History Headscratchers / SE7EN

** A common trait of Pride in people who think Pride is bad but are nonetheless guilty of it is the refusal to admit to oneself that one is Proud. Doe would rather pretend to have Envy (which it's obvious is just an excuse - it's doubtful he actually believes it) than admit that he is simply a madman with grandiose delusions. It's painfully obvious that he is guilty of Pride; at the same time, it's painfully obvious that he won't admit to it- after all, another trait of Pride is the refusal to admit that you have done anything wrong.

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, paranoia, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''a whole year'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, paranoia, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation, hallucinations, time distortions and psychotic breaks, and still other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

** RealityIsUnrealistic: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZPuLJYPLl0 There have in fact been voluntary human experiments]] (including some offered by NASA) where people are paid to lie in a bed for a considerable length of time, usually a period of up to a few months, wearing special suits for using the bathroom and being fed by assistants. Within a few ''weeks'' [[BodyHorror you will lose much of your blood volume, your muscles will atrophy (and your body will ''feed'' off your muscles if you don't use them enough), your spine will contort and you will suffer physical pain from staying in one position for a considerable length of time]], not to mention the psychological harm- anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, feelings of intense loneliness and isolation and other symptoms. And most of these experiments are performed on young, fit and healthy people who have to pass intensive physical tests just to make sure they are hale and hearty enough to endure the tests. Now imagine you are just Average Joe Drug Dealer, you are being held hostage in this position against your will, your only company is an insane KnightTemplar who is doing this specifically to torture you, and you are in this position for '''ten years'''. Biting his own tongue was probably something he did in the first few ''days'' of his confinement- because otherwise, he literally would not have had the strength to even ''attempt'' such an act.

*** He said he went after sinners he never said that he '''only''' went after sinners He didn't go after people like the sellers or the clients because he was simply trying to make an example of the Gluttony and Greed victims, not eradicate all bad people. But that doesn't mean he won't kill innocent people to make his point either- the Lust victim arguably wasn't the prostitute, for instance, but the client who hired her, plus he threatened to kill said client AND he shot at Somerset and Mills, and will kill anyone who gets in his way. Besides, he specifically says that he himself is guilty of Envy and needs to be punished for it (in order to turn Mills into Wrath), so he murdered an innocent person for the sake of murdering an innocent person- because it's pretty obvious that he doesn't think murdering "guilty" people is sufficient to make him a sinner. Besides, he wasn't REALLY guilty of Envy- he'd just decided that the ''coup de gras'' of his EvilPlan will be to make Mills into Wrath, and since he has one sin left, the most straightforward way of achieving that is just to pretend that he is Envious of Mills and thats why he killed her- when really, he just needed a flimsy excuse to involve her (and thus Mills) in his twisted story.

* Frankly, John Doe should have been pride. Go back to Milton, the belief that one who is not god has the ability to make judgements in his name is the ultimate example of Pride, which is suppose to be the greatest of the sins. After all, Satan himself is associated with it. John never shows any hint of envy, in fact other than pride and disgust, he shows very little emotion. Envy should have been Sommerset, who clearly is somewhat jealous of MIl's loving relationship.

*** John Doe envied what Mills had (e.g. wife, "children", a "normal" life)
*** The question being, if he secretly wanted to be wrath (which would make sense considering his actions), then envy is still missing since he had only one sin per person up til this point.

** I thought a drug-dealer was perfect as example of sloth, as selling drugs is not a real job and requires very little effort at exchange of a lot of money. Though be a child molester will be more connected to Lust.

Frankly, John Doe should have been pride. Go back to Milton, the belief that one who is not god has the ability to make judgements in his name is the ultimate example of Pride, which is suppose to be the greatest of the sins. After all, Satan himself is associated with it. John never shows any hint of envy, in fact other than pride and disgust, he shows very little emotion. Envy should have been Sommerset, who clearly is somewhat jealous of MIl's loving relationship.

*** He said he went after sinners he never said that he '''only''' went after sinners He didn't go after people like the sellers or the clients because he was simply trying to make an example of the Gluttony and Greed victims, not eradicate all bad people. But that doesn't mean he won't kill innocent people to make his point either- the Lust victim arguably wasn't the prostitute, for instance, but the client who hired her, plus he threatened to kill said client AND he shot at Somerset and Mills, and will kill anyone who gets in his way. Besides, he specifically says that he himself is guilty of Envy and needs to be punished for it (in order to turn Mills into Wrath), so he murdered an innocent person for the sake of murdering an innocent person- because it's pretty obvious that he doesn't think murdering "guilty" people is sufficient to make him a sinner. Besides, he wasn't REALLY guilty of Envy- he'd just decided that the ''coup de gras'' of his EvilPlan will be to make Mills into Wrath, and since he has one sin left, the most straightforward way of achieving that is just to pretend that he is Envious of Mills and thats why he killed her- when really, he just needed a flimsy excuse to involve her (and thus Mills) in his twisted story.

** Thank you for this answer! But I don't think I worded my question clearly enough. If Doe did think that [[spoiler: Tracy]] was innocent, why did he kill her? In his speech in the car, he makes it clear that he only went after people who had actually ''committed'' deadly sins, not ''inspired'' them--he didn't, for instance, attack the people who sold the Gluttony victim food, or the Greed victim's clients. Doe's clearly a misanthrope who hates the world, but he doesn't really seem to have a KillEmAll mentality, either, nor does he seem like an AxCrazy psychopath (his murders were all carefully planned and justified in his own head). So I still can't figure out how [[spoiler: Tracy's]] murder fits into his plan.

** Doe didn't believe that she was guilty of anything. She was innocent. She was an innocent victim of his Envy.

* There's one thing I've never understood about Doe's motivation for [[spoiler: killing Tracy]]. His MotiveRant reveals that he only killed people who were, in his mind, guilty of committing a deadly sin. Doe even goes so far as to attack Somerset and Mills for calling his victims "innocent," suggesting that he only wanted to kill people who had actually done something wrong. So how does he justify [[spoiler: killing a young woman who's totally blameless?]] It's suggested that he did it because [[spoiler: she]] made him feel envious, but that's not [[spoiler: her]] fault; it seems analogous to killing a rich man because you want what he has. What's Doe's reasoning behind this particular murder?

** So, in a way. Doe tried to purify his victims AND himself, trying to save them from their sins. This fits in with his belief of him doing God's work.

* Throughout the film it becomes clear that the pattern is Sin. The detectives understandably take the simpler view that these are a pattern of murders based on the Sins, where really the pattern is the Sins themselves. This is exacerbated by Gluttony being the murder of a man via force-feeding and Greed that of a biblical 'pound of flesh' punishment (there was actually a small chance the Greed victim could have survived). These first two make it look like Doe's motivation is solely based on murder. The Sloth victim is the first misstep in the perceived pattern as he is not dead - the motivation was demonstrating the sin. The Lust victim is not actually guilty of Lust (though Doe still feels contempt for her being a 'disease-spreading whore'), the client is. Again the motivation is the demonstration of the sin rather than truly punishing the sinner. Doe does admit that he enjoyed 'turning each sin against the sinner', but as mentioned already, you don't have to kill the sinner to turn their sin against them. The Pride victim is another demonstration, where Doe is attempting to show society that some people are so full of Pride (in this case the sin is the very modern syndrome of obsession with one's physical appearance) that if they are deprived of the focus of their Pride they would rather end their own life. In the Pride case, Doe specifically disfigures but very carefully bandages the victim, ensuring she would not die unless by her own hand. The last two are very subtle demonstrations and fit in with Doe's belief that his 'work' will be pored over and studied endlessly. Doe believes himself to be guilty of Envy (specifically of Mills' life and his wife) and so turns this sin against himself by killing Tracy and thus destroying the object of his envy, with the greater purpose of tipping Mills over the edge into giving in to his Wrath. When Mills kills Doe, his sin of Wrath (which Doe had already noted was a trait of his when he commented that Mills would likely assault or even kill him if left alone with him in a windowless room without fear of consequences) is turned against him, completing the list of Sins.

* When John Doe turns himself in, the police explain that he's been cutting the skin off his fingertips for quite some time, hence why they couldn't find any fingerprints in his apartment. But just after the police find the Sloth victim, the killer shows up to take Mills's picture and his fingers seem to be perfectly unharmed, nor does he appear to be wearing gloves. Just a simple continuity error, or am I missing something?

** Also, [[spoiler: Mills]] would probably not [[spoiler: get the death penalty]]. While he did [[spoiler:murder an unarmed, handcuffed suspect]], the dude was [[spoiler: a serial killer]] who had just [[spoiler:killed Mills' wife and shipped her dismembered head to him in a box]]. Under the circumstances, "extreme emotional disturbance" would be open-and-shut here, [[spoiler: which means decades in a prison and/or mental institution]], but not [[spoiler:death]]. Unless, of course, [[spoiler: Doe had meant to "kill" Mills' spirit, but maybe not his actual body. Then he succeeded without question]].

** Also, sloth is not just laziness. Sloth is the sin of moral complacency and indifference. But yes, the drug-dealing pederast seems like an odd choice for that sin.

* The last two deaths don't fit in with the pattern of the others. In the first five, they were killed by an overabundance of their sins (although Greed is a little shaky in that regard.) If we count [[spoiler: Mills' wife]] to be the sixth death, then she didn't die because she was envious. She died because someone was envious for her. That would be like saying that the victim of gluttony would be someone getting eaten to death. The same goes for [[spoiler:John Doe.]] If he is the victim of wrath, he didn't die because he was wrathful, he died because he made someone else mad. This is solved somewhat if you consider [[spoiler: John Doe]] the sixth death, and [[spoiler: Mills]] the seventh death (assuming he dies from the death penalty), but it's still a leap.
** The last two sins are Envy and Wrath, they don't have to be deaths, as seen with sloth, so they are [[spoiler: Doe and Mills]] respectively.

** Also, [[spoiler: Mills]] would probably not [[spoiler: get the death penalty]]. While he did [[spoiler:murder a unarmed, handcuffed suspect]], the dude was [[spoiler: a serial killer]] who had just [[spoiler:killed Mills' wife and shipped her dismembered head to him in a box]]. Under the circumstances, "extreme emotional disturbance" would be open-and-shut here, [[spoiler: which means decades in a prison and/or mental institution]], but not [[spoiler:death]]. Unless, of course, [[spoiler: Doe had meant to "kill" Mills' spirit, but maybe not his actual body. Then he succeeded without question]].
** Also, those would not be the only two killings that don't fit the supposed pattern: for lust, Doe forces a john to kill a prostitute by raping her with some sort of strap-on dagger-dildo. It's presumably not the prostitute who was committing the sin of lust, however, but the john. So it's really a pattern of four, out of seven, in which Doe kills the sinner in a manner appropriate to the sin, and three in which Doe engineers the killing of someone else, i.e., the prostitute, Tracy Mills, and himself, as a victim of the sin in question. So really, there are two patterns.
*** It's been stated the victim of lust is the prostitute, although shouldn't the victim of pride be more accurately considered as victim of vanity?
** The two final victims are [[spoiler:John Doe]] (envy) and [[spoiler:David Mills]] (wrath). It's all built on the penal system in use during Dante's lifetime. [[spoiler:A man sentenced to death could either be executed or his wife and children could be. The loss of his entire family was considered equal to taking his life.]] That is exactly what Doe does to the wrath victim, only he kind of lucked out on the part [[spoiler:about the child.]] This is all foreshadowed earlier when he says [[spoiler:to Mills "what life I will allow you to have".]]

* From above points, considering [[spoiler:sloth isn't dead yet,]] isn't his work still kinda incomplete?
** so sensitive if you shine a flashlight into the man's eyes he'll go into shock? for all intents and purposes he is dead.
* While the gluttony victim was certainly guilty of his sin, he did not, to our knowledge, actually harm anyone or commit any crimes. By most modern definitions, that would mean he is innocent. [[spoiler:So why do Mills and Somerset appear to agree with the serial killer about his lack of innocence? ]]

** Drug dealers might not be "lazy" so to speak, but they contribute to a lifestyle that encourages Sloth for everyone else. Also, as Topher Grace stated in Traffic, "You can go out on the street and make five-hundred dollars in two hours, come back and do whatever you want to do with the rest of your day." Given how fast money can be made through their "trade" drug dealers, especially very well connected middle-men, generally let their clients seek them out. We never got any indication that the victim was particularly wrathful or any greedier than any of the other drug dealers in the city, pederasty notwithstanding, but Doe more than likely chose him because of his connection to the Greed victim (a city attorney who got him absolved of said pederasty in court).

*** Plus, John Doe is just insane. He wants to kill one person for each sin, but, uh oh, I don't have anyone for wrath. No problem, I'll just ''manufacture'' one, God would totally want that.

*** But if so where is envy?

**** [[spoiler: This may be when John chose Mills as his Wrath victim. In the ending scene Doe tells Mills how disturbing easily a man of the press could purchase information from the men in his precinct. This implies Doe went to the police station specifically to purchase information about Mills.]]

* Would being tied to a bed for a year really destroy your mind to the point where you bite off your own tongue? Don't get me wrong, it would take quite a while to get over something like that, but I think you would have to be tied up for at least a decade to get to the state seen in the film.

* While the gluttony victim was certainly guilty of his sin, he did not, to our knowledge, actually harm anyone or commit any crimes. By most modern definitions, that would mean he is innocent. [[spoiler:So why do Mills and Somerset appear to agree with the serial killer about his lack of innocence? ]]