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Changed line(s) 65 (click to see context) from:
** Shuyin has become like Yu Yevon, who lost all humanity and was sustained only by his 'programming' to operate Sin.
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** Shuyin has become like Yu Yevon, who lost all humanity and was sustained only by his 'programming' to operate Sin.Sin.
* Why did the creators of Vegnagun never use it against Sin? It would seem to me that using the continent-destroying superweapon against the local equivalent of Godzilla would be the smart thing to do in order to prevent all the mass destruction and chaos that Sin was causing. We see in one of the flashbacks that Vegnagun's main weapon is unbelievably powerful and capable of planetary-level destruction, so it would seem ideal for taking out Sin and Yevon.
** Several reasons. First of all, it is highly unpredictable. Once it is activated it can't distinguish between its enemies. So they might make it go after Sin but it could turn around and destroy the rest of Spira. Also it's been hidden underneath Bevelle for over a thousand years so very few people knew about it. And also Yevon have been spouting the "machina are bad" laws for years. If Sin doesn't get destroyed then they're exposed as hypocrites.
** Not to mention that by the time the religion of Yevon was established, they didn't really want Sin to be killed forever.
** Because Vegnagun could easily prove to be worse than Sin. Sure, they could destroy Sin with it, but they might destroy the whole world in the process. CrossingTheStreams is something you simply do not attempt- Sin may kill a lot of people, but at least there will be survivors, which there might not be after Vegnagun's rampage is over.
*** Putting it another way: Sin is manageable. Send Summoners to be a form of sacrifice; bam, a few years of peace. Vegnagun could theoretically permakill Sin, but especially for people like those of Yevon, they'd rather deal with a practical natural disaster on-off and force summoners to sacrifice themselves for peace than unleash what is essentially a potential nuke: if it doesn't go how you want it, well... the world ends.
* Why is Shuyin's spirit stuck in the Den of Woe? Initial theories pretty much came down to 'he was buried/killed there.' No, Vegnagun was in Bevelle, and he and Lenne were shot right in front of it. Why would they bury the guy in a cave that's nearly 3/4 of the entire map of Spira away?
** The Bevelle authorities knew Shuyin's enormous [[ThePowerOfHate hatred-based willpower]] (that it can resist even the most elaborate sending ceremony) can haunt Spira for a very long time, so they were CrazyPrepared to contain his body and unsent soul in an obscure place instead of simply sending it to the Farplane.
* Why did the creators of Vegnagun never use it against Sin? It would seem to me that using the continent-destroying superweapon against the local equivalent of Godzilla would be the smart thing to do in order to prevent all the mass destruction and chaos that Sin was causing. We see in one of the flashbacks that Vegnagun's main weapon is unbelievably powerful and capable of planetary-level destruction, so it would seem ideal for taking out Sin and Yevon.
** Several reasons. First of all, it is highly unpredictable. Once it is activated it can't distinguish between its enemies. So they might make it go after Sin but it could turn around and destroy the rest of Spira. Also it's been hidden underneath Bevelle for over a thousand years so very few people knew about it. And also Yevon have been spouting the "machina are bad" laws for years. If Sin doesn't get destroyed then they're exposed as hypocrites.
** Not to mention that by the time the religion of Yevon was established, they didn't really want Sin to be killed forever.
** Because Vegnagun could easily prove to be worse than Sin. Sure, they could destroy Sin with it, but they might destroy the whole world in the process. CrossingTheStreams is something you simply do not attempt- Sin may kill a lot of people, but at least there will be survivors, which there might not be after Vegnagun's rampage is over.
*** Putting it another way: Sin is manageable. Send Summoners to be a form of sacrifice; bam, a few years of peace. Vegnagun could theoretically permakill Sin, but especially for people like those of Yevon, they'd rather deal with a practical natural disaster on-off and force summoners to sacrifice themselves for peace than unleash what is essentially a potential nuke: if it doesn't go how you want it, well... the world ends.
* Why is Shuyin's spirit stuck in the Den of Woe? Initial theories pretty much came down to 'he was buried/killed there.' No, Vegnagun was in Bevelle, and he and Lenne were shot right in front of it. Why would they bury the guy in a cave that's nearly 3/4 of the entire map of Spira away?
** The Bevelle authorities knew Shuyin's enormous [[ThePowerOfHate hatred-based willpower]] (that it can resist even the most elaborate sending ceremony) can haunt Spira for a very long time, so they were CrazyPrepared to contain his body and unsent soul in an obscure place instead of simply sending it to the Farplane.
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** Less of a troll and more that the Fayth likely didn’t predict they’d be ripped out of their dreamless sleep in the matter of a couple of years by a pissed off ghost. They couldn’t really hand out the option at the time since the dream had to end to get rid of Sin. Bringing back one person for a few decades because you got woken back up a little bit later isn’t really a turn around so much as this is actually an option now, seems likely that the current version of Tidus would only need to be sustained by a single Faith anyway(probably Bahamut’s since he gave the option).
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*** Tidus (and his group) killed the only known way of slowing Sin down. Had his plan of singing at Sin not worked for whatever reason, all of Spira would be doomed. That would count as committing genocide in my book.
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*** ''Last Mission'' clarifies that Shuyin could only control Nooj briefly and once Nooj snapped out of the control, he helped to save those he had just shot, though he didn't understand why he had done what he had done.
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Changed line(s) 36 (click to see context) from:
* She was also an unsent. She did die a sudden and violent death, and maybe she sensed that Shuyin hadn't moved on either. She was sustained by her obsession - which was for him to join her in the afterlife - and maybe went into the sphere to present herself becoming a fiend.
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* She was also an unsent. She did die a sudden and violent death, and maybe she sensed that Shuyin hadn't moved on either. She was sustained by her obsession - which was for him to join her in the afterlife - and maybe went into the sphere to present prevent herself becoming a fiend.
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* I think because Lenne was a summoner, she may have had an idea of the process. So she became a quasi fayth that bonded with the sphere instead of a statue - as she seemed to be able to leave and go to the afterlife at will.
* She was also an unsent. She did die a sudden and violent death, and maybe she sensed that Shuyin hadn't moved on either. She was sustained by her obsession - which was for him to join her in the afterlife - and maybe went into the sphere to present herself becoming a fiend.
* She was also an unsent. She did die a sudden and violent death, and maybe she sensed that Shuyin hadn't moved on either. She was sustained by her obsession - which was for him to join her in the afterlife - and maybe went into the sphere to present herself becoming a fiend.
** Zanarkand was using summoners on the front lines. Vegnagun was created presumably to deal with an army of Aeons that could destroy any of their regular machina in minutes.
** Shuyin didn't seem able to influence anyone while trapped in the Den of Woe, so he didn't possess anyone until the Crimson Squad was in there. He went to Nooj because he was a DeathSeeker and therefore easier to manipulate. And I'd say that being an Unsent for over a thousand years probably dulls his perception of time a bit - so the two years between the two games must have been a drop in the bucket. I think maybe returning to the site of his death might have given him a burst of power - hence why he activates in Nooj and possesses Baralai once they're in the Bevelle Underground. Once he had that power and control, he was able to activate Vegnagun.
Changed line(s) 56 (click to see context) from:
* Shuyin ''has'' forgotten things, like his entire damn conscience. It's just that he hasn't forgotten anything related to the plot, because he's been stuck reliving that one memory of being shot in Bevelle all this time. Outside of his capacity as the BigBad, he probably has no memories at all.
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* Shuyin ''has'' forgotten things, like his entire damn conscience. It's just that he hasn't forgotten anything related to the plot, because he's been stuck reliving that one memory of being shot in Bevelle all this time. Outside of his capacity as the BigBad, he probably has no memories at all.all.
** Shuyin has become like Yu Yevon, who lost all humanity and was sustained only by his 'programming' to operate Sin.
** Shuyin has become like Yu Yevon, who lost all humanity and was sustained only by his 'programming' to operate Sin.
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* The same reason the Crimson Squad had to go into hiding. The Den operation was a ruse so Yevon could get rid of troublesome soldiers by sending them to die, and they wanted to make sure no survivors had escaped. So they told some mooks, "Hey, go count the corpses here and tell us how many there are", so they could compare that number to the amount of soldiers deployed.
Changed line(s) 54 (click to see context) from:
!! A minor one - if Shuyin and Maechen are around the same “age” in terms of their existence as Unsent, why is Maechen the only one forgetting things? If it’s related to how old the person is when they die, then why did Maester Kinoc from X not have any memory problems?
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!! A minor one - if Shuyin and Maechen are around the same “age” in terms of their existence as Unsent, why is Maechen the only one forgetting things? If it’s related to how old the person is when they die, then why did Maester Kinoc from X not have any memory problems?problems?
* Shuyin ''has'' forgotten things, like his entire damn conscience. It's just that he hasn't forgotten anything related to the plot, because he's been stuck reliving that one memory of being shot in Bevelle all this time. Outside of his capacity as the BigBad, he probably has no memories at all.
* Shuyin ''has'' forgotten things, like his entire damn conscience. It's just that he hasn't forgotten anything related to the plot, because he's been stuck reliving that one memory of being shot in Bevelle all this time. Outside of his capacity as the BigBad, he probably has no memories at all.
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Changed line(s) 29 (click to see context) from:
** A twisted version of the OneSteveLimit, Tidus could only exist as a dream while Shuyin existed as a ghost. so once he was defeated/banished, the faith/pyreflies could use the resources it was alocating to both forms to focus on one. thereby making him ARealBoy
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** A twisted version of the OneSteveLimit, Tidus could only exist as a dream while Shuyin existed as a ghost. so once he was defeated/banished, the faith/pyreflies could use the resources it was alocating to both forms to focus on one. thereby making him ARealBoyARealBoy.
** The Fayth have had ''two years'' of sleep at this point. They've probably gained enough energy to wake up and dream again. And they didn't tell Yuna they might be able to resurrect Tidus in the future because that would've interfered with her grieving process.
** The Fayth have had ''two years'' of sleep at this point. They've probably gained enough energy to wake up and dream again. And they didn't tell Yuna they might be able to resurrect Tidus in the future because that would've interfered with her grieving process.
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Changed line(s) 53,54 (click to see context) from:
!! A minor one - if Shuyin and Maechen are around the same “age” in terms of their existence as Unsent, why is Maechen the only one forgetting things? If it’s related to how old the person is when they die, then why did Maester Kinoc from X not have any memory problems?
!! Is it made clear what exactly Shuyin is? I always assumed that he was a regular Unsent, but there’s a lot of stuff on the wiki about how he’s really a ball of pyreflies imprinted with the “real” Shuyin’s despair or something. That said, the wiki also refers to him as Unsent with no extra notes, and in his character folder on ThisVeryWiki it’s stated that the pyreflies imprinted with his despair were in the Den of Woe, but Shuyin became a normal Unsent... help?
!! Is it made clear what exactly Shuyin is? I always assumed that he was a regular Unsent, but there’s a lot of stuff on the wiki about how he’s really a ball of pyreflies imprinted with the “real” Shuyin’s despair or something. That said, the wiki also refers to him as Unsent with no extra notes, and in his character folder on ThisVeryWiki it’s stated that the pyreflies imprinted with his despair were in the Den of Woe, but Shuyin became a normal Unsent... help?
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!! A minor one - if Shuyin and Maechen are around the same “age” in terms of their existence as Unsent, why is Maechen the only one forgetting things? If it’s related to how old the person is when they die, then why did Maester Kinoc from X not have any memory problems?
!! Is it made clear what exactly Shuyin is? I always assumed that he was a regular Unsent, but there’s a lot of stuff on the wiki about how he’s really a ball of pyreflies imprinted with the “real” Shuyin’s despair or something. That said, the wiki also refers to him as Unsent with no extra notes, and in his character folder on ThisVeryWiki it’s stated that the pyreflies imprinted with his despair were in the Den of Woe, but Shuyin became a normal Unsent... help?problems?
!! Is it made clear what exactly Shuyin is? I always assumed that he was a regular Unsent, but there’s a lot of stuff on the wiki about how he’s really a ball of pyreflies imprinted with the “real” Shuyin’s despair or something. That said, the wiki also refers to him as Unsent with no extra notes, and in his character folder on ThisVeryWiki it’s stated that the pyreflies imprinted with his despair were in the Den of Woe, but Shuyin became a normal Unsent... help?
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Changed line(s) 53 (click to see context) from:
!! A minor one - if Shuyin and Maechen are around the same “age” in terms of their existence as Unsent, why is Maechen the only one forgetting things? If it’s related to how old the person is when they die, then why did Maester Kinoc from X not have any memory problems?
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!! A minor one - if Shuyin and Maechen are around the same “age” in terms of their existence as Unsent, why is Maechen the only one forgetting things? If it’s related to how old the person is when they die, then why did Maester Kinoc from X not have any memory problems?problems?
!! Is it made clear what exactly Shuyin is? I always assumed that he was a regular Unsent, but there’s a lot of stuff on the wiki about how he’s really a ball of pyreflies imprinted with the “real” Shuyin’s despair or something. That said, the wiki also refers to him as Unsent with no extra notes, and in his character folder on ThisVeryWiki it’s stated that the pyreflies imprinted with his despair were in the Den of Woe, but Shuyin became a normal Unsent... help?
!! Is it made clear what exactly Shuyin is? I always assumed that he was a regular Unsent, but there’s a lot of stuff on the wiki about how he’s really a ball of pyreflies imprinted with the “real” Shuyin’s despair or something. That said, the wiki also refers to him as Unsent with no extra notes, and in his character folder on ThisVeryWiki it’s stated that the pyreflies imprinted with his despair were in the Den of Woe, but Shuyin became a normal Unsent... help?
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Changed line(s) 53 (click to see context) from:
!! Why does Shuyin keep mistaking Yuna for Lenne until the very end of the game? They’re obviously different people, and I believe it’s outright said that Yuna is not Lenne’s reincarnation, so what’s the deal?
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!! Why does A minor one - if Shuyin keep mistaking Yuna for Lenne until and Maechen are around the very end same “age” in terms of their existence as Unsent, why is Maechen the game? They’re obviously different people, and I believe only one forgetting things? If it’s outright said that Yuna related to how old the person is when they die, then why did Maester Kinoc from X not Lenne’s reincarnation, so what’s the deal?have any memory problems?
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Changed line(s) 53 (click to see context) from:
!! Why does Shuyin keep mistaking Yuna for Lenne until the very end of the game? They’re obviously different people and Word of God said that Yuna is not Lenne’s reincarnation, so what’s the deal?
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!! Why does Shuyin keep mistaking Yuna for Lenne until the very end of the game? They’re obviously different people people, and Word of God I believe it’s outright said that Yuna is not Lenne’s reincarnation, so what’s the deal?
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Changed line(s) 52 (click to see context) from:
*** It's been a decade and a half since I played it, so maybe. Point is, him making him do a thing once does not imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time whenever he wants.
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*** It's been a decade and a half since I played it, so maybe. Point is, him making him do a thing once does not imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time whenever he wants.wants.
!! Why does Shuyin keep mistaking Yuna for Lenne until the very end of the game? They’re obviously different people and Word of God said that Yuna is not Lenne’s reincarnation, so what’s the deal?
!! Why does Shuyin keep mistaking Yuna for Lenne until the very end of the game? They’re obviously different people and Word of God said that Yuna is not Lenne’s reincarnation, so what’s the deal?
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Changed line(s) 51 (click to see context) from:
*** Wasn’t the cutscene where he shoots Baralai and Gippal outside of the Den of Woe? IIRC there was a short amount of time where Nooj was acting out of it during the investigation itself, and the other two (three if you count Paine) told him to snap out of it. Then the scene where Nooj shoots Baralai and Gippal is actually outside the Den of Woe.
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*** Wasn’t the cutscene where he shoots Baralai and Gippal outside of the Den of Woe? IIRC there was a short amount of time where Nooj was acting out of it during the investigation itself, and the other two (three if you count Paine) told him to snap out of it. Then the scene where Nooj shoots Baralai and Gippal is actually outside the Den of Woe.Woe.
*** It's been a decade and a half since I played it, so maybe. Point is, him making him do a thing once does not imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time whenever he wants.
*** It's been a decade and a half since I played it, so maybe. Point is, him making him do a thing once does not imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time whenever he wants.
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Changed line(s) 50 (click to see context) from:
** Fair enough. But that doesn't necessarily imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time; he could take control in that place -- where his soul was -- for that particular thing, but he may not have been able to fully possess him and act for a length of time that you're expecting.
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** Fair enough. But that doesn't necessarily imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time; he could take control in that place -- where his soul was -- for that particular thing, but he may not have been able to fully possess him and act for a length of time that you're expecting.expecting.
*** Wasn’t the cutscene where he shoots Baralai and Gippal outside of the Den of Woe? IIRC there was a short amount of time where Nooj was acting out of it during the investigation itself, and the other two (three if you count Paine) told him to snap out of it. Then the scene where Nooj shoots Baralai and Gippal is actually outside the Den of Woe.
*** Wasn’t the cutscene where he shoots Baralai and Gippal outside of the Den of Woe? IIRC there was a short amount of time where Nooj was acting out of it during the investigation itself, and the other two (three if you count Paine) told him to snap out of it. Then the scene where Nooj shoots Baralai and Gippal is actually outside the Den of Woe.
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Changed line(s) 49 (click to see context) from:
*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe. So clearly it wasn’t just at the end.
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*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe. So clearly it wasn’t just at the end.end.
** Fair enough. But that doesn't necessarily imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time; he could take control in that place -- where his soul was -- for that particular thing, but he may not have been able to fully possess him and act for a length of time that you're expecting.
** Fair enough. But that doesn't necessarily imply that he could take direct control for long periods of time; he could take control in that place -- where his soul was -- for that particular thing, but he may not have been able to fully possess him and act for a length of time that you're expecting.
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Changed line(s) 49 (click to see context) from:
*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe.
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*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe. So clearly it wasn’t just at the end.
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Changed line(s) 49 (click to see context) from:
*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe. He might have done so during that as well, but I don’t remember if it’s made clear whether Shuyin was actually possessing the other members of the squad or they were just going insane.
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*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe. He might have done so during that as well, but I don’t remember if it’s made clear whether Shuyin was actually possessing the other members of the squad or they were just going insane.
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Changed line(s) 48 (click to see context) from:
** And who says he's able to do that? Just because he takes more direct control ''at the end'' does not mean he could have done so at any time.
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** And who says he's able to do that? Just because he takes more direct control ''at the end'' does not mean he could have done so at any time.time.
*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe. He might have done so during that as well, but I don’t remember if it’s made clear whether Shuyin was actually possessing the other members of the squad or they were just going insane.
*** He took direct control when he had Nooj shoot Baralai and Gippal, which was soon after the Crimson Squad investigated the Den of Woe. He might have done so during that as well, but I don’t remember if it’s made clear whether Shuyin was actually possessing the other members of the squad or they were just going insane.
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Changed line(s) 47 (click to see context) from:
** Influencing Nooj into finding the damn sphere quicker and not letting him sit in his tent and angst about how he wants to die?
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** Influencing Nooj into finding the damn sphere quicker and not letting him sit in his tent and angst about how he wants to die?die?
** And who says he's able to do that? Just because he takes more direct control ''at the end'' does not mean he could have done so at any time.
** And who says he's able to do that? Just because he takes more direct control ''at the end'' does not mean he could have done so at any time.
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Changed line(s) 46 (click to see context) from:
* What "more direct route" was there?
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* What "more direct route" was there?there?
** Influencing Nooj into finding the damn sphere quicker and not letting him sit in his tent and angst about how he wants to die?
** Influencing Nooj into finding the damn sphere quicker and not letting him sit in his tent and angst about how he wants to die?
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Changed line(s) 45 (click to see context) from:
!! If Shuyin wants to destroy the world, why did he not take a more direct route instead of “subtly influence Nooj for two whole years to find a superweapon that might not even exist anymore”?
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!! If Shuyin wants to destroy the world, why did he not take a more direct route instead of “subtly influence Nooj for two whole years to find a superweapon that might not even exist anymore”?anymore”?
* What "more direct route" was there?
* What "more direct route" was there?
