History Headscratchers / Saw

[[folder:''Saw III'']]
* Forgive my lack of understanding of the legal system- but how could Timothy get 6 months in prison, as opposed to a longer sentence, due to lack of witnesses? Either he killed Jeff's son or he didn't. The court would need witnesses to prove it was him who did it but once they'd done that (which they did) what further role could witnesses play in determining his sentence? You'd think Timothy would have gotten a reduced sentence due to lenience or sympathy from Judge Halden. Lack of witnesses just doesn't make sense.
** This would depend on how it was seen. The legal system can see it as an accidental death, which would carry a lighter sentence, reckless driving, drunk driving, hit and run, etc. Without a witness to say if the car was say, speeding or driving erratically, it can be easy to present it as an accident.
** Timothy's lawyer might also have argued that Jeff's son ran out into the road very suddenly. If no witness was available to dispute such a claim, it would've been easier to argue that, drunk or not, Timothy ''couldn't'' have seen the boy until it was too late.
* Jigsaw told Amanda that she killed 4 victims. They seems to be Adam, Eric, Kerry, and Troy, but in ''Saw IV'' it is revealed that Eric was just captured by Amanda, not killed. So who was the 4th victim? Was it Lawrence? Could it be possible that after the end of the first movie Amanda found Lawrence in the passage outside the room and killed him and this is exactly what Jigsaw was speaking off? Or is someone else is the 4th victim? I don't understand.
** Her 'dead' cellmate.
*** That doesn't make sense because she had to kill him for the game, and she didn't kill him out of mercy (Adam) or as part of the game (Kerry and Troy), she killed him because she had to or she would've died. There was also an unused part of the story where Amanda really did kill Eric but the director took it out. So maybe, that's what Jigsaw meant. I don't know
*** I just rewatched ''III'', and I don't recall her ever giving a number of victims. She just says "That's right, I'm a murderer" when confronted with what happened to Eric Matthews. She never explicitly says she killed him, though it is heavily implied. That's the Unrated version. The director's cut (which I havn't seen) may have different dialog on one or more of these points.
*** Jigsaw said that because that's what Leigh and James wrote on the script. ''Saw III'' was supposed to be the end, Eric was supposed to die. Infact, Donnie apparently only came back on the condition that his character be ended and was pissed off when he saw that it was't. There was originally a scene showing Amanda returning to Eric and stabbing him in the throat, as someone mentioned above. However, they were made to take it out as one of the edits they made to make ''Saw IV'' possible (others include the clip of Jigsaw pouring wax on the tape) so instead they just showed Amanda angrily walk back to Eric after he starts mocking her.
** Maybe she didn't know Eric was alive. Amanda and Hoffman both worked for Jigsaw, but not always together; he was the one who set up Eric's final trap after Amanda "left him for dead". And Jigsaw let her think she'd killed him because the intent is what matters.
*** The actual issue is related to a real-world one, not a plot hole. The original script for Saw III has Amanda outright killing Eric, and apparently the scene was even fully filmed. At the last minute, Lionsgate excs made them cut the scene short on the hopes they could convince Donnie Wahlberg to return for Saw IV. However, because of how last minute the change was, it still says four people instead of three.
** I recall Jigsaw saying this right after Amanda shot Lynn. I took this as Jigsaw foreseeing the chain reaction about to ensue and saying that Amanda's decision to shoot Lynn effectively killed 4 people: Amanda and Jigsaw (via Jeff), Lynn (via shotgun collar), and Jeff (via Agent Strahm).
* Danica has never made any sense to me. She is supposedly a witness of the drunk driving accident. She never testified at trial, and never told anyone of authority what she saw. So... how could Jigsaw possibly know that she witnessed the accident?
** Jeff knew she saw something and may have tried to contact her. Jigsaw found out.
** Her car might've been glimpsed by Jeff at the scene of the accident, with enough of a description and/or partial plate number to identify it as hers. The police traced the lead as they were investigating the incident, but Danica refused to admit she'd seen anything because she didn't want the hassle of testifying. Hoffman told Jigsaw, either because he was the one who looked into the boy's death (and caught on that she was lying), or because he learned about it from police gossip.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:''Saw II'']]
* I was just wondering, at the end of ''Saw II'', what happened to Daniel after he's saved?
** Hopefully, therapy.
* Where did Jigsaw get the crapton of (presumably) used syringes for the needle trap in 2 and to stuff the toilets with in the video game? I thought maybe the hospital where he was diagnosed with brain cancer, but then I realized that most hospitals lock up the used sharps boxes to prevent cross-contamination.
** His wife is helping drug addicts, Amanda ''was/is'' a drug addict, Hoffman is a cop. It's not much of stretch to think that one of those three would have been able to get used syringes.
** You can buy syringes by the box of a hundred. Faked prescriptions or, even easier, a faked business that happens to include a pharmacy and buy 'em by the case. Used syringes don't look much different from new ones -- all you'd need to do is take the protective caps off.
** Also, some cities actually have needle and syringe programs where clean ones are provided for free, to lessen the spread of blood-borne diseases and such.
* In ''Saw II'', how did John not only figure out that Eric Matthews had planted evidence to on some of the people he arrested, but ''which'' of his arrestees he'd done it to?
** ''Saw IV'' and ''Saw V'' reveal that John has access to police department records and goings-on via Mark Hoffman, his apprentice and successor. Hoffman is shown setting up the main trap for ''Saw II'', so it's conceivable that Hoffman was the one providing John with the investigative records from Eric's cases.
* In ''Saw II'', John set a non-lethal trap for one of the police officers that raided his base. What was the ''point'' of that? Was is just John being an asshole? Or was there some sort of lesson it was supposed to teach the entirely randomly selected police officer who was first up the stairs?
** Not every trap Jigsaw designs is a game. The traps to defend his base of operations were just that: defenses.
* John and Amanda's scheme in ''Saw II'' could've easily fallen apart. It relies on playing mind games with Eric Matthews to see if he'll crack before finding out his son is alright. However, while Daniel has been administered the antidote and isn't at risk for succumbing to the nerve gas in the house, he could've died in other ways. He came close to being murdered by Xavier and any of the other people in the house could've killed him out of vengeance upon discovering his connection to Eric. He also could've volunteered himself or been forced into a trap, which he then could've failed as well.
** Furthermore, what would happen if others managed to successfully retrieve and administer themselves the antidote, only to realize Amanda and Daniel didn't need it? Wouldn't they realize at least one of them was in on it and be furious? Would Amanda give herself and Daniel a needle full of the antidote just to save face? Is that a good idea if they're not actually being poisoned?
** On another level, if the people trapped in the house were supposed be able to use those numbers on the backs of their necks as a lock combination, why was one of the traps designed to burn its victim to a crisp? If Obi hadn't crawled far enough to stick his head through the hatch of the furnace before expiring, his number-marking would have been char-broiled into illegibility before anyone noticed it on his neck.
*** Well, there's the argument that in Jigsaw's mind, Obi wasn't supposed to be burned to a crisp and that he was supposed to survive the trap. However, it doesn't account for the fact that Obi failing could hypothetically condemn the entire group, so either Jigsaw really counted on him living or didn't think about the consequences of him failing. Or maybe he's just so omniscient that he knew Obi would die in the trap with his neck unscathed.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Other media]]
[[AC:Short film]]

* Why is the original short film called ''Saw'' also? It doesn't have any saws in it, just the Reverse Bear Trap scenario. Is it a reference to the little peephole that opens in the wall during the final shot, implying that the culprit ''saw'' exactly what David did? Or were the creators already hoping to use the Bathroom Trap idea in a full-length feature when they filmed and titled the short?
** The short film was based on a scene from the script they already had, to try and convince studios to pick it up. So they most likely just gave it the name they had already planned.

[[folder:''Saw [=3D=]'']]
* WhatAnIdiot is taken to new and ridiculous levels in ''Saw 3D''. Specifically, Bobby's final trap with the hooks. There are at least 3 answers better than "shove the hooks into yourself". For the record, these are (1) step into them like they are stirrups, (2) put them under your armpits (3) hook them onto your clothing. The "freak out" excuse doesn't really work here, since he takes a good 15 seconds of his allotted time to talk to his wife, consider what he is about to do, and then do it. Of course, Bobby is shown to be an idiot.
** The point with Bobby's final test is that Bobby is the one who ''absolutely ruins it''. Jigsaw hints before he begins that Bobby's trap isn't physically possible and the options above are obviously what any sane person listening to the tape would probably go for, considering that Bobby only made up what would happen in the hook trap before. It's the last one - Bobby's martyring himself to his wife and to everyone else for being such a massive fake, too, but the grand gesture doesn't really work out for him.
** Bobby surely knows enough about the Jigsaw killings from preparing his deception to be aware that ''somebody'' - maybe John, maybe an apprentice, maybe a coerced stooge whose own "game" demands they do so - is generally monitoring the progress of the ones being tested. If he'd started to do something that smacked too clearly of cheating, he may have feared they'd accelerate the timer in retaliatoin, same as when his publicist screamed.
* From ''Saw 3D''... why did the automated gun kill more than one person? As soon as it started shooting, I would think that the natural reaction of any human being, especially a trained cop, would be to hit the deck. Since it can't shoot down, being automated and all, that would have saved everyone but the first guy.
* With the publicist in the fishing hook trap, we're told that if the decibel meter registers too high it will automatically trigger the trap before the time limit is up. Ignoring her screaming before the tape is played and the trap is triggered she ''continues'' to scream nearly constantly often red-lining the meter yet this never triggers the trap and time simply runs out a few seconds short of safety.
** The screaming only speeds up the timer. It doesn't end the trap outright.
* While Bobby doesn't have a great deal of time he still has sixty minutes to save his wife and based on the videos he's shown failure at a trap results in her situation worsening (or simply coming off as an average night at a BDSM club). While he doesn't have any clue how many potential victims he'll need to save (only four including his wife and excluding his two traps) he nevertheless starts each tape as soon as he notices it thus starting the trap. He never pauses to try and figure it out or find an alternate solution in advance. Considering that each trap only has a time limit of one minute and he probably doesn't spend that long wandering around he would have had at least fifteen minutes each. Assuming he was trying to rush he would have had a substantial bonus upon reaching his wife and could have afforded to spend more time trying to work it out.
** Considering it became clear by the second trap that A) the other victims were all his co-conspirators, and B) the timers for each trap wouldn't allow him more than a few minutes each, Bobby ''really'' wasn't justified in rushing so much. There were only a handful of people who were in on his deception, after all.
* With the spikes-and-fishhook trap from ''3D'', wouldn't the sensible move for Bobby to make be to simply ''cold-cock'' his publicist, so she'd neither have to suffer the hook being withdrawn nor make noise that would set the trap off early?
* Okay, ''Saw 3D''. I was thrilled to see Lawrence return... but why the hell was he working with Jigsaw? Sure, it explains some details of past traps, but it doesn't fit his character from the first film at all. And how did he track down Hoffman, and why did he do it ''after'' Jill was dead? And who were the other pig-mask guys?
** Lawrence was the only person who truly understood what John was trying to do. John told him all about Hoffman, and his instructions were to only punish him if Jill died. Not before, as he still had hope that Hoffman would change.
*** That doesn't quite explain why a man with a new-found appreciation for his family's well-being would associate with a serial killer. Likely ending up with a life sentence and risking the wrath of a pair of AxCrazy associates doesn't exactly help his family.
** It's not "explained" on screen so we just have to assume, but there's plenty of scenarios that would make sense to imagine how he got there. WordOfGod tried to fill in some of this but I think we can lay the brutal truth that this probably would have been fleshed out more had they have gotten to do it as two movies instead of one.
** Honestly, I think, just like Amanda, it was a cocktail of trauma-induced vulnerability and Stockholm Syndrome. God knows how long John kept him there, and since we know that neither Amanda or Hoffman knew about his apprenticeship, I'll bet you anything that for whatever time it takes to mend a man who lost a foot (assuredly a long time), John was the only person Lawrence saw or spoke to. Amanda was loyal to a fault to John, and he didn't literally nurse her back to health, so just imagine how Lawrence must feel.
* As for the other plotline of ''3D''... Why did everyone believe Dagen when he had no evidence of being in a trap? And who designed the traps in this movie, Jigsaw or Hoffman? The last film suggested that William and friends were the last advance victims Jigsaw had prepared, but that's definitely his voice on the tapes, and the grudge against Dagen is his.
** We know that Hoffman can use voice-editing techniques on tape to make himself sound like John. And who's to say that John didn't have Bobby planned out enough to make the tapes, and schedule all the other stuff for a later date?
** The way it's shown it would imply William was the last planned chronologically but that doesn't mean John couldn't have planned Bobby earlier and just put priorities later. After all with the ending, Lawrence was at the Survivors meetings even before Bobby got there, so Bobby's been under watch by an apprentice for a while even if not yet truly abducted. And according to WordOfGod it would actually be three apprentices keeping an eye on him, including Brad and Ryan, even if they are just basically helping out Lawrence. Hoffman could have been looking to use up what John had left to help with his own plans to foil the police.
** Bobby Dagen does national tours to promote his book and self-help [=DVDs=]. Probably his trap was designed not that long after Jigsaw went to his book signing, but had to be held in reserve until the next time he was back in the city where all these movies happen.
* Joyce's death in ''Saw 3D'' just bugs me. Throughout all seven movies, I can think of a justification why Jigsaw (using his twisted logic, that is, if there's ''anything at all'' wrong with you or even just something he has a chip on his shoulder about) put everyone else in a trap (excluding Lawrence's wife and daughter, but they ultimately survived, and I don't think they were actually supposed to be in any danger; see Fridge page for my theory on that), but not her. We don't learn much about her, but from what we see, she's pretty much a perfect wife and genuinely loved Bobby and was the only reason the guy is actually sympathetic at all. Sure, she was a bit annoying as a character, but if there's anyone in entire ''Saw'' who seemed like they would pass Jigsaw's morality standards, it was her. And then she is fried alive in what is possibly the most NightmareFuel sequence of the series. I can't understand that. Joyce never did anything wrong, anything at all. The only explanation I can think of is that Bobby's expected failure in the last trap was supposed to kill him, not her; but Hoffman changed this detail, just because he's that much AxCrazy.
** By the time ''Saw 3D'' comes around, Jigsaw had been dead for a while. Hoffman doesn't quite have the same "vision" as John.
*** Yeah, Hoffman's the main fault. Also, Joyce is perceived as Bobby's prize for all the lying and glory he's got out of his book, so the best thing to do when he fails?
** I don't think we ever figure out what was up with the guy in Amanda's trap from the first movie, either. Or the other dude in the chair with the neck-drills. Jigsaw didn't have a habit of hurting "innocent" people, but Joyce wasn't the first time.
*** I checked the Saw wiki. Apparently the man in Amanda's trap was her drug dealer at least according to the original script. The guy in the neck-drill trap suffered from suicidal tendencies which meant that from Jigsaw's POV he didn't appreciate his life.
** John puts Lawrence's wife and child in a position to be killed by an unstable Zepp so an innocent person being part of a game isn't surprising.
** We never learn if the judge from ''III'' did anything the least bit reprehensible, aside from grant a modest sentence to a drunk driver whose offense ''couldn't'' be harshly charged due to lack of witnesses. And he '''did''' die, albeit from the wrong trap.
* Okay seriously, What idiot leaves only five police officers and a coroner guarding a ''police precinct''? Hoffman led most of the officers away from the building, but there is no excuse for leaving that few people inside a ''POLICE PRECINCT''.
** Well they were understaff, what with all the detectives dying every movie. I mean, at some point, you've gotta run out of cops.
** I wouldn't be surprised if some of the less-dedicated members of the force had started quitting or seeking jobs in other police departments by that point. Whichever city all this Jigsaw shit is happening, it's ''not'' the best place to be wearing a badge, at least not if you want to live to retirement age.
* One major one that bugged me and has me denounce all films after three. Has Lawrence just gone off and forgot about his family at the end? Seriously, the first one he was majorly caring about them, what happened after. Yet at the end of ''3D'' he's been shown to have turned to the quote unquote dark side. Did the writers forget about one of the major plot points in the first film about his family or something?
*** He wanted his family ''safe''. Considering how merciless this series is towards its characters and their loved ones, it's possible Lawrence agreed to help Jigsaw on the sole condition that his wife and daughter be allowed to leave the city and never get involved in these "games" -- not Jigsaw's, not Hoffman's, not Amanda's, not anyone's -- again.
** While I didn't "denounce" any of the films I thought that one of (if not the biggest) flaw of ''Saw 3D'' was spending so little time with Lawrence. It wouldn't have hurt them to spend a few minutes showing how Lawrence's experience and new outlook on life affected his relationship with his family. However, him accepting Jigsaw's philosophy doesn't mean he stopped caring about them.
** You're talking as if Lawrence's own desires are the only ones that matter. After what she and her daughter went through - went through, because ''his own indifference to patients'' caught the ire of Jigsaw - and given how many more times Jigsaw-victims' loved ones have been targeted, it's entirely possible that Allison refused to stay anywhere near her husband, let alone keep her Diana in the same city where they'd been kidnapped and threatened. If Lawrence pressured them to stay with him, that might only have convinced her that he's become unstable himself from his experiences, giving her even more cause to leave him. Realizing they'll never feel safe around him until the Jigsaw Killings are indisputably '''over''', and knowing John Kramer is dying of cancer, Lawrence agrees to assist John in bringing Amanda and Hoffman to heel: once John dies and his other apprentices are either retired (if they pass their tests) or taken down, the doctor can honestly assure his estranged wife that it's safe to live with him again.
** WordOfGod says that Lawrence and his wife divorced after he reunited with them, due to their previous marital problems and his instability from the trauma in the bathroom and brainwashing from John's nursing him back to health. So he did get back to them and they're still probably in his life, because we saw how much he cared about them in film one. Brainwashed or no, Lawrence isn't the kind of guy to up and leave his family.
* Where does Hoffman find the time to put people in his traps in ''3D''? Isn't he on the run?
** At least for the Public Trap, the explanation is that it's a flashback, and also that it was Lawrence's first trap he had a hand in (not just performing surgery for other traps) so it was probably his and John's trap.
* Ok, I know that they were scared and disorientated, but does anyone else think there was a way to escape the opening trap in ''Saw 3D'' (with Brad, Ryan and Dina) without anyone dying? I get the point of the guys "breaking up" with Dina, but seriously. They were tied to the machine only by their hands. If one of the guys had dropped to their knees to avoid the buzzsaw blade, the other could have pushed the device far enough to one side that the middle blade wouldn't hit Dana.
** Most of the traps in the series could've easily been gotten out of by their victims if they only used their heads instead of freaking out, especially the ones without any real time limit and this is no exception.
** I think Brad and Ryan were both too tall to kneel down and get out of the way of the blades, which were high enough to hit each one in the lower-middle chest when the other pushed. They can really only get down as far as the level of their shackled hands anyway, which would probably put their faces at spinning-death-level.
** Even then, what if Dina had been released and fallen onto one of the other blades, she'd have been gutted anyway.
** In theory it makes sense that they only way Dina wouldn't get gutted was to push it too far on one side. But the way it's shown on film does make it seem possible there's enough space to take care of that. I would expect a real life equivalent wouldn't be escapable for all three without some outside interference or factor.
** And also, at this moment:https://youtu.be/IvPewzBKqYU?t=124 , there's a guy in the background cheering with his hands up, why is he doing that?
[[/folder]]

[[folder:''Saw VI'']]
* So...''Saw VI's'' scale trap that opens the film. Never mind the scenario's lack of realism (few people have the nerve to amputate their limbs, let alone do it in under a minute to toss their body parts into a scale, and ''not'' kill them from blood loss/shock). Why didn't either of them consider throwing the tools down the chute or their shoes instead of their mutilated limbs/stripped fat? The scale wouldn't have known the difference.
* Why was Hoffman "tested" at the end of ''VI''?
** Because Jigsaw caught on the fact that Hoffman was a sadist (''Do you like how brutality feels, Mark?'') and was keen on just plain murdering as Amanda (''Let's be honest. I want him to suffer just as much as you do.'') and gave orders to put him in a trap to make him realize how the victims feel. Also, it was supposed to be an escape route for Jill, in the case Hoffman died.
** Even so, if Jigsaw was so great at predicting human behavior, he should've known that Jill might want Hoffman dead and use it as a simple deathtrap -- and that if Hoffman survived, he'd be out for blood. It seems a careless thing to do if he was so worried about Jill's safety.
*** In fact, it was built in such a way so he ''would'' die... but I think Jigsaw didn't predict the window with the bars, which turned out to be ''the'' thing that helped Hoffman survive.
* Hoffman's letter to Amanda is something that has always bugged me about ''VI''. I think the writers simply forgot that John told her to get the letter in ''III'' and thought she found it on her own, and didn't bother to go back and re-watch the scene while reusing some of the footage for ''VI''. Or they hoped the ViewersAreMorons.
** So, to clarify, Hoffman tells Amanda to kill Lynn, or else he will tell John what he knows. John already knows what Hoffman has to tell him, and Amanda knows that John already knows since he pointed her to the blackmail letter in the first place. So, she calls Hoffman on his bluff by... [[WhatAnIdiot killing Lynn]]... [[FlatWhat what]]? I think Amanda's drug use really screwed up her short term memory, since that's the only way this makes any sense.
** Or, you know, John ''had'' written a letter for Amanda, but Hoffman switched it with his own.
*** Yeah, according to the ''Saw VI'' commentary, that is the official explanation. It would have been nice to see some indication of that in the movie itself though. It would have only taken up 10 seconds or less of screen time to show Hoffman pull a letter out of the desk and replace it with his own instead of just showing him putting his letter in the desk.
* How, exactly, did the key get embedded in William's abdomen? Lawrence being in on it all along helps clear up the plot hole of how an engineer, John, could possibly know how to do the medical stuff shown throughout the series. However, by the time that William is captured, John is dead, and so Lawrence isn't helping anymore. So... who cut open William, buried a key in him, sewed him back up, and still had William alive/mobile enough to carry through with his game?
** Not even just mobile enough to carry on, apparently unaware of the key implant even taking place. Maybe it was the same person who did the teeth thing in ''Saw 3D'', and apparently did the job so well that Bobby didn't even realize his teeth has been extracted and replaced. Wish my dentist was that skilled with the pain avoidance...
** Possibly the key's implant took place some weeks before, during an otherwise-unrelated operation? If William had needed his gallbladder removed or something, an accomplice at the hospital could've possibly slipped the key into a gauze-pack during the procedure. Maybe even Zepp could've arranged it, if Jigsaw put William on his "to-do" list long enough ago.
** Given the fact that it was bleeding when he woke up, and that he reacted with surprise when he saw the scar, I don't think that it was implanted until then. It's possible that Hoffman had cut into William while he was unconscious, and stitched him back up once the key was put into him.
** Hoffman can improvise some surgery, as we saw when he sewed his cheek back up, also who's say there is not more accomplices in on it? He could've just hired a shady back alley doctor for the drugs and surgeries.
** Actually, William notices practically the ''moment'' he gets out of the trap, and he's clearly in a lot of pain from it throughout the movie (he's almost always limping or hunched over), the clamp pressing on his abdomen the whole time probably made it worse.
** It's actually pretty sneaky, both in-Verse and on a meta level, how William's abdominal incision is masked by the nature of the ''first'' trap in his sequence: although the blood is immediately visible, both William and the audience are allowed to presume that the edge of the clamp on his left side just scratched him or something.
* The "Pound Of Flesh" trap. How did the skinny woman win?? A 300 lb guys slices off the chunks of his belly, giving himself a huge advantage. She chops off her arm (which had very little body fat on it), drops it in the chute, ''and it doesn't even go all the way through!'' Most of it is still inside the chute, resting against the wall. Even if it did somehow outweigh three large chunks of fat, most of it's weight was still being supported, and wouldn't have registered on the scale!!
** My guess? The hand alone might have been enough with the bones' combined density. With the additional forearm, that only adds up to the total weight.
*** The above troper is correct. Fat is more voluminous than muscle. It takes approximately twice the volume of fat to match the equivalent weight of muscle. In other words, if you put a pound of fat and a pound of muscle side-by-side, the muscle will take up half as much space as the fat does; it will look as though there is more fat despite the fact that they weight the exact same amount. So while all those chunks of fat look like they'd be able to tip the scales in his favor, that's not necessarily the case. What is more irritating about the trap is that Simone specifically told Eddie not to lean forward so as not to activate it, and that is exactly what he immediately proceeds to do.
*** Fat ''floats'', which is a good indicator of how lightweight it is.
** Also, the girl in the "Pound of Flesh" trap was the winner of ''Series/ScreamQueens2008'', so it was pretty obvious she was going to survive.
*** The ''Series/ScreamQueens2008'' winner that was in ''Saw 3D'' didn't survive, and on top of that had less than a minute of screen time.
*** Her character was going to survive, but it was changed while filming.
** I heard the director's cut (hardy har har) of the film was different but Simone severed her wrist instead of her arm (at the elbow)? That's crazy man!
* The Steam Maze in ''Saw VI'': could Debbie have used the portable saw to cut the leather (?) straps holding the device to her and thus survive without having to use the key?
** She could've done that, however, doing that would probably be risky for her and attacking Will with the saw, most likely seemed like a less risky alternative.
*** For a much less risky alternative, [[IdiotBall she could have just turned or tilted her head out of the way]].
* While the ending of ''Saw VI'' is one of my top two favorites in the series, part of it bugs me because I feel like William could have easily avoided his death. It's hard to tell from the camera angle but it looked as though the swinging wall of syringes wasn't as long as the room, so in theory if he'd moved back and stood against Pamela's cage he might have been all right (and wouldn't his instinct have been to move AWAY from the people debating on whether or not they're going to kill him?). Also, there is a very definite gap between the bottom of the wall and the floor - if he'd just dropped he would have been fine. Granted, this is assuming he even noticed the syringes in the first place - which, admittedly, isn't a guarantee - but still...
** I rewatched ''Saw VI'' and when William stands on Pamela's side of the cage, you can hear a pressure plate when he steps on it. Once he goes to beg on the other side, you can hear the same noise as it shows him stepping on the other pressure plate. Maybe if he was with Pamela, the plate he was standing on might've kept him protected or perhaps even cause the switch to activate a separate way to kill Harold's family had they chosen to kill William.
*** As a light switches from red to green on the "Life or Death" lever when he steps onto the other pressure plate, it's likely it wouldn't have activated if William wasn't in front of it, or even ''until'' he stepped in front of it, probably to prevent Harold's family being sprayed with acid if it didn't hit him.
** The answer is that the trap was a BatmanGambit by Hoffman in which he predicted exactly what William would do when placed in that situation. William definitely could have avoided the needles if he stood back or lay on the ground but, much like with Adam's bathtub trap, his human nature (moving close to the people he's pleading with) proved to be his undoing.
** Dropping prone would've made him look like a weaselly coward afraid to face his accusers, which wouldn't have helped persuade Harold's family to spare him.
* In ''Saw VI'', what would've happened if "Live" was picked instead of "Die" at the end?
** Presumably, their cages would have opened and they would have been able to escape.
* In ''Saw VI'', William gets to the end of his tests, only to find that he has no control whatsoever as to whether he lives or dies. So, what exactly was the point of him going through those tests? He was supposed to learn how his policy was flawed and hopefully be better (at least from Jigsaw's insane perspective), and yet, if Tara and the kid aren't feeling particularly merciful, he's not going to live to see it? What was the point?
** The point is that John is a dick.
** Presumably if William had shown enough remorse and struggled hard enough to try to save his co-workers, he ''might'' have earned some sympathy from the Abbotts. And in fact he '''did''' earn ''some'' ... but only enough to earn mercy from Tara, not from Brent.
** John's tapes ''never'' promised William that he would ''survive'' his trial, only that he'd see his family again and not have his limbs blown to pieces. If anything, William may have been playing for '''Pamela's''' life, not his own. And leaving William no power to control his fate may have been Jigsaw's way of confronting him with what he'd told the man face-to-face that his "formula" didn't account for: that who ''should'' live is an entirely separate issue from who ''will'' live.
* In ''Saw VI'' how did they get the kidnapping of William Easton to work so perfectly? They: 1) broke into the insurance building without raising any sort of alarm, 2) broke into the power supply room so as to shut off power to an entire floor of the building, 3) gotten such precise timing of that night guard's route that they could time the power outage to engineer a confrontation between William and the guard, 4) ''knew'' that William would come out on top of the confrontation, and 5) managed to sneak past any other guards both on the way up and the way down. And this was pulled off with just the resources of Hoffman and [[spoiler:Gordon]]?
** The guard was probably never intended to confront William, as having either (or both!) of them shoot the other before William has the chance to hear John's recorded message doesn't serve ''anyone's'' agenda. More likely, the fact that Hoffman was having to pull it all off alone made him cut things too close, and the guard headed into William's office before Hoffman could distract him, disable him, or perhaps abduct ''him'' too (see below).
* If everybody in William's office was designated as a participant in his test, presumably on the grounds that they were complicit in his insurance company's cruel practices, then why was the ''security guard'' not intended to play a part in things? Yes, the man was mistakenly shot by William and therefore in no shape to participate when the time came, but neither John nor Hoffman could have anticipated that outcome. You'd think that if even the freaking ''janitor'' was deemed culpable enough to deserve to be cannon fodder in William's game, then the guy whose job it would be to toss enraged clients or their grieving relatives out of the building would be, too! Yet there's no sign of a trap for the ''guard'' having been removed or cut out of the sequence because William shot the guy.
[[/folder]]

* I can't believe no one asked this question yet but, WhereDoesHeGetAllThoseWonderfulToys? Seriously, those death traps didn't build themselves out of nothing. Jigsaw was merely a civil engineer in his past life so he wasn't exactly [[Franchise/{{Batman}} Bruce Wayne]] in terms of wealth.

** In ''Saw IV'', John is shown to kidnap his first victim Cecil (the druggie that caused Jill to miscarry) at a Chinese Year of the Pig Festival. He does so by stealing 2 plastic pig masks from one of the stands: One to conceal his identity, and the other one with a rag of chloroform inside to use on Cecil. I'm going to assume he just kinda decided to stick with the motif while also making it a morbid tribute to his unborn son Gideon, who would have been born in the Year of the Pig. Also, as he explains in Jigsaw, pigs are remarkably compassionate animals, showing distress whenever they see another animal, including humans, in pain. I guess he wished we could be more like them.

* It bugs me that people constantly refer to Hoffman, Amanda and [[spoiler: Lawrence]] with the term "apprentice". Throughout the series it was clear that the one that was being groomed to take over his work was Amanda; the other two were basically just tools he brought in (and in the former, brainwashed and possibly blackmailed) to help with the dirty work. Those two are more correctly "accomplices" than what everyone chooses to call them.
** [[spoiler: Lawrence]] maybe, but Hoffman was a true apprentice. Jigsaw's goal from the start was to convert him -- teach him "a kind of rehabilitation that'll let you sleep at night". What's more, it worked. Unlike Amanda, Hoffman made real Jigsaw-style tests for victims like Strahm and the cops in ''3D''. He actually believed in John's method (remember him asking Simone if she'd learned anything?) however skewed his view on it eventually became. He intended to continue, insisting to Jill that he now "control[led] all aspects of the game". Once there was too much evidence to hide, he scorched the earth; his plan after that was probably to skip town and start the game over in another city. His one flaw as Jigsaw was his habit of indulging in personal revenge... and [[spoiler:he was only defeated because John shared that flaw, arranging for Lawrence to avenge Jill if the need arose.]]

** Hoffman's status seems to lie somewhere between an apprentice and a forced minion, like Zep or Art. He doesn't have poison in his blood or a spine-cutter on his back, but he's definitely ''coerced'' into working for John rather than recruited. Possibly John had originally had it in mind to arrange for a whole cadre of law enforcement "moles" - Hoffman and Rigg (if his test/recruitment in ''IV'' had worked out) as cops, and [[spoiler: Logan]] in the forensics department - who would back up Amanda [[spoiler: and Lawrence]] in setting up and running games, then concealing evidence and/or setting up others to take the blame.

* Given most of the ''Saw'' devices would require hours or days to assemble and then have to tested before being deployed,when would a man dying of cancer find the time to gather so many victims and "test" them? Even with assistance?

** ''Saw IV'' and ''Saw V'' reveal that [[spoiler:John has access to police department records and goings-on via Mark Hoffman, his apprentice and successor. Hoffman is shown setting up the main trap for ''Saw II,'' so it's conceivable that Hoffman was the one providing John with the investigative records from Eric's cases.]]

*** The "five become one" game was in a completely different location from the house. Nobody besides Hoffman and [[spoiler: Lawrence]] know where it is.
*** Hmm... in that case I guess it ''is'' possible that the house was never found, but only if [[spoiler:Lawrence]] converted ''really'' fast so he wouldn't tell anyone. And Jigsaw has to have covered his tracks even better than we already knew; for example, didn't Eric Matthews drive his squad car to the house? Even if they moved or destroyed it, those cars are surely tracked from the station by GPS or something. (Also, I don't remember off the top of my head if any victims or traps from that house were mentioned by the police later, but the whole thing falls apart if so.)
*** [[spoiler:Lawrence did convert pretty quickly, as shown in ''VII''. Since John nursed him back to health instead of taking him to a hospital, he had little contact with the outside world until he was able to actually move on his own again. By that point, he was firmly in John's corner.]]

* If the house at the end of ''Saw V'' is the nerve gas house from ''Saw II'' and Erickson has alerted the authorities of its location, then why has the bathroom not been discovered and cleaned up by the time of ''Saw VII''?
** The 5-Become-1 test takes place at a totally different location. The house shown in Saw 2, 5, & 7 is never discovered by the authorities.

* How, exactly, did the key get embedded in William's abdomen? [[spoiler: Lawrence]] being in on it all along helps clear up the plot hole of how an engineer, John, could possibly know how to do the medical stuff shown throughout the series. However, by the time that William is captured, John is dead, and so [[spoiler: Lawrence]] isn't helping anymore. So... who cut open William, buried a key in him, sewed him back up, and still had William alive/mobile enough to carry through with his game?

* As for the other plotline of ''3D''... [[spoiler:Why did everyone believe Dagen when he had no evidence of being in a trap? And who designed the traps in this movie, Jigsaw or Hoffman? The last film suggested that William and friends were the last advance victims Jigsaw had prepared, but that's definitely his voice on the tapes, and the grudge against Dagen is his.]]

** The way it's shown it would imply William was the last planned chronologically but that doesn't mean John couldn't have planned Bobby earlier and just put priorities later. After all with the ending, Lawrence was at the Survivors meetings even before Bobby got there, so Bobby's been under watch by an apprentice for a while even if not yet truly abducted. And according to WordOfGod it would actually be three apprentices keeping an eye on him, including Brad and Ryan, even if they are just basically helping out Lawrence. Hoffman could have been looking to use up what John had left to help with his own foil the police plans.

* [[spoiler:Joyce]]'s death in ''Saw 3D'' just bugs me. Throughout all seven movies, I can think of a justification why Jigsaw (using his twisted logic, that is, if there's ''anything at all'' wrong with you or even just something he has a chip on his shoulder about) put everyone else in a trap (excluding Lawrence's wife and daughter, but they ultimately survived, and I don't think they were actually supposed to be in any danger; see Fridge page for my theory on that), but not her. We don't learn much about her, but from what we see, she's pretty much a perfect wife and genuinely loved Bobby and was the only reason the guy is actually sympathetic at all. Sure, she was a bit annoying as a character, but if there's anyone in entire ''Saw'' who seemed like they would pass Jigsaw's morality standards, it was her. And then she is fried alive in what is possibly the most NightmareFuel sequence of the series. I can't understand that. Joyce never did anything wrong, anything at all. The only explanation I can think of is that Bobby's expected failure in the last trap was supposed to kill him, not her; but Hoffman changed this detail, just because he's that much AxCrazy.

* Okay seriously, [[spoiler: What idiot leaves only five police officers and a coroner guarding a ''police precinct''? Hoffman led most of the officers away from the building, but there is no excuse for leaving that few people inside a ''POLICE PRECINCT'']].

** People being killed quickly= okay-ish. People suffering for a minute or 2 before death= OMYGODTHISISDEMONICANDEVILANDISTHEENDOFCINEMA!!!!!!!

* Why is the original short film called ''Saw'' also? It doesn't have any saws in it, just the Reverse Bear Trap scenario. Is it a reference to [[spoiler: the little peephole that opens in the wall during the final shot, implying that the culprit ''saw'' exactly what David did]]? Or were the creators already hoping to use the Bathroom Trap idea in a full-length feature when they filmed and titled the short?

[[folder:''Saw 3D'']]

* Okay, ''Saw 3D''. I was thrilled to see [[spoiler: Lawrence return]]... but why the hell [[spoiler:was he working with Jigsaw? Sure, it explains some details of past traps, but it doesn't fit his character from the first film at all. And how did he track down Hoffman, and why did he do it ''after'' Jill was dead? And who were the other pig-mask guys?]]
** [[spoiler: Lawrence was the only person who truly understood what John was trying to do. John told him all about Hoffman, and his instructions were to only punish him if Jill died. Not before, as he still had hope that Hoffman would change. ]]
*** That doesn't quite explain why [[spoiler: a man with a new-found appreciation for his family's well-being would associate with a serial killer. Likely ending up with a life sentence and risking the wrath of a pair of AxCrazy associates doesn't exactly help his family.]]

[[folder''Saw 3D'']]

!!!''Film/{{Saw}}'' Headscratchers



!!!''Film/SawII'' Headscratchers

!!! ''Film/SawIII'' Headscratchers

* Danica, in the third movie, has never made any sense to me. She is supposedly a witness of the drunk driving accident. She never testified at trial, and never told anyone of authority what she saw. So... how could Jigsaw possibly know that she witnessed the accident?

!!! ''Film/SawIV'' Headscratchers

!!! ''Film/SawV'' Headscratchers

* Why is the razor wire trap still standing when Strahm visits the location in ''Saw V''? The body is removed, and as best as I can tell the blood has been cleaned off, but the trap itself is still there. Isn't "removing the razor wire" part of "cleaning the crime scene" in the ''Saw'' universe?

!!! ''Film/SawVI'' Headscratchers

!!! ''Film/Saw3D'' (aka ''Saw: The Final Chapter'') Headscratchers

* [[spoiler:Joyce]]'s death in ''Saw 3D'' just bugs me. Throughout all seven movies, I can think of a justification why Jigsaw (using his twisted logic, that is, if there's ''anything at all'' wrong with you or even just something he has a chip on his shoulder about) put everyone else in a trap (excluding Lawrence's wife and daughter, but they ultimately survived, and I don't think they were actually supposed to be in any danger; see Fridge page for my theory on that), but not her. We don't learn much about her, but from what we see, she's pretty much a perfect wife and genuinely loved Bobby and was the only reason the guy is actually sympathetic at all. Sure, she was a bit annoying as a character, but if there's anyone in entire ''Saw'' who seemed like they would pass Jigsaw's morality standards, it was her. [[spoiler:And then she is fried alive in what is possibly the most NightmareFuel sequence of the series.]] I can't understand that. [[spoiler:Joyce]] never did anything wrong, anything at all. [[spoiler:The only explanation I can think of is that Bobby's expected failure in the last trap was supposed to kill him, not her; but Hoffman changed this detail, just because he's that much AxCrazy.]]
** By the time saw 3D comes around, Jigsaw had been dead for a while. Hoffman doesn't quite have the same "vision" as John.
*** Yeah, Hoffman's the main fault. Also, [[spoiler:Joyce]] is perceived as Bobby's prize for all the lying and glory he's got out of his book, so the best thing to do when he fails?
** I don't think we ever figure out what was up with the guy in Amanda's trap from the first movie, either. Or the other dude in the chair with the neck-drills. Jigsaw didn't have a habit of hurting 'innocent' people, but [[spoiler:Joyce]] wasn't the first time.

!!! ''Film/{{Jigsaw}}'' Headscratchers

* In ''Jigsaw'', how exactly did Logan pull off a good portion of his whole stunt? How did he manage to get inside Eleanor's studio to plant that body in her closet, how did he get the hanging body up on the bridge without anyone seeing him (even if he did it in the dead of night, likely someone would notice a man hanging a dead human off a bridge) how and when did he dig up John's corpse and replace it with Edgar's, again, with nobody seeing them? Did he grave-dig and replace a body all by himself? It took a small crane to lift the casket out of the ground, how did he manage that? Did he find help in people like Brad and Ryan? If so, how? If he attended the support group, isn't that something his loved ones would have maybe known about?

* From the new movie, ''Jigsaw''; our killer goes to the hospital where his pawn Edgar Munsen is comatose. He injects his IV with something milky white which immediately causes Munsen to wake up, despite the actual doctors believing it could take him years to recover. This magical-coma-fixer juice makes no sense. What is it, how did the killer get it, and why wouldn't medical professionals utilize this stuff on someone who's an important informant to an ongoing crime spree?

* In the film ''Jigsaw'', how did John Kramer know Ryan would be the one to fall into the wire trap? Ryan's name was on the tape recorder. What if Ryan had gotten killed by the saw blades at the beginning, and Mitch later falls into the wire trap? Heck, what if Anna had ended up in Mitch's trap instead of Mitch?
** The tape recorder only had "Play Me" written on it. The recording didn't specify any one person's name.

* Did Logan outright miss the point of John's philosophy in ''Jigsaw'' or should that be chalked up to a failure to provide any proper context to any of the present-day victims? We had Edgar being straight up ''executed'' in the hospital, with the scant bit of information we got he was tasked to survive by retrieving and activating the remote device, which he did. The replacement victims to duplicate the barn game seemed to only serve the purpose of deceiving the audience with matching dead bodies, a plan that would accomplish absolutely nothing if they "won". Halloran, despite being an outright dick in activating Logan's collar first, supposedly followed the "rules" of the tape to confess and was left to die regardless. He kept referring to the "game" but all we effectively saw was him sentencing people to death. Is Logan slipping into Hoffman territory of using the Jigsaw moniker to serve his own needs or did the screenplay just completely screw up in giving us a solid reason for any of the deaths outside of the barn game?

* How on earth did nobody discover the ''Jigsaw'' barn for ''ten years''? Did nobody in the Tuck family check their (apparently well-maintained) barn on their property, which we saw had never been scrubbed of evidence after the game? Jill herself wouldn't become a confidante to John's work until being introduced the "new" Amanda, which chronologically took place well ''after'' the barn test. One of the first things the FBI did after taking over the case in ''Saw IV'' was to go right after Jill as a suspect and, especially after turning herself in later on, did the thought never cross a single person's mind to investigate the property or follow up on a missing persons case that fell right into the later-well-known Jigsaw MO?

!!! Multiple Movies/Media ''Saw'' Headscratchers

* Are we to believe the FBI just flat out ''gave up'' after ''Saw VI''? The last film has Internal Affairs of all people trampling onto what had become a ''federal'' investigation. A mass murderer that had just killed multiple agents doesn't seem like something that would be shrugged off and ignored, ''especially'' after Hoffman was outed, that evidence should have been immediately turned over to the lead investigation instead of the locals charging in and screwing up massively.

* Jigsaw's whole philosophy that separates him from his apprentices is that he abhors killing, and doesn't see the devices he places his victims in as murder. Yet he slashes Tapp's throat in a fashion that clearly should have been fatal and leaves a disguised row of mounted shotguns to cover his tracks. Is this just because he's an insane {{Hypocrite}}, or is it a legitimate plot hole?
** Jigsaw, for all intents and purposes, is a psychopath who's simply found a way to 'justify' his actions. Note that he also says he's not a murderer despite the fact that he puts people in the situations that kill them.
** Everyone who discusses the matter (specifically Lawrence in the first movie) knows/assumes John means this in a purely [[ExactWords technical]] sense; he doesn't kill anyone himself, his traps do... never mind the fact that ''he'' built them (initially, anyway), ''he'' (and his accomplices) abducted the victims, ''he'' (and accomplices) set them up in the traps and he did this knowing full-well that they'd die if they failed to complete their "test". With that said, he (maybe intentionally) ''didn't'' cut Tapp deep enough to do any serious damage, something ''Tapp himself'' notices, which is why he chases after Sing to begin with.
** It could be that since he thinks that what he's doing shouldn't be illegal, that assaulting people trying to capture him ''morally'' counts as self defense.

* First movie, key in the bathtub: why was it there in the first place? As far as I understand, Jigsaw was "punishing" both men, the doctor by threatening his family, and the voyeur by trapping him along with the guy he was snooping on. So what was that for, besides looking like a "very clever" move on the part of the killer?
** In the 3rd movie it was revealed, through flashback, that Amanda just tossed the key into the tub haphazardly, instead of putting it wherever it was meant to go.
*** And yet, Jigsaw knew it at the end. So, why didn't ''he'' put it wherever it was meant to go?
*** A test for Amanda, most likely.
*** It was a final torture that they could have freed themselves at any time.
*** Except they couldn't because, you know, the key was ''in'' the bathtub, which would be drained when Adam woke up, and the key would be lost with the water. Oh, wait, it was ''exactly'' what happened wasn't it? Seriously, that was my point from start.
*** Considering that Jigsaw was pretending to be dead but knew that the key had been in the bathtub, one has to assume that it was supposed to be in there. However, the bathtub was set up to drain the moment that Adam woke up, [[UnWinnable THERE WAS NO WAY FOR HIM TO WIN]]. The key would be drained unless he, for some reason, reached around the bathtub before getting up, which he would have no reason to do. Which makes his sermon at Amanda for making his games unwinnable in the later film just a tiny bit hypocritical.
*** For all his criticism of Amanda, his games are nigh unwinnable anyway: who's going to be able to successfully remove their ''eyeball'', and then use the key embedded in the socket to unlock a steel trap from their head in a matter of seconds without, you know, being too distracted by the agonizing pain? In his twisted mind, he probably ''did'' expect Adam to have the presence of mind to search his surroundings before rising up from the tub, and the key going down the drain was Adam's punishment for not being more careful (or alternately, maybe he was just too distracted with the self-drugging to notice that the key wasn't in its right spot - although, ''Saw 3'' aside, it seemed like he was well aware that the key's no longer be accessible to Adam).
*** And for all this talk of how smart Jigsaw is, he seems remarkably idiotic in this instance if he was trying to teach Adam to be more careful of his surroundings. If you know someone doesn't check their surroundings, then having the key go down the plug hole isn't "teaching them a lesson", if they now have no real way of escaping the scenario and putting that lesson into practice. It's like deliberately running over and killing a jaywalker: they won't make the same mistake again, but they haven't learned a lesson about looking before they cross, either.
*** Its perfectly possible that, for all his rhetoric, he is simple a vengeful sadist out to settle some scores by torturing and humiliating his victims and make them know what power he has over their lives- in other words, it wasn't idiocy, it was Jigsaw being an asshole.
*** Actually, Jigsaw told Amanda to tie the key around Adam's ankle, but Amanda wouldn't have any of that and just threw the key in, almost guaranteeing Adam's failure. This flashback in Saw III was to show that Amanda was a straight-up murderer, or at least very careless, right from the very beginning.
*** Where in the film does Jigsaw tell Amanda to tie it around his ankle? If you and I are thinking of the same thing it may have been in the shooting script but there's no reason to consider it canon if they didn't allow it in the film.
*** If that was the case, the key makes even less sense. Had it been tied to his ankle, he would have found it immediately, turning a can't-win into a can't-lose scenario. Regardless of Jigsaw's intentions, there's no way the key is fair play.
*** It would've changed the dynamic of the bathroom game but Adam still wouldn't have been guaranteed a victory. Just because he can walk around the room doesn't mean he automatically wins. The door is still locked and Gordon's game is still to kill Adam. It would've made Gordon's game more difficult and given Adam a lot more power, but his survival/victory would still not have been guaranteed if he'd gotten out of the shackle.
*** I always interpreted it as being a final torture. Knowing that if he'd only just reached and grabbed the key the voyeur could have freed himself, and the knowledge that the chance to escape had washed down the drain forever, would haunt him until his final moments. The trick here is that hindsight is 20/20. There's no reason he should have thought to grab the key, of course, but when you're desperate and doomed to die it's not an unnatural response to beat yourself up over something like that, knowing freedom brushed ever so close to you. Basically Jigsaw's using his knowledge of human nature to be a dick. Obviously this doesn't take into account the sequels, but then again the first movie was originally meant to be a stand-alone, so Amanda wouldn't have factored in yet when they filmed this final scene.
** When the bathtub was draining of water and Adam was still in it, there was a chance he would feel the key on its way to the drain and would grab it before it was lost forever. That didn't happen, but that doesn't mean the game was unwinnable. He had another option -- or he WOULD have if he hadn't have broken his saw. If he hadn't have done that, he could have done what Lawrence did and cut off his foot to live. Alternatively, Lawrence could have thrown his saw to Adam to achieve the same thing.
** If Jigsaw was on the floor, then who was causing Lawrence and Adam to be electrocuted through their chains? Did Zepp do that? Because there is never any indication in the film that he was responsible...
*** The end of the movie shows Jigsaw using the zapper on them in order for him to escape leaving them behind. It could have been they were just too involved in their predicament to notice any (very slight) movement from him after they've already dismissed him for dead.
** In ''Saw III'' it shows Jiggy injecting himself with, as loosely quoted by the zombie himself, something that will "slow the heartrate" which extends to slowing breathing. And by the time it wears off, both men would be too frantic to even bother to acknowledge the body in the middle of the room anyway
** Neither of them was close enough to even touch the body's outstretched fingertips. Seeing him breathing would've been fairly hard from that distance, particularly if the drug made him do so very shallowly.
** It should also be noted that both characters claim they were 'electrocuted.' Electrocuted means to die as a result of an electrical shock - think 'executed' by electricity. What they should have said was 'electrified.' Especially perplexing as one of the characters is a doctor and really ought to have known better.
*** "Electrocuted" is also used in reference to non-fatal injury by electricity in common parlance.

* Suppose, hypothetically, that Adam's key didn't go down the drain in the first movie. If he had seen the key there, found that it fit his chains and unlocked himself and/or Lawrence...what then? What was the point of the game if it had such an easy solution and escape path that didn't involve a real trial?

* In the first movie, the cops won't shoot (the guy they think is) Jigsaw, because he has information and they don't want to kill him. As a result, he's able to get away. But "shoot to kill" and "don't shoot at all" aren't the only options. [[WhyDontYouJustShootHim Why don't they just shoot him in the leg?]] Or at least ''try'' to?
** Sing did shot him when he made a run for it. Sure they aren't gonna shoot him when he is on his knees that's an execution but yes they did shoot him in the back and he just got up. https://youtu.be/sy8hp938RMw?t=28 why do you think they didn't shoot him?
** Fiction has led you astray. There is no "safe" part of the body to shoot someone in, and [[ImprobableAimingSkills another problem, too]].
*** I know it's not all as easy as it sounds, but... still. At certain points they're at pretty close range. If they shot very low, one would think, they would have a large chance of missing him entirely, a decent-ish chance of hitting his foot, and a pretty small chance of killing him. Which would arguably be better than a 100% chance of him getting away. But of course, this could be completely wrong.
*** Well, wrong yes, and wrong no. It's possible potentially... but any responsibly gun owner knows that you don't point your gun at anything you aren't trying to destroy (See I Shot Marvin In The Head) because it's not really all that easy to shoot to wound - there are major arteries in the leg, after all, and maiming usually isn't something police are wont to do. More than that, police aren't allowed to shoot unless there is an immediate threat to life - someone holding a gun isn't enough reason to shoot. Only if they show intent to harm another or themselves or have actually shot at someone, then is an officer allowed to shoot. And then, officers need to be aware of what's behind the target - shooting into a crowd is bad even if you have a clear shot and the bad guy is shooting at you - if the bullet passes through the target, it can retain enough energy to do harm to whatever (or whomever) is behind it. Of course, as the next troper mentioned, all this is why tasers, beanbag shotguns, and other less-than-lethal weapons are more common place than TV would have you believe... so officers -can- shoot at people and take them down without maiming and killing them.
** The real question is where were all the tasers and beanbag shotguns?
*** Many major city police departments (e.g. San Francisco) do not issue tasers for a variety of reasons (lack of budget for deployment/training, potential danger to the person shot (because it's so much better to shoot someone with a gun that's going to hurt or kill them than a taser that has a chance to harm them), potential for lawsuits, etc.). This occasionally leads to situations such as a drunk waving a knife around being shot and killed. Attempts to aim for a "less lethal" shot don't seem to even be considered. On the other side many police officers seem to frequently use tasers more as a compliance device (i.e. not doing what they say and/or not doing it as quickly as they want you to) such as in the infamous "don't tase me bro" and UCLA library incidents and don't always seem to see as much use to disarm a dangerous suspect.
** Taser-shocks tend to make a target's muscles contract uncontrollably. That's the ''last'' thing you'd want to do if someone has a gun pointed at you, ready to shoot, because it's just going to make their finger cramp up against the trigger.
** Re-watching the first film, it seems Tapp and his partner rushed over to Jigsaw's hideout as soon as Tapp noticed the clue in the video, then refrained from calling for backup because they didn't care to wait around for the warrant. They'd have probably had to requisition non-lethal equipment like bean-bag guns specially for the occasion, which they couldn't do because Tapp was too eager to get there quickly and bust Jigsaw himself.

* In the climax of the first movie, Lawrence goes crazy and saws his foot off. Never mind getting the job done with a rusty old saw. The bones in the human leg are extremely hard, and it would take a very long time to cut through it with a saw. Lawrence would be in excruciating pain and I doubt he'd be able to get very deep into his leg, crazy or not. He would probably pass out from blood loss, exhaustion or shock before he even made a dent on the bone, and then die.
** Likely true, but don't underestimate the power of adrenaline. People in life-or-death situations have gone far beyond normal human endurance before.
*** I don't recall where he cut through, but isn't it possible he (being a surgeon) went for the space where there's just ligament BETWEEN hard bones and didn't attempt to cut through bone?
** That actually didn't bug me. What did bug me is that: Lawrence- you're a doctor. A SURGEON, in fact. You should know that to minimize damage to the leg and overall blood loss, you should cut BELOW the chains, and then slip the leg through them. Instead, you cut above the chains, more or less guaranteeing that you're going to die. I know, I know, it was a stressful situation, but...
*** A. He was the one continually telling Adam to calm down and think things through
*** B. In those kinds of situations, it's the little minutiae that you keep in mind, to distract you from the situation that you're in. I can't help but think that in the several hours he is in that bathroom, Lawrence never recalls that lesson in basic human anatomy.
*** No "but". He had snapped, convinced that his family was dead. ''You'' try keeping your wits about you in that kind of situation. For the whole time in the cell, I don't think they ever considered cutting off their foot as a viable option, and once it was, there was no thinking about it.
*** For that matter, why wouldn't a surgeon think to amputate part of the ''foot'' rather than cut through the leg? Easier to go through the cartilage between tarsals than to transect the tibia, and the arteries would be a lot smaller, reducing blood loss.
*** Because - as with many of the things listed here - people '''do not think rationally in utterly horrific situations'''. It cannot be stressed enough how easy it is to think this all up when you're sitting at a computer in a comfy room with a cold glass of Coke, versus when you've been trapped in a shithole for hours and think your family was just murdered.
*** Except he wouldn't have had to come up with an idea for how best to do the amputation ''right then'': he'd had quite a while to muse over the idea, however reluctantly, between his realizing what the saws were for and his finally losing it. Even if he'd never actually had the slightest intention of ''going through'' with cutting his own foot off, how could he ''not'' have had morbid thoughts about what it would be like to do so, and how best to survive it, during those interludes between conversations with Adam or other distractions...? It'd be like someone stranded on a deserted island never so much as wondering how to build a signal fire until they notice a ship on the horizon.

* Lawrence saws his foot in order to reach the cell phone, which was just a few inches away from his full arm's length. Why did he not use his shirt to bring the phone closer? Don't say they'd be too worried to think for this option, because they had already done it before!
** Or just flip the box around and use the empty part to snag the phone. The answer is the same as the one to most of these questions: panic is the antithesis of logic. Perfectly obvious answers are rarely so clear when one is sure that their family is currently being murdered by a madman.
** Or he wasn't so much trying to get the phone as trying to ''appease Jigsaw'' so his family wouldn't die. Remember that he shoots Adam after he's free and can retrieve the revolver; presumably he does this in the desperate hope that Jigsaw will spare them if he carries out his task of killing Adam for real. Then Zep breaks in and is killed, so Lawrence offers to find help for Adam because, with the man he ''thinks'' is Jigsaw dead, it's no longer necessary that his fellow-trap victim die.

* The more I think about it, the less Lawrence and Adam's trap makes sense to me:
** First, why would Jigsaw trap Lawrence anyway? From the clips of his private life we see, he seems pretty respectful of life. The only thing a bit reprehensible he does is THINKING about cheating on his wife, but he cancels the date before it's too late, and if anything, that shows he enjoys life a bit too much. Jigsaw himself gives an awfully vague reason to trap him: "every day you tell patients they will die soon, now it's your turn to end a life." What the hell?! Is Jigsaw really blaming him for not being able to magically cure patients with terminal diseases? And what about Adam? So yeah, he's a private investigator and as such, he stalks people. Big freaking deal, his job leads either to punishing assholes or cleaning innocent people's image.
*** I think the point of Doctor Lawrence's punishment is basically for being a dick. It's sort of implied (with the whole first scene with Zep) that he's nonchalant about the lives of his patients. Which (especially if you're crazy, like Jigsaw) you can somewhat twist into him being a 'bad person'. But every doctor isn't Patch Adams here, some just kind of get deadened to the emotions that go with oncology. So I'd say that in Jigsaw's mind there is a logical reason Lawrence needs to learn a lesson, though not logical by any stretch of the word in reality.
*** He's definitely cold to his patients, seemingly desensitized to giving them the news of their death. It's also revealed in a later film that he had his hand on the door half the time during appointments, meaning he doesn't spend a second longer with them then he has to.
*** And just to add to this, this actually happens in real life, doctors who deal with terminal patients eventually become desentisized, and no, it's not because they're evil or immoral, it's the mind's protection mechanism, if they become very empathetic of their patients, this can damage their mental health due to the higher pressure on their emotions, it might be good for the patient to have an empathetic doctor, but it's bad for the doctor himself, probably even John undertands this, which shows what a massive hypocrite he is, when he 'helps' his victims, he isn't exactly the least cold person in the world.
** Second, we know that Lawrence must kill Adam, but what is Adam supposed to do? Jigsaw never explains it (and Adam isn't here just as part of Lawrence's test since he gets a tape as well, meaning he too is being tested). Is he just supposed to escape using the key or the saw? And then is he supposed to help Lawrence or leave him to rot? And if Adam escapes early on, does Lawrence lose even if he has plenty of time left?
*** Adam's goal is to survive. As Jigsaw indicates, "Are you going to watch yourself die today Adam, or do something about it?" His test is to actually ''do'' something and not just observe others. If Adam were to free himself from his shackle (which was highly possible given the fact that he was left both the key and the hacksaw) he'd still be locked in the room with Dr. Gordon. The door wasn't open.
** Third, why give them the saws? Okay, maybe one for Adam since it's apparently his secondary mean of escape, but why give Lawrence one too since the goal of his game is explicitly to kill Adam?
*** He had to kill Adam to save his ''family''. That doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have had to free himself too.
*** To add to this, the bathroom game is elaborate. There's multiple solutions to almost everything. Gordon's hacksaw was likely given to him in case he chose to go the gun route to kill Adam.
** And last but not least, why on Earth would Jigsaw put the key to Adam's chain right next to him?! Had Amanda not tossed it in the bathtub, Adam could have just used it and walked away. What is he supposed to learn from that game? Don't forget your keys at home?
*** If Adam's tape is anything to go by, the point of his test was to change his attitude of watching other people's lives while ignoring his own. With that, it seems like he was meant to pay attention to himself enough to find and use the key. According to material that didn't make it into ''Saw III'', Amanda was supposed to have sabotaged the trap by placing the key on his chest rather than tying it to his neck, and by tying the chain for the stopper to his foot.
*** Still makes no sense. If you know someone doesn't pay attention, then to make their survival reliant upon them checking their surroundings when waking up under great stress isn't teaching anything or making a point. It's just rubbing their face in it when they fail in the way you expect- "Ha ha, if you'd looked, you'd have escaped. But you didn't, so you'll die". Which isn't what Jigsaw claims to be doing. And if the key had been tied around Adam's neck, he would have noticed it. Even an unobservant person would notice something unusual around their neck, especially if they were looking for something like a key. Or Lawrence would have noticed it and mentioned it, hoping Adam would free him too.
*** Even unchained, they'd still have had to search around for ways to get out of the ''room''.
** Was it ever explicitly stated that the key left with Adam was to Adam's shackles? Maybe it was the key to ''Lawrence's'' shackles, and the point of leaving it with Adam was to see if he'd actually get ''involved'' with one of the people he's been performing surveillance on from a distance, by trusting the doctor - who, after all, might actually be the one who put him there and/or might have noticed he was being followed and be pissed about it - enough to free the man when he's still trapped himself. Which would add a new level of challenge to ''Lawrence's'' test, since he'd actually owe the man he's ordered to kill a favor.
*** Jigsaw states at the end of Saw that "the key to that chain is in the bathtub," referencing Adam specifically. Now, it's possible the key would have worked for both of their shackles, but that's pure guesswork.
*** He could have been referring to how opening ''Lawrence's'' shackles with the key would be "the key" to Adam getting his own shackles removed, because it would have given Lawrence the chance to escape and bring back help, or even to search the otherwise-inaccessible parts of the room and find ''Adam's'' key hidden in some odd nook or corner. Again, requiring that Adam find it in himself to trust Lawrence despite knowing that Lawrence was being pressured to murder him would have been a very appropriate challenge for a person like Adam.

* It just kind of bugs me that Amanda, who arguably had the ''easiest'' trap of anyone else in the entire series, was a survivor. The only thing she had to do was cut open another person and dig for a key, which should have been a huge decision and a moral conundrum, but Jigsaw explicitly told Amanda that the person was dead, when they really weren't. Seriously, why did he tell her he was dead? And who was this person that Jigsaw simply chose to die? Did he fail a trap in a non-lethal way, with his "death" being used in this way?
** Probably because cutting someone open is still {{Squick}}, and realizing he's still alive before doing it, makes it NightmareFuel.
** It wasn't THAT easy. She had to stab a path through a guy's stomach with a little tiny scalpel and then find a tiny little hidden somewhere inside his intestines and the unlock the RBT and get it off her face. In under sixty seconds, no less. That's not ''arguably'' easy -- it's pretty damn hard. Lawrence had the easiest test of all: all he had to do was shoot a stranger who had been taking pictures of him to give to a crazy ex-police officer. And he was given several hours to do it. And yet, he still didn't succeed.
** It wasn't easy by any normal definition of the word, but it was easy relative to the other games that Jigsaw's subjects had to play. Most involved severe self-mutilation (Pound of Flesh) or the possibility of dying a horrible death as a result of attempting to escape (Flammable Jelly). Compared to having to gouge one's own eye out or crawling through a barbed-wire maze with a time limit, finding a key in some half-conscious guy's entrails is a walk in the park.
** You might want to cut down on the horror films, it's skewed your perspective. People on here handwave victims acting in a stupid fashion by claiming they're in shock or terrified and thus do silly things, but then talk of how easy some traps were and say ridiculous things like 'all she had to do was murder another human being, then root around in his guts to find a key that would unlock the bear trap that's been ticking down this whole time to tearing her face apart...'. Amanda is a junkie, not a psychopath. Sure, some traps are less difficult compared to others, but they're still objectively near-impossible and horrendously traumatizing for the average person. To be honest if you put most people in the RBT and put the key on the other side of the room, most people wouldn't have in undone within sixty seconds, since they'd waste time panicking and fumbling with the lock.
** Well, maybe, ''because'' the trap was easier than most she was able to escape it? That kinda makes sense. Also, Amanda was one of the first victims, so, maybe, after she managed to survive Jigsaw decided that was too easy and made the subsequent traps to be harder to beat.

* In ''Saw'', we see Zepp playing with his kidnap victims in a sadistic manner; i.e. putting a gun to Alison's head and using a stethoscope to observe how Diana's heartbeat reacts. This makes sense while we think that Zepp is Jigsaw, but FridgeLogic kicks in once we learn that he was just yet another innocent pawn. One is left with the feeling that this scene was put there merely for effect, and admittedly it is a very powerful scene ...
** Innocent pawn? There must have been some reason Jigsaw decided to put him in a "game" and poison him. Odds are even though he isn't Jigsaw, he was still a sick fuck.
*** Being in Jigsaw's games reveals nothing about the victim's character. Saying that "there must be a reason Jigsaw chose him, so he's probably a sick fuck" makes no sense; most of his victims are just ordinary, albeit flawed, people. WordOfGod has it that Zepp was relishing a situation where he was finally in control over the lives of others, and he was getting sick thrills from it while he had the opportunity. So, yeah, he ''was'' a sick fuck, but that has nothing to do with why Jigsaw chose him.

* How did Tapp survive with his throat slashed if no one knew where they were?
** It was supposedly Jigsaw who patched him up for the tests in the Video Game.

* First Saw: Why didn't Lawrence, Adam, or both use something heavy and solid, such as for instance the nearby toilet cover to break their chained feet and then slip out of their cuffs, which they could have done at any point in the movie? Sure, it would have hurt like HELL, but it wouldn't have hurt any less than cutting their own feet off, and it would have been infinitely more survivable and even offered them some mobility if they could've fashioned a crutch out of something.
** Banging their feet against something solid could just as easily cause the foot to swell, thus making it harder to get out of the cuffs. Still way better than cutting your foot off, though.
** Neither man wanted to hurt themselves during the game. Laurence only sawed his foot off and attempted to murder Adam after hearing his wife fight for her and their daughter's lives.

* I was watching "How Saw Should Have Ended" and it brings up a couple of interesting points. Like how do you sleep underwater without drowning? I'd mention the blood loss thing as well but they did the same thing in [[spoiler: The Walking Dead Season 1 If you choose to amputate Lee's arm.]] So I'm assuming a good bandage/tourniquet stops blood loss.
** Adam wasn't actually pushed underwater in the flashback from ''III'' when Amanda and Jigsaw were setting up the bathroom game; he only slipped below the surface when the sedative started to wear off and he reflexively shifted position in the uncomfortable bathtub. That dipped his face underwater, which woke him up pretty much instantly.
** Speaking of ''Saw III'''s flashback to how the Bathroom Trap was assembled: If Amanda and Jigsaw were arranging things very shortly before the events of ''Saw'', and they did so with the bathroom lights on, why wasn't the glow-in-the-dark paint already visible when Lawrence and Adam initially woke up?

* Could the police have located the bathroom using Zepp's laptop with the camera feed and the cell phone given to Diana in the first movie?
** Clearly not.
** Jigsaw probably went back and cut off the feed from the camera as soon as he'd finished [[spoiler: cauterizing Lawrence's leg]].
** The real question is; how could they not have located it at all when Tapp, Matthews and Strahm are all led down there? Do they not track vehicles in this universe? Surely they could have worked out the general ''area'' all these people are disappearing from by that point.
*** And, as of ''V'', the area the bathroom is in has clearly been developed, because Hoffman is living in the nerve gas house from ''II''.

* In ''Saw'' the restroom where the game takes place is in a sewage treatment plant (or something like that). However, in ''Saw II'' that same restroom can be reached by going through some hallways connected the basement of a house. Did John buy a house really close to the sewage treatment plant and dig a tunnel over to the restroom, just so that the participants in the game of the second movie could have the opportunity to stumble across the mummified corpse and foot from the first movie?
** Possibly the house was an on-site residence for the manager of the plant, and the tunnels connect to it because they share the same steam-heating system.

---

* This has nothing to do with the ''Saw'' films directly, but the public perception of the ''Saw'' series (i.e., from people who never watched it). I'm trying to figure out exactly why these people loathe the series to such a degree. Yeah, you can debate the films may not be fantastically produced, but since when did gratuitous violence single out an entire horror series as utterly deplorable torture porn (which doesn't accurately classify the series, since there's no real torture performed), and its viewers as sadistic perverts? Hollywood is built on showcasing graphic violence, especially these days, yet ''Saw'' gets singled out as THE point where it goes too far, and is an indication of the impending apocalypse? Hello?! Ever heard of Marquis De Sade, whose literature jump started the concept of sadism? Hell, before De Sade, public brutality (a la ''Gladiator'') was a staple of entertainment. Human brutality has always been around, and even with new technology, people have always discovered awful ways to kill each other. Even more ironic, when the ''Saw'' video games were released, hardcore gamers saw it as an abomination. To say nothing of the survival horror genre, ''Grand Theft Auto'', ''Gears of War'', and especially Rockstar's ''{{Manhunt}}'', which predated the first ''Saw'' movie, AND even made people who're used to violent video games ''very'' uncomfortable. So why single out the ''Saw'' series to this extent? It's one thing to dislike a film series, but to absolutely trash it for simply being malevolent comes off as absurd and hypocritical.

** Not sure about a lot of these, but the body hung from the overpass might've been initially strapped to the side of the parapet and covered by a tarp, making it look like some minor repair to the bridge was in progress. Well after Logan had slipped away, a timer cut the straps and released the body to dangle from the rope.

** The farm may have been in ''much'' worse shape when Logan first came back to re-set the various traps. He might have done a load of repair-work before setting the events we see into motion. He'd need to make sure the new set of victims couldn't just kick their way out through the barn walls, after all.

** In ''Saw V'', John is shown to kidnap his first victim Cecil (the druggie that caused Jill to miscarry) at a Chinese Year of the Pig Festival. He does so by stealing 2 plastic pig masks from one of the stands: One to conceal his identity, and the other one with a rag of chloroform inside to use on Cecil. I'm going to assume he just kinda decided to stick with the motif while also making it a morbid tribute to his unborn son Gideon, who would have been born in the Year of the Pig. Also, as he explains in Jigsaw, pigs are remarkably compassionate animals, showing distress whenever they see another animal, including humans, in pain. I guess he wished we could be more like them.