History Headscratchers / LegacyofKain

*** Regarding any potential tampering by Moebius, that is unlikely. From what we know, what you see in time itself is what will happen, and Moebius has no power over it. All of the cutscenes in the Chronoplast Chamber can be explained: Raziel confronting Kain happens several more times in the story (the architecture is indistinct enough that it could be in William's chapel from SR2, for example), Raziel does end up absorbing Ariel's soul in Defiance (the circumstances may be a little different, but what matters from destiny's standpoint is that he gets the purified reaver), and as for the shot of Raziel standing with the red reaver, some fans believe the cutscene in SR2 where Raziel leaves Janos' Retreat with the fire reaver in hand, was specifically set up to look like that, as the developers' way to "correct" the continuity.[[/folder]]

*** That is assuming that the Choronoplast Chamber that Kain used to find out about every predestined event up until now WASN'T tampered by Moebius long before Kain could even consider taking a look there. Think back in Soul Reaver 1 before the final fight with Kain: there are six cutscenes relating some time-visions (or something). Three were past visions of actions that Raziel (and the player) already did and the other three are from "the future" where 1) He confronts Kain in Nupraptor's Retreat 2) Strikes Ariel with the Soul Reaver and it becomes the White Reaver 3) Raziel is standing at the top of the Silenced Cathedral after activating the frequency that killed all the vampires in the world (those last visions are actually what could have been in the game but that is not the point). The point here is that we know that those last three visions WON'T happen at all, but somehow they are ignored and not questioned by Kain or Raziel. The fact that these visions could be false doesn't tip them off to ACTUALLY believe the machine was tampered. Even if it wasn't altered, there is still the fact that even if Kain doesn't remember seeing his older self when he was young, that won't stop Raziel from trying. After all, he has free will and there is nothing he could lose, in fact he could try to visit Younger Kain when he already has the Soul Reaver in his possession to trigger the almost paradox moment that he need to weaken the flow of time enough to warn Younger Kain.[[/folder]]

[[folder:The Hylden Lord's machinations]]* Here's the big issue. Hylden General/Sarafan Lord is the same character who was possessing Mortainus/Janos in Defiance. He was able to set his plans into motion by manipulating Raziel into tearing the heart of darkness out of the Scion of Balance-- Kain-- and putting it back into Janos. He presumably knew that Kain was the Scion(He knew Mortainus put the heart into a vampire he believed to be the scion, which was Kain), and he believed that by tearing the heart out of the Elder Kain, Raziel had killed him. So, while leading his army against the Younger Kain's vampire army, how is it that he thought he could actually win? Kain has to survive to become the elder Kain that Raziel takes the heart from, which is how his plan gets put into motion. For Kain to survive, that means the Hylden General can't kill the younger version. Yet he has complete confidence his plan will succeed inspite of coming into conflict with Young Kain, he is surprised that Young Kain survived their first battle, and has complete confidence he'll kill Kain in their final showdown.

** If it's all a big fake out then they are making a hell of sacrifice for it, since many of them get sucked in by Raziel or the Reaver, destroying their consciousness entirely just to keep Raziel on track to do what he wants to do anyway. On the spirit changing a corpse's shape that doesn't work as an explanation, as most of the corpses the Hylden possess are human in appearance, lacking the Hylden's wings, and some have Ancient style wing bones (as seen on the dead Pillar Guardians) which have nothing to do with the possessing spirit while only a very few have the Hylden style wings. Only Raziel is seen changing the shape of his possessed corpse and in his case the transformation is complete, no longer even looking like a corpse. Well, not more than he usually does.[[/folder]]

** Recall the William the Just situation. Going for the simple option can very easily backfire on you.[[/folder]]

*** Second. The Reaver wasn't some dusty relic throughout it's existence, it was definitely used for 'at least' arcane research's.

** Second. The Reaver wasn't some dusty relic throughout it's existence, it was definitely used for 'at least' arcane research's.

*** It's more than that. Kain needed Raziel to be brought back as what he became. While he didn't know about the Elder God his observations of the timestream had told him exactly what needed to happen in order for Raziel to become the creature he did, free will and all. Kain had to follow that script precisely or risk the whole thing failing.[[/folder]]

** That's a small enough detail that it could be hand-waived as an oversight from the developers, but it's also been speculated that Vorador was never completely dead, or that he had some way to partially regenerate. So, the fact that Kain was never shown resurrecting him before Blood Omen 2 isn't a problem since Vorador had some means of surviving past Moebius' beheading.

Original paradox when [[spoiler:Kain wields the Reaver against William the Just]], also wielding the Reaver. When Kain wields future Reaver against past Reaver there are multitudes of paradoxes that the blade must sustain. I'm saying sustain because whatever happens to William's Reaver will need to be evident in Kain's Reaver later, but simultaneously. Every strike will echo across the time and then back again to the Reaver in Kain's hands and each strike, limiting the paradoxical properties to not only to the time of the battle but to the entire time spanning the Reaver's existence after William's battle with Kain until the conclusion of the battle with it in Kain's hands. Alone the blade can NEVER strike itself because it can never BE anywhere else, other than where it is, let alone as another of itself to do so. Since Kain makes this possible through time travel, the Reaver must gain some perverted, impossible, and unintended, form of free will at Kain's hand. More specifically, the blade then represents the purest form of rebellion, in the form of perverted free will, against the properties of fate as set by the timeline, and I believe never loses this property of and ability to tamper with entire actions and events regarding 'fate', as it were. The Reaver would NEVER possess Raziel's soul until Raziel, with his soul draining ability and wraith blade, die in the presence of the Reaver. If Kain handed him the Reaver, and then killed him somehow, (or if Raziel died any other way wielding the Reaver himself by even a KungFuProofMook) the Reaver would absorb the wraith blade and Raziel as he died, even with it in his own hands. Kain would then, at some point, obtain the un-purified Reaver to continue with the plot we are all familiar with, taunting and mocking the fool Raziel at every step, stifling searing bloodrage over Moebius' petty, childlike meddling throughout.[[/folder]]

* I think I have both an answer and a question regarding how [[spoiler: Vorador is alive in ''Blood Omen 2'' when he should've been executed in the first ''Blood Omen'' game.]] I'll start with the answer first: do you know that in ''Defiance'', Raziel was able to [[spoiler:resurrect Janos Audron by using his Wraith Blade to mend his wounds?]] So, this must have been done in the same manner to [[spoiler:resurrect Vorador by the future Kain in ''Defiance'' with the use of his Soul Reaver.]] Afterwards, the future Kain must have told Vorador to aid the past Kain in the events of ''Blood Omen 2'', thus creating a BootstrapParadox. But here's this catch: the future Kain's Soul Reaver has been made into the Purified Reaver in the end of ''Defiance'', meaning that anyone that has been healed by the Purified Reaver is granted the ability to [[spoiler: see the [[EldritchAbomination Elder God]].]] So was Vorador able to [[spoiler:see the Elder God during the events of ''Blood Omen 2''?]] If so, why hasn't he mention any of this to the past Kain?

Original paradox when [[spoiler:Kain wields the Reaver against William the Just]], also wielding the Reaver. When Kain wields future Reaver against past Reaver there are multitudes of paradoxes that the blade must sustain. I'm saying sustain because whatever happens to William's Reaver will need to be evident in Kain's Reaver later, but simultaneously. Every strike will echo across the time and then back again to the Reaver in Kain's hands and each strike, limiting the paradoxical properties to not only to the time of the battle but to the entire time spanning the Reaver's existence after William's battle with Kain until the conclusion of the battle with it in Kain's hands. Alone the blade can NEVER strike itself because it can never BE anywhere else, other than where it is, let alone as another of itself to do so. Since Kain makes this possible through time travel, the Reaver must gain some perverted, impossible, and unintended, form of free will at Kain's hand. More specifically, the blade then represents the purest form of rebellion, in the form of perverted free will, against the properties of fate as set by the timeline, and I believe never loses this property of and ability to tamper with entire actions and events regarding 'fate', as it were. The Reaver would NEVER possess Raziel's soul until Raziel, with his soul draining ability and wraith blade, die in the presence of the Reaver. If Kain handed him the Reaver, and then killed him somehow, (or if Raziel died any other way wielding the Reaver himself by even a [[KungFuProofMook]]) the Reaver would absorb the wraith blade and Raziel as he died, even with it in his own hands. Kain would then, at some point, obtain the un-purified Reaver to continue with the plot we are all familiar with, taunting and mocking the fool Raziel at every step, stifling searing bloodrage over Moebius' petty, childlike meddling throughout.[[/folder]]

Original paradox when [[spoiler:Kain wields the Reaver against William the Just]], also wielding the Reaver. When Kain wields future Reaver against past Reaver there are multitudes of paradoxes that the blade must sustain. I'm saying sustain because whatever happens to William's Reaver will need to be evident in Kain's Reaver later, but simultaneously. Every strike will echo across the time and then back again to the Reaver in Kain's hands and each strike, limiting the paradoxical properties to not only to the time of the battle but to the entire time spanning the Reaver's existence after William's battle with Kain until the conclusion of the battle with it in Kain's hands. Alone the blade can NEVER strike itself because it can never BE anywhere else, other than where it is, let alone as another of itself to do so. Since Kain makes this possible through time travel, the Reaver must gain some perverted, impossible, and unintended, form of free will at Kain's hand. More specifically, the blade then represents the purest form of rebellion, in the form of perverted free will, against the properties of fate as set by the timeline, and I believe never loses this property of and ability to tamper with entire actions and events regarding 'fate', as it were. The Reaver would NEVER possess Raziel's soul until Raziel, with his soul draining ability and wraith blade, die in the presence of the Reaver. If Kain handed him the Reaver, and then killed him somehow, (or if Raziel died any other way wielding the Reaver himself by even [[MookDeath]]) the Reaver would absorb the wraith blade and Raziel as he died, even with it in his own hands. Kain would then, at some point, obtain the un-purified Reaver to continue with the plot we are all familiar with, taunting and mocking the fool Raziel at every step, stifling searing bloodrage over Moebius' petty, childlike meddling throughout.[[/folder]]

[[folder: Kain lies all the time -- nothing but spoilers BO1, SR1, SR2]]
Original paradox when [[spoiler:Kain wields the Reaver against William the Just]], also wielding the Reaver. When Kain wields future Reaver against past Reaver there are multitudes of paradoxes that the blade must sustain. I'm saying sustain because whatever happens to William's Reaver will need to be evident in Kain's Reaver later, but simultaneously. Every strike will echo across the time and then back again to the Reaver in Kain's hands and each strike, limiting the paradoxical properties to not only to the time of the battle but to the entire time spanning the Reaver's existence after William's battle with Kain until the conclusion of the battle with it in Kain's hands. Alone the blade can NEVER strike itself because it can never BE anywhere else, other than where it is, let alone as another of itself to do so. Since Kain makes this possible through time travel, the Reaver must gain some perverted, impossible, and unintended, form of free will at Kain's hand. More specifically, the blade then represents the purest form of rebellion, in the form of perverted free will, against the properties of fate as set by the timeline, and I believe never loses this property of and ability to tamper with entire actions and events regarding 'fate', as it were. The Reaver would NEVER possess Raziel's soul until Raziel, with his soul draining ability and wraith blade, die in the presence of the Reaver. If Kain handed him the Reaver, and then killed him somehow, (or if Raziel died any other way wielding the Reaver himself by even [[MookDeath]]) the Reaver would absorb the wraith blade and Raziel as he died, even with it in his own hands. Kain would then, at some point, obtain the un-purified Reaver to continue with the plot we are all familiar with, taunting and mocking the fool Raziel at every step, stifling searing bloodrage over Moebius' petty, childlike meddling throughout.

[[folder: Kain lies all the time (nothing but spoilers BO1, SR1, SR2)]]

* So, OP here, if I'm wrong about the wraith blade and it IS indeed Raziel, I have to fall back on the lore of the Blood Reaver's forging by Voradorand take a few liberties. Being as how Vorador is tasked with the forging of the Blood Reaver by the Ancients as a human, it can be reasonably inferred that Vorador forged it with the aid of the magic of the Ancients. It is similarly likely that the magic would be akin to that of the pillars as they are both made to identify (by placement, ie pillars standing/specific location probably and, blade striking intended drainee) and contain a specific element (Hylden or blood) in the ordered realm. Further, Ancient's magic is probably totally soul oriented, thereby supporting my opinion that the Blood Reaver would, without much doubt, evntually become the Soul Reaver. In this respect, again, it can be likely assumed that as Kain trained with his lieutenants, he may have noticed the affinity that the blade took, to Raziel in particular, and, having a working knowledge of soul manipulation, may have noticed it accumulating or resonating more purely in combative pratice against him. This, too, can be attributed to the the fact that Raziel's evolution was most like the original Ancient's and the blade matched to this at it's basic level. I feel that if the wraith blade is, in entirety, Raziel's soul, it is whatever soul material that was knocked loose in his creation process that resonated to what lingered in the spectral realm when the Blood Reaver was shattered. In addition, Raziel's new form possessed it's own, new, type of soul, as, obviously, the Blood Reaver can take it. This was likely because his new form of soul was undeniable to the Blood Reaver in the presence of it's evolved, yet familiar, future capabilities. I really don't think it was Raziel's, full unadulterated, soul from a different time being recognized like he thought.[[/folder]]

[[folder: SPOILER --->>>[[spoiler: Invincible Vorador]]

[[folder: [[spoiler: Invincible]] Vorador (SPOILERS! :/ lol)]]

[[folder: [[spoiler: Invincible]] Vorador (SPOILERS! :/ lol)

* Were the Hylden evil before they were banished? The only concrete facts about them from before their imprisonment was that they fought a war against the Vampires which the Vampires started over the fact that they did not worship the Elder God (Which, since he turned out to be evil, is arguably a point in their favor). Their evil actions don't start until after they've been trapped in another dimension by the power of the Pillars for hundreds or thousands of years. Did their imprisonment make them evil or were they always that way?

** Actually i believe that they are more like Well Intensioned Extremists if we consider that the wiping of all living creatures in Nosgoth as a safe way to ensure that the Elder God died and doesn't manipulate anyone forever. The problem with this idea is that i don't know how the Hylden knew that the Elder God isn't a god per se but a creature acting like one to the Ancient Vampires or how they do EVEN know if this plan is going to work. Sure, all creatures will be dead but i am sure that after many millennia the world eventually will have life again or at least the Hylden will become the dominant race that after a bunch of time they will evolve in different races that will replenish the planet.

* Here's one for you. In Soul Reaver 2, when Raziel was sent to the future instead of the past like he wanted, Vorador was supposed to be long dead. But when you arrive in the swamp, two of his magical crows can be found, and vanish when approached.

** We don't know how Vorador controls the crows. Just because he's dead doesn't mean they disappear. They could just linger on, waiting for their master to return.

* Why Kain or Raziel they never try to meet their younger selves? wont that create a paradox they need? even if that doesnt work it would be nice to see that. To see how the younger Kain would even react and to see how several acts of this kind actually serves to reinforce the fact that destiny isn't going to give in so easily.

*** That is assuming that the Choronoplast Chamber that Kain used to find out about every predestined event up until now WASN'T tampered by Moebius long before Kain could even consider taking a look there. Think back in Soul Reaver 1 before the final fight with Kain: there are six cutscenes relating some time-visions (or something). Three were past visions of actions that Raziel (and the player) already did and the other three are from "the future" where 1) He confronts Kain in Nupraptor's Retreat 2) Strikes Ariel with the Soul Reaver and it becomes the White Reaver 3) Raziel is standing at the top of the Silenced Cathedral after activating the frequency that killed all the vampires in the world (those last visions are actually what could have been in the game but that is not the point). The point here is that we know that those last three visions WON'T happen at all, but somehow they are ignored and not questioned by Kain or Raziel. The fact that these visions could be false doesn't tip them off to ACTUALLY believe the machine was tampered. Even if it wasn't altered, there is still the fact that even if Kain doesn't remember seeing his older self when he was young, that won't stop Raziel from trying. After all, he has free will and there is nothing he could lose, in fact he could try to visit Younger Kain when he already has the Soul Reaver in his possession to trigger the almost paradox moment that he need to weaken the flow of time enough to warn Younger Kain.

* Why the Elder God doesn't try to brainwash Raziel during the many times he could do it? i mean, i know that calling it a god and being able to do such thing is debatable but he HAS some non human minions that return souls to the wheel and you did think that he would do something like that on Raziel

*** Actually his free will comes from being a walking mini paradox by having his own soul attach to his arm. And Raziel even question if he is indestructible because of the EG or an unseen force and he is taking credit for.

* I'm not buying that Raziel ever killed Kain with the Reaver when he was historically supposed to. In fact, he walked into that confrontation rather intent on ''not'' killing Kain, simply because everyone else was compelling him to do so. He knew something wasn't right, and was determined not to be played. Given that he did not have murder on his mind, I have a hard time buying the massive struggle against changing a history that I say never took place.

** Also, destiny is an actual thing in this series. In the original timeline (if there ever was one), Raziel was not aware of the greater picture and simply killed Kain for revenge. Kain averted this fate by goading Raziel along a path that would make him less single-minded by showing him that there were other machinations at work. Raziel would have killed Kain at that point but chose otherwise, but only due to what he had found out. What Raziel had to struggle against was destiny trying to keep to the script, as it were.

* Just what was the final boss in Blood Omen meant to be, we know that he was retconned into being the Hylden Lord but when Blood Omen was just a stand alone game, what was he, just a random demon messing with the world for laughs? He just turns up after Mortanius dies and reveals he was behind it all but why, why did he need to posses Mortanius, what was his motive and was there any foreshadowing about him at all? I heard that originally Mortanius was the villain and did everything himself and would have been the final boss so why did they add a random demon to appear at the end? It only makes sense now because of the other games and him being written as the Hylden Lord but what was it originally?

* I'm mildly surprised this hasn't been brought up already...but how is Raziel able to speak when he doesn't have a tongue or lower jaw?

** Humor aside, Raziel is a supernatural creature, so his ability to speak is due to magic.
* Why should the pillars be 'returned' to Vampire control? The Ancient Vampires are all gone, and their successors are innately bloodthirsty sociopaths who are inimical to all other lifeforms. Unless the Blood Curse can be lifted, it would surely be better to train the Humans to accept their duties responsibly rather than patriarchally condescending them as too naive to ever do the job. On that note, the Ancient Vampires aren't as wise as they thought they were- they built the pillars to imprison the Hylden as part of an unjust religious war they were tricked into by a cosmic parasite. Why would we want them in charge again, even free of the Blood Curse? Finally, since Nosgoth obviously existed just fine before the pillars, why are they so essential to the world's balance at all?

*** We tend to side with humans in fictional setting because, well, we are humans but in Nosgoth, CrapsackWorld that it is, there are no "good races" and precious few innocent individuals among the existing races. Vampires, Hylden and humans all have their deep moral failings and some can blamed on the Elder God and/or each other but by this point the Hylden have become monsters and the humans are not up to keeping them out so yes, Vampire control is the lesser of many evils.
* Other than being a self-righteous twit, why is Raziel so quick to condemn the Sarafan for being bloodthirsty bigots when all they're really doing is fighting against a predatory race whose very existence depends on slaughtering the innocent?

* The reason the hylden were able to attack so directly was because humans were too weak to keep the seal, if vampires were still guarding they would not have even managed that let alone getting completely free later on. the trouble is that humans are much younger than the other races of nosgoth and just follow whoever tricks them first. You claim things were going fine until the hylden started their plot? well thats the point, the fact that the hylden returned shows how badly humans screwed up, vampires are needed to keep the hylden out and the humans were fucking things up for them and in the long run for themselves.

** It likely just didn't occur to him until that point, since only vampires have ever used the Reaver (as far as he knew, this was young Kain, unaware of Raziel's time with the sword).
* While not a huge plot point, why is it that nobody noticed that the Sarafan Lord in Blood Omen 2 wasn't human? Seriously, the guy walks around and might as well be wearing a sign saying "I am a demon." I can accept the possibility that the Sarafan did know that but he convinced them he was on their side via EnemyMine with the vampires, but none of the vampires notice he isn't human beside Janos, and it's never implied that anybody had but him had a clue.

** They may have thought he was a sorcerer with a love of intimidating costumes. He'd hardly be the first - Mobius looked like a walking corpse and led the Sarafan and vampire hunters for centuries.
* Mobius and Mortanius spend over 500 years as pillar guardians. Do all the guardians get this immortality, or is just because they are the Time and Death guys?

** Janos confirms in Defiance that the Ancients' racial immortality was the main part of the curse placed upon them by the Hylden, as well as sterility and bloodthirst. It could be that the Pillar Guardians were always meant to be immortal, only being replaced if they died of unnatural causes. They would make this sacrifice so that the rest of the Ancients could remain part of the Wheel of Fate while the war with the Hylden was ended. The curse screwed that up, however, turning them into Vampires and making the Elder God abandon them. THEN they started committing suicide. Therefore, the human guardians could well be immortal.
* Considering the reason everything went to shit with the pillars because Ariel was murdered and thus Nupraptor cursed the rest of the circle, including Kain at birth, couldn't the whole situation be fixed if Raziel just went back in time and prevented Ariel's death?

** Recall the William the Just situation. Going for the simple option can very easily backfire on you.
* When Raziel gets sucked into the Reaver, where does the Raziel soul he's wielding go to? At the end of ''Defiance'', I'm pretty sure the ArmSword!Raziel is used to purify Kain while Regular!Raziel becomes Reaver!Raziel, but in every other timeline did infinite Raziels just keep piling up inside the Reaver?

* If Raziel is strong enough to move gigantic blocks of stone with his bare hands, how can humans give him any difficulty? Can he not simply shatter blades and shields with a single punch? Shouldn't he be able to kill a human with a single swing of his weapon?

Bottom line is that - yes, I believe that humans shouldn't really stand a chance. Blood Omen 1 is probably the most "realistic" in the way of how tough the humans would probably be - the rest of the games don't seem to be as accurate. Yet, I'd call that a variation of GameplayAndStorySegregation where the combat gameplay does not really show the real power of either Raziel/Kain, or their (human? all?) enemies, or both.
* If history can be changed at the point where two versions of the Soul Reaver meet, then why did Moebius go near Raziel when he repaired the sword? He truly risked his entire existence at that point, and all he did was reveal that he serves the Elder God.
** Moebius is a master manipulator and judged, correctly, that he could get out of the situation. No risk, no reward.

* How can Raziel talk? He has no bottom jaw, tongue, lips, or even vocal chords. Any sound whatsoever from his face should be impossible.

** Ariel lacks her entire body yet she's still quite able to talk. Pretty clear spirits can produce sound in the setting without need of the physical mechanics of such.

* Why didn't Kain just tell Raziel the truth about why he needed to execute him in order to stop the Elder God? Or heck, why not just tell Raziel the entire plan and even take him to the Chronoplast in order to prove his claims.

*** It's more than that. Kain needed Raziel to be brought back as what he became. While he didn't know about the Elder God his observations of the timestream had told him exactly what needed to happen in order for Raziel to become the creature he did, free will and all. Kain had to follow that script precisely or risk the whole thing failing.

* One thing in ''Defiance'' that puzzles me: Why are the Hylden attacking Raziel? They keep popping up, possessing corpses and trying to kill Raziel. Now I'm willing to accept that they don't know that killing Raz is basically not an option but, given that he is required in order to complete their plan, why are trying attacking? Also on a related side note why does Vorador have so many corpses in the floors of his mansion? The human bodies I get, guy's gotta eat, but he seems to have Ancient and even ''Hylden'' corpses there judging by the shape of the Hylden possessed corpses.

** If it's all a big fake out then they are making a hell of sacrifice for it, since many of them get sucked in by Raziel or the Reaver, destroying their consciousness entirely just to keep Raziel on track to do what he wants to do anyway. On the spirit changing a corpse's shape that doesn't work as an explanation, as most of the corpses the Hylden possess are human in appearance, lacking the Hylden's wings, and some have Ancient style wing bones (as seen on the dead Pillar Guardians) which have nothing to do with the possessing spirit while only a very few have the Hylden style wings. Only Raziel is seen changing the shape of his possessed corpse and in his case the transformation is complete, no longer even looking like a corpse. Well, not more than he usually does.

* So what eventually happened to the Sarafan? I get that they took some serious blows at the end of ''Soul Reaver 2,'' what with Vorador massacring most of their leadership and Raziel killing their best warriors, but they're still a large organisation and there's still vampires left alive. Indeed one might expect them to be very motivated to find and kill Vorador and the unknown weird-looking vampire/demon thing that killed their best and then vanished, similarly to what happened when Kain killed William the Just. So why did they go away?

** Obviously Vorador made more, hence why there's a viable population to be victimised by the ''Blood Omen'' era. But he has stated that the process of doing so is difficult, time-consuming and tiring. He's not going to be able to whip up an army in the time it'd take the Sarafan to restructure their leadership. Even the few he could create would be fledglings, unlikely to handle the army that already managed to wipe out the vampire's best. Besides, they didn't lose all their leadership; Moebius is still around.

** The Reaver may grant the ability to see the Elder God but the Elder God still needs to be there to be seen. He manifests in a lot of places but not everywhere and there's no particular indication of his direct involvement in Blood Omen 2. So Vorador likely ''could'' see the Elder God (assuming that was how Kain brought him back) but never actually did.

* This troper is a trained vet who worked for three years at a wildlife shelter in New Mexico, and thus knows enough about bat wings to know that the way Kain ripped the bone structure off of Raziel's wings is simply impossible. The bones in a bat's wing are very fragile, and the skin very tight, even if Kain was able to rip them out in one piece, expect a lot more damage to the wings' surface than seen in game. If a bat breaks the wrong bone in the wrong place, its entire wing can rip in half under its own weight. Even if Kain was able to rip off the entire bone structure in one piece without tearing them, then the wings still wouldn't be in one piece, each section would fall to the ground without the bones connecting them. In short, the most Raziel would have is a very short flap of tissue at the very base of his back.

** It's also possible that it was Kain precision-casting Flay to deprive Raziel of the ability to fly (because that would make chucking him into the water... difficult), but not destroy the wings - so that they would remain as a mockery of his fate and reminder of his failure.

* How, just '''how''' is the Soul Reaver possible to exist in the original timeline? [[@/{{Albertosaurus}} This troper]] put together an [[http://members.multimania.nl/matthijs_alberts/LokTimeline_web.htm entire multi-timeline for the series]] and the original timeline is causing problems. By manipulating Kain to kill William the Just, Moebius changed the timeline to incite a vampire genocide, making vampires extinct except for Kain, leaving him with two bad options (Although it later turns out that there is an [[TakeAThirdOption Edge Of The Coin]], of course). Fine. So Kain refuses the sacrifice and founds an empire. ''But did his empire exist in the original timeline?'' If it did not, then how is the Soul Reaver created, since to become the ''Soul'' Reaver, the reaver needs to absorb the wraith Raziel. But if it did already exist, then why was it necessary to change history in the first place? And how would it have come into existence anyway? And why does Kain retain his memories of the original timeline if other paradoxes change his memories, like at the end of ''Soul Reaver 2''?

* Here's the big issue. Hylden General/Sarafan Lord is the same character who was possessing Mortainus/Janos in Defiance. He was able to set his plans into motion by manipulating Raziel into tearing the heart of darkness out of the Scion of Balance-- Kain-- and putting it back into Janos. He presumably knew that Kain was the Scion(He knew Mortainus put the heart into a vampire he believed to be the scion, which was Kain), and he believed that by tearing the heart out of the Elder Kain, Raziel had killed him. So, while leading his army against the Younger Kain's vampire army, how is it that he thought he could actually win? Kain has to survive to become the elder Kain that Raziel takes the heart from, which is how his plan gets put into motion. For Kain to survive, that means the Hylden General can't kill the younger version. Yet he has complete confidence his plan will succeed inspite of coming into conflict with Young Kain, he is surprised that Young Kain survived their first battle, and has complete confidence he'll kill Kain in their final showdown.

*** They did indeed have a counter measure for the younger Kain: The Nexus Stone. When Kain battles the Sarafan that the Hylden have revived they are defeated and Kain is thought to be dead while having the Soul Reaver taken from him. With that in hand there would be no way for Kain to do any of the timeline chicanery that he ever gets up to. As they were stuck in an extradimensional prison they are likely aware of only the original timeline where Kain takes over the world, creates Raziel and then dies in the future. So by taking the Soul Reaver, wiping out the vampires and then preparing to wipe out all life on the planet they likely figured they had all their bases covered.

* The afterlife in ''VideoGame/LegacyOfKain'' is a pretty bleak place, isn't it? The Elder God claims he spins souls in the Wheel of Fate so that they can be reborn, but it is implied that he is just hungry. So either you get eaten by a Sluagh or an agent of the Elder God, or you stay out of their grasp, but then you'll be in the spectral realm forever. Just what is gained by getting rid of the Elder God?

** The thing of it is we don't actually know what Nosgoth's afterlife is supposed to be like. We have WordOfGod that the Elder God is not a god but a parasite feeding on Nosgoth. As such his Wheel isn't the natural state of the afterlife. Maybe the Spectral Realm was originally a paradise that you spent some time in before returning to life with full memories of your time there or even stayed there forever and new souls were created by some means. Maybe it was even worse than it is now. There do seem to be other options for the dead than the Wheel, such as the hell-like place Kain is sent to a couple of times. We don't know and we can't, 'cos none of the time traveling goes back far enough to see Nosgoth before the Elder God began sucking on it. We never go further than the Sarafan age and the Elder God started out (or possibly arrived from...elsewhere) long before the Pillars were raised. As such whether the afterlife was better/could be better again is impossible to say.

* Here's a thought, Raziel. You were told to kill off your brothers. Why not raise up an army of humans and take them over? Here's a better thought: Don't. Do. Anything. Just go back to your clan territory and hold up in there because, every move you make? Makes everything WORSE.

*** No, you're actually wrong- they DO rally behind you in the game. If you leave humans alone- as in, try to avoid even defending yourself-, they will eventually stop attacking you, and in the long-term the ones in the human citadel will even fall to their knees in worship of you (the first human you meet- the crossbow guy out near Melchiahs place- just doesn't shoot you). As far as they are concerned you are the guy that kills vampires and eats their souls, and if you're not attacking them that makes you awesome. They'll be so devoted that eventually you'll be able to suck their souls without them fighting back, and as long as that's the only way you attack them you can eventually even suck so much soul juice to kill them with no retaliation; you could freely massacre the whole city and they will STILL love you. So yes, they are frightened of you AT FIRST, but it is totally possible to win them over. In reality then the only reason you can't raise up an army of humans is a) Raziel doesn't see the need to, and b) the game doesn't give you that option.

* Raziel was executed for surpassing Kain in evolution, yet Rahab evolved immunity to water and gets to live. The dialog when Raziel meets him in the drowned abbey suggests that he's not on bad terms with Kain. Is the sunlight vulnerability such a hindrance that Kain overlooked Rahab surpassing him?

** It wasn't that Raziel evolved something "better" than Kain, it's that he evolved ''before'' Kain. Vampire evolution doesn't happen gradually; they enter a hibernation every few decades or centuries, and come out of it with a new gift. They do this in order; Kain first, then Raz, so on and so forth, presumably absent their control. Raz happened to lapse into the state of change before Kain did, and that was the problem, even though it was mainly an excuse.

* Hang on. If a new guardian is born when the old one dies, and Kain is assassinated at the beginning of ''Blood Omen'', where's the next guardian?

*** WordOfGod from Amy Hennig states that the Pillars did not call new guardians because they were not capable of it. When they were corrupted, they could not call new guardians and would not be able to unless and until Kain purified them again by wiping out the Circle of Nine. Obviously, when he let them fall, no guardians could be called at all.

* Raziel does his time-hopping thing and finds Ariel by the pillars. Raziel then states "the pillars were subverted by dark forces invited by the guardians themselves". When did he figure this out? Sure Moebius has that thing going with the Elder God, but that deal being the cause seems little more than speculation at that time.
** Kain probably told him something about it over the couple thousand years that Raz was his right hand man. Kain probably didn't mean the Elder God, but that...''thing'' that possessed Mortanius at the end of the first game.

* Kain going through the Oracle's(Elder God's) time portal in Defiance is an annoying example of San Dimas Time that annoys the hell out of me. Kain could sit around and wait five hundred years and stop Raziel before he ever got to Avernus. Failing that, Kain's demonstrated that he can move around the timeline easily enough, as he did in Soul Reaver 2.

*** Elder God's as big of a fatalist as Kain is. He needs to let things play their course along the wheel. Also, it isn't just about Raziel killing Kain; he needs Kain in the future so Raziel gets absorbed into the reaver.

* Ignoring MaleGaze, [[{{Stripperiffic}} the women's outfits]] annoy the hell out of me. I can understand the vampires, but what about the humans? The lack of coverage doesn't offer much protection from attackers or [[ExposedToTheElements the cold]], and [[DoubleStandard the men are generally covered up.]] (Edited for possible WildMassGuessing.)

** In all fairness the women Moebius' mercenary army, the only human combat organization to have lots of female members, do dress perfectly sensibly in ''Soul Reaver 2'' and ''Defiance.'' The leather is a bit form-fitting but then the same can be said of the men's outfits.

* For people who care so much about the cycle of life, death and rebirth, the ancient vampires sure have a lot of undead guarding their forges in ''Soul Reaver 2'', which clearly have souls. Apparently corrected in ''Defiance'', where their [[RagnarokProofing Ragnarok Proof]] security is handled by golems.

* Why, in Soul Reaver 2, does Raziel rush to get the Fire Reaver, open the special door, zoom to Janos's aid, then stand there for 15 seconds while Janos gets his heart ripped out?

** Well, I thought he was shocked by the sight - Janos on the table with his chest sliced open, and the one doing the slicing was himself. It would make me stop myself. Also, they had Moebius' staff with them - Raziel is badass but not really that badass to take several trained vampire killers with his claws alone. Remember that these were the people buried along with Malek himself, not just random footsoldier #5036 who Raz had taken on in dozens already. And even they can give him a run for his money. Not to mention that the fights at the end demonstrated just ''how'' hardy the top Sarafan were.