History Headscratchers / LegacyofKain

* At the end of Soul Reaver 2 [[spoiler: after Raziel kills his Sarafan self, thus ensuring his revival as a vampire, Kain comes along and prevents him from being absorbed from the reaver. However, if Raziel's wraith blade is effectively himself after being consumed by the physical reaver then released into him when the reaver was shattered on him, then wouldn't that mean that he would no longer have the wraith blade as he was never consumed by the blade in the first place, and further more, the Kain that saved Raziel apparently took the reaver with him afterward, which means past Kain wouldn't have the reaver at all, thus it wouldn't have broken against Raziel. So, how is it that Raziel keeps his wraith blade despite the events occurring that would prevent him from having it...]] Oh no I've gone cross-eyed.

*** Wasn't the wraith Raziel's soul different from human Raziel's soul though? It was bound up by the portion of Kain's soul that had resurrected him. I think THAT is where the paradox lies. When Kain attempted to strike down Raziel, the Blood Reaver couldn't contend with whatever magics Kain had used to include his own soul in binding Raziel's for resurrection. I would assume as the Blood Reaver attempted to connect with Raziel's physical form to drain his blood (as it would blindly and mechanically do) it encountered an aspect of it's weilder's essence and THEN therefore shattered. On a personal note, I have always been of a mind that the Reaver's spectral existence was it's echo of residual soul energy that it had built up during it's existence, and it simply RESONATED with Raziel's threadbare existence energies and did not dissapate as it might have if simply shattered physically. To address paradox identified by OP, I think Raziel is the only one to speak that the wraith blade was his own soul by his own actions, and then everybody else jumps on, so, no paradox, not Raziel's soul on the main tip. In defense of further confusions, I don't think Kain's method of vampire creating was common knowledge at the time. AW! And to think, what if, by residual build up, the Blood Reaver was destined to become a Soul Reaver ANYWAY!?!?! What if no one could risk simply breaking the thing, and the residual energies becoming some random issue? By this thinking I pose Raziel was intended to guard, weild, hone, and otherwise contain the volatile magics to prevent such catastrophe and anomaly.

* Why, in Defiance, after centuries of a deadlock, did the Elder God just up and allow Raziel to freely move about the underworld after jumping through some minor hoops? Sure, he tried to stop Raziel from leaving, and put a stop to simple, clean, conduits to the material realm, but if I were in his position I'd have let Raziel rot there for a few more years.

*** Exactly. The Elder Gods was annoyed that Raziel escaped while still defying him, hence the BigNo, as Raziel under his control would have been preferable, but he has justified faith in his and his servants' ability to manipulate Raziel into doing what he wants anyway.

* How exactly do the metaphysics in the Spectral Realm work? Soul Reaver 1 already established that when a person travels into the Spectral Realm, time becomes frozen from their perspective, and their surroundings become non-mutable (for example, Raziel could use falling rocks as stepping stones, but not open doors). Is the Spectral Realm the same for every one of its inhabitants? Does it suddenly change to accommodate objects moving in the Material Realm whenever Raziel passes through? And how does the Spectral Realm suddenly become much less static in Defiance, where the Elder God clearly destroys some architecture in the Spectral Realm while trying to keep Raziel from escaping?

*** This (the stuff with EG existing in both worlds) plus EG is shown to at least have ''some'' (I'd say vast) power over time, death and who knows what else. He could simply swipe his tentacles in the physical world and fast forward the time a bit. Then again, who knows how the spirit world reacts to sudden changes made in the physical world.

* Why does Kain maintain the same appearance he had when Raziel was cast into the Abyss when Raziel returns? The game specifically states that Kain is evolving just like his lieutenants (indeed, up until Raziel gained wings, he was changing faster than any of them); why was Kain not some sort of gigantic monstrosity like the others by the time Raziel got back?

** Kain is the same in the cutscene at the beginning of Soul Reaver as he is centuries later when Raziel came back while his lieutenants degenerated into monstrous forms because Kain is a different kind of vampire than they are. Kain was created using the Heart of Darkness, thus is of the same line of vampires as Vorador, who also retain their human forms for the most part (despite the fact that Vorador is apparently several millennia old) and have only a slight weakness to sunlight, but can still be killed by conventional means. Kain's lieutenants on the other hand were created by a different process that Kain probably just made up on the spot, as such they are a very different type of vampire that can only be killed in a few particular ways and degenerate into disgusting creatures after a thousand years or so. In short, Kain's lieutenants eventually became monstrosities because they're bad copies of the kind of vampire Kain is, while Kain is the perfect specimen.

[[folder: Blood/Wraith/Soul Reaver Paradox]]

* For between Blood Omen 1 and Blood Omen 2 it was probably for the sake of fashion, so he wouldn't stand out hundreds of years later. Plus he was a tougher and more experienced vampire. Also [[spoiler]] In Blood Omen 2 he was picking up at the start of the new timeline after being comatose after losing to the Sarafan Lord, so someone else probably changed him from out of his battle attire [[/folder]]

* For between Blood Omen 1 and Blood Omen 2 it was probably for the sake of fashion, so he wouldn't stand out hundreds of years later. Plus he was a tougher and more experienced vampire. Also [[spoiler]] In Blood Omen 2 he was picking up at the start of the new timeline after being comatose after losing to the Sarafan Lord, so someone else probably changed him from out of his battle attire [[/spoiler]]

* If Kain doesn't want to sacrifice himself to the Pillars because he's the last vampire, why doesn't he just bite someone and ''then'' sacrifice himself?

** Also, it's suggested that the decision kind of had to be made right there on the spot. I somehow doubt he could have just told Ariel, "Hang on a minute, let me go turn a couple people and then I'll be back to off myself", even if he could pass on his vampirism.

* And, for the record, why did Kain change his outfit between Blood Omen and Soul Reaver? I mean, sure, it looks incredibly badass, but how practical is it? One of the ways to truly kill vampires is to impale them, so wouldn't it be significantly harder to impale Kain if he had kept his full armour than how he is now with about 95% of his chest bare?

* Of all the things that decayed when Raziel was thrown into the abyss (his jaw, hands and feet, much of his torso) his ''hair'' remains intact.

*** This is rather supported by ''Defiance,'' where Raziel can only enter the physical realm by possessing corpses and changing them to look like his form and sure enough he seems able to turn part of the corpse into his scarf. Come to that his scarf vanishes like the rest of him when he's drawn into the Reaver so I think we can assume that it's part of him at this point.
* In Soul Reaver 2 Raziel seemed to have been much more aware of his path and the fate of Nosgoth. He seemed to have reached a level of understanding and wisdom that was practical and deep. He even made some interestingly correct assumptions about the collapse of the Pillars. And yet in Defiance he acts impulsively and is heedless in many occasions, even his correct assumptions about the collapse of the Pillars were no longer apart of his speech. What's with the change?
** He's scared out of his mind: his destiny is to play an endless cycle of deaths and resurrections, ad infinitum, and being a tool in all of his many forms. Being born a human and growing up to be a fanatic, even killing his future savior in his crusade; being killed by his wraith self; being resurrected as a vampire in some twisted parody of his former faith; serving Kain for a thousand years, then be executed for growing wings; being reborn as a wraith who can't die and must feed on souls and who finds a weapon that suits his new form ''perfectly''; chase after Kain, only to find out Kain is actually the good guy; going out to see his former self kill the one person who can make sense of it all, chasing him down and killing him, perpetuating the cycle, and finally finding out that his ultimate destiny is to be locked into a weapon for another few thousand years, only to be freed by and latch onto his wraith self, riding along again to see how badly he screwed up the first time, and ''finally'' becoming so insane in that new form that he's actually ''instrumental'' in his own cyclical fate. Talk about a fate worse than death. In ''Defiance'', his main motivation is to run like hell from the weapon that would become his prison and find a way to break the cycle. I think even ''he's'' done waxing poetic about the Pillars at that point.

* So, OP here, if I'm wrong about the wraith blade and it IS indeed Raziel, I have to fall back on the lore of the Blood Reaver's forging by Voradorand take a few liberties. Being as how Vorador is tasked with the forging of the Blood Reaver by the Ancients as a human, it can be reasonably inferred that Vorador forged it with the aid of the magic of the Ancients. It is similarly likely that the magic would be akin to that of the pillars as they are both made to identify (by placement, ie pillars standing/specific location probably and, blade striking intended drainee) and contain a specific element (Hylden or blood) in the ordered realm. Further, Ancient's magic is probably totally soul oriented, thereby supporting my opinion that the Blood Reaver would, without much doubt, evntually become the Soul Reaver. In this respect, again, it can be likely assumed that as Kain trained with his lieutenants, he may have noticed the affinity that the blade took, to Raziel in particular, and, having a working knowledge of soul manipulation, may have noticed it accumulating or resonating more purely in combative pratice against him. This, too, can be attributed to the the fact that Raziel's evolution was most like the original Ancient's and the blade matched to this at it's basic level. I feel that if the wraith blade is, in entirety, Raziel's soul, it is whatever soul material that was knocked loose in his creation process that resonated to what lingered in the spectral realm when the Blood Reaver was shattered. In addition, Raziel's new form possessed it's own, new, type of soul, as, obviously, the Blood Reaver can take it. This was likely because his new form of soul was undeniable to the Blood Reaver in the presence of it's evolved, yet familiar, future capabilities. I really don't think it was Raziel's, full unadulterated, soul from a different time being recognized like he thought.

** The Reaver may grant the ability to see the Elder God but the Elder God still needs to be there to be seen. He manifests in a lot of places but not everywhere and there's no particular indication of his direct involvement in Blood Omen 2. So Vorador likely ''could'' see the Elder God but never ''did.''

*** I believe it's this. Kain did say in [=SR2=] that he only needs to pass the time until Raziel fulfils his destiny (or something along these lines), so I guess, when vampire Raz grew wings, Kain threw him in the Abyss and went forward in time (probably "stopping" every decade or so to give out some commands to his lieutenants) to meet him when he comes back. Either that, or Kain's evolution was not physical but mental (or soul or something).

*** What makes sense? The fact that the blade didn't go berserk when Raziel entered by choice in the end of Defiance instead of resisting like he did in Soul Reaver 2? It may be true. But still doesnt explain why the "sense of displacement and distortion" that its normally associated with paradox by having two Soul Reavers together doesn't appear in the Defiance bit in the end. After all, you can't say that it didn't happen because it was meant to happen anyway because guess what? That time when Raziel was supposed to kill Kain in William's Chapel and the imprisonment of Raziel in the Reaver later on were ALSO meant to happen as the timeline wanted.......but they didn't happen. Yet somehow the distortion is missing in Defiance, developers being lazy much?

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EG is shown to constantly manipulate everyone, who is so much within six degrees of separation with him, for his own petty egoistic gluttonous ends. And doesn't particularly care about the rest of the world, as long as people keep dieing.

** The thing of it is we don't actually know what Nosgoth's afterlife is supposed to be like. We have WordOfGod that the Elder God is not a god but a parasite feeding on Nosgoth. As such his Wheel isn't the natural state of the afterlife. Maybe the Spectral Realm was originally a paradise that you spent some time in before returning to life with full memories of your time there or even stayed there forever and new souls were created by some means. Maybe it was even worse than it is now. There do seem to be other options for the dead than the Wheel, such as the hell-like place Kain is sent to a couple of times. We don't know and we can't, 'cos none of the time travelling goes back far enough to see Nosgoth before the Elder God began sucking on it. We never go further than the Sarafan age and the Elder God started out (or possibly arrived from...elsewhere) long before the Pillars were raised. As such whether the afterlife was better/could be better again is impossible to say.

*** I am actually surpriced that the Elder God didnt shut down the portal as soon Kain leaped into that pool of water WITH the portal on top. It would have been actually pretty funny seeing the Elder God doing PSYCH! With Kain in mid air. Falling that he could just let him be trapped in the time wormhole closing both sides of the portals and problem solved

** In all fairness the women Moebius' mercenary army, the only human combat organisation to have lots of female members, do dress perfectly sensibly in ''Soul Reaver 2'' and ''Defiance.'' The leather is a bit form-fitting but then the same can be said of the men's outfits.

** Actually i believe that they are more like Well Intensioned Extremists if we consider that the wiping of all living creatures in Nosgoth as a safe way to ensure that the Elder God died and doesnt manipulate anyone forever. The problem with this idea is that i dont know how the Hylden knew that the Elder God isnt a god per se but a creature acting like one to the Ancient Vampires or how they do EVEN know if this plan is going to work. Sure, all creatures will be dead but i am sure that after many milenias the world eventually will have life again or at least the Hylden will become the dominant race that after a bunch of time they will evolve in different races that will replenish the planet.

* Why Kain or Raziel they never try to meet their younger selves? wont that create a paradox they need? even if that doesnt work it would be nice to see that. To see how the younger Kain would even react and to see how several acts of this kind actually serves to reinforce the fact that destiny isnt going to give in so easily.

* Why the Elder God doesnt try to brainwash Raziel during the many times he could do it? i mean, i know that calling it a god and being able to do such thing is debatable but he HAS some non human minions that return souls to the wheel and you did think that he would do something like that on Raziel

* Just what was the final boss in Blood Omen meant to be, we know that he was retconed into being the Hylden Lord but when Blood Omen was just a stand alone game, what was he, just a random demon messing with the world for laughs? He just turns up after Mortanius dies and reveals he was behind it all but why, why did he need to posses Mortanius, what was his motive and was there any foreshadowing about him at all? I heard that originally Mortanius was the villain and did everything himself and would have been the final boss so why did they add a random demon to appear at the end? It only makes sense now because of the other games and him being written as the Hylden Lord but what was it originally?

** The pillars need to be controlled by vampires because humans are not able to keep them working as well as they should, that's why they were able to be brought down eventually. Vampires are also needed to keep out the Hylden because they want to destroy all life that isn't hylden. The war between them caused so much damage that the pillars are needed to give life to nosgoth as well as keeping the hylden from returning, maybe the Hylden were once good, turning evil due to the war that the vampires started thanks to the elder god but as of now, the best thing for nosgoth is no more Hylden, more vampires and peace betweeen vampires and humans.

*** they were apes that the hylden advanced for experiments, the vampires then took pity and tried to live in peace with them, only taking a few to be guardiands, then elder god tricks them into killing off the vampiers making them vunerable again to the hylden returning and dont even bother to find out whats going on or think for themselves, rather just follow mobius or a hylden possesed puppet. if they had just trusted the vampires they would have been best off, now thay are getting scrwed from all sides and the only vampires left know nothing of the ancient vampires role in nosgoth and have been turned into another enemy for humans due to their mistreatment and being hunted.

*** The vampires treated humans fairly and was at peace with them until they were cursed with bloodlust, even then they tried to keep it under control, and only infected humans to replace them as guardians. its just the elder god tricked them into thinking that they needed to rise up and kill them all just so he could keep eating souls, vampires were never the plauge on mankind that they thought they were but after most of them were killed and the only ones around are younger and know nothing about their ancient history and live in a world where they are hunted and so would be agresive to humans.
*** Humanity is incapable of governing the pillars, their minds are too easily manipulated. Hylden managed to control Mortanius to kill Ariel and cause the corruption of the pillars. That is the reason why humans are unsuitable to be guardians. Once pillars were shattered, due to Kain's refusal to sacrifice himself, they could even exert control over Janos. Humans are like humans of old tales, easily controlled by more powerful forces, while vampires are quite more resilient to such powers. If pillars were pristine and vampires were guarding them Hylden could at best just control some random shmuck.
*** It's probably also worth pointing out that Raziel was much more likely condmening ''why and how'' the Sarafan do what they do, rather than condemning ''what'' they do. Vampires preying upon humans need to be stopped, sure, no argument there. But the Sarafan are fanatics who take an inordinate ''joy'' in the slaughter of the vampires. They are not pious men doing what needs to be done in the name of justice and righteousness and the sanctity and preservation of life. They are, plain and simple, violent fanatics who have risen to the top of the one organization in their lifetimes that gives them the greatest license to indulge in their violence and fanaticism. From Raziel's own description, the highest-ranking members of the Sarafan brotherhood (himself included) were as fanatically loyal to Kain as they had been to the Sarafan cause. They would always serve someone who could give them power and influence (and an opportunity for wanton and unchecked violence) with the utmost devotion. In the age of the Sarafan, it was the Sarafan brotherhood. In the age of Kain's empire, it was Kain. There was otherwise no difference in personality between their human selves and their vampire selves. Or to put it another way: Do you sincerely believe that, should they have succeeded in wiping out the vampires completely, they would have gone on to live normal lives in peace and harmony? Or does it seem more likely, from what we see of them even as humans in ''Soul Reaver 2'', that they would have then turned their attention to some other enemy that needed to be violently wiped out? Smart money is on the latter, and that is manifestly ''not'' "only" fighting against a predatory species. The vampires, at least, have the excuse of operating under a curse they have no idea how to break. Although many of the Ancient Vampires do seem to have turned evil (or to have done things that must have seemed necessarily evil to them, such as making vampires out of humans in order to serve the Pillars), a large number committed suicide in horror once they understood what they had become (sterile, requiring blood to survive, and utterly cut off from their god; and please remember on that last point that they were unaware just how much of a blessing that would have been). We don't know how many of them became evil and how many offed themselves in despair, but the latter must have been a large number, judging by the fact that it was remarked upon in the murals as a major historical event. This indicates that a significant number of them were decent enough to hate being what they were, and were therefore not just parasites.
* The reason the hylden were able to attack so directly was because humans were too weak to keep the seal, if vampires were still guarding they would not have even managed that let alone getting completley free later on. the trouble is that humans are much younger than the other races of nosgoth and just follow whoever tricks them first. You claim things were going fine until the hylden started their plot? well thats the point, the fact that the hylden returned shows how badly humans screwed up, vampires are needed to keep the hylden out and the humans were fucking things up for them and in the long run for themselves.

** We could assume that normal humans in Nosgoth are actually quite a lot tougher than real life humans. Well, in reality, I think the answer is that the game wouldn't have been challenging otherwise, but whatever.\\
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It's not like the humans are really shown as ''weak'' even if unintentionally. Probably the worst examples come from Blood Omen 2 where Kain was able to ''impale a lowly peasant to the hilt of his sword, then throw them on the ground and they wouldn't as much as limp''. Also, literally putting a blade ''through somebody's brain'' wouldn't kill them. But [=BO2=] was also...umm, not that realistic in many other respects - it is, frankly, a bit surprising that decapitating somebody isn't OnlyAFleshWound. In [=SR2=] we see that the Reaver blade, which is the ultimate weapon that the Ancients devised (well, against the Hylden, but still) isn't that effective against people - you really have to give those Sarafan a very good beating until they go down. And all the while their very blood is being sucked right out of their veins. Kain also uses the same blade throughout Defiance and humans don't seem to be ''that'' bothered that they are being hit with a mysterious sword that empties their veins with each strike. Even when the sword starts causing them to be on fire they seem to take it in stride (all things considering, that is). Don't know about you but I'd certainly look a little more hurt if somebody hits me with a giant sword, my blood escapes through the wound and I am also set ablaze afterwards. Just seems like something that would hurt a bit more than depicted in Defiance. Not to mention that Kain himself is not a pushover, either - he is literally more than a thousand years old and also literally inhumanly strong. I think any normal human shouldn't really survive a hit from him regardless of whether Kain is using a sword which is very, very good at killing or not.\\
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** Obviously Vorador made more, hence why there's a viable population to be victimised by the ''Blood Omen'' era. But he has stated that the process of doing so is difficult, time-consuming and tiring. He's not going to be able to whip up an army in the time it'd take the Sarafan to restructure their leadership. Even the few he could create would be fledgelings, unlikely to handle the army that already managed to wipe out the vampire's best. Besides, they didn't lose all their leadership; Moebius is still around.
* I think I have both an answer and a question regarding how [[spoiler: Vorador is alive in ''Blood Omen 2'' when he should've been executed in the first ''Blood Omen'' game.]] I'll start with the answer first: do you know that in ''Defiance'', Raziel was able to [[spoiler:ressurect Janos Audron by using his Wraith Blade to mend his wounds?]] So, this must have been done in the same manner to [[spoiler:ressurect Vorador by the future Kain in ''Defiance'' with the use of his Soul Reaver.]] Afterwards, the future Kain must have told Vorador to aid the past Kain in the events of ''Blood Omen 2'', thus creating a BootstrapParadox. But here's this catch: the future Kain's Soul Reaver has been made into the Purified Reaver in the end of ''Defiance'', meaning that anyone that has been healed by the Purified Reaver is granted the ability to [[spoiler: see the [[EldritchAbomination Elder God]].]] So was Vorador able to [[spoiler:see the Elder God during the events of ''Blood Omen 2''?]] If so, why hasn't he mention any of this to the past Kain?

* I think I have both an answer and a question regarding how [[spoiler: Vorador is alive in ''Blood Omen 2'' when he should've been executed in the first ''Blood Omen'' game.]] I'll start with the answer first: do you know that in ''Defiance'', Raziel was able to [[spoiler:ressurect Janos Audron by using his Wraith Blade to mend his wounds.]] So, this was done in the same manner to [[spoiler:ressurect Vorador by the future Kain in ''Defiance'' with the use of his Soul Reaver.]] Afterwards, the future Kain must have told Vorador to aid the past Kain in the events of ''Blood Omen 2'', thus creating a BootstrapParadox. But here's this catch: the future Kain's Soul Reaver has been made into the Purified Reaver in the end of ''Defiance'', meaning that anyone that has been healed by the Purified Reaver is granted the ability to [[spoiler: see the [[EldritchAbomination Elder God]].]] So was Vorador able to [[spoiler:see the Elder God during the events of ''Blood Omen 2''?]] If so, why hasn't he mention any of this to the past Kain?

* I think I have both an answer and a question regarding how [[spoiler: Vorador is alive in ''Blood Omen 2'' when he should've been executed in the first ''Blood Omen'' game.]] I'll start with the answer first: do you know that in ''Defiance'', Raziel was able to [[spoiler:ressurect Janos Audron by using his Wraith Blade to mend his wounds.]] So, this was done in the same manner to [[spoiler:ressurect Vorador by the future Kain in ''Defiance'' with the use of his Soul Reaver.]] Afterwards, the future Kain must have told Vorador to aid the past Kain in the events of ''Blood Omen 2'', thus creating a BootstrapParadox. But here's this catch: the future Kain's Soul Reaver has been made into the Purified Reaver in the end of ''Defiance'', meaning that anyone that has been healed by the Purified Reaver is granted the ability to [[spoiler: see the [[EldritchAbomination Elder God]].]] So was Vorador able to [[see the Elder God during the events of ''Blood Omen 2''?]] If so, why hasn't he mention any of this to the past Kain?

*** This is rather supported by ''Defiance,'' where Raziel can only enter the physical realm by possessing corpses and changing them to look like his form and sure enough he seems able to turn part of the corpse into his scarf.

** If it's all a big fake out then they are making a hell of sacrifice for it, since many of them get sucked in by Raziel or the Reaver, destroying their consciousness entirely just to keep Raziel on track to do what he wants to do anyway. On the spirit changing a corpse's shape that doesn't work as an explanation, as most of the corpses the Hylden possess are human in appearance, lacking the Hylden's wings, and some have Ancient style wing bones (as seen on the dead Pillar Guardians) which have npthing to do with the possessing spirit while only a very few have the Hylden style wings. Only Raziel is seen changing the shape of his possessed corpse and in his case the transformation is complete, no longer even looking like a corpse. Well, not more than he usually does.

*** Don't hold back now, tell us what you really think... Since you just had to bring it all up here we go; There are vampires because Vorador made more, Vorador is alive because the older Kain brought him back shortly after the events of ''Defiance,'' the Eternal Prison was built by the Ancients to contain their worst enemies, why wouldn't they put in a way to blow it up if such was required, the guardian is bonkers, of course the Hylden would make something to counter the vampires greatest weapon, the Hylden constructed the machines, they don't care about humans dying and every game has humans survive attacks that should instantly kill them, that's just a feature of the games. Blood Omen 2 is far from perfect and some of this wasn't revealed until later (although that could be said of a lot of plot elements in the series) but it's not as bad as you're making out. As to the Sarafan Lord he's got a flaming head, big whoop. Plenty of important humans have weirder looks in Nosgoth.

** How exactly? The vampires were on the edge of extinction and Vorador was the last really impressive one left. Even taking into account Raziel and Kain's death toll they should still have had the numbers to win./