preform perform those duties.



*** The XO is responsible for keeping the ship running smoothly, sweating the little details that are beneath the captain. He has a ton of shit to do besides waiting until he's needed for away missions or taking command.



* WMGing here, but maybe it's as simple as the Satarran's mind control technology not working on their enemy species (who's name escapes me for the moment) for whatever reason. As for having Satarrans take over the Enterprise and use it themselves, that would likely take weeks, months or even years of work studying it in order for their much more technologically primitive society than the Feds to not only run the ship, but not blow it up trying to. The Satarrans may not have had the time for it, either because they were on the verge of losing or because they realized that stealing the Federation's Flagship would have brought the full force of the Federation down on them pretty quickly.

to:

* WMGing here, but maybe it's as simple as the Satarran's Satarrans' mind control technology not working on their enemy species (who's name escapes me for the moment) for whatever reason. As for having Satarrans take over the Enterprise and use it themselves, that would likely take weeks, months or even years of work studying it in order for their much more technologically primitive society than the Feds to not only run the ship, but not blow it up trying to. The Satarrans may not have had the time for it, either because they were on the verge of losing or because they realized that stealing the Federation's Flagship would have brought the full force of the Federation down on them pretty quickly.


Added DiffLines:

** Watch it. After "feminine", she gets this panicked look and jerks around, like Nagilum was looking up her hoo-ha.


Added DiffLines:

[[folder: Why kill Yuta?]]
* In "The Vengeance Factor", Riker finds out his sex bunny of the week, Yuta, is going around killing descendants of the clan that wiped out hers. He goes to stop her with a phaser. Alone. Without, say, Worf or Data. He tries to get her to call the vendetta off. She refuses, and keeps going after her target until Riker shoots her with a blast that vaporizes her. There was no middle ground here? Like wrestle her to the ground to keep her away from the target? Does she have super strength? Literally her only weapon was a virus engineered to kill members of the other clan ''and no one else''. Even if touching her would have given Riker the virus (and he already had touched her), he'd just need to avoid touching this guy he'd never see again. No other option is considered. While the lower level phaser blasts don't knock her out, they do slow her down. How about getting the target away from her while keeping her immobile? Riker tells him not to move! And he doesn't! Neither does literally anyone else. Picard is right there -- he doesn't try to tackle her or anything. Or...beam her to another location? Beam her victim away? There's at least a dozen ways to resolve this that don't involve killing her. It's almost as if the writers wanted Riker to have to kill her, but didn't want to create a situation in which there was no time to find another way, because then they wouldn't have been able to look tearfully into each other's eyes as Riker begs her to stop.
21st Jul '17 7:51:27 PM ShorinBJ
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Red doesn't signify command track, it's Tactical. Riker could have been on the command track but serving it through Operations up to a certain point, as a security officer. Security would give him a much better opportunity to gain away mission experience, after all. After the promotion to Commander he may have requested a transfer to Tactical, which would have put him on a more direct path to commanding his own ship, making him eligible for First Officer positions. Or he could have moved back and forth between the two as his mentors over the years advised him. Considering his experience as an Ensign (helping thwart a mutiny against a Captain he quickly realized was corrupt and immoral), he may have transferred out of Tactical and into Operations for awhile specifically to get away from the man and his associates.
*** It's well established that Riker spent some time in Tactical/Security during his lieutenant years. That's actually how me met Troi; he was part of a Starfleet security detail on her planet.

to:

** Red doesn't signify command track, it's Tactical. Riker could have been on the command track but serving it through Operations up to a certain point, as a security officer. Security would give him a much better opportunity to gain away mission experience, after all. After the promotion to Commander he may have requested a transfer to Tactical, which would have put him on a more direct path to commanding his own ship, making him eligible for First Officer positions. Or he could have moved back and forth between the two as his mentors over the years advised him. Considering his experience as an Ensign ensign (helping thwart a mutiny against a Captain captain he quickly realized was corrupt and immoral), he may have transferred out of Tactical and into Operations for awhile specifically to get away from the man and his associates.
*** It's well established that Riker spent some time in Tactical/Security during his lieutenant years. That's actually how me he met Troi; he was part of a Starfleet security detail on her planet.



*** It is a senior [=NCO's=] job to guide junior officers in making the right decisions. While Ensign Ro, as the senior line officer present, should have had command, she would have been wise to rely on the chief's decades of experience. It would be in poor taste--and potentially dangerous--for an Ensign to countermand or ignore the judgement of a chief petty officer. Senior officers know this and tend to side with the Senior [=NCO=]s after the fact.

to:

*** It is a senior [=NCO's=] job to guide junior officers in making the right decisions. While Ensign Ro, as the senior line officer present, should have had command, she would have been wise to rely on the chief's decades of experience. It would be in poor taste--and potentially dangerous--for an Ensign to countermand or ignore the judgement of a chief petty officer. Senior officers know this and tend to side with the Senior senior [=NCO=]s after the fact.



*** This actually does happen early in the series. First season episode "The Aresenal of Freedom" has Geordi, a bridge officer being in command of the ship while the captain and commander are stuck on the planet. The chief of engineering requesting that Georgi a lieutenant J.G. relinquish command to him as a lieutenant commander but not being able to take it by issuing a direct order.

to:

*** This actually does happen early in the series. First season episode "The Aresenal Arsenal of Freedom" has Geordi, a bridge officer being in command of the ship while the captain and commander are stuck on the planet. The chief of engineering requesting that Georgi a lieutenant J.G. relinquish command to him as a lieutenant commander but not being able to take it by issuing a direct order.



*** There might be a little logic leap here, but the ranks in Starfleet seem to be similar to those of the U.S. military (the Navy, specifically). I believe that if you have the qualifications to be a counsellor (such as a Master's degree in Social Work or Counselling) and you join the military as a counselor, you start out at an officer's rank (lieutenant, not ensign, as part of the Medical Service Corps). Deanna could have been promoted from there. Addendum: If Wiki/TheOtherWiki is correct, she's been out of the academy about five years as of the start of the series. Maybe she got her promotion from Lieutenant to Lt-Commander as of her assignment to the ship.
*** The question being: why? People on other career paths have taken ''much'' longer to achieve that rank (Data at one point states that he has been in Starfleet for 26 years!). It could leave one wondering why ''every'' ambitious officer doesn't choose Counselor as a starting point for their careers if they can expect such a rapid advancement through the ranks. However, Ezri Dax (also a Counselor) started out as an ensign, and was promoted to lieutenant junior grade when she joined [=DS9=]. She apparently was not made a lieutenant automatically upon graduation from the Academy. At no point is it indicated that Deanna had a long and distinguished career behind her that would explain why she would possibly hold a rank higher than lieutenant, much less lieutenant-commander, after so short a time! The breadth of her skill set often seems awfully narrow and specialized as compared to the other main characters.

to:

*** There might be a little logic leap here, but the ranks in Starfleet seem to be similar to those of the U.S. military (the Navy, specifically). I believe that if you have the qualifications to be a counsellor counselor (such as a Master's degree in Social Work or Counselling) counseling) and you join the military as a counselor, you start out at an officer's rank (lieutenant, not ensign, as part of the Medical Service Corps). Deanna could have been promoted from there. Addendum: If Wiki/TheOtherWiki is correct, she's been out of the academy about five years as of the start of the series. Maybe she got her promotion from Lieutenant to Lt-Commander as of her assignment to the ship.
*** The question being: why? People on other career paths have taken ''much'' longer to achieve that rank (Data at one point states that he has been in Starfleet for 26 years!). It could leave one wondering why ''every'' ambitious officer doesn't choose Counselor as a starting point for their careers if they can expect such a rapid advancement through the ranks. However, Ezri Dax (also a Counselor) counselor) started out as an ensign, and was promoted to lieutenant junior grade when she joined [=DS9=]. She apparently was not made a lieutenant automatically upon graduation from the Academy. At no point is it indicated that Deanna had a long and distinguished career behind her that would explain why she would possibly hold a rank higher than lieutenant, much less lieutenant-commander, after so short a time! The breadth of her skill set often seems awfully narrow and specialized as compared to the other main characters.



*** Eye Candy. That's about it. Once the show [[GrowingTheBeard Grew the Beard]], her day-to-day work role was pretty much confined to warbling "Captain! I sense ''Dayn-Ger''!" and wearing nice outfits on the bridge. Ironically, as stated in the folder above, her lack of knowledge about pretty much everything shouldn't have been a drawback - as long as she was trained and competent to make command ''decisions'' in the event that all the other Bridge staff were incapacitated. But she clearly wasn't, which means she should never have been allowed on the bridge in the first place - rank and position are not the same thing at all. Commander LaForge was higher ranked than some of the Bridge crew, but he was based in engineering, where he could be of most use. He just didn't look as good in a clinging, V-necked one-piece (YMMV).

to:

*** Eye Candy. That's about it. Once the show [[GrowingTheBeard Grew the Beard]], her day-to-day work role was pretty much confined to warbling "Captain! I sense ''Dayn-Ger''!" and wearing nice outfits on the bridge. Ironically, as stated in the folder above, her lack of knowledge about pretty much everything shouldn't have been a drawback - as long as she was trained and competent to make command ''decisions'' in the event that all the other Bridge staff were incapacitated. But she clearly wasn't, which means she should never have been allowed on the bridge in the first place - rank and position are not the same thing at all. Commander LaForge La Forge was higher ranked than some of the Bridge bridge crew, but he was based in engineering, where he could be of most use. He just didn't look as good in a clinging, V-necked one-piece (YMMV).



After all, the whole ''point'' of ensigns is that they're baby officers, and the rank essentially serves as a post-academy finishing school; the whole ''point'' of long-service NCOs is to serve as a repository for exactly the kind of institutional knowledge baby officers need, and as instructors and mentors to help those baby officers grow up right; and the whole ''point'' of staff officers is that they specialize in support roles, part of which is supplying line officers with the information they need to do their job right. It would've been a great way to develop all three characters, an opportunity to build some genuine tension that didn't rely on a lot of painfully obvious contrivances, ''and'' it would've made a perfect excuse to lop off that tiresome Ten Forward C-plot time-filler in favor of something actually worthwhile. Ah, WhatCouldHaveBeen...

to:

After all, the whole ''point'' of ensigns is that they're baby officers, and the rank essentially serves as a post-academy finishing school; the whole ''point'' of long-service NCOs [=NCOs=] is to serve as a repository for exactly the kind of institutional knowledge baby officers need, and as instructors and mentors to help those baby officers grow up right; and the whole ''point'' of staff officers is that they specialize in support roles, part of which is supplying line officers with the information they need to do their job right. It would've been a great way to develop all three characters, an opportunity to build some genuine tension that didn't rely on a lot of painfully obvious contrivances, ''and'' it would've made a perfect excuse to lop off that tiresome Ten Forward C-plot time-filler in favor of something actually worthwhile. Ah, WhatCouldHaveBeen...



* According to the timeline, at the beginning of the series, Riker and Geordi are both 29, but Riker is a commander, while Geordi is a Lieutenant, junior grade. While it makes sense that Riker would be promoted rapidly through the ranks given how good he's said to be, Geordi is shown to be an expert in his field, so why does he have such a low rank? And afterwards why does he get promoted two ranks in the course of three seasons?
** Geordi isn't an expert in his field until Season 2. He started off as a helm officer, a more general position, before eventually specializing in engineering in Season 2 and being promoted into the vacant Chief Engineer's role with a promotion. Once he found his niche he got promoted more quickly, but it is clear it just took him a little while to find the role that suit him best. Riker knew what role he wanted right from the start, so he moved up more quickly.

to:

* According to the timeline, at the beginning of the series, Riker and Geordi are both 29, but Riker is a commander, while Geordi is a Lieutenant, lieutenant, junior grade. While it makes sense that Riker would be promoted rapidly through the ranks given how good he's said to be, Geordi is shown to be an expert in his field, so why does he have such a low rank? And afterwards why does he get promoted two ranks in the course of three seasons?
** Geordi isn't an expert in his field until Season 2. He started off as a helm officer, a more general position, before eventually specializing in engineering in Season 2 and being promoted into the vacant Chief Engineer's role with a promotion. Once he found his niche he got promoted more quickly, but it is clear it just took him a little while to find the role that suit him best. Riker knew what role he wanted right from the start, so he moved up more quickly.
quickly.
** Weird. Memory Alpha says they graduated the same year, but they never mention being at the Academy together. And I always had the impression of Geordi being a fair bit younger. But the writers are really lousy about consistency and timelining.



** Well, now we get into a popular AlternateCharacterInterpretation concerning Data's emotions. Namely that he has them, they are just suppressed or take on a different form to ours and that the emotion chip was merely an update or a patch that allowed him to use them properly as opposed to being a full upload. It is clear that Data does not experience immediate emotional states (fear, anger, sadness etc.) like we do. But he does appear to have traits that many of us would argue go far beyond an emotionless and perfectly logical state of being: he has a need for companionship (Tasha, Geordi, Spot), a need to live up to an ideal (humanity), self preservation (the Maddox trial), curiosity etc. He has an appreciation for art, music, theater, reading. He has gender and sexual identity. He has the need to procreate. He experiences a sense of loss on some level as we saw with Tasha. And, most importantly for this discussion, he believes in the sanctity and preservation of life. Given all of these things, I don't think its out of character that when a distressed little girl asked for help that he responded. Also just a little note on the Prime Directive - [[DependingOnTheWriter its inconsistent as hell.]] A season beforehand in ''Justice'', the crew beamed down to a pre-industrial planet to have sex with the natives. You can argue EarlyInstallmentWeirdness but its still canon.

to:

** Well, now we get into a popular AlternateCharacterInterpretation concerning Data's emotions. Namely that he has them, they are just suppressed or take on a different form to ours and that the emotion chip was merely an update or a patch that allowed him to use them properly as opposed to being a full upload. It is clear that Data does not experience immediate emotional states (fear, anger, sadness etc.) like we do. But he does appear to have traits that many of us would argue go far beyond an emotionless and perfectly logical state of being: he has a need for companionship (Tasha, Geordi, Spot), a need to live up to an ideal (humanity), self preservation (the Maddox trial), curiosity etc. He has an appreciation for art, music, theater, reading. He has gender and sexual identity. He has the need to procreate. He experiences a sense of loss on some level as we saw with Tasha. And, most importantly for this discussion, he believes in the sanctity and preservation of life. Given all of these things, I don't think its out of character that when a distressed little girl asked for help that he responded. Also just a little note on the Prime Directive - [[DependingOnTheWriter its inconsistent as hell.]] A season beforehand in ''Justice'', the crew beamed down to a pre-industrial planet to have sex with the natives. You can argue EarlyInstallmentWeirdness EarlyInstallmentWeirdness, but its it's still canon.



* Where is it ever stated in canon that Wesley isn't actually an officer? In the US military, it's called a direct appointment. It's temporary--one has to attend OCS to keep the commission--but it's real.



-->'''Worf''': Simple, Geordi. Our Captain wants his junior officers to learn, learn, learn.

to:

-->'''Worf''': Simple, Geordi. Our Captain captain wants his junior officers to learn, learn, learn.



* So we've seen several times in Star Trek that Starfleet is quite strict with it's uniform code; Riker tells Ro to lose the Bajoran earring in "Ensign Ro", Tuvok tells Gerren the same in "Learning Curve", plus Chell with his necklace and Henley's headband. Captain Jellico even has Troi put on a proper uniform in "Chain of Command" instead of those god-awful leotards she had. Yet Worf... always gets to wear the massive and very noticable gold and later silver baldric. Why? I know starship uniform code is down to the captain, and Picard never seemed that bothered (see "Generations" for an example) by neither Sisko or even Jellico (or whoever Worf served for before the Enterprise, if there was one) had a problem with it. You'd think something that big and bulky would be more of a problem than an earring or a headband (and lets not forget that Nog even got to wear one of those Ferengi headdresses as both a cadet and an officer. In fact it caused confusion in "Conundrum" as Worf thought he was the captain as he was more elaborately dressed than everyone else. Either lose the baldric, or let the poor Bajoran wear their earrings!

to:

* So we've seen several times in Star Trek that Starfleet is quite strict with it's its uniform code; Riker tells Ro to lose the Bajoran earring in "Ensign Ro", Tuvok tells Gerren the same in "Learning Curve", plus Chell with his necklace and Henley's headband. Captain Jellico even has Troi put on a proper uniform in "Chain of Command" instead of those god-awful leotards she had. Yet Worf... always gets to wear the massive and very noticable gold and later silver baldric. Why? I know starship uniform code is down to the captain, and Picard never seemed that bothered (see "Generations" for an example) by neither Sisko or even Jellico (or whoever Worf served for before the Enterprise, if there was one) had a problem with it. You'd think something that big and bulky would be more of a problem than an earring or a headband (and lets let's not forget that Nog even got to wear one of those Ferengi headdresses as both a cadet and an officer. In fact it caused confusion in "Conundrum" as Worf thought he was the captain as he was more elaborately dressed than everyone else. Either lose the baldric, or let the poor Bajoran wear their earrings!



** Ro was the only time Picard or Riker made an issue of uniform variations. It was specifically Riker who ordered her to take off the earring, and my sense was that he was acting more out of dislike for her than anything.



** What makes it worse is that that episode and Pen Pals makes it blatantly clear that Starfleet has forgotten the ''purpose'' of the Prime Directive, despite still mentioning: to protect pre-interstellar cultures. Forgotten, because where TOS made clear that the Starfleet of the period quite sensibly does not regard a culture ceasing to be as 'natural' or 'healthy' development, and in fact has standing orders for captains to interfere, if as discretely as possible, should a culture be at risk of extermination, [=TNG=]'s Starfleet apparently has explicit orders ''not'' to interfere even then. Now, to the outside observer, what seems most consistent with the spirit of the rule (as noted, in both periods stated to be the protection of other cultures): the TOS approach of mandating extinction-averting interference (see "The Paradise Syndrome") or the [=TNG=] approach of prohibiting the same?
** It is perhaps worth noting one non-parallel between "Pen Pals" and "Homeward." In the former episode, it was ultimately within the Enterprise's power to completely avert this planetary catastrophe and return things to normal. This seemed to be wholly successful to the point that the planet will no longer need any intervention from Starfleet (which its pre-warp inhabitants never knew about to begin with) and will continue to develop naturally. In "Homeward," this is not the case at all; there is no indication that they can do anything to help the planet (admittedly, they never even seem to think about it). The only possible option is evacuation, which hardly seem possible to do while acting in accordance with the Prime Directive. The mere choice of selecting some people to live and others to die is playing God -- more literally than in most cases (note that Nikolai lists the Boraalan's "Rich spiritual life" as a basis for sparing them). Nikolai picks some people he likes, including a woman he impregnated (what the hell kind of anthropologist is this guy?), which is just the kind of patriarchal act by a "superior" civilization that the Prime Directive is designed to prevent. Then they dump this tiny group of people (too bad they couldn't afford more extras, because this bunch barely looks like enough people to qualify as a village, let alone the healthy gene pool needed to preserve a species) on a quickly-located alien planet where they will have no idea of whether or not a given plant is poisonous. And Nikolai, instead of being put on trial for his crimes (which include ''sabotaging the Enterprise!''), is allowed to go native and stay with them, continuing to impersonate one of their species and further disrupting the "natural development" of their society in all kinds troubling ways, up to and including the introduction of human DNA into their microscopic gene pool! Let's just say that the letter ''and'' the spirit of the Prime Directive are both blown to smithereens in this awful episode, and there's plenty of guilt to spread around.
*** The PrimeDirective in all kinds of idiotic anyway.

to:

** What makes it worse is that that episode and Pen Pals makes it blatantly clear that Starfleet has forgotten the ''purpose'' of the Prime Directive, despite still mentioning: to protect pre-interstellar cultures. Forgotten, because where TOS made clear that the Starfleet of the period quite sensibly does not regard a culture ceasing to be as 'natural' or 'healthy' development, and in fact has standing orders for captains to interfere, if as discretely discreetly as possible, should a culture be at risk of extermination, [=TNG=]'s Starfleet apparently has explicit orders ''not'' to interfere even then. Now, to the outside observer, what seems most consistent with the spirit of the rule (as noted, in both periods stated to be the protection of other cultures): the TOS approach of mandating extinction-averting interference (see "The Paradise Syndrome") or the [=TNG=] approach of prohibiting the same?
** It is perhaps worth noting one non-parallel between "Pen Pals" and "Homeward." In the former episode, it was ultimately within the Enterprise's power to completely avert this planetary catastrophe and return things to normal. This seemed to be wholly successful to the point that the planet will no longer need any intervention from Starfleet (which its pre-warp inhabitants never knew about to begin with) and will continue to develop naturally. In "Homeward," this is not the case at all; there is no indication that they can do anything to help the planet (admittedly, they never even seem to think about it). The only possible option is evacuation, which hardly seem possible to do while acting in accordance with the Prime Directive. The mere choice of selecting some people to live and others to die is playing God -- more literally than in most cases (note that Nikolai lists the Boraalan's "Rich Boraalans' "rich spiritual life" as a basis for sparing them). Nikolai picks some people he likes, including a woman he impregnated (what the hell kind of anthropologist is this guy?), which is just the kind of patriarchal act by a "superior" civilization that the Prime Directive is designed to prevent. Then they dump this tiny group of people (too bad they couldn't afford more extras, because this bunch barely looks like enough people to qualify as a village, let alone the healthy gene pool needed to preserve a species) on a quickly-located alien planet where they will have no idea of whether or not a given plant is poisonous. And Nikolai, instead of being put on trial for his crimes (which include ''sabotaging the Enterprise!''), is allowed to go native and stay with them, continuing to impersonate one of their species and further disrupting the "natural development" of their society in all kinds troubling ways, up to and including the introduction of human DNA into their microscopic gene pool! Let's just say that the letter ''and'' the spirit of the Prime Directive are both blown to smithereens in this awful episode, and there's plenty of guilt to spread around.
*** The PrimeDirective in is all kinds of idiotic anyway.



** When does Picard ever say that killing Duras is a violation of the PD? In any case, ''Worf is a Klingon''. It's an example of one Klingon killing another. No outside interference. The problem was that Starfleet officers aren't supposed to kill for revenge.



** That seemed to fall under Picard's earlier statement of how Macet was hearing everying Picard was hearing, nothing edited nothing withheld. It also worked diplomatically as a "We know more than you realize" moment so the Cardassians would be more hesitant to break the peace - what other bits of intelligence did Starfleet know?

to:

** That seemed to fall under Picard's earlier statement of how Macet was hearing everying everything Picard was hearing, nothing edited nothing withheld. It also worked diplomatically as a "We know more than you realize" moment so the Cardassians would be more hesitant to break the peace - what other bits of intelligence did Starfleet know?
21st Jul '17 7:12:57 PM ShorinBJ
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* Uh, what qualifies Ro to take command? She's a freaking pilot. How is does that translate to command authority any more than counselor does? You all seem to be looking at the red uniform as proof she's in the normal chain of command. Does that mean Wesley could have commanded the Enterprise if he'd been there instead of Ro?
16th Jul '17 10:36:42 PM KeithM
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** It's not just the cameras. There's lighting equipment, for one thing. Plus the director needs to see everything that's going on, which would be difficult if the set were closed off. Makeup people would have to be there to do touchups for the non-human characters (and even the human characters). And there's more than one camera, so they all need room as well.

to:

*** It's not just the cameras. There's lighting equipment, for one thing. Plus the director needs to see everything that's going on, which would be difficult if the set were closed off. Makeup people would have to be there to do touchups for the non-human characters (and even the human characters). And there's more than one camera, so they all need room as well. Not to mention all the cables running to everything.
*** It's also noteworthy too remember that the series started in the mid-1980s. In 1987, television cameras looked like [[http://www.gettyimages.ca/event/time-life-the-comedians-72553650?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#american-comedian-bill-cosby-sits-on-the-edge-of-a-bed-behind-a-pair-picture-id71211516 this.]] It would have been difficult to move those around the set, even with the amount of room that was shown to be in the front of the bridge. A modern television camera looks like [[http://cdn.broadcastbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/blackmagicstudiocamerahdhero-620x330.jpg this]], and that allows for enclosed sets to be used more easily, with the director monitoring remotely in real time thanks to wireless broadcast of the signal. Combine the smaller camera with a steadicam mount, and you can have the camera operator roaming the set as needed. And if even that's too much, you can set up small remote-controlled cameras where the operators don't have to be in the same room either. But in 1987, that was still years away for television production.
16th Jul '17 9:55:12 PM ApeAccount
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

*** For the record, Data graduated the academy in 2345 and then became a Lt. Commander by 2360. He still held the same rank by 2379. Troi graduated the academy in 2359. In 2370 she became a Commander. So, even if we ignore the 19 years of Data at the same rank, it took Troi less time to make Commander than it did for Data to make Lt. Commander.
16th Jul '17 9:27:09 PM ApeAccount
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** Just to add to the above, this society did once have two sexes. The general social concept now is that it's "primitive". I definitely think this is more representative to transgenderism than homosexuality. As said above, this was about individuality. In this case, she identified as female. Of course, to the audience you have a character played by a woman with a female identity and it's naturally easy to accept that she should be allowed to identify herself as a woman. Her society however believes that she should identify herself as the neither male/neither female biological sex which they see her as being (and which biologically she is). It's just like how any transgender person can look to those around them as one sex (which physically they are) but have a different gender identity. Even if they don't seek to change how they dress or to have surgery, they may just want to be able to openly acknowledge who they are.
This list shows the last 10 events of 1314. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.StarTrekTheNextGeneration