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History Headscratchers / HarryPotterAndTheDeathlyHallowsSeverusSnapeGoodOrBad

28th Apr '16 8:10:27 PM inspibrain101
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[[folder:Good Test Scores, Good Teacher?]]

* I believe itís mentioned that every student in Harryís year at Hogwarts managed to do well on their OWLs for Potions- even Neville, who is so scared of Snape he was unable to brew a single decent potion (that we know of). Now, some may argue that the reason Neville, at least, did so well is because Snape was not in the room when they were taking the test, thus Snape is a bad teacher. Iím not going to argue that Snape is the greatest potion brewer to grace the dungeons of Hogwarts or anything, but I just canít buy that heís a HORRIBLE teacher. Hereís my reasoning: Itís one thing to do well on, say, an oral examination as opposed to a written test, or essay questions as opposed to multiple choice, or you might learn better with different teachers or teaching styles or whatever. What you canít attribute to teaching style, however, is the knowledge itself. I canít buy that just because the greasy haired git isnít scaring the socks of Neville anymore, he is magically (pardon my pun) gifted the ability to brew a potion for his OWLs. Potion brewing requires practice. And what about all the other kids who passed the OWLs? It was implied that Harry and his friends really had to cram for their potions exam because Snape didnít teach them anything. Again, I donít buy this. EVERY SINGLE KID cramming the week before managed to pass, even though the teacher didnít teach them anything? No, doesnít cut it. But then again, we never really see Snape actually teaching the kids anything particularly useful- just, ďInstructions on the board, go! Meh, you suck, Harry and Neville. Ten points from Gryffindor. Ten points to Slytherin.Ē I have a few hypotheses to explain this:
A. Harry, being a somewhat unreliable narrator, only bothers to note the times that Snape is acting like a slimy git, when all the while, Snape is actually teaching them things in his roundabout, slimy git way. I have had teachers for AP classes with unusual teaching styles, where it doesnít seem like the class learns anything, yet by the time AP day rolls around, weíre surprised to find that we know all the material.
B. Harry, being a somewhat unreliable narrator, exaggerated when he said that everyone passed their OWLs. You really expect me to believe that no one got test day jitters and fumbled with the moonstone dust or the unicorn hairs at the last minute, and accidentally botched their potion? Not one? Not even a Hufflepuff? Not even Neville?
C. Honestly, it would be a lot simpler if JK just didnít include this offhanded sentence- but then again, thatís why itís a headscratcher. The whole thing seems at the very least ironic, if not completely incongruous with what we know about Harryís potions experience and Snapeís teaching methods.

[[/folder]]
12th Apr '16 6:06:05 PM inspibrain101
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**Actually, that might have made Snape's hypothetical (I'll admit, at this point it's all entirely hypothetical,) mean person act all that much more necessary. Think about it- if Quirrellmort, even after seeing Snape being, well, Snape to all the Hogwarts students except the pureblooded Slytherins and Voldie STILL wasn't sure about his loyalties, then imagine how hard it would have been to convince him otherwise if Snape had acted like a decent human being!
12th Apr '16 5:24:34 PM inspibrain101
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** Going back to the original post in this folder. On that same note, the horrible things that Snape did to his students earlier on may have also been exaggerated in the POV of Harry Potter, as children are prone to do when recalling their least favorite school teacher. If we are to take everything presented to us with a grain of salt due to the biased viewpoint it is presented from, then we might be led to believe that Snape wasn't really as "evil" towards his students as was depicted in some of the earlier books, and was really closer to the light side the entire time.
Or, conversely, he was really, really gray.
12th Apr '16 4:57:11 PM inspibrain101
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*** I suspect that when the poster says "Out of character," they mean that the way Snape treats his students is inconsistent with his other character traits.




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**What would be really nice is if all of Snape's abuse towards the students was more of an exaggeration on the part of Harry. Haven't we all exaggerated the evilness of our least favorite teacher in our own minds? Not saying that that's absolutely what's going on, but it's certainly an idea.
12th Apr '16 3:59:39 PM inspibrain101
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** I'm a little confused about the premise of the first question. What Life Debt? (Yes, yes, I've read the books, I'm not literally asking what you're talking about). Snape didn't actually have any "life debt" that was motivating him to help James Potter's son. That was just a load of hogwash Dumbledore told Harry in Book 1, because it's a lot easier to feed something noble and heroic like that to a ten year old than, "Your least favorite teacher had a huge obsession with your dead mom". If anything, James kind of owed SNAPE, for putting him in danger in the supposed 'life debt' incident, before saving him. So, no, he probably didn't give a rip about paying back James.
17th Dec '15 8:38:18 AM Discar
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*** FridgeLogic: If Snape knew about the jinx back then, he was actively SAVING LUPIN'S ASS.

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*** ** FridgeLogic: If Snape knew about the jinx back then, he was actively SAVING LUPIN'S ASS.
17th Dec '15 2:56:43 AM IRQ
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*** [[FridgeLogic]]: If Snape knew about the jinx back then, he was actively SAVING LUPIN'S ASS.

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*** [[FridgeLogic]]: FridgeLogic: If Snape knew about the jinx back then, he was actively SAVING LUPIN'S ASS.
17th Dec '15 2:56:09 AM IRQ
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*** [[FridgeLogic]]: If Snape knew about the jinx back then, he was actively SAVING LUPIN'S ASS.
13th Sep '15 3:37:49 PM Discar
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[[foldercontrol]]

[[folder:Snape's plan with Lily]]



*** Probably because it's been smashed into our heads time and time again that Snape despises James and especially the product of Lily and James' union, Harry, that it wouldn't be ridiculous to assume he particularly asked to spare Lily. And only Lily. Even Dumbledore realizes how sickening it was of the wording. When Dumbledore 'corrected' him, Snape obviously agrees to protect the entire family at the last minute. He doesn't give a rat's ass (Heh, heh Pettigrew humor), about James or Harry. Just Lily. He only went with it because he pissed off Dumbledore, something he wasn't looking to do. I don't agree that he's looking to be 'hubby to a widow Lily', (no doubt Lily would hate Snape severely if she found out). He just wanted her ALIVE and safe, that's it.
* It's because when Dumbledore asked Snape why didn't he ask Voldemort to spare Lily and kill James and Harry (it's phrased differently; can't find the quote), Snape said he HAD asked him that. To which Dumbledore responds with, "You sicken me".

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*** ** Probably because it's been smashed into our heads time and time again that Snape despises James and especially the product of Lily and James' union, Harry, that it wouldn't be ridiculous to assume he particularly asked to spare Lily. And only Lily. Even Dumbledore realizes how sickening it was of the wording. When Dumbledore 'corrected' him, Snape obviously agrees to protect the entire family at the last minute. He doesn't give a rat's ass (Heh, heh Pettigrew humor), about James or Harry. Just Lily. He only went with it because he pissed off Dumbledore, something he wasn't looking to do. I don't agree that he's looking to be 'hubby to a widow Lily', (no doubt Lily would hate Snape severely if she found out). He just wanted her ALIVE and safe, that's it.
* ** It's because when Dumbledore asked Snape why didn't he ask Voldemort to spare Lily and kill James and Harry (it's phrased differently; can't find the quote), Snape said he HAD asked him that. To which Dumbledore responds with, "You sicken me".



*** I don't think that Snape was a good person, but he was still on the side of good, if that makes any sense. It's not even a GoodIsNotNice situation; he wasn't cruel or ruthless because of tough love or because it would make people stronger, he was cruel because he was a dick. He regularly bullied children and psychologically tortured Neville to the point that, despite knowing the face of the woman who tortured his parents into insanity, Snape was his worst fear. He didn't abandon Voldemort's cause because he stopped believing in it, he left because he loved Lily obsessively. He was brave, yes, and loyal to Dumbledore and Lily's memories, but he was still an asshole, actively sabotaging the attempts at happiness of Harry and anyone close to him. He was a bad person, but he was a good guy.
*** You apparently missed the part where I said "''nothing he DID...''" And um, yes, it ''is'' a GoodIsNotNice situation. From the GoodIsNotNice page: ''He never kills anyone if he can help it, nor will he allow people to come to any sort of harm by ignoring them. He's always willing to go out of his way to save the town and complete strangers. When the call comes, he will answer it, usually with very little protest. He will often help people in need with little promise of reward. In almost every way, he acts like the typical hero. Except that he's antisocial and sometimes downright abusive toward most people he meets. He may refuse to explain anything. He may actively repulse people who express gratitude, friendship, and love, as well as offers of support if he's got a problem. ...Good Is Not Nice is... a character who is morally slanted toward the good side, but is rude, unfriendly, and mean.'' If that isn't Severus Snape to a T, nothing is. (It's usually a good idea to ''read'' the trope pages before making an example of them, yanno?)
**** Yeah, except it's ''not'' Severus Snape to a T. In exchange for turning coat on Voldemort, Dumbledore provided him with immunity from prosecution for his crimes while under the Dark Lord's employ, the promise of Lily's safety (which obviously didn't take), and a position at Hogwarts. He has, in the past, actively sabotaged Harry (and friends') ability to receive an education, despite knowing for a fact that he (and friends) would be faced with dangers far beyond those that an undertrained teenage boy (and friends) should be faced with. He attempted to effectively murder Sirius. He is not unfailingly good. He is, perhaps, failingly good. And the reason that he is currently on the side of good is not because of his own moral code but that of Lily's, and while the strength of his loyalty, bravery, and devotion are worthy of merit, his morality isn't. He's not GoodIsNotNice, he's Greyish Morality Is Not Nice. But you're right: I did fail to address your original point, which was your refuting "nothing he did counted as good." Because I agreed with it. He did good things. He also did hateful, malevolent things that would easily push him out of the Good column and well into the Neutral.

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*** ** I don't think that Snape was a good person, but he was still on the side of good, if that makes any sense. It's not even a GoodIsNotNice situation; he wasn't cruel or ruthless because of tough love or because it would make people stronger, he was cruel because he was a dick. He regularly bullied children and psychologically tortured Neville to the point that, despite knowing the face of the woman who tortured his parents into insanity, Snape was his worst fear. He didn't abandon Voldemort's cause because he stopped believing in it, he left because he loved Lily obsessively. He was brave, yes, and loyal to Dumbledore and Lily's memories, but he was still an asshole, actively sabotaging the attempts at happiness of Harry and anyone close to him. He was a bad person, but he was a good guy.
*** ** You apparently missed the part where I said "''nothing he DID...''" And um, yes, it ''is'' a GoodIsNotNice situation. From the GoodIsNotNice page: ''He never kills anyone if he can help it, nor will he allow people to come to any sort of harm by ignoring them. He's always willing to go out of his way to save the town and complete strangers. When the call comes, he will answer it, usually with very little protest. He will often help people in need with little promise of reward. In almost every way, he acts like the typical hero. Except that he's antisocial and sometimes downright abusive toward most people he meets. He may refuse to explain anything. He may actively repulse people who express gratitude, friendship, and love, as well as offers of support if he's got a problem. ...Good Is Not Nice is... a character who is morally slanted toward the good side, but is rude, unfriendly, and mean.'' If that isn't Severus Snape to a T, nothing is. (It's usually a good idea to ''read'' the trope pages before making an example of them, yanno?)
**** ** Yeah, except it's ''not'' Severus Snape to a T. In exchange for turning coat on Voldemort, Dumbledore provided him with immunity from prosecution for his crimes while under the Dark Lord's employ, the promise of Lily's safety (which obviously didn't take), and a position at Hogwarts. He has, in the past, actively sabotaged Harry (and friends') ability to receive an education, despite knowing for a fact that he (and friends) would be faced with dangers far beyond those that an undertrained teenage boy (and friends) should be faced with. He attempted to effectively murder Sirius. He is not unfailingly good. He is, perhaps, failingly good. And the reason that he is currently on the side of good is not because of his own moral code but that of Lily's, and while the strength of his loyalty, bravery, and devotion are worthy of merit, his morality isn't. He's not GoodIsNotNice, he's Greyish Morality Is Not Nice. But you're right: I did fail to address your original point, which was your refuting "nothing he did counted as good." Because I agreed with it. He did good things. He also did hateful, malevolent things that would easily push him out of the Good column and well into the Neutral.



*** I remember a scene in the third book where the kids were supposed to be making a Shrinking Solution, and Neville messed up badly and began to redo it in the middle of class. A good teacher would have explained to Neville what he did wrong the first time and how he could improve. A bad teacher would have left him alone and failed him for the day when he messed up his second potion. A dick teacher would have left him on his own, then force-fed the potion to his [[http://pottermorespoilers.tumblr.com/post/9725039703/history-toads "beloved"]] pet, fully expecting the stupid toad to die. Guess which one Snape did.
*** While it's true that Harry was unwilling to learn from Snape, Snape was, from the very start, unwilling to teach him. He began by bullying him (relentless pop quiz on his first day of school, and his first introduction into magical education). Harry should have tried to rise above this abuse for the sake of his education, as Potions is important for later life and the career he wishes to attain - but is it really fair to ask a 15 year old boy (as he was during his [=OWLs=], for example) to be the bigger person? Or to try hard in a class where (as we see one day when Harry thinks he might have actually done well) the teacher will actively sabotage your efforts and fail you? Not good for motivation. Hermione learns from Snape because she has a thirst to learn and do well, but for an average student, why would you work hard if you're guaranteed to fail? As for DADA, I think the mutual hatred was basically ingrained, although I don't think it was particularly mentioned that Harry didn't pay attention. He probably did. He just still hated Snape and Snape continued to bully him. He should have been more open to Snape's lessons, but I can easily see why he wasn't.
**** I agree. Snape ''did'' "actively sabotage" them on several occasions: at least once, because Harry hadn't made a potion ''perfectly'' (and, as he had mentioned, there were many in the class whose potions had turned out worse than his), he gets a 0 for the day. Later, when he makes sure that he had followed every step, Snape intentionally drops his flask, ruining the potion, and gives him another 0. It isn't restricted to Harry: Neville is bad at the subject, yet Snape never tries to correct his mistakes, only bullies him. He basically presents the material and expects mastery, rather than helping students when they encounter problems (I've had teachers like that before -- I know that students need to make the effort to learn, but the teacher needs to actually care about them learning, too). What really irritates me is that the end of the series basically [[HandWave Hand Waves]] all of his considerable shortcomings and outright cruelty because he did a lot to help the good guys. It feels like the readers are supposed to forget how nasty Snape was throughout the series because they're deluged by an onslaught of him being a somewhat decent person.
*** Actually, there's at least one clear instance in [=GoF=] where Harry hands a lab assignment in and Snape "accidentally" drops Harry's potion on the floor the instant Harry's back is turned, and then sneers and gives Harry a zero. Deliberately destroying a student's assignments so you can flunk him is academic sabotage, which is a severe code-of-conduct violation in any remotely sane school district and sufficient justification for firing a teacher all by itself.
**** Uhm, no. It happens in "Order" and ''after'' the Pensieve incident. It's not sabotage - it's revenge. You will probably say that a teacher should not succumb to such petty pursuits, and I will wholeheartedly agree, but then counter that, just as with all other Sev's failings as a teacher, it's a moot point because Snape ''is not a teacher''. The Potion Master position is a front. He's DD's link to Malfoys, a triple agent with V and one of the master hands in Harry's preparation/indoctrination, namely the Bad Cop and the foil to DD himself (hence no, DD couldn't have pushed him to some desc job, especially an invented one - he had to remain close to the Scarhead and also to appear to be in DD's confidence, not just just his viscinity).
**** Which is, as already conceded, still no excuse for his behavior. Also, Dumbledore's recurring ethical lapses in hiring teachers who can't teach because it serves his purposes elsewhere is a separate Headscratchers vs. Dumbledore. Lastly, this argument contains the implicit assumption that the ''only'' possible way to allow Snape to remain a viable double agent is to make him Potions Master, Head of Slytherin, ''and'' nigh-immune to standard academic codes of conduct re: the ethical responsibilities and basic decorum expected of teachers. An assumption that is -- to put it charitably -- contested.
*** Like the posters above, I read the books where Snape deliberately gave Harry failing marks unfairly and bullied his students without correcting their mistakes. I would also like to add that SNAPE IS A TEACHER. I fail to see how some people do not understand what a teacher is supposed to be. If students are meant to sit down with a list of ingredients and just figure things out themselves like in Snape's class, then the class is little more than self-study and the students should be applauded for passing their [=OWLs=] with nobody to teach them. That would put Snape on the level of a '''poor''' teacher like Binns, who drones in monotone straight from the textbook. When Snape doesn't teach anything '''and also bullies the students''', then his class is '''worse''' than a self-study session with no teacher. He is actively sabotaging their learning.
*** Re: the [=OWLs=], it is specifically mentioned in [=OotP=] that the main reason Neville did as good on the test as he did is because ''Snape wasn't in the room''. If your students experience a quantum leap of improvement in their skills from your ''not'' being there, then you must be the worst teacher ever. Also, I don't think its coincidental that the one time Harry's Potions skills were graded by independent evaluators not named Snape, he got a higher grade from them then he ever did in Snape's class.
**** Also, in ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndThePrisonerOfAzkaban The Prisoner of Azkaban]]'', Neville, who is a thirteen-year-old boy, fears Snape, his TEACHER, above all else, so much that he was terrified at the prospect of facing him (evidenced by his boggart). You are not supposed to terrify your students that much. That is abusive.
*** re: "Snape is not a teacher" -- yes, yes he is. He is being paid by a school to instruct children in academic subjects. Therefore, he is a damn teacher and is expected to act like one. The fact that he has several jobs in addition to being a teacher does not make him stop being a teacher as well, nor does it immunize him from criticism for failing to do his day job, nor does it excuse Dumbledore hiring him to teach if he can't or won't actually do the job. Its not even strictly required for his "cover" -- the vast majority of Order members are not Hogwarts employees..
*** Another point: Harry Potter is a child. Snape is an adult. Why should Harry have to be the one who keeps having to mind his manners? Why can't Snape ever mind his own? In a confrontation between an adult and a child don't we usually expect the grown-up to be the one who has ''less'' excuse for acting pettily, not more?
**** To answer your question, it's because most of the people who post on here are either Americans or British, and both the United States and England have rather long histories of child-rearing practices where parents expected more from children than they did of themselves (although this has started to go away in recent years, to mixed reactions). In fact, in ''any'' situation where there's a power imbalance (not just teachers vs. students or parents vs. children), power also tends to have the power to "define reality", and of course this is used to shield power from criticism. The people on here are expecting more from Harry than they are from Snape because they think there's nothing that can really be ''done'' about Snape ''anyway''. He's a power figure, he'll just dismiss all blame. So, might as well solve Harry's half of the equation since Snape will never solve his half; at least I think this is the reasoning behind it.
***** ... um, I don't get it. I posted the entry you're replying to and I ''am'' American. Also, any educator like Snape that existed in one of our school systems would be lucky to avoid ''lynching'' once word of what he was doing finally got out to the parents of the kids (even if our nation can, sadly, provide real-world examples of school adminstrators who would enable or help cover up such abuses).

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*** ** I remember a scene in the third book where the kids were supposed to be making a Shrinking Solution, and Neville messed up badly and began to redo it in the middle of class. A good teacher would have explained to Neville what he did wrong the first time and how he could improve. A bad teacher would have left him alone and failed him for the day when he messed up his second potion. A dick teacher would have left him on his own, then force-fed the potion to his [[http://pottermorespoilers.tumblr.com/post/9725039703/history-toads "beloved"]] pet, fully expecting the stupid toad to die. Guess which one Snape did.
*** ** While it's true that Harry was unwilling to learn from Snape, Snape was, from the very start, unwilling to teach him. He began by bullying him (relentless pop quiz on his first day of school, and his first introduction into magical education). Harry should have tried to rise above this abuse for the sake of his education, as Potions is important for later life and the career he wishes to attain - but is it really fair to ask a 15 year old boy (as he was during his [=OWLs=], for example) to be the bigger person? Or to try hard in a class where (as we see one day when Harry thinks he might have actually done well) the teacher will actively sabotage your efforts and fail you? Not good for motivation. Hermione learns from Snape because she has a thirst to learn and do well, but for an average student, why would you work hard if you're guaranteed to fail? As for DADA, I think the mutual hatred was basically ingrained, although I don't think it was particularly mentioned that Harry didn't pay attention. He probably did. He just still hated Snape and Snape continued to bully him. He should have been more open to Snape's lessons, but I can easily see why he wasn't.
**** ** I agree. Snape ''did'' "actively sabotage" them on several occasions: at least once, because Harry hadn't made a potion ''perfectly'' (and, as he had mentioned, there were many in the class whose potions had turned out worse than his), he gets a 0 for the day. Later, when he makes sure that he had followed every step, Snape intentionally drops his flask, ruining the potion, and gives him another 0. It isn't restricted to Harry: Neville is bad at the subject, yet Snape never tries to correct his mistakes, only bullies him. He basically presents the material and expects mastery, rather than helping students when they encounter problems (I've had teachers like that before -- I know that students need to make the effort to learn, but the teacher needs to actually care about them learning, too). What really irritates me is that the end of the series basically [[HandWave Hand Waves]] all of his considerable shortcomings and outright cruelty because he did a lot to help the good guys. It feels like the readers are supposed to forget how nasty Snape was throughout the series because they're deluged by an onslaught of him being a somewhat decent person.
*** ** Actually, there's at least one clear instance in [=GoF=] where Harry hands a lab assignment in and Snape "accidentally" drops Harry's potion on the floor the instant Harry's back is turned, and then sneers and gives Harry a zero. Deliberately destroying a student's assignments so you can flunk him is academic sabotage, which is a severe code-of-conduct violation in any remotely sane school district and sufficient justification for firing a teacher all by itself.
**** ** Uhm, no. It happens in "Order" and ''after'' the Pensieve incident. It's not sabotage - it's revenge. You will probably say that a teacher should not succumb to such petty pursuits, and I will wholeheartedly agree, but then counter that, just as with all other Sev's failings as a teacher, it's a moot point because Snape ''is not a teacher''. The Potion Master position is a front. He's DD's link to Malfoys, a triple agent with V and one of the master hands in Harry's preparation/indoctrination, namely the Bad Cop and the foil to DD himself (hence no, DD couldn't have pushed him to some desc job, especially an invented one - he had to remain close to the Scarhead and also to appear to be in DD's confidence, not just just his viscinity).
**** ** Which is, as already conceded, still no excuse for his behavior. Also, Dumbledore's recurring ethical lapses in hiring teachers who can't teach because it serves his purposes elsewhere is a separate Headscratchers vs. Dumbledore. Lastly, this argument contains the implicit assumption that the ''only'' possible way to allow Snape to remain a viable double agent is to make him Potions Master, Head of Slytherin, ''and'' nigh-immune to standard academic codes of conduct re: the ethical responsibilities and basic decorum expected of teachers. An assumption that is -- to put it charitably -- contested.
*** ** Like the posters above, I read the books where Snape deliberately gave Harry failing marks unfairly and bullied his students without correcting their mistakes. I would also like to add that SNAPE IS A TEACHER. I fail to see how some people do not understand what a teacher is supposed to be. If students are meant to sit down with a list of ingredients and just figure things out themselves like in Snape's class, then the class is little more than self-study and the students should be applauded for passing their [=OWLs=] with nobody to teach them. That would put Snape on the level of a '''poor''' teacher like Binns, who drones in monotone straight from the textbook. When Snape doesn't teach anything '''and also bullies the students''', then his class is '''worse''' than a self-study session with no teacher. He is actively sabotaging their learning.
*** ** Re: the [=OWLs=], it is specifically mentioned in [=OotP=] that the main reason Neville did as good on the test as he did is because ''Snape wasn't in the room''. If your students experience a quantum leap of improvement in their skills from your ''not'' being there, then you must be the worst teacher ever. Also, I don't think its coincidental that the one time Harry's Potions skills were graded by independent evaluators not named Snape, he got a higher grade from them then he ever did in Snape's class.
**** ** Also, in ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndThePrisonerOfAzkaban The Prisoner of Azkaban]]'', Neville, who is a thirteen-year-old boy, fears Snape, his TEACHER, above all else, so much that he was terrified at the prospect of facing him (evidenced by his boggart). You are not supposed to terrify your students that much. That is abusive.
*** ** re: "Snape is not a teacher" -- yes, yes he is. He is being paid by a school to instruct children in academic subjects. Therefore, he is a damn teacher and is expected to act like one. The fact that he has several jobs in addition to being a teacher does not make him stop being a teacher as well, nor does it immunize him from criticism for failing to do his day job, nor does it excuse Dumbledore hiring him to teach if he can't or won't actually do the job. Its not even strictly required for his "cover" -- the vast majority of Order members are not Hogwarts employees..
*** ** Another point: Harry Potter is a child. Snape is an adult. Why should Harry have to be the one who keeps having to mind his manners? Why can't Snape ever mind his own? In a confrontation between an adult and a child don't we usually expect the grown-up to be the one who has ''less'' excuse for acting pettily, not more?
**** ** To answer your question, it's because most of the people who post on here are either Americans or British, and both the United States and England have rather long histories of child-rearing practices where parents expected more from children than they did of themselves (although this has started to go away in recent years, to mixed reactions). In fact, in ''any'' situation where there's a power imbalance (not just teachers vs. students or parents vs. children), power also tends to have the power to "define reality", and of course this is used to shield power from criticism. The people on here are expecting more from Harry than they are from Snape because they think there's nothing that can really be ''done'' about Snape ''anyway''. He's a power figure, he'll just dismiss all blame. So, might as well solve Harry's half of the equation since Snape will never solve his half; at least I think this is the reasoning behind it.
***** ...** ... um, I don't get it. I posted the entry you're replying to and I ''am'' American. Also, any educator like Snape that existed in one of our school systems would be lucky to avoid ''lynching'' once word of what he was doing finally got out to the parents of the kids (even if our nation can, sadly, provide real-world examples of school adminstrators who would enable or help cover up such abuses).



*** Furthermore, Snape being an unlikeable and harsh teacher helps teach students that you cannot always rely on authority or adults, which is a reason why Dumbledore has him as a teacher, outside of being a good potioneer. Although the wisdom of starting 11-year-old children off with the lesson 'authority figures cannot be relied upon', delivered via an emotionally traumatizing medium no less, is debatable. Generally speaking, its considered wise to wait on teaching the 'Adults cannot always do it for you; you must be prepared to do it for yourself' lesson until the children in question are actually old enough that they ''can'' start functioning at adult level at least part of the time... i.e., when they're older teenagers. There is a reason young children are treated like children -- they're not yet ready to survive the world without relying on adult guidance and support. That's basically the definition of "child".
* People are not "good" or "bad". People can do good things or bad things or both, sometimes to the extent that it is impossible to weigh the one against the other in any meaningful way. Isn't that the whole point of Snape's characterization and story?

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*** ** Furthermore, Snape being an unlikeable and harsh teacher helps teach students that you cannot always rely on authority or adults, which is a reason why Dumbledore has him as a teacher, outside of being a good potioneer. Although the wisdom of starting 11-year-old children off with the lesson 'authority figures cannot be relied upon', delivered via an emotionally traumatizing medium no less, is debatable. Generally speaking, its considered wise to wait on teaching the 'Adults cannot always do it for you; you must be prepared to do it for yourself' lesson until the children in question are actually old enough that they ''can'' start functioning at adult level at least part of the time... i.e., when they're older teenagers. There is a reason young children are treated like children -- they're not yet ready to survive the world without relying on adult guidance and support. That's basically the definition of "child".
* ** People are not "good" or "bad". People can do good things or bad things or both, sometimes to the extent that it is impossible to weigh the one against the other in any meaningful way. Isn't that the whole point of Snape's characterization and story?



*** Gotta disagree with the above categorizations of "good guys" versus "bad guys." As the comment above the one above mine states, it isn't always the case that there are "good" or "bad" characters; rather, they are defined by their actions and choices rather than clear-cut morality labels that indicate on which side of the good/bad scale that the characters stand. Morally speaking, even the supposedly "good" characters clearly perform certain actions that violate an unspoken set of standards that "good" characters must adhere to (Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore quickly come to mind). Though there are some characters who clearly define anything but "evil" in the series (i.e. Bellatrix Lestrange, the {{Big Bad}} Tommy Riddle), many of the others aren't so conspicuous, which is what Snape is supposed to represent.

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*** ** Gotta disagree with the above categorizations of "good guys" versus "bad guys." As the comment above the one above mine states, it isn't always the case that there are "good" or "bad" characters; rather, they are defined by their actions and choices rather than clear-cut morality labels that indicate on which side of the good/bad scale that the characters stand. Morally speaking, even the supposedly "good" characters clearly perform certain actions that violate an unspoken set of standards that "good" characters must adhere to (Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore quickly come to mind). Though there are some characters who clearly define anything but "evil" in the series (i.e. Bellatrix Lestrange, the {{Big Bad}} Tommy Riddle), many of the others aren't so conspicuous, which is what Snape is supposed to represent.represent.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Life Debt]]



*** I agree, but as noted above, and as you kinda noted too, there's really no way Snape ''could'' have begged for all three lives. Now, when Snape came to Dumbledore and asked him to help save Lily, that was selfish and Dumbledore called him out on it. But with Voldemort, Harry was the whole reason he was focused on the Potters, and James had drawn Voldemort's wrath anyway. The only person Voldemort might conceivably spare, if properly begged for by a loyal Death Eater, is Lily. Snape asking Voldie to spare her was effectively a backup plan if the Order of the Phoenix failed to protect all three, and it was the most he could expect from the Death Eater side of things. It's still selfish, but it's also the only thing he could ask from Voldemort without getting exposed as a traitor, or at least sounding like he's gone completely mad ("Um, say, Voldemort, could you just forget all about that baby prophesied to destroy you? And his father, the one who's defied you three times, we can spare him too, right? Oh yeah, and the boy's mother, let's just make it three for three. So, we're all done with this Death Eater meeting about how to deal with the prophecy, right? Who wants tacos?").
**** What makes you think that Voldemort felt more wrath towards James than Lily? The prophecy said that Harry was born to "those" who had thrice defied him, not "he who had thrice defied him and she who is a pretty face but completely neutral in the matter". I always assumed that Lily and James had both gotten themselves in bad situations with Voldemort three times and defied him.
***** Then he already personally wants to kill them both, which makes Snape trying to bargain with Voldemort for all their lives even more impossible.
***** This is somewhat moot, as Voldemort ''did'' do what Snape asked, giving Lily a chance to save herself. She did not. This was the entire point of the 'love' protection, that she could have just walked away and been safe, but chose to die. Presumably, without Snape's request, he would have just have killed her immediately.

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*** ** I agree, but as noted above, and as you kinda noted too, there's really no way Snape ''could'' have begged for all three lives. Now, when Snape came to Dumbledore and asked him to help save Lily, that was selfish and Dumbledore called him out on it. But with Voldemort, Harry was the whole reason he was focused on the Potters, and James had drawn Voldemort's wrath anyway. The only person Voldemort might conceivably spare, if properly begged for by a loyal Death Eater, is Lily. Snape asking Voldie to spare her was effectively a backup plan if the Order of the Phoenix failed to protect all three, and it was the most he could expect from the Death Eater side of things. It's still selfish, but it's also the only thing he could ask from Voldemort without getting exposed as a traitor, or at least sounding like he's gone completely mad ("Um, say, Voldemort, could you just forget all about that baby prophesied to destroy you? And his father, the one who's defied you three times, we can spare him too, right? Oh yeah, and the boy's mother, let's just make it three for three. So, we're all done with this Death Eater meeting about how to deal with the prophecy, right? Who wants tacos?").
**** ** What makes you think that Voldemort felt more wrath towards James than Lily? The prophecy said that Harry was born to "those" who had thrice defied him, not "he who had thrice defied him and she who is a pretty face but completely neutral in the matter". I always assumed that Lily and James had both gotten themselves in bad situations with Voldemort three times and defied him.
***** ** Then he already personally wants to kill them both, which makes Snape trying to bargain with Voldemort for all their lives even more impossible.
***** ** This is somewhat moot, as Voldemort ''did'' do what Snape asked, giving Lily a chance to save herself. She did not. This was the entire point of the 'love' protection, that she could have just walked away and been safe, but chose to die. Presumably, without Snape's request, he would have just have killed her immediately.




[[/folder]]

[[folder:Neville]]



*** Bellatrix tortured Neville's parents AFTER Voldemort was vanquished. The book specifically mentioned that the Longbottoms were tortured because the still-loyal Death Eaters want to know their master's whereabouts.

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*** ** Bellatrix tortured Neville's parents AFTER Voldemort was vanquished. The book specifically mentioned that the Longbottoms were tortured because the still-loyal Death Eaters want to know their master's whereabouts.whereabouts.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Special Treatment]]



*** I never got the impression it was making it look ambiguous. Harry naming his son after Snape in [[FanonDiscontinuity the epilogue]] implies that Harry totally forgave everything Snape ever did to him, no matter how petty and cruel. You could argue it's a sign of Harry forgiving Snape and moving past his hatred, which I wouldn't mind. But the way it's presented and the level of fondness he shows seems to imply that Harry looks back on Snape with admiration and affection; it's a little absurd. Admiration, ''maybe'', but you don't look back on someone who dragged out a schoolyard grudge and bullied you every day for 6 years with affection. Likewise, I just read The Prince's Tale, and it puts a lot of emphasis on Snape's reactions to Lily breaking off ties with him and getting picked on, which is fine, but it also totally skives over the stuff Snape did to deserve it. We heard it mentioned everywhere else that Snape did bad stuff at school as well and acted like a git to everyone besides Lily, but the last ending of the series decides to totally cut this out and look at his positive qualities. That's what bothered me, not that Snape was a flawed character, but the book's seeming insistence that he was a victim of circumstance. FreudianExcuse or no, he made his own mistakes.
**** Odd, I thought that Snape's character zigzagged between the side of "good" and "evil" multiple times, until near the end of the book 7 where it's finally revealed that he's in the "good." I think one of the main differences in this book that distinguishes Harry's side and Voldemort's side is reflected upon in their own individual characters; Harry understands and appreciates the value of friendship and the ability to love, while Voldemort cannot. As such, Voldemort is capable of astonishingly "great but terrible" deeds, while simultaneously this trait leads to Voldemort's ultimate downfall in the end of the series. So we've got the extreme "evil," clearly in the form of Voldemort, while on the protagonists' side we've got a bunch of characters bordering/flat-out on the moral gray zone (Neither the titular character nor the series' wise mentor Dumbledore was exempt from committing some morally questionable acts). That is, there's really no single character who accurately portrays the extreme of "good" as well as Voldemort does for the extreme of "evil" - there are no morally perfect characters even on the protagonists' side, while there are morally incorrigible characters on the antagonists' side. Anyway, so wherein this spectrum does Snape lie? Snape did have character flaws; this Troper notes that this is more clearly so noticeable than other characters because Snape was so closely associated with Voldemort, the ultimate representation of how evil that one can possibly get (in this series, I mean, though some would argue that Umbridge is pretty high up there for this position as well). Despite his critical mistakes, Snape did attempt to make amends - one thing that stood out the most for this Troper was that Snape, in essence, absolutely forbid Dumbledore to tell anyone about his personal motive and involvement in Dumbledore's plans. If at the very least Harry had known about Snape earlier, Harry's viewpoint about Snape may have changed considerably towards a much more positive direction than it actually was in the series. This Troper is in no way trying to shove Snape [[{{DracoInLeatherPants}} into a pair of leather pants]] by dismissing all of his flaws as trivial. Snape's overall jerkass attitude during Harry's time in Hogwarts is, at the very least, justified. By meeting Harry, Snape is painfully reminded of his unrequited love for Lily (via Harry's eyes, which remind Snape of Lily's), of his crappy school days (via Harry's [[{{GenerationXerox}} similarity to James]]), and of his own desire for amends (via his promise with Dumbledore) which actually won't change anything about his past. He's a conflicted dude, and I'm surprised he was able to pull off his jerkass attitude so subtly as to hide his true motives and reasons. Basically, this Troper found that he sympathized with Snape's character - James Potter, even to this day, is such a dick...

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*** ** I never got the impression it was making it look ambiguous. Harry naming his son after Snape in [[FanonDiscontinuity the epilogue]] implies that Harry totally forgave everything Snape ever did to him, no matter how petty and cruel. You could argue it's a sign of Harry forgiving Snape and moving past his hatred, which I wouldn't mind. But the way it's presented and the level of fondness he shows seems to imply that Harry looks back on Snape with admiration and affection; it's a little absurd. Admiration, ''maybe'', but you don't look back on someone who dragged out a schoolyard grudge and bullied you every day for 6 years with affection. Likewise, I just read The Prince's Tale, and it puts a lot of emphasis on Snape's reactions to Lily breaking off ties with him and getting picked on, which is fine, but it also totally skives over the stuff Snape did to deserve it. We heard it mentioned everywhere else that Snape did bad stuff at school as well and acted like a git to everyone besides Lily, but the last ending of the series decides to totally cut this out and look at his positive qualities. That's what bothered me, not that Snape was a flawed character, but the book's seeming insistence that he was a victim of circumstance. FreudianExcuse or no, he made his own mistakes.
**** ** Odd, I thought that Snape's character zigzagged between the side of "good" and "evil" multiple times, until near the end of the book 7 where it's finally revealed that he's in the "good." I think one of the main differences in this book that distinguishes Harry's side and Voldemort's side is reflected upon in their own individual characters; Harry understands and appreciates the value of friendship and the ability to love, while Voldemort cannot. As such, Voldemort is capable of astonishingly "great but terrible" deeds, while simultaneously this trait leads to Voldemort's ultimate downfall in the end of the series. So we've got the extreme "evil," clearly in the form of Voldemort, while on the protagonists' side we've got a bunch of characters bordering/flat-out on the moral gray zone (Neither the titular character nor the series' wise mentor Dumbledore was exempt from committing some morally questionable acts). That is, there's really no single character who accurately portrays the extreme of "good" as well as Voldemort does for the extreme of "evil" - there are no morally perfect characters even on the protagonists' side, while there are morally incorrigible characters on the antagonists' side. Anyway, so wherein this spectrum does Snape lie? Snape did have character flaws; this Troper notes that this is more clearly so noticeable than other characters because Snape was so closely associated with Voldemort, the ultimate representation of how evil that one can possibly get (in this series, I mean, though some would argue that Umbridge is pretty high up there for this position as well). Despite his critical mistakes, Snape did attempt to make amends - one thing that stood out the most for this Troper was that Snape, in essence, absolutely forbid Dumbledore to tell anyone about his personal motive and involvement in Dumbledore's plans. If at the very least Harry had known about Snape earlier, Harry's viewpoint about Snape may have changed considerably towards a much more positive direction than it actually was in the series. This Troper is in no way trying to shove Snape [[{{DracoInLeatherPants}} into a pair of leather pants]] by dismissing all of his flaws as trivial. Snape's overall jerkass attitude during Harry's time in Hogwarts is, at the very least, justified. By meeting Harry, Snape is painfully reminded of his unrequited love for Lily (via Harry's eyes, which remind Snape of Lily's), of his crappy school days (via Harry's [[{{GenerationXerox}} similarity to James]]), and of his own desire for amends (via his promise with Dumbledore) which actually won't change anything about his past. He's a conflicted dude, and I'm surprised he was able to pull off his jerkass attitude so subtly as to hide his true motives and reasons. Basically, this Troper found that he sympathized with Snape's character - James Potter, even to this day, is such a dick...

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Sadist Teacher]]



*** He doesn't get a pass because he had a bad childhood. He's a thirty-odd-year-old man. It sucks that he came from an abusive household, it really does. And maybe that can at least give him some slack for joining up with the Death Eaters, though not a lot. But by the time Harry hit Hogwarts, Snape should have gotten over it, or at least learned to deal with it enough that it shouldn't be informing every action he takes. The fact that his father yelled at him doesn't mean that it's okay that he terrorizes Neville so much that a boy who knows the face of the woman who tortured his parents into insanity ''still'' has Snape as his worst fear. Whatever else he did that may have made him heroic, he treated those children appallingly and has absolutely no excuse for it.
*** Why is everyone using "Snape is Neville's worst fear" as evidence against him? This troper always assumed that most of the boggart scene relied on RuleOfFunny; otherwise, the whole scene doesn't make sense. Would Neville ''really'' be more afraid of Snape being snide than a madman running towards him with a knife? Would Ron ''really'' be more afraid of a spider than watching his entire family die while he was helpless to react? No. They're just throwaway, easily illustrated phobias that the reader could connect to a plot point. If Rowling showed Neville's parents being driven insane, the audience wouldn't know what the heck was going on, because that plot point hadn't been explained yet. Even his ''classmates'' laughed when Neville admitted what his "worst fear" was. Now, that's not to say that Snape isn't a serious jerkass, especially to Neville, and that's not to say that his teaching skills don't need work. He's a dick, but i would hardly call anything he ever did to his students "appalling". There are people like him that get off on abusing their power everywhere in and out of the school system. He's actually better than most; seeing how almost every single one of his students passed their O.W.L.s without much fuss, including Harry who has neither natural talent nor interest towards the subject, he must not have been trying at that "obstruct their education" thing very hard. Considering some of the teachers this troper knows of, Harry is lucky that Snape is the ''only'' jerkass teacher he has to deal with every day.

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*** ** He doesn't get a pass because he had a bad childhood. He's a thirty-odd-year-old man. It sucks that he came from an abusive household, it really does. And maybe that can at least give him some slack for joining up with the Death Eaters, though not a lot. But by the time Harry hit Hogwarts, Snape should have gotten over it, or at least learned to deal with it enough that it shouldn't be informing every action he takes. The fact that his father yelled at him doesn't mean that it's okay that he terrorizes Neville so much that a boy who knows the face of the woman who tortured his parents into insanity ''still'' has Snape as his worst fear. Whatever else he did that may have made him heroic, he treated those children appallingly and has absolutely no excuse for it.
*** ** Why is everyone using "Snape is Neville's worst fear" as evidence against him? This troper always assumed that most of the boggart scene relied on RuleOfFunny; otherwise, the whole scene doesn't make sense. Would Neville ''really'' be more afraid of Snape being snide than a madman running towards him with a knife? Would Ron ''really'' be more afraid of a spider than watching his entire family die while he was helpless to react? No. They're just throwaway, easily illustrated phobias that the reader could connect to a plot point. If Rowling showed Neville's parents being driven insane, the audience wouldn't know what the heck was going on, because that plot point hadn't been explained yet. Even his ''classmates'' laughed when Neville admitted what his "worst fear" was. Now, that's not to say that Snape isn't a serious jerkass, especially to Neville, and that's not to say that his teaching skills don't need work. He's a dick, but i would hardly call anything he ever did to his students "appalling". There are people like him that get off on abusing their power everywhere in and out of the school system. He's actually better than most; seeing how almost every single one of his students passed their O.W.L.s without much fuss, including Harry who has neither natural talent nor interest towards the subject, he must not have been trying at that "obstruct their education" thing very hard. Considering some of the teachers this troper knows of, Harry is lucky that Snape is the ''only'' jerkass teacher he has to deal with every day.



*** Well, except Voldermort was a terrible murderer even without the attempted genocide (shit, he was torturing kids and killing their pets before he hit double digits), and Lucius Malfoy would still be a rascist rich dick. It is inexcusable how Snape treated his students, yes, but not to the degree that *that* is what makes him evil. No, that's just his big flaw- he'sa Jerkass.

to:

*** ** Well, except Voldermort was a terrible murderer even without the attempted genocide (shit, he was torturing kids and killing their pets before he hit double digits), and Lucius Malfoy would still be a rascist rich dick. It is inexcusable how Snape treated his students, yes, but not to the degree that *that* is what makes him evil. No, that's just his big flaw- he'sa Jerkass.Jerkass.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Harry's POV]]



* If Snape was a good guy, then when was he planning on telling Harry he was the last horcrux? Its almost like Snape knew he was going to be killed so he can finally tell Harry the truth.

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* ** If Snape was a good guy, then when was he planning on telling Harry he was the last horcrux? Its almost like Snape knew he was going to be killed so he can finally tell Harry the truth.



*** Disarm and tie him up, obviously. Harry was still no much for Snape in combat.

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*** ** Disarm and tie him up, obviously. Harry was still no much for Snape in combat.



* Some of you seem not to understand the difference between "being good" and "doing good things". Barty Crouch Jr. taught a lot about DADA. Was this a good thing to do? Yes. Was he good? No. But he did good things for several reasons. Same could be said about Snape. Now, I'm not saying Snape was a bad person like Crouch Jr., I just want to demonstrate that you could be a Bad Person and still do good things. Being good or bad is about motivations and morals, and this Headscratcher is about whether Snape was good or merely did good things because of some reasons, even though he didn't believe in it.

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* ** Some of you seem not to understand the difference between "being good" and "doing good things". Barty Crouch Jr. taught a lot about DADA. Was this a good thing to do? Yes. Was he good? No. But he did good things for several reasons. Same could be said about Snape. Now, I'm not saying Snape was a bad person like Crouch Jr., I just want to demonstrate that you could be a Bad Person and still do good things. Being good or bad is about motivations and morals, and this Headscratcher is about whether Snape was good or merely did good things because of some reasons, even though he didn't believe in it.




[[/folder]]

[[folder:Byronic]]



*** Isolation: nope. He is introverted, and doesn't like making friends, but he's not isolated. He's still friendly enough with his "old crew" well before Voldemort's return. Introspective? not at all, or else he'd be able to recognize his own biases, and he has ''plenty'' of biases. We don't even get to see his thought processes, anyways. Dwells on pain- sure, but that just goes with being cynical and jaded. Passionate- unless you mean "short-tempered," then no. "Cold" and "bitter" are more apt descriptions when he's not wearing leather pants. Atonement? He's not searching for atonement. You don't atone for driving away the girl you love and directing a madman to her murder by verbally abusing her son. He's out for revenge against Voldemort, and he's Slytherin to the bone. Cunning, deception, and the drive to get what he wants- Voldemort dead. ''He is not rebelling against society. He is not living out a socially-questionable philosophy.'' Just because he's a bad person who ends up doing something heroic does not make him a ByronicHero. And here's the litmus test- is he doing evil because he's evil, or ''only'' because it's necessary for a greater good? How does making fun of Neville or crushing Hermione's self-esteem help make the world a better place?
**** It doesn't. He's a huge dick; I acknowledge that - so does Rowling, and even Snape himself, in the end. What he did to Neville, Hermione and Harry was just him being an immature {{Jerkass}} I meant passionate as in passionate about his beliefs, which he clearly was, or he wouldn't be willing to fight for the Order.(And now you'll probably say that he only did that because of Lily, to which I answer; no, he didn't. He got into it when Lily died, because he saw how batshit insane Voldemort really was, but he did want to fight to the end and stop the Death Eaters.) Byronic heroes are never kind or unconditionally good; the trope name comes from Lord fucking Byron, guys.
**** I never said Snape needed to be ''good''. He just needs a good reason for being bad. Which he doesn't have. [[CodeGeass Lelouch]] toys with free will and sacrifices human lives like pawns, and he's clearly doing evil- but he's doing it in order to topple another evil empire. He's a cold, manipulative jerkass because he sees everyone and everything as a potential resource in his fight against the empire. Snape, however, is a jerkass because he's a playground bully in an adult's body. Also, if you're going to dispute "Snape fought against Voldemort because of Lily" then you're going to have to take it up with [[{{Canon}} J. K. Rowling]]. It's almost stated explicitly in "The Prince's Tale" chapter of DH, i think. Dumbledore keeps reminding him "Do it for Lily!" whenever the going gets tough.
**** Playground bully? Really? I don't know what you think, but I would call that victim-blaming. And comparing Snape to a dude who is willing to sacrifice the lives of innocents is pretty unfair. And no. If Snape was only doing it for Lily, then he would be manipulating people behind the shadows and being too cowardly to go out and fight. Because that's what he does best, but he just chooses not to. And that is why he's mentioned as the bravest man Harry ever knew, I think. He didn't want to, but he did it anyway, because Voldemort needed to be stopped.
**** Yes. Really. Because there is no other way to describe how he treated the students. I like how you concentrate only on his noble aspects and [[DracoInLeatherPants conveniently forget 6 books of straight-up BULLYING.]] And I don't see how you can jump from "Snape did it for Lily" does not lead to "He will fight directly against the man that killed her." It's a perfectly logical explanation that is supported by canon. Your idea that he's actually capable of being a Dumbledore-esque mastermind manipulator is likely a fanon interpretation.
**** By your wording, you are portraying him as some kind of Draco Malfoy type who did everything ForTheEvulz. That is my main problem with your theory. He was an asshole, and his treatment of his non-Slytherin students was horrible, but you have to remember that he was the product of a lifetime of emotional abuse. He was not quite as good at ThePlan as Dumbledore was, but you have to remember that this guy managed to convince Voldemort that he was a loyal Death Eater. For years.
**** What you don't seem to understand is that people react to abuse and bullying differently. While some brush it off and mature, some are greatly effected by their bullying and abuse and their emotions and how they treat people as well as their confidence is greatly affected ( even Alan Rickman said that Snape felt he needed to have respect, and he felt the character was insecure). I will admit that Snape was a bad teacher and I think he would have been happier with a job in a private lab in St. Mungos or something, and while I will admit, or mostly I see him as forever, emotionally and maturity wise, stuck as a seventeen year old boy. Also he is not evil and in the last book there are so many things he did for Harry and others that, if he was evil or the bad guy, he didn't need to do. If he was so evil then why, after killing Dumbledore and after everyone thinks he was evil and he had complete control over the school did he even bother helping the Trio or the students? (Like sending Ginny and Luna to Hagrid as punishment). If he had been caught then he would have most likely been put to death or at least tortured. Furthermore if he was bad then why obey Dumbledore at all? Dumbledore is nothing more then a painting and can't do anything. Besides even JK said "there are no truly good and evil people in my books, except for Voldemort" or something like that, during an interview. The thing is not one single character is all good or all bad but a mix of the two. Just like in real life people are shades of grey. - Silver Doe
----

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*** ** Isolation: nope. He is introverted, and doesn't like making friends, but he's not isolated. He's still friendly enough with his "old crew" well before Voldemort's return. Introspective? not at all, or else he'd be able to recognize his own biases, and he has ''plenty'' of biases. We don't even get to see his thought processes, anyways. Dwells on pain- sure, but that just goes with being cynical and jaded. Passionate- unless you mean "short-tempered," then no. "Cold" and "bitter" are more apt descriptions when he's not wearing leather pants. Atonement? He's not searching for atonement. You don't atone for driving away the girl you love and directing a madman to her murder by verbally abusing her son. He's out for revenge against Voldemort, and he's Slytherin to the bone. Cunning, deception, and the drive to get what he wants- Voldemort dead. ''He is not rebelling against society. He is not living out a socially-questionable philosophy.'' Just because he's a bad person who ends up doing something heroic does not make him a ByronicHero. And here's the litmus test- is he doing evil because he's evil, or ''only'' because it's necessary for a greater good? How does making fun of Neville or crushing Hermione's self-esteem help make the world a better place?
**** ** It doesn't. He's a huge dick; I acknowledge that - so does Rowling, and even Snape himself, in the end. What he did to Neville, Hermione and Harry was just him being an immature {{Jerkass}} I meant passionate as in passionate about his beliefs, which he clearly was, or he wouldn't be willing to fight for the Order.(And now you'll probably say that he only did that because of Lily, to which I answer; no, he didn't. He got into it when Lily died, because he saw how batshit insane Voldemort really was, but he did want to fight to the end and stop the Death Eaters.) Byronic heroes are never kind or unconditionally good; the trope name comes from Lord fucking Byron, guys.
**** ** I never said Snape needed to be ''good''. He just needs a good reason for being bad. Which he doesn't have. [[CodeGeass Lelouch]] toys with free will and sacrifices human lives like pawns, and he's clearly doing evil- but he's doing it in order to topple another evil empire. He's a cold, manipulative jerkass because he sees everyone and everything as a potential resource in his fight against the empire. Snape, however, is a jerkass because he's a playground bully in an adult's body. Also, if you're going to dispute "Snape fought against Voldemort because of Lily" then you're going to have to take it up with [[{{Canon}} J. K. Rowling]]. It's almost stated explicitly in "The Prince's Tale" chapter of DH, i think. Dumbledore keeps reminding him "Do it for Lily!" whenever the going gets tough.
**** ** Playground bully? Really? I don't know what you think, but I would call that victim-blaming. And comparing Snape to a dude who is willing to sacrifice the lives of innocents is pretty unfair. And no. If Snape was only doing it for Lily, then he would be manipulating people behind the shadows and being too cowardly to go out and fight. Because that's what he does best, but he just chooses not to. And that is why he's mentioned as the bravest man Harry ever knew, I think. He didn't want to, but he did it anyway, because Voldemort needed to be stopped.
**** ** Yes. Really. Because there is no other way to describe how he treated the students. I like how you concentrate only on his noble aspects and [[DracoInLeatherPants conveniently forget 6 books of straight-up BULLYING.]] And I don't see how you can jump from "Snape did it for Lily" does not lead to "He will fight directly against the man that killed her." It's a perfectly logical explanation that is supported by canon. Your idea that he's actually capable of being a Dumbledore-esque mastermind manipulator is likely a fanon interpretation.
**** ** By your wording, you are portraying him as some kind of Draco Malfoy type who did everything ForTheEvulz. That is my main problem with your theory. He was an asshole, and his treatment of his non-Slytherin students was horrible, but you have to remember that he was the product of a lifetime of emotional abuse. He was not quite as good at ThePlan as Dumbledore was, but you have to remember that this guy managed to convince Voldemort that he was a loyal Death Eater. For years.
**** ** What you don't seem to understand is that people react to abuse and bullying differently. While some brush it off and mature, some are greatly effected by their bullying and abuse and their emotions and how they treat people as well as their confidence is greatly affected ( even Alan Rickman said that Snape felt he needed to have respect, and he felt the character was insecure). I will admit that Snape was a bad teacher and I think he would have been happier with a job in a private lab in St. Mungos or something, and while I will admit, or mostly I see him as forever, emotionally and maturity wise, stuck as a seventeen year old boy. Also he is not evil and in the last book there are so many things he did for Harry and others that, if he was evil or the bad guy, he didn't need to do. If he was so evil then why, after killing Dumbledore and after everyone thinks he was evil and he had complete control over the school did he even bother helping the Trio or the students? (Like sending Ginny and Luna to Hagrid as punishment). If he had been caught then he would have most likely been put to death or at least tortured. Furthermore if he was bad then why obey Dumbledore at all? Dumbledore is nothing more then a painting and can't do anything. Besides even JK said "there are no truly good and evil people in my books, except for Voldemort" or something like that, during an interview. The thing is not one single character is all good or all bad but a mix of the two. Just like in real life people are shades of grey. - Silver Doe
----
Doe

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Morally grey]]



*** I think that Snape's personality, whether or not he's a hero, good, bad, evil, etc. really depends on the person. Some people think he's good and others think he's bad. So I just propose that we agree that Snape, and who he really is, depends on the person and their definition or opinion of what makes a person good or bad or what makes a person a hero.

to:

*** ** I think that Snape's personality, whether or not he's a hero, good, bad, evil, etc. really depends on the person. Some people think he's good and others think he's bad. So I just propose that we agree that Snape, and who he really is, depends on the person and their definition or opinion of what makes a person good or bad or what makes a person a hero.



*** Actually a Patronus can only change because of true love. Yes his love was selfish but she was the only person (for a while) that seemed to be the only one to care about him and the only light in his abused and dark world. As for the remorse then yes, he felt remorse for something that was largely not his fault. Voldy was after them long before the prophecy and it was Wormtail who blabbed the location thus enabling them to be found. I think the Potters would have died without the prophecy anyways in time. But because of Snape we have the series so that's a plus. About the stag....it doesn't represent his personality. Lily's was a doe and he loved her thus the doe. Another animal would have to represent his personality like a fox, cat, falcon, wolf, etc.
**** Buck and Doe go together, as do Stag and Hind.
**** Snape may have grown up in an "abused and dark world", but the choices he made were his own. While he genuinely did care for Lily, mostly it was a selfish love. Snape bears more credit for the Potters death than the above poster gives him. He was the one who accidentally gave Voldemort the prophecy, after all. There's also no indication that he would of cared if Voldemort had gone after the Longbottoms instead, There's no way of determining what the Potters' fate would of been without the prophecy. It's equally as likely that they would have survived. Actually, because of Harry we have the series. Snape was just the messenger.
***** Actually no. If you read carefully it states that the Potters were already being targeted by Voldemort. Thrice defied remember? all the prophecy did was piss him off more. But prophecy or not, the Potters were going to most likely die by his hand anyways. And they wouldn't have been found if Wormtail had kept his coward mouth shut. What Snape did do was get Voldy to give Lily the option to move aside thus saving Harry. And about the indication thing. The series is through the eyes of a character: Harry Potter. He didn't seem to want to go into that or think of it so we never found out. We find out why he joined the death eaters and we know that if given a second chance that he wouldn't do it again. If he was really into being a DE then he would have joined again if given a second chance.
****** The Potters weren't specifically targeted until the prophecy. Exactly, thrice defied. The Potters had proved themselves to be very badass. If Voldemort wasn't spending all of his energy on them, they may of had a chance. Yes, Wormtail did betray them, but that doesn't make the Potters any less competent, nor does it mitigate the fact that Snape indirectly led Voldemort there. Snape did initially believe in the cause, as he didn't find anything wrong with his Slytherin friends playing cruel jokes on Muggleborns like Mary [=MacDonald=]. The only time he got upset about it was when the muggleborn in question was Lily. I do agree that after Lily died, he seemed to have lost his taste for racism.
******* I think the problem was more along the lines of Severus did nothing to stop his friends but that doesn't mean he participated either. I think what pissed Lily off is the fact that Severus didn't do anything about his 'friends' but honestly can he afford to have the whole school against him? this, however, does not excuse his lack of action. Not doing anything is just as bad as doing something. But I think his logic was 'the marauders hex and hurt me and others and apparently that's okay. So why is it bad for us to do what they do?' Fun fact though, both his 'friends' and the marauders hexed people. But for some reason the marauders hexing of both Snape and innocent bystanders is less bad then what the Slytherins do. I always found that double standard to be quite queer and unfair. As a child Snape was not an angel but then again neither were the marauders, actually no one is innocent at all, but that's how life works. As children and teens our minds and emotions are everywhere. Unfortunately Snape had an anger problem and after loosing lily (mostly his fault) I guess he just snapped. Adult Snape did drop his racism and truthfully his reasons for joining were not what you expect. He joined because he wanted acceptance and was insecure (this still does not excuse his joining). The adult Snape has problems, very big mental and emotional problems but hes also brave, loyal, I personally don't see him as selfish but apparently it depends on the person. Hes intelligent, powerful, and protective. The thing is that Snape, like everyone else, is not wholly good nor bad. He's shades of grey like everyone else. Hes made bad choices and hes paid for them. Snape is to blame partially for the Potters being killed (like you said) but he knows this and has suffered for it. Sorry if this sounds like I'm excusing his actions. I'm not. I'm just trying to explain them and understand them.
******** I never said that Snape participated. What I said that he didn't see anything wrong with it unless Lily was the one being attacked. It would would be a vast overstatement to say the the whole school would be against him if he stood up for the muggle-borns. Slytherin might not be happy with him, but I don't understand why the other houses would. Like you say, social expectation does not excuse his actions. The Marauders did hex people, but they mostly grew out of it by seventh year. Besides which, they're not an excuse for not doing the right thing and they did not take away Snape's ability to think for himself. In the end, Snape made his own choices and he has to live with them.
********* I already addressed why he saw nothing wrong with it. Everyone thinks what the marauders do is OK and is funny. So why is what his friends do seen as bad when they do the same things the Marauders do? If people don't find anything wrong with a certain action or actions then you don't find a problem with it either. When he was hanging upside down who, in the group that gathered, bothered to help? Who do we hear about that helps him or tries to stop the bullying other then Lily? we don't. So we can make the assumption that the houses or the majority of people didn't like or care for Snape. You could say that the assumption means nothing since we don't see much of anything but still, the only person who defends him is lily and that's one person out of a whole school. So all he has is Slytherin and probably is getting enough crap for defending Lily so if he stops pleasing them then who does he have? the only thing that will change is that he will be sleeping in a dorm filled with people who hate him and he would still get bullied since much of the Marauders bullying was because of James' jealously of Snape for Lily. It doesn't excuse his actions but it definitely influences the actions of a person. JK said, in regards to why he joined the death eaters: "Given his time over again Snape would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.... He was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought Lily would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater." You would be surprised what bullying and abuse and constant humiliation does to someone. Especially when that one person looses his only friend and is completely and utterly alone. Even Alan said "Snape is a very lonely man, who lives a very lonely life". Snape does live with his choices and he is fully aware of his mistakes in the books. He's got so much self loathing and depression that I'm surprised he hast killed himself yet. Also why did JK, when he is called one of the abandoned boys, say he found a home in Hogwarts? how was Hogwarts a home at all for him. All I saw was that it brought him suffering, misery, and the loss of his one friend. I think that he sometimes wishes he was never a wizard or maybe he wished he was never born. Once again, he is a dick and very fucked up mentally. Im not excusing his actions, I'm just explaining them or trying to.
********** I already knew why he thought there was nothing wrong with his friends picking on Muggle-borns. It is a legitimate FreudianExcuse. In the end, though, that's all it is. It's a very sympathetic reason for why he's a JerkAssWoobie. It by no means justifies anything that he did, but it does explain it.
*********** We both agree then. That's good. :)

to:

*** ** Actually a Patronus can only change because of true love. Yes his love was selfish but she was the only person (for a while) that seemed to be the only one to care about him and the only light in his abused and dark world. As for the remorse then yes, he felt remorse for something that was largely not his fault. Voldy was after them long before the prophecy and it was Wormtail who blabbed the location thus enabling them to be found. I think the Potters would have died without the prophecy anyways in time. But because of Snape we have the series so that's a plus. About the stag....it doesn't represent his personality. Lily's was a doe and he loved her thus the doe. Another animal would have to represent his personality like a fox, cat, falcon, wolf, etc.
**** ** Buck and Doe go together, as do Stag and Hind.
**** ** Snape may have grown up in an "abused and dark world", but the choices he made were his own. While he genuinely did care for Lily, mostly it was a selfish love. Snape bears more credit for the Potters death than the above poster gives him. He was the one who accidentally gave Voldemort the prophecy, after all. There's also no indication that he would of cared if Voldemort had gone after the Longbottoms instead, There's no way of determining what the Potters' fate would of been without the prophecy. It's equally as likely that they would have survived. Actually, because of Harry we have the series. Snape was just the messenger.
***** ** Actually no. If you read carefully it states that the Potters were already being targeted by Voldemort. Thrice defied remember? all the prophecy did was piss him off more. But prophecy or not, the Potters were going to most likely die by his hand anyways. And they wouldn't have been found if Wormtail had kept his coward mouth shut. What Snape did do was get Voldy to give Lily the option to move aside thus saving Harry. And about the indication thing. The series is through the eyes of a character: Harry Potter. He didn't seem to want to go into that or think of it so we never found out. We find out why he joined the death eaters and we know that if given a second chance that he wouldn't do it again. If he was really into being a DE then he would have joined again if given a second chance.
****** ** The Potters weren't specifically targeted until the prophecy. Exactly, thrice defied. The Potters had proved themselves to be very badass. If Voldemort wasn't spending all of his energy on them, they may of had a chance. Yes, Wormtail did betray them, but that doesn't make the Potters any less competent, nor does it mitigate the fact that Snape indirectly led Voldemort there. Snape did initially believe in the cause, as he didn't find anything wrong with his Slytherin friends playing cruel jokes on Muggleborns like Mary [=MacDonald=]. The only time he got upset about it was when the muggleborn in question was Lily. I do agree that after Lily died, he seemed to have lost his taste for racism.
******* ** I think the problem was more along the lines of Severus did nothing to stop his friends but that doesn't mean he participated either. I think what pissed Lily off is the fact that Severus didn't do anything about his 'friends' but honestly can he afford to have the whole school against him? this, however, does not excuse his lack of action. Not doing anything is just as bad as doing something. But I think his logic was 'the marauders hex and hurt me and others and apparently that's okay. So why is it bad for us to do what they do?' Fun fact though, both his 'friends' and the marauders hexed people. But for some reason the marauders hexing of both Snape and innocent bystanders is less bad then what the Slytherins do. I always found that double standard to be quite queer and unfair. As a child Snape was not an angel but then again neither were the marauders, actually no one is innocent at all, but that's how life works. As children and teens our minds and emotions are everywhere. Unfortunately Snape had an anger problem and after loosing lily (mostly his fault) I guess he just snapped. Adult Snape did drop his racism and truthfully his reasons for joining were not what you expect. He joined because he wanted acceptance and was insecure (this still does not excuse his joining). The adult Snape has problems, very big mental and emotional problems but hes also brave, loyal, I personally don't see him as selfish but apparently it depends on the person. Hes intelligent, powerful, and protective. The thing is that Snape, like everyone else, is not wholly good nor bad. He's shades of grey like everyone else. Hes made bad choices and hes paid for them. Snape is to blame partially for the Potters being killed (like you said) but he knows this and has suffered for it. Sorry if this sounds like I'm excusing his actions. I'm not. I'm just trying to explain them and understand them.
******** ** I never said that Snape participated. What I said that he didn't see anything wrong with it unless Lily was the one being attacked. It would would be a vast overstatement to say the the whole school would be against him if he stood up for the muggle-borns. Slytherin might not be happy with him, but I don't understand why the other houses would. Like you say, social expectation does not excuse his actions. The Marauders did hex people, but they mostly grew out of it by seventh year. Besides which, they're not an excuse for not doing the right thing and they did not take away Snape's ability to think for himself. In the end, Snape made his own choices and he has to live with them.
********* ** I already addressed why he saw nothing wrong with it. Everyone thinks what the marauders do is OK and is funny. So why is what his friends do seen as bad when they do the same things the Marauders do? If people don't find anything wrong with a certain action or actions then you don't find a problem with it either. When he was hanging upside down who, in the group that gathered, bothered to help? Who do we hear about that helps him or tries to stop the bullying other then Lily? we don't. So we can make the assumption that the houses or the majority of people didn't like or care for Snape. You could say that the assumption means nothing since we don't see much of anything but still, the only person who defends him is lily and that's one person out of a whole school. So all he has is Slytherin and probably is getting enough crap for defending Lily so if he stops pleasing them then who does he have? the only thing that will change is that he will be sleeping in a dorm filled with people who hate him and he would still get bullied since much of the Marauders bullying was because of James' jealously of Snape for Lily. It doesn't excuse his actions but it definitely influences the actions of a person. JK said, in regards to why he joined the death eaters: "Given his time over again Snape would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.... He was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought Lily would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater." You would be surprised what bullying and abuse and constant humiliation does to someone. Especially when that one person looses his only friend and is completely and utterly alone. Even Alan said "Snape is a very lonely man, who lives a very lonely life". Snape does live with his choices and he is fully aware of his mistakes in the books. He's got so much self loathing and depression that I'm surprised he hast killed himself yet. Also why did JK, when he is called one of the abandoned boys, say he found a home in Hogwarts? how was Hogwarts a home at all for him. All I saw was that it brought him suffering, misery, and the loss of his one friend. I think that he sometimes wishes he was never a wizard or maybe he wished he was never born. Once again, he is a dick and very fucked up mentally. Im not excusing his actions, I'm just explaining them or trying to.
********** ** I already knew why he thought there was nothing wrong with his friends picking on Muggle-borns. It is a legitimate FreudianExcuse. In the end, though, that's all it is. It's a very sympathetic reason for why he's a JerkAssWoobie. It by no means justifies anything that he did, but it does explain it.
*********** ** We both agree then. That's good. :)good.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ambiguous]]



*** We know he's a terrible teacher. The problem is that he doesn't want or like being one and he's a genius so when Neville screws something up that he finds as easy as walking then he's gonna loose his shit. Snape has no patience for the slow, the lazy, or failure. Also Snape is teaching how he knows how to which is: post instructions and go make a potion. Its a terrible way to do things but its how he does things.(plus potions is easy for him so most screw ups are going to drive him up a wall) Now with Harry JK said that Harry would forever suck at Occlumency because you have to control and empty your emotions which is something Harry can not do. Also Snape can only teach and tell someone how to do something as he knows how. Like if I'm gonna teach you how to sing then you would have a difficult time because it would be hard for me to teach what is so natural to me. Snape told him to 'control his emotions' 'empty his mind' and that's what you have to do. That's how Occlumency is done. He told Harry every day to empty his mind before bed (think of nothing, empty all emotions) but Harry was so filled with hate and other emotions that he refused to cooperate. Teaching someone Occlumency is really, really, hard. Especially when said person can't empty emotions (like Harry) but when you teach a person like Draco Malfoy or Snape then it's easier because they can empty emotions. Also Harry should be more respectful and not go snooping in other peoples things. It's rude to go snooping into peoples things and Snape shouldn't have to constantly worry about locking his pensive away when a kid as old as Harry is old enough to know how to respect peoples things. Just because Dumbledore is cool with him being a snoop does not make everyone else cool with it, you know?
**** Again, that is not Neville's fault. Snape has no right to take his anger out on an innocent child. Bullying children who you have that kind of power over is no way sympathetic or justifiable. As for Harry, yes, he shouldn't have been sneaking into Snape's things. It's not that Harry's filled with hate; it's that he has a lot of unresolved anger. His guardians are abusive, there's a powerful individual who wants him dead and can get inside his head, and he has to deal with murder attempts every year. Not to mention that he witnessed a murder and an entire society is accusing him of being a liar. It really doesn't help that Harry doesn't trust Snape due to the the fact that Snape goes out of his way to make him miserable. However, Snape is still the teacher and Harry is still the student. The student's job is to learn and the teacher's job is to teach effectively and help provide a safe learning environment. How Snape taught Harry was the equilivant of a karate teacher telling his new student to defend himself and then beating him up. Snape failed to set boundries and guidelines. What Snape should of done is first giving Harry the mental equilviant of katas or exercizes.
***** I didn't say that was Neville's fault. Snape is a very mentally damaged character with little to no patience for people who are slow (by his definition) and who is a genius who hates teaching and children. Not everyone can become a teacher because not everyone is suited to becoming one. To be a teacher you must have patience, you must have somewhat of a liking or tolerance of children and you must be able to teach properly. All of which Snape is incapable of doing. I have no idea what Albus was thinking but putting him into a private lab in St.Mungos would have been a better choice instead of making him a teacher. Anyways onto Harry. The problem with Harry, even Hermonie acknowledges this in book 5, is that when Harry doesn't like someone he really shuts down. ("Hermione, I canít. You know Iím lousy at Occlumency. I never got the hang of it." "You never really tried!")Snape does the same thing. If Albus wanted a proper teacher for Harry in Occlumency (a branch of magic he still wouldn't be able to learn because according to JK: "Harryís problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories") then he should have taught him. Albus knows there is this anger and hate between them, he knows Snape has no patience and he most likely knows that Snape can only teach this magic one way. IE the only way he knows how which is shutting down all emotion and basically avoiding them. Harry can't do that and I'm sure that Albus would have been able to teach him a different way that would work for him. (a different branch of magic) But Occlumency was never going to be able to be taught to him. The only exercise for Occlumency is: "shut down your mind and all emotion" it's a one way street and one way exercise and Harry was given it but never really tried. Now Harry is also reckless and doesn't think before doing. A lot of the danger Harry is in or finds himself in is because he doesn't think and just charges into situations and this usually results in the death of others or people getting hurt. I think Snape has a bit of hate (more then he has you know) because Harry is constantly disobeying rules and getting himself into danger and that is a slap in the face to the people who are trying to protect him and a slap in the face to Lily who gave her life for him. It's certainly why I don't like Harry. Both have anger and both have issues. Putting them together was a horrible idea and it leaves me to ask Albus once again 'what were you thinking?'

to:

*** ** We know he's a terrible teacher. The problem is that he doesn't want or like being one and he's a genius so when Neville screws something up that he finds as easy as walking then he's gonna loose his shit. Snape has no patience for the slow, the lazy, or failure. Also Snape is teaching how he knows how to which is: post instructions and go make a potion. Its a terrible way to do things but its how he does things.(plus potions is easy for him so most screw ups are going to drive him up a wall) Now with Harry JK said that Harry would forever suck at Occlumency because you have to control and empty your emotions which is something Harry can not do. Also Snape can only teach and tell someone how to do something as he knows how. Like if I'm gonna teach you how to sing then you would have a difficult time because it would be hard for me to teach what is so natural to me. Snape told him to 'control his emotions' 'empty his mind' and that's what you have to do. That's how Occlumency is done. He told Harry every day to empty his mind before bed (think of nothing, empty all emotions) but Harry was so filled with hate and other emotions that he refused to cooperate. Teaching someone Occlumency is really, really, hard. Especially when said person can't empty emotions (like Harry) but when you teach a person like Draco Malfoy or Snape then it's easier because they can empty emotions. Also Harry should be more respectful and not go snooping in other peoples things. It's rude to go snooping into peoples things and Snape shouldn't have to constantly worry about locking his pensive away when a kid as old as Harry is old enough to know how to respect peoples things. Just because Dumbledore is cool with him being a snoop does not make everyone else cool with it, you know?
**** ** Again, that is not Neville's fault. Snape has no right to take his anger out on an innocent child. Bullying children who you have that kind of power over is no way sympathetic or justifiable. As for Harry, yes, he shouldn't have been sneaking into Snape's things. It's not that Harry's filled with hate; it's that he has a lot of unresolved anger. His guardians are abusive, there's a powerful individual who wants him dead and can get inside his head, and he has to deal with murder attempts every year. Not to mention that he witnessed a murder and an entire society is accusing him of being a liar. It really doesn't help that Harry doesn't trust Snape due to the the fact that Snape goes out of his way to make him miserable. However, Snape is still the teacher and Harry is still the student. The student's job is to learn and the teacher's job is to teach effectively and help provide a safe learning environment. How Snape taught Harry was the equilivant of a karate teacher telling his new student to defend himself and then beating him up. Snape failed to set boundries and guidelines. What Snape should of done is first giving Harry the mental equilviant of katas or exercizes.
***** ** I didn't say that was Neville's fault. Snape is a very mentally damaged character with little to no patience for people who are slow (by his definition) and who is a genius who hates teaching and children. Not everyone can become a teacher because not everyone is suited to becoming one. To be a teacher you must have patience, you must have somewhat of a liking or tolerance of children and you must be able to teach properly. All of which Snape is incapable of doing. I have no idea what Albus was thinking but putting him into a private lab in St.Mungos would have been a better choice instead of making him a teacher. Anyways onto Harry. The problem with Harry, even Hermonie acknowledges this in book 5, is that when Harry doesn't like someone he really shuts down. ("Hermione, I canít. You know Iím lousy at Occlumency. I never got the hang of it." "You never really tried!")Snape does the same thing. If Albus wanted a proper teacher for Harry in Occlumency (a branch of magic he still wouldn't be able to learn because according to JK: "Harryís problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories") then he should have taught him. Albus knows there is this anger and hate between them, he knows Snape has no patience and he most likely knows that Snape can only teach this magic one way. IE the only way he knows how which is shutting down all emotion and basically avoiding them. Harry can't do that and I'm sure that Albus would have been able to teach him a different way that would work for him. (a different branch of magic) But Occlumency was never going to be able to be taught to him. The only exercise for Occlumency is: "shut down your mind and all emotion" it's a one way street and one way exercise and Harry was given it but never really tried. Now Harry is also reckless and doesn't think before doing. A lot of the danger Harry is in or finds himself in is because he doesn't think and just charges into situations and this usually results in the death of others or people getting hurt. I think Snape has a bit of hate (more then he has you know) because Harry is constantly disobeying rules and getting himself into danger and that is a slap in the face to the people who are trying to protect him and a slap in the face to Lily who gave her life for him. It's certainly why I don't like Harry. Both have anger and both have issues. Putting them together was a horrible idea and it leaves me to ask Albus once again 'what were you thinking?'




[[/folder]]

[[folder:Resurrection]]




[[/folder]]

[[folder:Prophecy]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Character development]]



* How is risking your life for the sake of someone else selfish?
* I've seen people berate Snape for wanting to let Harry and James die instead of Lily, but it's not like he could have gone to Voldemort and asked him to spare her or anything, unless I missed something. I'm honestly asking, what else could he have done? It probably would have killed him. Dumbledore, in his judgment on the hilltop, was being a deliberate prick in several ways when Severus came to him. If Severus hadnít asked Voldemort to spare Lily, the Sacrificial Protection Charm would not have worked because there wouldíve been no reason for Voldemort to have given Lily the choice to step aside.

to:

* ** How is risking your life for the sake of someone else selfish?
* ** I've seen people berate Snape for wanting to let Harry and James die instead of Lily, but it's not like he could have gone to Voldemort and asked him to spare her or anything, unless I missed something. I'm honestly asking, what else could he have done? It probably would have killed him. Dumbledore, in his judgment on the hilltop, was being a deliberate prick in several ways when Severus came to him. If Severus hadnít asked Voldemort to spare Lily, the Sacrificial Protection Charm would not have worked because there wouldíve been no reason for Voldemort to have given Lily the choice to step aside.



In conclusion: Snape is an extremely complex character, whose main flaws are due to a broken childhood, sustaining great losses, and poor life choices. He does good, but grudgingly and at the behest of others, not of his own accord. He is also a social cripple with intense psychological problems and several disturbing habits.

to:

In conclusion: Snape is an extremely complex character, whose main flaws are due to a broken childhood, sustaining great losses, and poor life choices. He does good, but grudgingly and at the behest of others, not of his own accord. He is also a social cripple with intense psychological problems and several disturbing habits.
[[/folder]]
13th Sep '15 6:15:38 AM MarchVee
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**** Also, in PoA, Neville, who is a thirteen-year-old boy, fears Snape, his TEACHER, above all else, so much that he was terrified at the prospect of facing him (evidenced by his boggart). You are not supposed to terrify your students that much. That is abusive.

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**** Also, in PoA, ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndThePrisonerOfAzkaban The Prisoner of Azkaban]]'', Neville, who is a thirteen-year-old boy, fears Snape, his TEACHER, above all else, so much that he was terrified at the prospect of facing him (evidenced by his boggart). You are not supposed to terrify your students that much. That is abusive.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.HarryPotterAndTheDeathlyHallowsSeverusSnapeGoodOrBad