History Headscratchers / HarryPotterAndTheDeathlyHallowsVoldemortsFinalDuel

12th Aug '16 9:49:38 AM AtticusOmundson
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** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get his bony mitts on a glock? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife'' as that's more abundant than the nearly non-existant guns), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry. His pride would not allow him to do it.

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** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get his bony mitts on a glock? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife'' as that's more abundant than the nearly non-existant guns), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe able to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry. His pride would not allow him to do it.
16th Dec '15 11:22:53 AM Discar
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* OK, truly mind-boggling: ''Deathly Hallows''. Voldemort and Harry Potter square off. Harry spends 10 minutes explaining in minute detail exactly why the Elder Wand doesn't work for Voldemort and why it actually belongs to Harry. Then Voldemort proceeds to use a wand ''that he was just told doesn't work'', one that he has already seen evidence that it doesn't work, to try to kill the one person the wand is ''least'' likely to kill. Um, Voldemort? You clearly noted that Harry didn't have his Phoenix wand, so Priori Incantatem (what an Main/AssPull) wouldn't save him. Why not let Harry's Expelliarmus hit, disarm you of a wand you don't own, draw your Wand of Yew, and put that arrogant bastard in the ground? Oh, and then collect the Elder Wand, which would ''then'' belong to you, from the corpse?

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[[folder:Talking is a Free Action]]
* OK, truly mind-boggling: ''Deathly Hallows''. Voldemort and Harry Potter square off. Harry spends 10 minutes explaining in minute detail exactly why the Elder Wand doesn't work for Voldemort and why it actually belongs to Harry. Then Voldemort proceeds to use a wand ''that he was just told doesn't work'', one that he has already seen evidence that it doesn't work, to try to kill the one person the wand is ''least'' likely to kill. Um, Voldemort? You clearly noted that Harry didn't have his Phoenix wand, so Priori Incantatem (what an Main/AssPull) wouldn't save him. Why not let Harry's Expelliarmus hit, disarm you of a wand you don't own, draw your Wand of Yew, and put that arrogant bastard in the ground? Oh, and then collect the Elder Wand, which would ''then'' belong to you, from the corpse? corpse?



*** In a world where the average wizard has enough disrespect for technology that they don't even use ''pencils and paper'', would you seriously expect one of the greatest Muggle haters of all time to be able to admit that the Muggles came up with a better way of killing people?
*** That, and you honestly would believe that a Shield Charm wouldn't stop a bullet? Or Reducto? Or a spell to slow down the bullets or Transfigure the gun or melt it or Summon it or Disarm it from Voldy?
**** I honestly believe that Harry doesn't know how to slow bullets down, transfigure a gun, or melt it, and that if Voldemort had just pulled it right out and fired then, Harry wouldn't have had TIME to put up a shield charm, which may or may not even ''work'' against a bullet, as it's never been tried that we've seen.
***** If Dolores Umbridge, a woman who is quite terrible at magic, can react quick enough to shield herself from arrows, Harry Potter can stop bullets.
***** Arrows that she knew were coming at around 60 mph versus bullet that you aren't expecting at 1000 mph. Big difference there.
***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get his bony mitts on a glock? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife'' as that's more abundant than the nearly non-existant guns), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry. His pride would not allow him to do it.
**** Wizards and witches can pull off incredible magic instinctively: in that kind of situation facing a non-magical lethal weapon, Harry is likely to have simply unconsciously vanished the bullets, or shielded himself, or turn the bullets into fluffy kittens with the PowerOfLove... you get the point. Also, if Shield Charms can't stop bullets, how the hell can they save you when you fall hundreds of feet? Or stop arrows - when the caster was a wuss who got beaten to a pulp by a few Disarmed, tied up kids? Or utterly overrun the Muggle world? No, this troper thinks prepared, powerful wizard vs Muggle with gun = no contest. Protego beforehand, Expelliarmus during, then Stupefy, and all would be over. Not to mention the "instinctive magic" bit.
**** Wait, how is ''Priori Incantatem'' an AssPull? The wands are brothers, and the wielders are closely connected as well (even sharing each other's souls and flesh in some ways.) The reverse magic makes sense, and it was also established early in the series, not whipped out in the last chapter of the last book.
**** It was an AssPull when it was whipped out of nowhere near the end of the ''fourth'' book, which I believe is what the above troper was referring to. Yes, the ''deliberate'' form of P.I. was introduced earlier in book four, but it has very little connection with the whole "brother wands don't work against each other", which had ''no set-up whatever''.
***** It was more a matter of foreshadowing that was built up from the first book when Olivander comments on the importance of Harry having a brother wand to Voldemort. In the same fourth book, he shows up again to remind us of this importance. It wasn't an AssPull, it was just subtle, and it brought about a very uncommon instance of magic that no one would have mentioned due to the fact that Voldemort was "dead" and his wand was gone.

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*** ** In a world where the average wizard has enough disrespect for technology that they don't even use ''pencils and paper'', would you seriously expect one of the greatest Muggle haters of all time to be able to admit that the Muggles came up with a better way of killing people?
*** ** That, and you honestly would believe that a Shield Charm wouldn't stop a bullet? Or Reducto? Or a spell to slow down the bullets or Transfigure the gun or melt it or Summon it or Disarm it from Voldy?
**** ** I honestly believe that Harry doesn't know how to slow bullets down, transfigure a gun, or melt it, and that if Voldemort had just pulled it right out and fired then, Harry wouldn't have had TIME to put up a shield charm, which may or may not even ''work'' against a bullet, as it's never been tried that we've seen.
*****
seen.
**
If Dolores Umbridge, a woman who is quite terrible at magic, can react quick enough to shield herself from arrows, Harry Potter can stop bullets.
***** ** Arrows that she knew were coming at around 60 mph versus bullet that you aren't expecting at 1000 mph. Big difference there.
***** ** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get his bony mitts on a glock? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife'' as that's more abundant than the nearly non-existant guns), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry. His pride would not allow him to do it.
**** ** Wizards and witches can pull off incredible magic instinctively: in that kind of situation facing a non-magical lethal weapon, Harry is likely to have simply unconsciously vanished the bullets, or shielded himself, or turn the bullets into fluffy kittens with the PowerOfLove... you get the point. Also, if Shield Charms can't stop bullets, how the hell can they save you when you fall hundreds of feet? Or stop arrows - when the caster was a wuss who got beaten to a pulp by a few Disarmed, tied up kids? Or utterly overrun the Muggle world? No, this troper thinks prepared, powerful wizard vs Muggle with gun = no contest. Protego beforehand, Expelliarmus during, then Stupefy, and all would be over. Not to mention the "instinctive magic" bit.
**** ** Wait, how is ''Priori Incantatem'' an AssPull? The wands are brothers, and the wielders are closely connected as well (even sharing each other's souls and flesh in some ways.) The reverse magic makes sense, and it was also established early in the series, not whipped out in the last chapter of the last book.
**** ** It was an AssPull when it was whipped out of nowhere near the end of the ''fourth'' book, which I believe is what the above troper was referring to. Yes, the ''deliberate'' form of P.I. was introduced earlier in book four, but it has very little connection with the whole "brother wands don't work against each other", which had ''no set-up whatever''.
***** ** It was more a matter of foreshadowing that was built up from the first book when Olivander comments on the importance of Harry having a brother wand to Voldemort. In the same fourth book, he shows up again to remind us of this importance. It wasn't an AssPull, it was just subtle, and it brought about a very uncommon instance of magic that no one would have mentioned due to the fact that Voldemort was "dead" and his wand was gone.



*** But in the time it takes for Harry to actually catch the Elder Wand (Expelliarmus is not equivalent to Accio Wand; it just knocks the wand out of their hands. Among other things), Voldemort can be drawing his Yew wand. And ''Avada Kadevra'' can't be stopped by normal magical means, so as long as Harry's distracted by trying to catch the Elder Wand in mid-flight, he won't notice the Death Curse until it's too late for him to find cover. Granted, even if Voldemort pulled this off, I guarantee that no less than 3 ''Avada Kadevra''s would nail him from the surrounding crowd (Neville, Ron, and Ginny) before he had too much time to gloat.
**** What I think a lot of you are forgetting is that Harry can't (well, shouldn't) be able to die at this point. Remember how Harry was a Horcrux for Voldie? Well, Voldie was a Horcrux for Harry too. That's why Harry was able to come back. But Voldie hadn't died since becoming Harry's Horcrux, so even if Harry had been hit with another Avada Kadevra, he'd probably been able to come back. But that's not the point. The point is that Voldie is a vain S.O.B that has the market cornered on the whole God Complex front, so why would he believe some brat that's telling him HIS wand isn't his?
***** Wait, Voldemort wasn't "killed" at the same time Harry was with the whole train station bit? The book mentions Voldemort getting up from the ground, but let's assume he was just stunned. If he operated like Harry's Horcrux, why didn't he just get up and dust himself off after that first AK rebound? Does the Power of Love just work in reverse of what happened when Harry died, and kill the host instead of its own little inserted fragment?
****** The difference is that Harry was a Horcrux because a piece of Voldemort's soul was "blasted off" and "attached" itself to him, but what Voldemort did when he resurrected himself was to make Harry's blood part of the potion. In other words, the blood and Lily's PowerOfLove sacrifice were made ''a part of Voldemort'', spread throughout his whole body. Killing Harry destroyed the Horcrux and its piece of soul. But there was no way to get rid of Lily's protection in Voldemort without him dying and staying dead. Or alternatively, when he blasted Harry, Voldemort did die temporarily and lost Lily's protection in the process. Or Harry dying for everyone at Hogwarts transferred the protection from Voldemort to them.
****** It's a pretty obvious {{Call Back}} to the first book. "Even the greatest wizards don't have an ounce of logic."

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*** ** But in the time it takes for Harry to actually catch the Elder Wand (Expelliarmus is not equivalent to Accio Wand; it just knocks the wand out of their hands. Among other things), Voldemort can be drawing his Yew wand. And ''Avada Kadevra'' can't be stopped by normal magical means, so as long as Harry's distracted by trying to catch the Elder Wand in mid-flight, he won't notice the Death Curse until it's too late for him to find cover. Granted, even if Voldemort pulled this off, I guarantee that no less than 3 ''Avada Kadevra''s would nail him from the surrounding crowd (Neville, Ron, and Ginny) before he had too much time to gloat.
**** ** What I think a lot of you are forgetting is that Harry can't (well, shouldn't) be able to die at this point. Remember how Harry was a Horcrux for Voldie? Well, Voldie was a Horcrux for Harry too. That's why Harry was able to come back. But Voldie hadn't died since becoming Harry's Horcrux, so even if Harry had been hit with another Avada Kadevra, he'd probably been able to come back. But that's not the point. The point is that Voldie is a vain S.O.B that has the market cornered on the whole God Complex front, so why would he believe some brat that's telling him HIS wand isn't his?
***** ** Wait, Voldemort wasn't "killed" at the same time Harry was with the whole train station bit? The book mentions Voldemort getting up from the ground, but let's assume he was just stunned. If he operated like Harry's Horcrux, why didn't he just get up and dust himself off after that first AK rebound? Does the Power of Love just work in reverse of what happened when Harry died, and kill the host instead of its own little inserted fragment?
****** ** The difference is that Harry was a Horcrux because a piece of Voldemort's soul was "blasted off" and "attached" itself to him, but what Voldemort did when he resurrected himself was to make Harry's blood part of the potion. In other words, the blood and Lily's PowerOfLove sacrifice were made ''a part of Voldemort'', spread throughout his whole body. Killing Harry destroyed the Horcrux and its piece of soul. But there was no way to get rid of Lily's protection in Voldemort without him dying and staying dead. Or alternatively, when he blasted Harry, Voldemort did die temporarily and lost Lily's protection in the process. Or Harry dying for everyone at Hogwarts transferred the protection from Voldemort to them.
****** ** It's a pretty obvious {{Call Back}} to the first book. "Even the greatest wizards don't have an ounce of logic."



*** I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Harry say something like "It all comes down to whether or not the Elder Wand knows I disarmed another wand from its last master?" when explaining things to Voldemort? So even if Voldemort believed what Harry was saying, perhaps he was willing to take the chance on trying anyway.
*** This proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that Voldemort is the reincarnation of the [[PrinceOfSpace Phantom of Krankor]]. And Harry himself is the Prince of Space.
*** And as for him testing a weaker spell on him first, he couldn't do that. At this point, he would rather kill people than simply move around them. He is so accustomed to using AK that he can't think of using any other spell in battle.

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*** ** I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Harry say something like "It all comes down to whether or not the Elder Wand knows I disarmed another wand from its last master?" when explaining things to Voldemort? So even if Voldemort believed what Harry was saying, perhaps he was willing to take the chance on trying anyway.
*** ** This proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that Voldemort is the reincarnation of the [[PrinceOfSpace Phantom of Krankor]]. And Harry himself is the Prince of Space.
*** ** And as for him testing a weaker spell on him first, he couldn't do that. At this point, he would rather kill people than simply move around them. He is so accustomed to using AK that he can't think of using any other spell in battle.



*** Although, the reason his Crucio didn't work on Harry is because he was using the Elder Wand, not because Harry was under his own love protection, so Voldemort could at least have killed Harry with his old wand. Of course, after that he would pretty much be totally screwed.

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*** ** Although, the reason his Crucio didn't work on Harry is because he was using the Elder Wand, not because Harry was under his own love protection, so Voldemort could at least have killed Harry with his old wand. Of course, after that he would pretty much be totally screwed.



*** Or it's just the opposite: Voldemort's so caught up in the notion that ''real'' power means the power to utterly destroy one's enemies that he flat-out doesn't ''believe'' Harry's InfoDump. He can't accept that "defeating" someone, by the Elder Wand's standards, can be as simple as knocking a wand from their hand and then leaving them unharmed, so he doesn't believe that Draco's disarming Dumbledore or Harry's disarming Draco could have counted.

to:

*** ** Or it's just the opposite: Voldemort's so caught up in the notion that ''real'' power means the power to utterly destroy one's enemies that he flat-out doesn't ''believe'' Harry's InfoDump. He can't accept that "defeating" someone, by the Elder Wand's standards, can be as simple as knocking a wand from their hand and then leaving them unharmed, so he doesn't believe that Draco's disarming Dumbledore or Harry's disarming Draco could have counted.
counted.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Killing Harry]]



*** Well, did Voldemort looked victorious in his direct casting of killing curse on Harry? Even though Voldemort manage to put a killing curse on him, Voldemort was knocked unconscious. No one really won this scenario, and no one was /defeated/ in this scenario so no Elder Wand ownership transfer occurred.
**** Well if Harry wasn't killed wouldn't that last Horcrux not've been destroyed?
***** I personally theorize that the wand may not have transferred ownership BECAUSE Voldemort used it on Harry. both the book itself and JKR's FAQ make it clear that the wand won't work right if used against its current owner; this may well extend to transference rules as well.
***** And even if it would have worked Harry let himself be killed, thus dying undefeated.
***** ^ This. Snape didn't become Elder Wand's true master because Dumbledore allowed himself to be killed. Harry did the same thing in the forest, so he was technically not 'defeated'.
***** We don't really know if mercy killing would count as defeat, since the factor here is that Malfoy defeated DD before Snape offed him. Harry makes a point out of Snape not defeating DD, but the problem here was not if mercy kill counts as victory but who fought and won first. That doesn't invalidate the theory above, though.
***** My personal theory is that the Elder Wand wouldn't harm Harry because he was it's true master. That's why Hary didn't die from the Killing Curse in the woods. However, it found that there was something that it ''could'' kill: a hunk of soul from someone else that was just hanging around. Harry ended up at King's Cross Station because he accidently hitch-hiked along with Voldie's soul into Limbo. Since he wasn't actually dead, he was given the choice of staying or going back. As for the final battle, the book says that the Killing Curse rebounded off of Harry. If both spells hit at the same time, then Voldie got disarmed just as the Killing Curse started it's 180, meaning that he was defenseless to do anything about the Killing Curse coming right at what's left of his face. Why did it rebound? Because by never having disarmed Harry, Voldie wasn't 'worthy' of using the Elder Wand, so it refused to act against it's true master once again.
***** A better explanation is that the allegiance of the Elder Wand was not to Harry, but to Malfoy's wand. Harry didn't use it to counter V, so the Elder Wand did what it was told. But in the final duel it recognized the wand that Harry used as the wand that defeated it, so it gave in.

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*** ** Well, did Voldemort looked victorious in his direct casting of killing curse on Harry? Even though Voldemort manage to put a killing curse on him, Voldemort was knocked unconscious. No one really won this scenario, and no one was /defeated/ in this scenario so no Elder Wand ownership transfer occurred.
**** ** Well if Harry wasn't killed wouldn't that last Horcrux not've been destroyed?
***** ** I personally theorize that the wand may not have transferred ownership BECAUSE Voldemort used it on Harry. both the book itself and JKR's FAQ make it clear that the wand won't work right if used against its current owner; this may well extend to transference rules as well.
***** ** And even if it would have worked Harry let himself be killed, thus dying undefeated.
***** ** ^ This. Snape didn't become Elder Wand's true master because Dumbledore allowed himself to be killed. Harry did the same thing in the forest, so he was technically not 'defeated'.
*****
'defeated'.
**
We don't really know if mercy killing would count as defeat, since the factor here is that Malfoy defeated DD before Snape offed him. Harry makes a point out of Snape not defeating DD, but the problem here was not if mercy kill counts as victory but who fought and won first. That doesn't invalidate the theory above, though.
***** ** My personal theory is that the Elder Wand wouldn't harm Harry because he was it's true master. That's why Hary didn't die from the Killing Curse in the woods. However, it found that there was something that it ''could'' kill: a hunk of soul from someone else that was just hanging around. Harry ended up at King's Cross Station because he accidently hitch-hiked along with Voldie's soul into Limbo. Since he wasn't actually dead, he was given the choice of staying or going back. As for the final battle, the book says that the Killing Curse rebounded off of Harry. If both spells hit at the same time, then Voldie got disarmed just as the Killing Curse started it's 180, meaning that he was defenseless to do anything about the Killing Curse coming right at what's left of his face. Why did it rebound? Because by never having disarmed Harry, Voldie wasn't 'worthy' of using the Elder Wand, so it refused to act against it's true master once again.
***** ** A better explanation is that the allegiance of the Elder Wand was not to Harry, but to Malfoy's wand. Harry didn't use it to counter V, so the Elder Wand did what it was told. But in the final duel it recognized the wand that Harry used as the wand that defeated it, so it gave in.in.

[[/folder]]
15th Dec '15 12:33:46 PM IRQ
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Added DiffLines:

***** We don't really know if mercy killing would count as defeat, since the factor here is that Malfoy defeated DD before Snape offed him. Harry makes a point out of Snape not defeating DD, but the problem here was not if mercy kill counts as victory but who fought and won first. That doesn't invalidate the theory above, though.
7th Dec '15 11:07:49 AM JoeCB1991
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***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get his bony mitts on a glock? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife'' as that's mre abundant than the nearly non-existant guns), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry. His pride would not allow him to do it.

to:

***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get his bony mitts on a glock? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife'' as that's mre more abundant than the nearly non-existant guns), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry. His pride would not allow him to do it.
12th Jan '15 5:07:04 AM Xenocidius
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*** Although, the reason his Crucio didn't work on Harry is because he was using the Elder Wand, not because Harry was under his own love protection, so Voldemort could at least have killed Harry with his old wand. Of course, after that he would pretty much be totally screwed.
9th Dec '14 8:05:23 PM iatheia
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***** A better explanation is that the allegiance of the Elder Wand was not to Harry, but to Malfoy's wand. Harry didn't use it to counter V, so the Elder Wand did what it was told. But in the final duel it recognized the wand that Harry used as the wand that defeated it, so it gave in.
4th Dec '13 8:42:06 AM SharleeD
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Added DiffLines:

*** Or it's just the opposite: Voldemort's so caught up in the notion that ''real'' power means the power to utterly destroy one's enemies that he flat-out doesn't ''believe'' Harry's InfoDump. He can't accept that "defeating" someone, by the Elder Wand's standards, can be as simple as knocking a wand from their hand and then leaving them unharmed, so he doesn't believe that Draco's disarming Dumbledore or Harry's disarming Draco could have counted.
3rd Jan '13 6:59:23 AM Moguie
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***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get a gun? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife''), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry.

to:

***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get his bony mitts on a gun? glock? And even if he could get access to a gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife''), ''knife'' as that's mre abundant than the nearly non-existant guns), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry. His pride would not allow him to do it.
3rd Jan '13 6:53:49 AM Moguie
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***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get a gun? And even if he could get access to a gun, he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry.

to:

***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get a gun? And even if he could get access to a gun, gun (or, hell, a goddamned ''knife''), he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry.
3rd Jan '13 6:51:57 AM Moguie
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Added DiffLines:

***** Plus, this is the UK. Where the hell would Voldie get a gun? And even if he could get access to a gun, he wouldn't use it because that'd be admitting to himself that a filthy muggle weapon was abe to do what all his superior magic (remember, he's basially the zombie, magical equivalent of Hitler here) couldn't do. Kill Harry.
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