1 Days Left to Support a Troper-Created Project : Personal Space (discuss)

History Headscratchers / DoctorWhoSeries5

29th Apr '16 6:49:32 PM TimBuckII
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** Not that it directly answers the question, but I imagine the viewer not knowing when the message was recorded was the entire intention, since the scene is from Amy's point of view, and she is watching a recording she doesn't remember ever making. As for why they allow it in the first place, I'm not sure, but the thinking is most likely, "anyone who would choose Forget wouldn't leave themselves a reminder, and anyone who would leave themselves a reminder wouldn't choose Forget in the first place."
9th Mar '16 9:20:14 AM Hossmeister
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9th Mar '16 9:19:18 AM Hossmeister
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** [[TimeyWimeyBall Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey?]] Alternately, he's like an even better version of DoogieHowserMD.

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** [[TimeyWimeyBall Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey?]] Alternately, he's like an even better version of DoogieHowserMD.Series/DoogieHowserMD.
30th Dec '15 4:05:58 PM Discar
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4th Dec '15 12:07:46 PM doctorwho29
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**I once heard that the Reapers weren't originally going to be in Father's Day but the higher-ups wanted a monster. I can't remember where I heard this but I wish it had happened that way. The universe simply unraveling is problem enough without those beasts complicating all of cannon.
30th Nov '15 9:54:24 AM FF32
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** It's unliklely that it's ''just'' the people who have travelled with the Doctor who remember the stars. "Star Cults" sounds like more than just a few dozen people, and other than Amy the one specific example of someone who remembers stars is a person who has never met the Doctor onscreen (although if you want to get meta, RichardDawkins is married to a Time Lord).

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** It's unliklely that it's ''just'' the people who have travelled with the Doctor who remember the stars. "Star Cults" sounds like more than just a few dozen people, and other than Amy the one specific example of someone who remembers stars is a person who has never met the Doctor onscreen (although if you want to get meta, RichardDawkins UsefulNotes/RichardDawkins is married to a Time Lord).
11th Nov '15 2:57:36 AM DoctorNemesis
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** He ''is'' at least two-thousand years old, and given how many different ages he's thrown around in the series ''and'' how weird his personal timeline is, that's a conservative estimate. That's plenty of time to get some reading done. Also, remember that no matter how busy we see him get, out of his entire lifespan what we see in the the show as a whole adds up to a few hundred hours at most when it's combined together.
11th Nov '15 1:27:49 AM Shaoken
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** StableTimeLoop caused by the universe coming undone. The Doctor escaped from the Pandorica because he gave Rory the Sonic Screwdriver because Rory freed him from the Pandorica. There was no beginning of the loop, that he escaped to begin with is because time and space are collapsing and can't prevent such paradoxes from existing.

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** StableTimeLoop caused by StableTimeLoop, just like in ''The Lodger'' where he finds the universe coming undone. The Doctor escaped from the Pandorica because he gave Rory the Sonic Screwdriver because Rory freed him from the Pandorica. There was no beginning of the loop, that he escaped apartment to begin with is because time Amy wrote him a note after she was rescued while he went to the past to rewrite a will to set up the events that led to him becoming Craig's flatmate and space are collapsing and can't prevent such paradoxes from existing.rescuing Amy. The entire series has had multiple instances of Bootstrap Paradoxes where the Doctor solves a problem because of something he did after he solved the problem.
20th Oct '15 9:30:30 PM bwburke94
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** The TARDIS wasn't just blown up. It was destroyed ''during flight'', ''in a time vortex'', ''by her engines overloading and exploding''. Engines that we now know are powered directly by the Eye of Harmony, a black hole that is in the process of forming but held in stasis by the TARDIS itself. The explosion would have spread the creation of the singularity to every point of spacetime through the time vortex. But during/prior to the Time War the Eye of Harmony was an already created singularity that existed somewhere near Gallifrey, and [=TARDISes] drew their power from it through remote connection. Even if the Daleks could cause an engine overload of a TARDIS inside the Time Vortex, there isn't any creation of a blackhole to be spread throughout reality.

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** The TARDIS wasn't just blown up. It was destroyed ''during flight'', ''in a time vortex'', ''by her engines overloading and exploding''. Engines that we now know are powered directly by the Eye of Harmony, a black hole that is in the process of forming but held in stasis by the TARDIS itself. The explosion would have spread the creation of the singularity to every point of spacetime through the time vortex. But during/prior to the Time War the Eye of Harmony was an already created singularity that existed somewhere near Gallifrey, and [=TARDISes] [=TARDISes=] drew their power from it through remote connection. Even if the Daleks could cause an engine overload of a TARDIS inside the Time Vortex, there isn't any creation of a blackhole to be spread throughout reality.
7th Oct '15 4:40:34 PM Discar
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*** Exactly. The authors wrote them, just like tailors made the clothing in his closet and and factories made the jelly babies in his pockets. The TARDIS is a building that keeps getting remodeled from inside the walls, not ''everything'' in it is a part of it. If that were true, the companions would all be either assimilated, stripped naked the next time the Doctor changed the desktop theme, or not let in in the first place.
**** Well, he's never changed the theme with them in there. Maybe [[PowerPerversionPotential it does strip them]].

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*** ** Exactly. The authors wrote them, just like tailors made the clothing in his closet and and factories made the jelly babies in his pockets. The TARDIS is a building that keeps getting remodeled from inside the walls, not ''everything'' in it is a part of it. If that were true, the companions would all be either assimilated, stripped naked the next time the Doctor changed the desktop theme, or not let in in the first place.
**** ** Well, he's never changed the theme with them in there. Maybe [[PowerPerversionPotential it does strip them]].



*** When Nine first showed up at Rose's house, he picked up a book, flipped through it, and said something about a sad ending. He can just read a book in passing whenever he wants, so how would he NOT have time to read? I think you sort of answered your own question!
*** It depends on the kind of library. Remember in Cluedo/Clue, Dr. Black/Mr. Boddy has a library in his house. Some homes have personal libraries, which can be an office or den with a few bookshelves and a few hundred books, which are easy to read in a normal lifetime.
*** In "Castrovalva" the Fifth Doctor lamented that although he loves books he didn't have much opportunity to read. He could be a bit of a collector; someone who scoops up books he thinks look interesting but never gets around to reading.
**** I do this thing exact thing because I like books and have a short attention span. Now imagine those qualities in someone who can go anywhere in time and space.

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*** ** When Nine first showed up at Rose's house, he picked up a book, flipped through it, and said something about a sad ending. He can just read a book in passing whenever he wants, so how would he NOT have time to read? I think you sort of answered your own question!
*** ** It depends on the kind of library. Remember in Cluedo/Clue, Dr. Black/Mr. Boddy has a library in his house. Some homes have personal libraries, which can be an office or den with a few bookshelves and a few hundred books, which are easy to read in a normal lifetime.
*** ** In "Castrovalva" the Fifth Doctor lamented that although he loves books he didn't have much opportunity to read. He could be a bit of a collector; someone who scoops up books he thinks look interesting but never gets around to reading.
**** ** I do this thing exact thing because I like books and have a short attention span. Now imagine those qualities in someone who can go anywhere in time and space.



*** Does that make the TARDIS essentially a time-travelling caravan?
*** [[InsistentTerminology Sports car]]. The vortex manipulator is the caravan.
**** Actually, I believe they use the term "Space Hopper."
*** You are asking when the man with the ''time machine'' finds time to read. Presumably, whenever he feels like reading for a bit, he can park the TARDIS somewhere/when boring and read for a while, until he wants to do something else. We just don't see that because it wouldn't make good telly.
**** Which is ''exactly'' what we see him doing in the beginning of the 1998 movie. The Doctor, settling in for a long trip, reading a book.
**** Several scenes (Going to the Cliffs in The Pandorica Opens, River's picnic at Asgard, etc) make it fairly clear that The Doctor actually takes them on normal outings most of the time and the adventures, while common, are still kinda the exception to the rule. Chances are, most of the time he takes the companions on perfectly normal holidays and does his reading there.
***** And, with the latter part of the Pond family's time in the TARDIS, he's had who knows how many adventures off screen. The same goes for Clara, since she doesn't just live in there with him. Perhaps 12 is already years old. It would fit with him switching from not being sure if he's a good man, while Clara saying that he tries to be and that's all that matters, to him in the next episode being completely certain he's not a good man. Perhaps between those episodes he committed genocide. Again.

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*** ** Does that make the TARDIS essentially a time-travelling caravan?
*** ** [[InsistentTerminology Sports car]]. The vortex manipulator is the caravan.
**** ** Actually, I believe they use the term "Space Hopper."
*** ** You are asking when the man with the ''time machine'' finds time to read. Presumably, whenever he feels like reading for a bit, he can park the TARDIS somewhere/when boring and read for a while, until he wants to do something else. We just don't see that because it wouldn't make good telly.
**** ** Which is ''exactly'' what we see him doing in the beginning of the 1998 movie. The Doctor, settling in for a long trip, reading a book.
**** ** Several scenes (Going to the Cliffs in The Pandorica Opens, River's picnic at Asgard, etc) make it fairly clear that The Doctor actually takes them on normal outings most of the time and the adventures, while common, are still kinda the exception to the rule. Chances are, most of the time he takes the companions on perfectly normal holidays and does his reading there.
***** ** And, with the latter part of the Pond family's time in the TARDIS, he's had who knows how many adventures off screen. The same goes for Clara, since she doesn't just live in there with him. Perhaps 12 is already years old. It would fit with him switching from not being sure if he's a good man, while Clara saying that he tries to be and that's all that matters, to him in the next episode being completely certain he's not a good man. Perhaps between those episodes he committed genocide. Again.



*** In that case, new question. Why the heck isn't there a conference of all the alien experts when every single device on the planet is receiving a message from a big alien eye? As for being-the-Doctor evidence, uh... he's got psychic paper? Somewhat weak, but UNIT didn't have trouble recognising Ten, right?
**** There probably was an alien-expert conference. And as most people involved would work for secret organizations, the Doctor didn't need that one - he wanted the one with people in the public eye, who could more easily get the virus to spread - Patrick Moore, for one.
**** The paper might not work on them since the six people all on screen have very high [=IQs=] and UNIT recognized Ten since his last companion at the time worked for UNIT
***** Also, they weren't all UNIT.

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*** ** In that case, new question. Why the heck isn't there a conference of all the alien experts when every single device on the planet is receiving a message from a big alien eye? As for being-the-Doctor evidence, uh... he's got psychic paper? Somewhat weak, but UNIT didn't have trouble recognising Ten, right?
**** ** There probably was an alien-expert conference. And as most people involved would work for secret organizations, the Doctor didn't need that one - he wanted the one with people in the public eye, who could more easily get the virus to spread - Patrick Moore, for one.
**** ** The paper might not work on them since the six people all on screen have very high [=IQs=] and UNIT recognized Ten since his last companion at the time worked for UNIT
***** ** Also, they weren't all UNIT.



*** Moffat has stated it's an error that went uncaught
*** Or the episode isn't set when we think it is...
*** You... no! If Moffat genuinely said that was an error, then no. Did you not see the camera phone that he was holding right above the badge? Or the laptop elsewhere? Just... no.
*** Cracks in the universe.
*** Sounds like in-universe Rory's badge had a typo and Rory...being Rory (or at least the impression I get of him) didn't ever get it corrected.
*** It says ''employed'' since 1990. He could have been born at any time before that. But as for the laptop and picture phone... no clue. Just a plot hole, I expect.
*** [[MemeticBadass Rory was talented enough to be a nurse since he was a kid.]]
*** Any time? Amy was established in "The Big Bang" as being born in 1989, with several episodes clearly placing the final scenes of "The Eleventh Hour" as 20 years after 1990 (and the Prisoner Zero scenes 2 years before). It's clear that the production intent was that it was the birth date, given that they're probably about the same age. (His slightly-older actor, for the record would have turned ''8'' in 1990)

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*** ** Moffat has stated it's an error that went uncaught
*** ** Or the episode isn't set when we think it is...
*** ** You... no! If Moffat genuinely said that was an error, then no. Did you not see the camera phone that he was holding right above the badge? Or the laptop elsewhere? Just... no.
*** ** Cracks in the universe.
*** ** Sounds like in-universe Rory's badge had a typo and Rory...being Rory (or at least the impression I get of him) didn't ever get it corrected.
*** ** It says ''employed'' since 1990. He could have been born at any time before that. But as for the laptop and picture phone... no clue. Just a plot hole, I expect.
*** ** [[MemeticBadass Rory was talented enough to be a nurse since he was a kid.]]
*** ** Any time? Amy was established in "The Big Bang" as being born in 1989, with several episodes clearly placing the final scenes of "The Eleventh Hour" as 20 years after 1990 (and the Prisoner Zero scenes 2 years before). It's clear that the production intent was that it was the birth date, given that they're probably about the same age. (His slightly-older actor, for the record would have turned ''8'' in 1990)



*** Since the TARDIS is currently exploding, malfunctioning and out of control, it's likely that the prologue takes place in 2005, then the TARDIS slipped back in time until it ended up in 1996.

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*** ** Since the TARDIS is currently exploding, malfunctioning and out of control, it's likely that the prologue takes place in 2005, then the TARDIS slipped back in time until it ended up in 1996.



*** He even said, "What? Did you think no one was paying attention?" - I'm sure members that enforce the Shadow Proclamation would be very interested to know what they just attempted. I doubt that the Doctor would have hesitated to report it if the Atraxi just up and left without meeting him.

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*** ** He even said, "What? Did you think no one was paying attention?" - I'm sure members that enforce the Shadow Proclamation would be very interested to know what they just attempted. I doubt that the Doctor would have hesitated to report it if the Atraxi just up and left without meeting him.



*** Seriously -- remember when the 456 came back and the Doctor wasn't here to help!
*** Also, they were going to ''burn us all'' just to get rid of one prisoner. Consider burning down an entire secondary school full of kids because there's one escaped convinct inside the building, times that by six billion, couple it with a twenty minute time limit, and you're getting somewhere. Maybe Prisoner Zero is dangerous (and really, he didn't seem particularly Dalek level dangerous to me on a galactic level), but that's still pretty damned extremeist behaviour. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd be pretty hacked off if somebody tried to do that to me.

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*** ** Seriously -- remember when the 456 came back and the Doctor wasn't here to help!
*** ** Also, they were going to ''burn us all'' just to get rid of one prisoner. Consider burning down an entire secondary school full of kids because there's one escaped convinct inside the building, times that by six billion, couple it with a twenty minute time limit, and you're getting somewhere. Maybe Prisoner Zero is dangerous (and really, he didn't seem particularly Dalek level dangerous to me on a galactic level), but that's still pretty damned extremeist behaviour. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd be pretty hacked off if somebody tried to do that to me.



*** Just in ''this'' Regeneration? A good eighty percent of them were crazy and overdramatic! In retrospect, One seems to have been the only generation with a very strong sense of subtlety...

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*** ** Just in ''this'' Regeneration? A good eighty percent of them were crazy and overdramatic! In retrospect, One seems to have been the only generation with a very strong sense of subtlety...



*** He didn't have the time to do it when Prisoner Zero was still on the scene. He was too busy keeping [=P0=] occupied long enough to do it.
*** And he wasn't able to trace the Atraxi signal until they gave him one by beaming up Prisoner Zero.
*** Except that he was clearly able to contact the Atraxi beforehand, since he sends them an MMS with all those photographs of Prisoner Zero - well before the Atraxi ''do'' anything.
*** The way that he "contacts" them is actually far from straightforward--he basically writes a computer virus on the phone, sends it out to get the Atraxi's attention, and lets them trace it back to its source in the phone, where the pictures are. Not exactly the kind of setup where you could ring them with a friendly tip.
*** It does sound like the Doctor couldn't contact them until they'd traced the phone. Which is like not being able to phone someone until they phone you, and then you save the incoming number on your mobile. Also, consider that it's possible to withold your number from somebody.

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*** ** He didn't have the time to do it when Prisoner Zero was still on the scene. He was too busy keeping [=P0=] occupied long enough to do it.
*** ** And he wasn't able to trace the Atraxi signal until they gave him one by beaming up Prisoner Zero.
*** ** Except that he was clearly able to contact the Atraxi beforehand, since he sends them an MMS with all those photographs of Prisoner Zero - well before the Atraxi ''do'' anything.
*** ** The way that he "contacts" them is actually far from straightforward--he basically writes a computer virus on the phone, sends it out to get the Atraxi's attention, and lets them trace it back to its source in the phone, where the pictures are. Not exactly the kind of setup where you could ring them with a friendly tip.
*** ** It does sound like the Doctor couldn't contact them until they'd traced the phone. Which is like not being able to phone someone until they phone you, and then you save the incoming number on your mobile. Also, consider that it's possible to withold your number from somebody.



*** Think about it this way. What we're seeing as the familiar blue Police Box is just a perception filter (Chameleon Circuit). If you remove that, you'd see whatever the TARDIS actually looks like. The inside of the TARDIS is fixed just like any other ship, so I would think it should crash in the same manner.

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*** ** Think about it this way. What we're seeing as the familiar blue Police Box is just a perception filter (Chameleon Circuit). If you remove that, you'd see whatever the TARDIS actually looks like. The inside of the TARDIS is fixed just like any other ship, so I would think it should crash in the same manner.



*** The bits of it that control said locking down were then probably broken as well. We heard the cloister bell after all, that's usually a sign that things are going pretty pear shaped. Also, it was [[RuleOfFunny funny]].

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*** ** The bits of it that control said locking down were then probably broken as well. We heard the cloister bell after all, that's usually a sign that things are going pretty pear shaped. Also, it was [[RuleOfFunny funny]].



*** Also, she researched. Stories about a mysterious person called the Doctor exist(think Clive from "Rose" and LINDA), along with many stories of a magic blue box. Young Amy knew that this was a guy in a blue box, found stories of a Doctor and a blue box, and after years of research, gossip and the internet came to realise that the Raggedy Man in the blue magic box is probably the Doctor and his blue magic box. Also, Harold Saxon/The Master probably talked about the magic box when addressing his policy of aliens existing-basically, Amy got this information by being a conspiracy theorist.

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*** ** Also, she researched. Stories about a mysterious person called the Doctor exist(think Clive from "Rose" and LINDA), along with many stories of a magic blue box. Young Amy knew that this was a guy in a blue box, found stories of a Doctor and a blue box, and after years of research, gossip and the internet came to realise that the Raggedy Man in the blue magic box is probably the Doctor and his blue magic box. Also, Harold Saxon/The Master probably talked about the magic box when addressing his policy of aliens existing-basically, Amy got this information by being a conspiracy theorist.



*** But there didn't seem to be any nearby cracks...unless the ducks wondered all the way to Amy's house.
*** In 'Flesh and Stone', the Doctor mentions the duck pond again as he figures out what the cracks are, so apparently that's what it was all about.

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*** ** But there didn't seem to be any nearby cracks...unless the ducks wondered all the way to Amy's house.
*** ** In 'Flesh and Stone', the Doctor mentions the duck pond again as he figures out what the cracks are, so apparently that's what it was all about.



*** But Rory is a ''nurse'', and he works at ''this'' hospital and he's ''already'' in uniform. Besides, the next time we see them they're still wearing the same clothes as before.

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*** ** But Rory is a ''nurse'', and he works at ''this'' hospital and he's ''already'' in uniform. Besides, the next time we see them they're still wearing the same clothes as before.



*** Scotland (and the rest of the world) built their own space ships using traditional methods only for the rest of the UK to find there was no fuel left. The bigger countries such as America could well have taken a lot of said fuel, and also realized they needed to build faster due to having a lot more people to carry. They may have started decades before Britain. Who's to say England wasn't just slow because they were in some kind of... Unsinkable Titanic mode?
*** I think the Doctor was checking to see if the vibrated because of the engines, which they didn't, the whale must move in a way that doesn't cause that much vibration.
**** I think it's something to do with scale. I may be failing physics forever here, but consider the earth - we barely feel the earth rotating mainly because it's so big. Starship UK is the size of... well, the UK, not as big as earth but still pretty large, and the starwhale is just one big large "engine" in itself. Whereas they would need a lot of much smaller and a lot less fluid engines to do the same job, which would make more vibrations. Hm... how much does a whale move while swimming through the oceans?
***** It isn't Earth's size, it's just that it moves at a constant speed, never speeding up or slowing down. In a car, for instance, you don't feel like you're moving unless you speed up, slow down, or turn. Same with the space whale--so long as it kept a regular speed, you wouldn't feel like you were moving. Vibration from an engine is something different entirely; it wouldn't come from the movement of the ship but from machinery on the ship itself.
*** When was it said it evolved? I must have missed that, as for why it came when they needed help, it was because the children were screaming for help, and it came for them.
*** It was never said that it had FTL travel, only that could travel between stars, considered that it was longed lived (it had 300+ years, and no one seemed worried that could die from old age before they journey would end) it could very well travel at a fraction of lightspeed and still be usefull as the ship "engine".

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*** ** Scotland (and the rest of the world) built their own space ships using traditional methods only for the rest of the UK to find there was no fuel left. The bigger countries such as America could well have taken a lot of said fuel, and also realized they needed to build faster due to having a lot more people to carry. They may have started decades before Britain. Who's to say England wasn't just slow because they were in some kind of... Unsinkable Titanic mode?
*** ** I think the Doctor was checking to see if the vibrated because of the engines, which they didn't, the whale must move in a way that doesn't cause that much vibration.
**** ** I think it's something to do with scale. I may be failing physics forever here, but consider the earth - we barely feel the earth rotating mainly because it's so big. Starship UK is the size of... well, the UK, not as big as earth but still pretty large, and the starwhale is just one big large "engine" in itself. Whereas they would need a lot of much smaller and a lot less fluid engines to do the same job, which would make more vibrations. Hm... how much does a whale move while swimming through the oceans?
***** ** It isn't Earth's size, it's just that it moves at a constant speed, never speeding up or slowing down. In a car, for instance, you don't feel like you're moving unless you speed up, slow down, or turn. Same with the space whale--so long as it kept a regular speed, you wouldn't feel like you were moving. Vibration from an engine is something different entirely; it wouldn't come from the movement of the ship but from machinery on the ship itself.
*** ** When was it said it evolved? I must have missed that, as for why it came when they needed help, it was because the children were screaming for help, and it came for them.
*** ** It was never said that it had FTL travel, only that could travel between stars, considered that it was longed lived (it had 300+ years, and no one seemed worried that could die from old age before they journey would end) it could very well travel at a fraction of lightspeed and still be usefull as the ship "engine".



*** I think the Earth was burning and that's why they were crying.

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*** ** I think the Earth was burning and that's why they were crying.



*** The truth gets out sometime in the year 3295 and The Doctor has been in times past that one, he should know about the whale at the very least and maybe even the whole truth. That's not even counting the fact he's in space and should be able to see under the Starship UK
**** Well, for not being able to see under, I assumed that they had built around it somehow to block it from outside view and then at the end once it was revealed, the wall around it was removed. Something like that.
*** I assumed that there were various clues that clued him into there being a police state.
***** Alternately, the whale itself might have used its tentacle things to shake off anything unnecessary surrounding it.

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*** ** The truth gets out sometime in the year 3295 and The Doctor has been in times past that one, he should know about the whale at the very least and maybe even the whole truth. That's not even counting the fact he's in space and should be able to see under the Starship UK
**** ** Well, for not being able to see under, I assumed that they had built around it somehow to block it from outside view and then at the end once it was revealed, the wall around it was removed. Something like that.
*** ** I assumed that there were various clues that clued him into there being a police state.
***** ** Alternately, the whale itself might have used its tentacle things to shake off anything unnecessary surrounding it.



*** Note that the Dalek from "Dalek" was found on the Ascension Islands (I think) in the early 1960s, long before any of their invasions anyway.

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*** ** Note that the Dalek from "Dalek" was found on the Ascension Islands (I think) in the early 1960s, long before any of their invasions anyway.



*** Thank you! I was just about to post this myself. Why do people expect the Doctor to know every last detail about whatever is currently the past?
*** To be fair, while I agree fully with the above it's usually because the Doctor often ''does'' seem to know everything, or at least makes a big deal of acting as if he does. It makes the occasions where he apparently doesn't seem a bit more glaring.

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*** ** Thank you! I was just about to post this myself. Why do people expect the Doctor to know every last detail about whatever is currently the past?
*** ** To be fair, while I agree fully with the above it's usually because the Doctor often ''does'' seem to know everything, or at least makes a big deal of acting as if he does. It makes the occasions where he apparently doesn't seem a bit more glaring.



*** One way to interpret the Doctor's "Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey, nonlinear time" explanation is that certain actions don't just affect events following that action, but previous events as well, especially when it has to do with a fixed point; when the Doctor says that most people assume that time is a "strict progression of cause-to-effect". Well, if it's not, then does that make it... effect-to-cause? If this is the logic that Time Lords understand time by, then it answers a lot of questions, including this one. Assume a fixed point could be some major, universe-altering event(s), or an event a time traveler has prior knowledge of. We've seen in "Waters of Mars" that time will rewrite itself if a the 'cause' part of the cause-and-effect sequence is altered. If the 'effect' part is altered, will time rewrite the cause? Presumably, when the Doctor does something in the future, and then goes into the past, past events may have been altered to fit future events, or a fixed point. In "the beast below" scenario- (I really think that the Star Whale would have been mentioned in the history books at some point) the Doctor could have done something either in the past or the future- step on a butterfly, who knows?- that led to this completely new future where the countries of the world built their own starships and floated around for a bit. It sure does make time travel sound fun, though- you never wind up in the same future twice!

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*** ** One way to interpret the Doctor's "Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey, nonlinear time" explanation is that certain actions don't just affect events following that action, but previous events as well, especially when it has to do with a fixed point; when the Doctor says that most people assume that time is a "strict progression of cause-to-effect". Well, if it's not, then does that make it... effect-to-cause? If this is the logic that Time Lords understand time by, then it answers a lot of questions, including this one. Assume a fixed point could be some major, universe-altering event(s), or an event a time traveler has prior knowledge of. We've seen in "Waters of Mars" that time will rewrite itself if a the 'cause' part of the cause-and-effect sequence is altered. If the 'effect' part is altered, will time rewrite the cause? Presumably, when the Doctor does something in the future, and then goes into the past, past events may have been altered to fit future events, or a fixed point. In "the beast below" scenario- (I really think that the Star Whale would have been mentioned in the history books at some point) the Doctor could have done something either in the past or the future- step on a butterfly, who knows?- that led to this completely new future where the countries of the world built their own starships and floated around for a bit. It sure does make time travel sound fun, though- you never wind up in the same future twice!



*** Once again, she didn't even realise he's alien, just a time travelling madman she's known since she was seven.

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*** ** Once again, she didn't even realise he's alien, just a time travelling madman she's known since she was seven.



*** Basically yeah, she guessed. She knew he was a legend from Liz, and already knew he could travel in time. She correlated what she knew about him with what she knew about the starwhale, noticed a pattern and Bob's your uncle. It's not impossible to work out the whole picture from a few puzzle pieces, and Amy just seems to have that kind of intuitive nature when she stops to think about things.

to:

*** ** Basically yeah, she guessed. She knew he was a legend from Liz, and already knew he could travel in time. She correlated what she knew about him with what she knew about the starwhale, noticed a pattern and Bob's your uncle. It's not impossible to work out the whole picture from a few puzzle pieces, and Amy just seems to have that kind of intuitive nature when she stops to think about things.



*** You're all missing the point. It's ''what is proved by the fact that the bad guy spares someone''. The Slitheen story says "sparing children doesn't prove she's a good guy". ''The Beast Below'' says "sparing children proves it's a good guy". Whether the character is later forgiven or proven to be a good guy for other reasons doesn't affect this. And whether the two Doctors are different is also irrelevant--it's not the Doctor contradicting himself (In ''The Beast Below'' it wasn't even the Doctor who said it, it was Amy), it's the stories giving contradictory lectures.
**** But it wasn't saying that, all that this really implied was that the Starwhale wasn't blaming the kids for the sins of their parents. It knew the children weren't a part of it's pain -the children were unaware of the Starwhale until they become adults. Once they're old enough to vote, they became aware of it's suffering and ''chose'' to ignore it: they were no longer innocents in it's mind. Also, we're talking about a show with decades of continuity and many different writers, of course there are going to be contradictory messages sometimes. At least that suggests they're not set into one certain moral truth above all others.
**** On the contrary; with the greatest of respect, from where I'm sitting it seems to be ''you'' who is missing the point. The moral of the discussion in the earlier story is not just "sparing children doesn't prove Margaret the Slitheen is a good guy", it's "sparing one person doesn't automatically prove you're a good guy ''when you have a lengthy list of evil actions to your name to begin with''". Margaret the Slitheen was clearly shown and proved to be a ruthless, vicious murderess who killed people, wore their skins and joked about it before her whole supposed HeelFaceTurn, and it's clearly suggested that she had a fairly lengthy list of evil actions to her name before this. The crux of the Doctor's argument was that saving one person does not automatically negate her past misdeeds or suddenly make her 'good' -- it's just her way of trying to convince herself that she's changed. Indeed, the fact that she was still planning to blow up Cardiff to get a ride off the planet (thus presumably killing the person she 'spared' anyway) suggests that she hadn't really reformed in any serious way at all. The whale, on the other hand, had done nothing to suggest that it's an 'evil' creature at all, plenty to suggest that it is a benevolent creature, and no one -- not even the humans -- even suggests that it is in any way evil; indeed, the whole point of the episode is that the humans are so consumed with their guilt at what they feel they have to do to an innocent creature in order to survive that they are either happy to wipe their own minds clean to forget about it or -- in what is suggested to be the rarer option -- risk the destruction of their entire society to prevent it. It is the society that has captured and enslaved the whale that is clearly presented to be evil, not the whale itself. The stories are not contradictory because the whale was never presented as the 'bad guy' at all, and was clearly and demonstrably presented the ''good'' guy, whereas Margaret the Slitheen ''was'' clearly presented as the bad guy from the start.
**** That's not true. The space whale was first presented in a way that it could plausibly be at least hostile. "Doesn't hurt children" implies "does hurt adults".
**** It's also ultimately presented in a way that it's treatment is a dark and shameful secret; the whole point of the voting booths is that the people are presented with the 'truth' of Starship UK, which is so horrible that they either choose to forget it or risk the destruction of their entire society in outrage. Considering that this truth is pretty clearly the torture of the space whale, this is not exactly how you'd react or present it if the whale was supposed to be viewed as a hostile, malevolent threat. Liz Ten's speech to herself pretty much admits that from the perspective of the humans, the whale was just going about it's thing when they captured it and hooked it up to a torture machine; if they'd wanted to even give the slightest hint that the whale was a threat or an enemy, why didn't they claim it was attacking them? The whole treatment of the whale once we learn of it's existence is framed in terms that what's happening to it is clearly an outrage and an atrocity; again, hardly how it would be presented if we were truly supposed to see the whale even partially as a malevolent entity. And frankly, if the whale ''does'' eat or harm the adults, then considering it's the adults who have hooked it's brain up to a torture machine and are zapping it every few minutes then I think a ''little'' hostility is pretty justified under those circumstances; if I was being tortured and I had the chance to get even with the people I saw as being my torturers, I probably would -- they're the ones who are at wrong in that situation, not me. In fact, the very fact that the whale ''doesn't'' take further revenge barring this ultimately supports the view that it's not a malevolent threat. We do get a few scary moments with the whale, truth, but on the whole the story makes it fairly clear even before this that it's the humans who are being the evil ones in this situation, not the whale.
**** There's also the fact that the Star Whale isn't asking for human sacrifices, that the idea to use the Star Whale as a means of executing dissidents is entirely the idea of the human parasites. The Star Whale could, in all likelihood, be sustained with whatever food source the humans have been using for themselves, but instead it is left hungry.

to:

*** ** You're all missing the point. It's ''what is proved by the fact that the bad guy spares someone''. The Slitheen story says "sparing children doesn't prove she's a good guy". ''The Beast Below'' says "sparing children proves it's a good guy". Whether the character is later forgiven or proven to be a good guy for other reasons doesn't affect this. And whether the two Doctors are different is also irrelevant--it's not the Doctor contradicting himself (In ''The Beast Below'' it wasn't even the Doctor who said it, it was Amy), it's the stories giving contradictory lectures.
**** ** But it wasn't saying that, all that this really implied was that the Starwhale wasn't blaming the kids for the sins of their parents. It knew the children weren't a part of it's pain -the children were unaware of the Starwhale until they become adults. Once they're old enough to vote, they became aware of it's suffering and ''chose'' to ignore it: they were no longer innocents in it's mind. Also, we're talking about a show with decades of continuity and many different writers, of course there are going to be contradictory messages sometimes. At least that suggests they're not set into one certain moral truth above all others.
**** ** On the contrary; with the greatest of respect, from where I'm sitting it seems to be ''you'' who is missing the point. The moral of the discussion in the earlier story is not just "sparing children doesn't prove Margaret the Slitheen is a good guy", it's "sparing one person doesn't automatically prove you're a good guy ''when you have a lengthy list of evil actions to your name to begin with''". Margaret the Slitheen was clearly shown and proved to be a ruthless, vicious murderess who killed people, wore their skins and joked about it before her whole supposed HeelFaceTurn, and it's clearly suggested that she had a fairly lengthy list of evil actions to her name before this. The crux of the Doctor's argument was that saving one person does not automatically negate her past misdeeds or suddenly make her 'good' -- it's just her way of trying to convince herself that she's changed. Indeed, the fact that she was still planning to blow up Cardiff to get a ride off the planet (thus presumably killing the person she 'spared' anyway) suggests that she hadn't really reformed in any serious way at all. The whale, on the other hand, had done nothing to suggest that it's an 'evil' creature at all, plenty to suggest that it is a benevolent creature, and no one -- not even the humans -- even suggests that it is in any way evil; indeed, the whole point of the episode is that the humans are so consumed with their guilt at what they feel they have to do to an innocent creature in order to survive that they are either happy to wipe their own minds clean to forget about it or -- in what is suggested to be the rarer option -- risk the destruction of their entire society to prevent it. It is the society that has captured and enslaved the whale that is clearly presented to be evil, not the whale itself. The stories are not contradictory because the whale was never presented as the 'bad guy' at all, and was clearly and demonstrably presented the ''good'' guy, whereas Margaret the Slitheen ''was'' clearly presented as the bad guy from the start.
**** ** That's not true. The space whale was first presented in a way that it could plausibly be at least hostile. "Doesn't hurt children" implies "does hurt adults".
**** ** It's also ultimately presented in a way that it's treatment is a dark and shameful secret; the whole point of the voting booths is that the people are presented with the 'truth' of Starship UK, which is so horrible that they either choose to forget it or risk the destruction of their entire society in outrage. Considering that this truth is pretty clearly the torture of the space whale, this is not exactly how you'd react or present it if the whale was supposed to be viewed as a hostile, malevolent threat. Liz Ten's speech to herself pretty much admits that from the perspective of the humans, the whale was just going about it's thing when they captured it and hooked it up to a torture machine; if they'd wanted to even give the slightest hint that the whale was a threat or an enemy, why didn't they claim it was attacking them? The whole treatment of the whale once we learn of it's existence is framed in terms that what's happening to it is clearly an outrage and an atrocity; again, hardly how it would be presented if we were truly supposed to see the whale even partially as a malevolent entity. And frankly, if the whale ''does'' eat or harm the adults, then considering it's the adults who have hooked it's brain up to a torture machine and are zapping it every few minutes then I think a ''little'' hostility is pretty justified under those circumstances; if I was being tortured and I had the chance to get even with the people I saw as being my torturers, I probably would -- they're the ones who are at wrong in that situation, not me. In fact, the very fact that the whale ''doesn't'' take further revenge barring this ultimately supports the view that it's not a malevolent threat. We do get a few scary moments with the whale, truth, but on the whole the story makes it fairly clear even before this that it's the humans who are being the evil ones in this situation, not the whale.
**** ** There's also the fact that the Star Whale isn't asking for human sacrifices, that the idea to use the Star Whale as a means of executing dissidents is entirely the idea of the human parasites. The Star Whale could, in all likelihood, be sustained with whatever food source the humans have been using for themselves, but instead it is left hungry.



*** Tow it ''where''? Did they have any specific destination? Besides, it can pull them, but not necessarily FAST, so that sounds like a very boring way for the Doctor to spend a few decades.
*** Not necessarily fast? It once towed a ship out of a '''black hole''' in "The Satan Pit". Though the planet pulling thing apparently couldn't be pulled off by the Doctor and a single companion alone.
*** And to answer ''both'' things: The reason why he wouldn't tow/transport the residents is because he's still not 100% there yet. It's how long after he's "stopped cooking?" How would you feel after severe trauma, and being told that you now have to save the city you lived in with ''no information whatsoever?'' You wouldn't be fully up to par, either.

to:

*** ** Tow it ''where''? Did they have any specific destination? Besides, it can pull them, but not necessarily FAST, so that sounds like a very boring way for the Doctor to spend a few decades.
*** ** Not necessarily fast? It once towed a ship out of a '''black hole''' in "The Satan Pit". Though the planet pulling thing apparently couldn't be pulled off by the Doctor and a single companion alone.
*** ** And to answer ''both'' things: The reason why he wouldn't tow/transport the residents is because he's still not 100% there yet. It's how long after he's "stopped cooking?" How would you feel after severe trauma, and being told that you now have to save the city you lived in with ''no information whatsoever?'' You wouldn't be fully up to par, either.



*** It wasn't necessary by the end of the story when he knew the space whale was happy to carry everyone, but it should have been an option in the middle of the story, before he knew this.
*** Maybe so, but to be fair from a storytelling point of view it's not exactly an option with a great deal of excitement or complexity behind it; "come on, everyone in Britain, line up to board the TARDIS!" -- not ''incredibly'' exciting. Plus, it leads them open to the 'well, why don't they just do that ''every'' week?" accusation. Methinks that WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief is probably necessary for this one.
*** Furthermore, marshalling everyone into the TARDIS will still take some time and resources. And let's face it, few people are going to be convinced by the "hey, everyone, I'm going to fit the entire population of Starship UK into my little blue box and take everyone to safety!" argument. And in the HumansAreBastards frame of mind the Doctor's in when he learns what they're doing to the space whale anyway, he probably doesn't ''want'' them in his TARDIS, and why would he?
*** Sooo overall, it was (or at least implied) that the whale was physically connected to the Starship, and that to choose abdicate would have freed it, therefore allowing the structures which had since built up around and on top of it to fall apart without any supporting structure? Or at the very least, the whale would get REALLY understandably pissy, say "screw this" and throw them off probably damaging the country's infrastructure in the process?
*** If he did tow them elsewhere, he might be interfering with the natural course of Human History and wouldn't take the chance unless they were in real danger. He seems to allow Humans to progress at whatever pace... seeing as he knows they've made it to the end of the Universe just fine (witnessed by Ten).
*** So he'd rather lobotomize a creature and give up the name 'Doctor' rather than interfere with history even though he interferes with history on a daily basis?
**** There's a difference between the small interferences he does and such a huge departure as that would have been. And who knows? Perhaps the starship was a fixed point in history and the Doctor just never mentioned it. The wiggle room came from how the ship would be powered, from a creature in pain, a creature lobotomized, or (as Amy discovered) a creature willing.

to:

*** ** It wasn't necessary by the end of the story when he knew the space whale was happy to carry everyone, but it should have been an option in the middle of the story, before he knew this.
*** ** Maybe so, but to be fair from a storytelling point of view it's not exactly an option with a great deal of excitement or complexity behind it; "come on, everyone in Britain, line up to board the TARDIS!" -- not ''incredibly'' exciting. Plus, it leads them open to the 'well, why don't they just do that ''every'' week?" accusation. Methinks that WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief is probably necessary for this one.
*** ** Furthermore, marshalling everyone into the TARDIS will still take some time and resources. And let's face it, few people are going to be convinced by the "hey, everyone, I'm going to fit the entire population of Starship UK into my little blue box and take everyone to safety!" argument. And in the HumansAreBastards frame of mind the Doctor's in when he learns what they're doing to the space whale anyway, he probably doesn't ''want'' them in his TARDIS, and why would he?
*** ** Sooo overall, it was (or at least implied) that the whale was physically connected to the Starship, and that to choose abdicate would have freed it, therefore allowing the structures which had since built up around and on top of it to fall apart without any supporting structure? Or at the very least, the whale would get REALLY understandably pissy, say "screw this" and throw them off probably damaging the country's infrastructure in the process?
*** ** If he did tow them elsewhere, he might be interfering with the natural course of Human History and wouldn't take the chance unless they were in real danger. He seems to allow Humans to progress at whatever pace... seeing as he knows they've made it to the end of the Universe just fine (witnessed by Ten).
*** ** So he'd rather lobotomize a creature and give up the name 'Doctor' rather than interfere with history even though he interferes with history on a daily basis?
**** ** There's a difference between the small interferences he does and such a huge departure as that would have been. And who knows? Perhaps the starship was a fixed point in history and the Doctor just never mentioned it. The wiggle room came from how the ship would be powered, from a creature in pain, a creature lobotomized, or (as Amy discovered) a creature willing.



*** ...when Amy [[NiceJobBreakingItHero pressed the button]].

to:

*** ...** ...when Amy [[NiceJobBreakingItHero pressed the button]].



*** It's pretty big -- a bit of sustained thrashing, it could probably shake the city off, or at least damage it sufficiently to render it all but uninhabitable.

to:

*** ** It's pretty big -- a bit of sustained thrashing, it could probably shake the city off, or at least damage it sufficiently to render it all but uninhabitable.



*** Still a non-sequitur. Just because it involved neural passageways does not make the whale's torture MindRape. At all.
*** We're being a bit over-literal and bound to our own terminology here, guys and [=/=] or girls; I suspect the earlier Troper was simply stating that the people of Starship UK were metaphorically 'shagging' the space whale's brain by sending massive bolts of electricity through it -- 'shagging' in this case presumably being used as a slightly more polite way of saying 'fucking' as in 'fucking up' or 'fucking around with'. It's not necessarily a direct suggestion of MindRape as the trope-page defines it.

to:

*** ** Still a non-sequitur. Just because it involved neural passageways does not make the whale's torture MindRape. At all.
*** ** We're being a bit over-literal and bound to our own terminology here, guys and [=/=] or girls; I suspect the earlier Troper was simply stating that the people of Starship UK were metaphorically 'shagging' the space whale's brain by sending massive bolts of electricity through it -- 'shagging' in this case presumably being used as a slightly more polite way of saying 'fucking' as in 'fucking up' or 'fucking around with'. It's not necessarily a direct suggestion of MindRape as the trope-page defines it.



*** This one's confirmed in the script, actually. They get vomited up, Amy asks "Where are we?", the Doctor replies "Overspill pipe, at a guess."

to:

*** ** This one's confirmed in the script, actually. They get vomited up, Amy asks "Where are we?", the Doctor replies "Overspill pipe, at a guess."



*** Question 1: Every couple of years, once a citizen reaches the age of twelve, they are eligible to vote. The message Amy Pond saw is played for them, and they choose to 'Protest', or 'Forget'. Assumedly, forgetting resets their memories to the beginning of Queen Liz Ten's reign. As for records and documents, The Winders are probably charged with doctoring the written and recorded history so that it falls in accordance with the established façade.
**** The voting booth erases only the memory of the information they receive in the voting booth.

to:

*** ** Question 1: Every couple of years, once a citizen reaches the age of twelve, they are eligible to vote. The message Amy Pond saw is played for them, and they choose to 'Protest', or 'Forget'. Assumedly, forgetting resets their memories to the beginning of Queen Liz Ten's reign. As for records and documents, The Winders are probably charged with doctoring the written and recorded history so that it falls in accordance with the established façade.
**** ** The voting booth erases only the memory of the information they receive in the voting booth.



*** Only those who deal with the Queen personally could really KNOW she doesn't age ... as opposed to her using a technology to maintain an appealing sexy appearance, which is very close to possible with our current (2012) technology. Occam's Razor would lead us to think "oh, she's altering her picture" or "the Queen is just a Big Brother-type fictional figurehead" a lot sooner than "the Queen does not age."

to:

*** ** Only those who deal with the Queen personally could really KNOW she doesn't age ... as opposed to her using a technology to maintain an appealing sexy appearance, which is very close to possible with our current (2012) technology. Occam's Razor would lead us to think "oh, she's altering her picture" or "the Queen is just a Big Brother-type fictional figurehead" a lot sooner than "the Queen does not age."



*** If they attempted to build engines there wouldn't be any need to keep it a secret anyway. Additionally if the whale does die then they're stuck in space without any ability to maneuver. Admittedly space is so large and they're so small that it probably won't be a problem but that seems like an unnecessary risk to take. Of course I also have to note that the [[ReedRichardsIsUseless Doctor didn't think to offer technical assistance]].
*** Immortality, or at least ages up into the quadruple digits is confirmed as being possible in the Who!Verse, with the Time Lords, Jack, the Racnoss and the suchlike. The Star Whale should last a couple hundred more years, enough time for the humans to find a new planet.
*** They weren't searching for a new planet, the plan was go into space, drift around for enough time that the Earth becomes habitable again, return to Earth.

to:

*** ** If they attempted to build engines there wouldn't be any need to keep it a secret anyway. Additionally if the whale does die then they're stuck in space without any ability to maneuver. Admittedly space is so large and they're so small that it probably won't be a problem but that seems like an unnecessary risk to take. Of course I also have to note that the [[ReedRichardsIsUseless Doctor didn't think to offer technical assistance]].
*** ** Immortality, or at least ages up into the quadruple digits is confirmed as being possible in the Who!Verse, with the Time Lords, Jack, the Racnoss and the suchlike. The Star Whale should last a couple hundred more years, enough time for the humans to find a new planet.
*** ** They weren't searching for a new planet, the plan was go into space, drift around for enough time that the Earth becomes habitable again, return to Earth.



*** Not buying it. You cannot meaningfully explain a plot hole (which could be cut off safely -- these Spitfires did little to advance the plot, and their existence in WWII Britain should have drastically changed history) by naming a trope. I can accept omnicidal talking pepper cans, but these insta-converted planes make no logical sense, even by ''Doctor Who'' standards, and break immersion.
**** Their presence doesn't affect WWII history because the Doctor gets rid of them and the blueprints at the end; he explicitly says so. Churchill's not happy about it.
**** Plus, there's only three Spitfires which have been fitted out, and two get blown up in the upper atmosphere. Which leaves one to be dismantled.
**** Because they are writing what THEY want to see - Confidential after "Day of the Moon" notes a lot of people got into acting/writing/camera etc because as kids they wanted to 'do' Doctor Who. If you are my age you grew up as a small boy in a country which showed a war film at least once a month during the 70's, you had Airfix models, and COMMANDO comic was staple reading material. Then you got Star Wars. Basically Rusty, Moff and the other middle-age blokes at the meeting went "Spitfires in space? [[RuleOfCool HELL YES]]". Doesn't have to make sense, it's just allowing us everything we wanted 35 years ago. And we would have got away with it if it wasn't for you meddlin' kids!

to:

*** ** Not buying it. You cannot meaningfully explain a plot hole (which could be cut off safely -- these Spitfires did little to advance the plot, and their existence in WWII Britain should have drastically changed history) by naming a trope. I can accept omnicidal talking pepper cans, but these insta-converted planes make no logical sense, even by ''Doctor Who'' standards, and break immersion.
**** ** Their presence doesn't affect WWII history because the Doctor gets rid of them and the blueprints at the end; he explicitly says so. Churchill's not happy about it.
**** ** Plus, there's only three Spitfires which have been fitted out, and two get blown up in the upper atmosphere. Which leaves one to be dismantled.
**** ** Because they are writing what THEY want to see - Confidential after "Day of the Moon" notes a lot of people got into acting/writing/camera etc because as kids they wanted to 'do' Doctor Who. If you are my age you grew up as a small boy in a country which showed a war film at least once a month during the 70's, you had Airfix models, and COMMANDO comic was staple reading material. Then you got Star Wars. Basically Rusty, Moff and the other middle-age blokes at the meeting went "Spitfires in space? [[RuleOfCool HELL YES]]". Doesn't have to make sense, it's just allowing us everything we wanted 35 years ago. And we would have got away with it if it wasn't for you meddlin' kids!



*** I'm pretty sure he did explicitly say "they're only prototypes." Not only did he have Dalek technology, he WAS Dalek technology, and he'd produced plenty of it. He'd never tested it because he had human memories and feelings, but he had stuff in the vaults. Then it would've been as easy as... well, putting a spitfire in a prototype bubble. Not to say that my belief wasn't properly suspended, but still. It makes objective sense.
**** Indeed; the exact words were "it's theoretically possible", which could mean any number of things. Already built? Already fitted? Already on the Spitfires that were in the air at that very moment? The third option seems very likely as explanations go.
*** Also, I feel like the Doctor could have pulled off some jiggery-pokery to get them working.
*** And, we're talking UsefulNotes/WW2. My Grandad (who built aircraft) used to tell stories of them flying bombers down to the airfields with the engineers finishing building the aircraft ''while in flight''. If the Spitfires were in a state that could reach space, they'd have flown them.
**** Fast enough that outfitting Spitfires with completely unfamiliar technology can be done faster than, say, Londoners all over the city could simply ''break the freakin' light bulbs'' that the Daleks are keeping lit?

to:

*** ** I'm pretty sure he did explicitly say "they're only prototypes." Not only did he have Dalek technology, he WAS Dalek technology, and he'd produced plenty of it. He'd never tested it because he had human memories and feelings, but he had stuff in the vaults. Then it would've been as easy as... well, putting a spitfire in a prototype bubble. Not to say that my belief wasn't properly suspended, but still. It makes objective sense.
**** ** Indeed; the exact words were "it's theoretically possible", which could mean any number of things. Already built? Already fitted? Already on the Spitfires that were in the air at that very moment? The third option seems very likely as explanations go.
*** ** Also, I feel like the Doctor could have pulled off some jiggery-pokery to get them working.
*** ** And, we're talking UsefulNotes/WW2. My Grandad (who built aircraft) used to tell stories of them flying bombers down to the airfields with the engineers finishing building the aircraft ''while in flight''. If the Spitfires were in a state that could reach space, they'd have flown them.
**** ** Fast enough that outfitting Spitfires with completely unfamiliar technology can be done faster than, say, Londoners all over the city could simply ''break the freakin' light bulbs'' that the Daleks are keeping lit?



*** Actually, in that case, the time stream was weakened because of the prescense of two versions of the Doctor and Rose, one is a very prominent time lord, integral to keeping the universe in order, the other was significant because of the powerful "Bad Wolf" phenomena surrounding her. Also, the Doctor existed twice, and Rose existed THREE times in the same moment in time there. That's got to have complicated things a bit.

to:

*** ** Actually, in that case, the time stream was weakened because of the prescense of two versions of the Doctor and Rose, one is a very prominent time lord, integral to keeping the universe in order, the other was significant because of the powerful "Bad Wolf" phenomena surrounding her. Also, the Doctor existed twice, and Rose existed THREE times in the same moment in time there. That's got to have complicated things a bit.



*** '''Remembrance of the Daleks'' - "Even the Daleks, ruthless as they are, would think twice before making so incalculable a change to the timeline." And he was referring to an eighties tape deck in the ''sixties'', not wiping out a planet.
**** "Thinking twice" just means they'd pause for thought, not that they wouldn't do it if they thought it was worth their while. Which they clearly did in this case.
*** Since they refused to kill Adelaide in the flashback in ''Waters of Mars'' specifically because she was a fixed point and couldn't die too soon. And of course destroying humanity in World War II would have wiped Adelaide.
**** Of course, to be fair, those same Daleks were planning to wipe out Adelaide by extension when they wiped out all of reality, so obviously keeping the timeline straight wasn't ''that'' big a deal to them. Destroying the entirety of reality would ''also'' have wiped out Adelaide, let's face it.
*** And as the seventh Doctor said in Remembrance of the Daleks: "The Daleks have a mothership up there capable of eradicating this planet from space. But even they, ruthless though they are, would thing twice before making such a radical alteration to the timeline."
**** Being slightly pedantic here, but "thinking twice" about something doesn't mean they wouldn't do it anyway if they thought it was worth their while.
*** Oh no, two contradictory recollections of "Remembrance of the Daleks" are posted here! Clearly, someone has been messing with the timeline.

to:

*** ** '''Remembrance of the Daleks'' - "Even the Daleks, ruthless as they are, would think twice before making so incalculable a change to the timeline." And he was referring to an eighties tape deck in the ''sixties'', not wiping out a planet.
**** ** "Thinking twice" just means they'd pause for thought, not that they wouldn't do it if they thought it was worth their while. Which they clearly did in this case.
*** ** Since they refused to kill Adelaide in the flashback in ''Waters of Mars'' specifically because she was a fixed point and couldn't die too soon. And of course destroying humanity in World War II would have wiped Adelaide.
**** ** Of course, to be fair, those same Daleks were planning to wipe out Adelaide by extension when they wiped out all of reality, so obviously keeping the timeline straight wasn't ''that'' big a deal to them. Destroying the entirety of reality would ''also'' have wiped out Adelaide, let's face it.
*** ** And as the seventh Doctor said in Remembrance of the Daleks: "The Daleks have a mothership up there capable of eradicating this planet from space. But even they, ruthless though they are, would thing twice before making such a radical alteration to the timeline."
**** ** Being slightly pedantic here, but "thinking twice" about something doesn't mean they wouldn't do it anyway if they thought it was worth their while.
*** ** Oh no, two contradictory recollections of "Remembrance of the Daleks" are posted here! Clearly, someone has been messing with the timeline.



*** No, see, I think this is the very nature of the cracks in time: there's a natural and an unnatural way to change the timeline: the cracks are [=UNnatural=]. They're erasing things in a way which doesn't make sense. If we are to believe that time is in constant flux, then surely thing are happening and unhappening all the time, without causing any damage -the timeline just reshapes itself accordingly. But the Cracks in space are a sign that something has ''damaged'' the time line itself. Events, things, even people, vanish into the cracks, but the events and experiences surrounding those things do not unhappen as well, or adjust as they normally would. Let's use the Battle of Canary Warf as an example: according to Amy in "Victory of the Daleks", it now never happened... but I bet that Ianto Jones was still a member of Torchwood Three after his girlfriend was halfway cyber converted, and that Rose was still in the alternate unvierse (which she wouldn't have been if that battle unhappened in a natural way) and so on. If people who were directly involved in the Canary Wharf battle actually stopped to think about their lives (if Ianto Jones stopped and wondered why he was in Torchwood three, etc) then they'd realise that their lives quite literally ''didn't make sense''. Also recall that at the end of ''The Pandorica Opens'', River found a photograph of Amy with Rory, who at this point should have never even existed. This implies to me that there are great big chunks being ripped out of the timeline but leaving other bits behind. Like it's a quilt being unravelled thread by thread until it falls apart... It's all a bit like what goes down in Terry Pratchett's ''Thief of Time'', really. This is further expanded upon in The Big Bang where we still that the whole universe has vanished to such an extent, that humans have created a bunch of strange myths, such a the Nile Penguins, just trying to explain how the remaining pieces of their universe fit together.
**** In addition to this, Amy exists - but her parents don't, and never did. Clearly bits can be left behind.

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*** ** No, see, I think this is the very nature of the cracks in time: there's a natural and an unnatural way to change the timeline: the cracks are [=UNnatural=]. They're erasing things in a way which doesn't make sense. If we are to believe that time is in constant flux, then surely thing are happening and unhappening all the time, without causing any damage -the timeline just reshapes itself accordingly. But the Cracks in space are a sign that something has ''damaged'' the time line itself. Events, things, even people, vanish into the cracks, but the events and experiences surrounding those things do not unhappen as well, or adjust as they normally would. Let's use the Battle of Canary Warf as an example: according to Amy in "Victory of the Daleks", it now never happened... but I bet that Ianto Jones was still a member of Torchwood Three after his girlfriend was halfway cyber converted, and that Rose was still in the alternate unvierse (which she wouldn't have been if that battle unhappened in a natural way) and so on. If people who were directly involved in the Canary Wharf battle actually stopped to think about their lives (if Ianto Jones stopped and wondered why he was in Torchwood three, etc) then they'd realise that their lives quite literally ''didn't make sense''. Also recall that at the end of ''The Pandorica Opens'', River found a photograph of Amy with Rory, who at this point should have never even existed. This implies to me that there are great big chunks being ripped out of the timeline but leaving other bits behind. Like it's a quilt being unravelled thread by thread until it falls apart... It's all a bit like what goes down in Terry Pratchett's ''Thief of Time'', really. This is further expanded upon in The Big Bang where we still that the whole universe has vanished to such an extent, that humans have created a bunch of strange myths, such a the Nile Penguins, just trying to explain how the remaining pieces of their universe fit together.
**** ** In addition to this, Amy exists - but her parents don't, and never did. Clearly bits can be left behind.



*** If you're talking to the first reply, probably, apart from the 1 cell=1 dalek bit. If you're talking to the original entry, I don't know, that's why I wrote the first reply.
*** I was referring to the first reply. What human meat (at least in "The Stolen Earth" anyway)?
**** None, probably. I meant that yes, you're probably right and I had confused the two. Sorry.
***** I need to rewatch the episode, it's been a long time, but didn't Davros even give a little comment on how, unlike before, they were now true Daleks for this reason?
***** Original poster here, that's kind of what I was getting at.

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*** ** If you're talking to the first reply, probably, apart from the 1 cell=1 dalek bit. If you're talking to the original entry, I don't know, that's why I wrote the first reply.
*** ** I was referring to the first reply. What human meat (at least in "The Stolen Earth" anyway)?
**** ** None, probably. I meant that yes, you're probably right and I had confused the two. Sorry.
***** ** I need to rewatch the episode, it's been a long time, but didn't Davros even give a little comment on how, unlike before, they were now true Daleks for this reason?
***** ** Original poster here, that's kind of what I was getting at.



*** Did they even do a DNA scan? From what I remember, it was all voice recognition.
*** In "Doomsday," when the Daleks are talking to the Cybermen, one of them recognizes the Doctor as "Enemy." No complex scans, no special voice identification, and Ten had never met these Daleks before. They came straight from the Time War. They are clearly capable of identifying time lords in some fashion.

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*** ** Did they even do a DNA scan? From what I remember, it was all voice recognition.
*** ** In "Doomsday," when the Daleks are talking to the Cybermen, one of them recognizes the Doctor as "Enemy." No complex scans, no special voice identification, and Ten had never met these Daleks before. They came straight from the Time War. They are clearly capable of identifying time lords in some fashion.



*** Most of the time they were, but I know when they were around the crack they did. I was under the impression they were kind of caught in the moment, and just arranged it so that, even if they looked at one another, they could unstick if they moved in the right order.
*** Most of them were eyeless only about half an hour ago. Perhaps they're technically blind, still?
*** At least for human vision, periphery vision isn't always perfect. The end of ''Blink'' was the only time they were looking straight at each other.
*** An other possible explanation is that most of them HADN'T avoided looking at each other. Look at how many thousands of angels there were in that cavern, but how few of them overall actually came after the cast? Maybe a lot of the others HAD accidentally looked at each other over the years (most of the statues weren't covering their faces) and the ones that went after the Doctor and co were just the ones who were lucky enough not to make that mistake. I can't imagine that angels generally spend time in large groupslike that since they know how much easier it is for them to paralyse themselves if they do, but were forced to in this regard in order to feed. Part of the gauntlet the cast had to run was that they didn't know which angels had frozen themselves and which hadn't.

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*** ** Most of the time they were, but I know when they were around the crack they did. I was under the impression they were kind of caught in the moment, and just arranged it so that, even if they looked at one another, they could unstick if they moved in the right order.
*** ** Most of them were eyeless only about half an hour ago. Perhaps they're technically blind, still?
*** ** At least for human vision, periphery vision isn't always perfect. The end of ''Blink'' was the only time they were looking straight at each other.
*** ** An other possible explanation is that most of them HADN'T avoided looking at each other. Look at how many thousands of angels there were in that cavern, but how few of them overall actually came after the cast? Maybe a lot of the others HAD accidentally looked at each other over the years (most of the statues weren't covering their faces) and the ones that went after the Doctor and co were just the ones who were lucky enough not to make that mistake. I can't imagine that angels generally spend time in large groupslike that since they know how much easier it is for them to paralyse themselves if they do, but were forced to in this regard in order to feed. Part of the gauntlet the cast had to run was that they didn't know which angels had frozen themselves and which hadn't.



*** Yeah, but the Angels in ''The Time Of Angels/Flesh and Stone'' are ''also'' quite clearly scavengers. That's why they needed to release the radiation from the ship's reactor and all that stuff. They're severely lacking in energy, seemingly even more so than those in ''Blink'' - they don't even LOOK like Angels!
*** ...except for the whole part where the radiation from the ship massively fed them, turning them into an unstoppable army, which was the ''entire point'' of the episodes and the crash into the Aplan temple.
*** If I recall correctly, the angels in the Maze of the dead were scavengers, the one on the Byzantium (whose image was taken and who got into Amy's head) was a normal, healthy angel that was on a rescue mission to help the other ones. So it's possible that that one had enough energy to create another Angel.
*** Yes, but by the beginning of "Flesh and Stone", they became as healthy as Angel Bob. The "Blink" angels were far weaker.

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*** ** Yeah, but the Angels in ''The Time Of Angels/Flesh and Stone'' are ''also'' quite clearly scavengers. That's why they needed to release the radiation from the ship's reactor and all that stuff. They're severely lacking in energy, seemingly even more so than those in ''Blink'' - they don't even LOOK like Angels!
*** ...** ...except for the whole part where the radiation from the ship massively fed them, turning them into an unstoppable army, which was the ''entire point'' of the episodes and the crash into the Aplan temple.
*** ** If I recall correctly, the angels in the Maze of the dead were scavengers, the one on the Byzantium (whose image was taken and who got into Amy's head) was a normal, healthy angel that was on a rescue mission to help the other ones. So it's possible that that one had enough energy to create another Angel.
*** ** Yes, but by the beginning of "Flesh and Stone", they became as healthy as Angel Bob. The "Blink" angels were far weaker.



*** I'm pretty sure he said that he and Martha were actually fighting the ''real'' Angels when they got displaced. Hmm.
*** And at the start of Time of Angels, The Doctor seems pretty surprised at the whole 'image of an Angel becomes an angel' thing, surely he'd remember something like that if an Angel came out of a piece of paper and trapped him the past for who knows how long?
*** Maybe he didn't realise that the Angels he and Martha ended up fighting had come out of the photo paper? Because if he'd been looking at the photos when they came out, the Angels would have been trapped in them.
*** In other words, it is entirely possible that there were four pictures of angels in that packet, the Doctor took it to Wester Drumlins and let it out of his sight for a few minutes, which was enough time for them to escape and [[StableTimeLoop become the angels that showed up in "Blink"]].

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*** ** I'm pretty sure he said that he and Martha were actually fighting the ''real'' Angels when they got displaced. Hmm.
*** ** And at the start of Time of Angels, The Doctor seems pretty surprised at the whole 'image of an Angel becomes an angel' thing, surely he'd remember something like that if an Angel came out of a piece of paper and trapped him the past for who knows how long?
*** ** Maybe he didn't realise that the Angels he and Martha ended up fighting had come out of the photo paper? Because if he'd been looking at the photos when they came out, the Angels would have been trapped in them.
*** ** In other words, it is entirely possible that there were four pictures of angels in that packet, the Doctor took it to Wester Drumlins and let it out of his sight for a few minutes, which was enough time for them to escape and [[StableTimeLoop become the angels that showed up in "Blink"]].



*** Why would it have been? Photos have been shown to remain behind even after a crack eats the subject (Amy's Rory picture) and they weren't pictures of the Angels of Season 5 anyway but of the Season 3 Angels who are trapped in a basement and though they may have been erased when everything else was, the Doctor brought it all back.
**** Alternatively, The Doctor is actually responsible for the Angels in the Maze, and the first angels in the Planet were taken by him when he visited the Aplans for a nice dinner with their architect, through Sally's pictures, that were in the TARDIS. I like this alternative, makes a good Head Canon.

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*** ** Why would it have been? Photos have been shown to remain behind even after a crack eats the subject (Amy's Rory picture) and they weren't pictures of the Angels of Season 5 anyway but of the Season 3 Angels who are trapped in a basement and though they may have been erased when everything else was, the Doctor brought it all back.
**** ** Alternatively, The Doctor is actually responsible for the Angels in the Maze, and the first angels in the Planet were taken by him when he visited the Aplans for a nice dinner with their architect, through Sally's pictures, that were in the TARDIS. I like this alternative, makes a good Head Canon.



*** Wait so how is this any different from the OTHER times the angels killed in "The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Stone"? (i.e. Bob) Not to mention, wouldn't the above mean they take stone form ''before'' they have a chance to displace people through time?
*** Presumably the time-displacement thing can occur the ''instant'' the victim is touched, even as the Angel is petrified. As for killing all the others, not sure. Maybe they used a stick to knock out the victims first, or some such thing.
*** ...which, as I stated further above, would mean that Octavian would have been time displaced and therefore would not have been able to talk to the Doctor.
*** It was explicitly stated that the angels were feeding off the time crack, so presumably they weren't "hungry" and didn't see a need to time-displace Octavian.
*** Precisely no time-displacement occurs in ''The Time Of Angels / Flesh And Stone''. Perhaps the Angels must make a conscious decision to time-displace people - they still seem capable of thought while petrified, and presumably could "activate" their powers that way.
*** About the "time-displacement thing can occur the ''instant'' the victim is touched" thing, it's established in ''Blink'' that the Angels can move pretty fast. So if one wants to kill you and you observe it at the last minute, then what? What happens when [[FridgeBrilliance you get hit by an insanely fast block of stone?]] (Er, [[NightmareFuel I don't actually want to know)]]
**** If you're quick enough, the quantum-lock will prevent the stone from hitting you.
**** Actually, I don't think they turn to stone at all- when "quantum-locked", they have been frozen in time and space. Thus, there is no super-fast block of stone because the Angels are frozen in three-dimensional space, and can't leave the exact position that they're in. This also deals with the Fridge Logic about smashing them while made of stone, or someone moving the four Angels that were frozen in Blink- they can't be smashed while frozen in time, because change requires time, and they can't be moved because that would change their spatial coordinantes. *Fan Wanks*
***** This theory is completely destroyed by the fact that the frozen Angels at the end of ''Flesh and Stone'' fell into the crack when the gravity changed.
****** While hurt, the theory lives on in the implication that the crack rips up and eats time and space. The Angels might have had the reality under their feet ripped away, but survived due to their status as "complicated space-time events" for a second or two. The idea of a complicated spacetime event surviving the cracks longer than the surrounding reality is cemented when the canonically really complicated space-time event known as The Doctor reaches into a much smaller crack with his hand- given that he was much more complicated than an individual Angel (and that the crack was smaller), he could enter the crack itself, though only briefly. Wheeeeeeee! This belongs in WMG!
****** Except they fell because the gravity failed, not due to the crack expanding.

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*** ** Wait so how is this any different from the OTHER times the angels killed in "The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Stone"? (i.e. Bob) Not to mention, wouldn't the above mean they take stone form ''before'' they have a chance to displace people through time?
*** ** Presumably the time-displacement thing can occur the ''instant'' the victim is touched, even as the Angel is petrified. As for killing all the others, not sure. Maybe they used a stick to knock out the victims first, or some such thing.
*** ...** ...which, as I stated further above, would mean that Octavian would have been time displaced and therefore would not have been able to talk to the Doctor.
*** ** It was explicitly stated that the angels were feeding off the time crack, so presumably they weren't "hungry" and didn't see a need to time-displace Octavian.
*** ** Precisely no time-displacement occurs in ''The Time Of Angels / Flesh And Stone''. Perhaps the Angels must make a conscious decision to time-displace people - they still seem capable of thought while petrified, and presumably could "activate" their powers that way.
*** ** About the "time-displacement thing can occur the ''instant'' the victim is touched" thing, it's established in ''Blink'' that the Angels can move pretty fast. So if one wants to kill you and you observe it at the last minute, then what? What happens when [[FridgeBrilliance you get hit by an insanely fast block of stone?]] (Er, [[NightmareFuel I don't actually want to know)]]
**** ** If you're quick enough, the quantum-lock will prevent the stone from hitting you.
**** ** Actually, I don't think they turn to stone at all- when "quantum-locked", they have been frozen in time and space. Thus, there is no super-fast block of stone because the Angels are frozen in three-dimensional space, and can't leave the exact position that they're in. This also deals with the Fridge Logic about smashing them while made of stone, or someone moving the four Angels that were frozen in Blink- they can't be smashed while frozen in time, because change requires time, and they can't be moved because that would change their spatial coordinantes. *Fan Wanks*
***** ** This theory is completely destroyed by the fact that the frozen Angels at the end of ''Flesh and Stone'' fell into the crack when the gravity changed.
****** ** While hurt, the theory lives on in the implication that the crack rips up and eats time and space. The Angels might have had the reality under their feet ripped away, but survived due to their status as "complicated space-time events" for a second or two. The idea of a complicated spacetime event surviving the cracks longer than the surrounding reality is cemented when the canonically really complicated space-time event known as The Doctor reaches into a much smaller crack with his hand- given that he was much more complicated than an individual Angel (and that the crack was smaller), he could enter the crack itself, though only briefly. Wheeeeeeee! This belongs in WMG!
****** ** Except they fell because the gravity failed, not due to the crack expanding.



*** Makes sense. Everything in Doctor Who is ImmuneToBullets...... Bloody Cheaters. It's just that every the Daleks can be destroyed with the right weapons. The Bastards must have some weakness, since you can't really on being lucky enough to get them to look at each other. All enemies in in the series do.
*** The Vashta Nerada don't.
*** The Angels may be immune to bullets, but are they immune to, say, hammers? Hydraulic presses? Nukes? They turn to ''stone'', not unobtainium.
*** Weren't they ''powered'' by radiation from the ''Byzantium''?
*** I had considered that, but I wasn't sure if it would work. They might make the Hydraulic Press malfunction, and as for the Hammer, well we won't know for sure until someone tries. With all the powers the Angels have, being vunerable to a simple hammer would be short sighted. They might very well be made of Unobtainium that looks like stone. That's a little off topic though. My real point is that no one has tried attacking the angels when they were clearly visible (no lights to turn off like in Flesh and Stone) and you had any weapon (like a gun). Would it work? Who knows?
*** My interpretation is that the statue is only the form the Angel appears to be in when it's quantum locked, not the actual Angel itself. Essentially, you can't kill a stone because a piece of stone ''isn't alive''; you can break it apart, but that's not the same as killing it. It just adopts a 'new' form when you're not looking. Essentially, if a builder or something took a hammer to an Angel, my guess is that when they turned their back and turned around again, the Angel would be reformed into the original shape if it was sufficiently powered up. They might need a lot of energy to do so, but they could; just look at the Angel army in "Time Of Angels"; they'd clearly been falling apart for some time, but with the energy from the ship's engines they were able to reconstruct themselves, presumably with all the stone that was littered around the caves.
*** Actually, I don't think they turn to stone at all- when "quantum-locked", they have been frozen in time and space. This deals with the Fridge Logic about smashing them while made of stone, or someone moving the four Angels that were frozen in Blink- they can't be smashed while frozen in time, because change requires time. See an above JBM for arguments and rebuttals. *Fan Wanks*
**** OK, so maybe they aren't immune to bullets, it's just that if you can see them, they're quantum locked and therefore not vulnerable. So what might work is tripwires attached to the triggers of guns. The guns would fire without any living being observing the Angels.
*** I eventually realized that the clerics weren't firing on the Angels to damage them, but instead to illuminate them with the muzzle flash of their rifles allowing the angels to be seen.
*** Here's a thought; the radiation from the Byzantium was a power source for the Angels, right? It was healing them. It was powerful enough to start turning decrepit and rotting statues into fully intact angels. So maybe the bullets ''did'' damage them, just not enough to counter the HealingFactor they effectively had while bathing in the radiation.

to:

*** ** Makes sense. Everything in Doctor Who is ImmuneToBullets...... Bloody Cheaters. It's just that every the Daleks can be destroyed with the right weapons. The Bastards must have some weakness, since you can't really on being lucky enough to get them to look at each other. All enemies in in the series do.
*** ** The Vashta Nerada don't.
*** ** The Angels may be immune to bullets, but are they immune to, say, hammers? Hydraulic presses? Nukes? They turn to ''stone'', not unobtainium.
*** ** Weren't they ''powered'' by radiation from the ''Byzantium''?
*** ** I had considered that, but I wasn't sure if it would work. They might make the Hydraulic Press malfunction, and as for the Hammer, well we won't know for sure until someone tries. With all the powers the Angels have, being vunerable to a simple hammer would be short sighted. They might very well be made of Unobtainium that looks like stone. That's a little off topic though. My real point is that no one has tried attacking the angels when they were clearly visible (no lights to turn off like in Flesh and Stone) and you had any weapon (like a gun). Would it work? Who knows?
*** ** My interpretation is that the statue is only the form the Angel appears to be in when it's quantum locked, not the actual Angel itself. Essentially, you can't kill a stone because a piece of stone ''isn't alive''; you can break it apart, but that's not the same as killing it. It just adopts a 'new' form when you're not looking. Essentially, if a builder or something took a hammer to an Angel, my guess is that when they turned their back and turned around again, the Angel would be reformed into the original shape if it was sufficiently powered up. They might need a lot of energy to do so, but they could; just look at the Angel army in "Time Of Angels"; they'd clearly been falling apart for some time, but with the energy from the ship's engines they were able to reconstruct themselves, presumably with all the stone that was littered around the caves.
*** ** Actually, I don't think they turn to stone at all- when "quantum-locked", they have been frozen in time and space. This deals with the Fridge Logic about smashing them while made of stone, or someone moving the four Angels that were frozen in Blink- they can't be smashed while frozen in time, because change requires time. See an above JBM for arguments and rebuttals. *Fan Wanks*
**** ** OK, so maybe they aren't immune to bullets, it's just that if you can see them, they're quantum locked and therefore not vulnerable. So what might work is tripwires attached to the triggers of guns. The guns would fire without any living being observing the Angels.
*** ** I eventually realized that the clerics weren't firing on the Angels to damage them, but instead to illuminate them with the muzzle flash of their rifles allowing the angels to be seen.
*** ** Here's a thought; the radiation from the Byzantium was a power source for the Angels, right? It was healing them. It was powerful enough to start turning decrepit and rotting statues into fully intact angels. So maybe the bullets ''did'' damage them, just not enough to counter the HealingFactor they effectively had while bathing in the radiation.



*** Don't forget robes that actually appear to be part of them.

to:

*** ** Don't forget robes that actually appear to be part of them.



*** Alternately, they may be similar to Galactus, in that they appear in a form familiar to whatever species is looking at them.

to:

*** ** Alternately, they may be similar to Galactus, in that they appear in a form familiar to whatever species is looking at them.



**** Alternately, they might just "hide" in shapes that lead species to praise them, angels are religious figures - the other statues shown in Blink are godesses, or patriotic images. They may be programmed to hide as something that will gather people's beliefs, such as religions, nations, etc. So, in the case of non-humanoid races, they'd still blend in.

to:

**** ** Alternately, they might just "hide" in shapes that lead species to praise them, angels are religious figures - the other statues shown in Blink are godesses, or patriotic images. They may be programmed to hide as something that will gather people's beliefs, such as religions, nations, etc. So, in the case of non-humanoid races, they'd still blend in.



*** They'll have a record of sending them out on a mission, when the threat that caused that mission to be sent out now never existed? I want that hard drive. Fair enough point on calling the Doctor, though, assuming they know who he is and will trust him.
**** Yeah, that's essentially just how the cracks behave - they erase people and events but not the things and reactions surrounding those people and events. Holes in time, not rewritten timeline. The harddrive still exists.
**** Agreed. People are erased, and the memory of them gone, but the effect they had is still there. Otherwise when Rory was erased the entire earth should have been retroactively destroyed, since it was his taking pictures with his phone that prevented the Atraxi from destroying it to kill Prisoner Zero. And when the Doctor was erased, we'd be looking at another [[Recap/DoctorWhoS30E11TurnLeft "Turn Left"]] scenario. Amy herself should never have been born if her parents weren't. The Doctor explicitly says that things are left behind (faces in photographs, half-eaten meals, luggage), so even an erased person leaves a mark on history.

to:

*** ** They'll have a record of sending them out on a mission, when the threat that caused that mission to be sent out now never existed? I want that hard drive. Fair enough point on calling the Doctor, though, assuming they know who he is and will trust him.
**** ** Yeah, that's essentially just how the cracks behave - they erase people and events but not the things and reactions surrounding those people and events. Holes in time, not rewritten timeline. The harddrive still exists.
**** ** Agreed. People are erased, and the memory of them gone, but the effect they had is still there. Otherwise when Rory was erased the entire earth should have been retroactively destroyed, since it was his taking pictures with his phone that prevented the Atraxi from destroying it to kill Prisoner Zero. And when the Doctor was erased, we'd be looking at another [[Recap/DoctorWhoS30E11TurnLeft "Turn Left"]] scenario. Amy herself should never have been born if her parents weren't. The Doctor explicitly says that things are left behind (faces in photographs, half-eaten meals, luggage), so even an erased person leaves a mark on history.



*** Actually, yes, it was established as a rule in blink. Angels were in the background and could only move ''a little'' in the brief time a character blocked them from the camera. One of the things that immersed you into that story, and to most of the angels two parter was that the audience counts as an observer. Saying they can move between frames just causes bigger problems with that angel crawling out of the TV screen earlier in the episode. To answer your question, though, the angels should't be able to move because they ''are'' being observed by the audience. The angels can't control this ability so it doesn't matter if they should be aware of the observance or not. That was really the brilliance with it.

to:

*** ** Actually, yes, it was established as a rule in blink. Angels were in the background and could only move ''a little'' in the brief time a character blocked them from the camera. One of the things that immersed you into that story, and to most of the angels two parter was that the audience counts as an observer. Saying they can move between frames just causes bigger problems with that angel crawling out of the TV screen earlier in the episode. To answer your question, though, the angels should't be able to move because they ''are'' being observed by the audience. The angels can't control this ability so it doesn't matter if they should be aware of the observance or not. That was really the brilliance with it.



*** For part of the episode, yes, but the lights were just fine when Amy tried to bluff her way past the Angels and tripped, thus causing the Angels to realize that she couldn't see them and start to move. But again, why would the Angels be immune to the fourth wall?
*** No, they were following the unofficial rule of audience count as observation. However, they moved between the frames of the show.
**** That just raises further questions with the angel coming out of the TV earlier. If these Angels can move between the frames of the show, then ''that one'' should have been able to as well. So should all the ones in blink for that matter. I wish people would stop trying to use this as a justification, I really do.
***** The way I see it, the angel in the TV didn't ''exist'' between frames. Thus, he wouldn't have been able to move.
*** We don't ''know'' that. That's just the WMG people started believing since we didn't see them move in Blink.
*** Outside of ''one scene'', we don't see them move in "Flesh and Stone", either. So, why do they keep with that confusing nonsense about moving between the frames?
**** The Angels were about [[RetGone ''to be erased from history.'']] Moving when on-screen is likely only possible in life-or-death situations. After all, the quantum-lock was a defense mechanism. At the time, it was sort of redundant.

to:

*** ** For part of the episode, yes, but the lights were just fine when Amy tried to bluff her way past the Angels and tripped, thus causing the Angels to realize that she couldn't see them and start to move. But again, why would the Angels be immune to the fourth wall?
*** ** No, they were following the unofficial rule of audience count as observation. However, they moved between the frames of the show.
**** ** That just raises further questions with the angel coming out of the TV earlier. If these Angels can move between the frames of the show, then ''that one'' should have been able to as well. So should all the ones in blink for that matter. I wish people would stop trying to use this as a justification, I really do.
***** ** The way I see it, the angel in the TV didn't ''exist'' between frames. Thus, he wouldn't have been able to move.
*** ** We don't ''know'' that. That's just the WMG people started believing since we didn't see them move in Blink.
*** ** Outside of ''one scene'', we don't see them move in "Flesh and Stone", either. So, why do they keep with that confusing nonsense about moving between the frames?
**** ** The Angels were about [[RetGone ''to be erased from history.'']] Moving when on-screen is likely only possible in life-or-death situations. After all, the quantum-lock was a defense mechanism. At the time, it was sort of redundant.



*** Not really. People aren't upset because of some imaginary observers called 'the audience.' They were given the impression after Blink that they themselves watching the Angels prevented them from moving. Since an Angel clearly ''didn't'' climb out of their eye and killed them and they continued to watch the show, the audience was not murdered by this point in time. Even if it were only an audience of one, that's all it takes.
**** I know that. But after looking into the eyes of the angel, breaking the fourth wall just wouldn't make sense exactly because of what would happen to the "imaginary observers", as you put it. You can't have the ability to stop the angels by looking but immunity against the image-of-angel-is-an-angel thing at the same time. So you can't have the impression of being involved (unless you don't look into their eyes, but why would you want that?). The breaking of the fourth wall cannot be maintained once we know there's an angel in Amy's eyes. Above, I was just suggesting that the programme played with the fourth wall, but I guess I didn't make much sense anyway. But I do think the fourth wall is re-established because of Amy's condition. I also wanted to add that from the point we find out about the angel in Amy's eyes, there isn't an instance when a frozen angel is shown but no-one is around.

to:

*** ** Not really. People aren't upset because of some imaginary observers called 'the audience.' They were given the impression after Blink that they themselves watching the Angels prevented them from moving. Since an Angel clearly ''didn't'' climb out of their eye and killed them and they continued to watch the show, the audience was not murdered by this point in time. Even if it were only an audience of one, that's all it takes.
**** ** I know that. But after looking into the eyes of the angel, breaking the fourth wall just wouldn't make sense exactly because of what would happen to the "imaginary observers", as you put it. You can't have the ability to stop the angels by looking but immunity against the image-of-angel-is-an-angel thing at the same time. So you can't have the impression of being involved (unless you don't look into their eyes, but why would you want that?). The breaking of the fourth wall cannot be maintained once we know there's an angel in Amy's eyes. Above, I was just suggesting that the programme played with the fourth wall, but I guess I didn't make much sense anyway. But I do think the fourth wall is re-established because of Amy's condition. I also wanted to add that from the point we find out about the angel in Amy's eyes, there isn't an instance when a frozen angel is shown but no-one is around.



*** You would need to use a concave mirror or lens to concentrate the light. For example [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_nuvPKIi8 Solar Furnace Research Facility]] has a concentrating mirror that can heat 3500 degrees Celsius with 2 square meters of sunlight. It is unlikely that Amy would have a concave mirror at all, let alone one with a long enough focal length to concentrate the light on the fish alien.
*** Possibly a combination of the above "he's in his exposed state" and the fact that she got him directly in the face. Since my other favorite British show is ''Series/{{Being Human|UK}},'' I remembered that the vampires on that show aren't explosively allergic to sunlight, but they are sensitive to it, especially their eyes. Maybe having it shined directly into his face created a direct link to his brain?

to:

*** ** You would need to use a concave mirror or lens to concentrate the light. For example [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_nuvPKIi8 Solar Furnace Research Facility]] has a concentrating mirror that can heat 3500 degrees Celsius with 2 square meters of sunlight. It is unlikely that Amy would have a concave mirror at all, let alone one with a long enough focal length to concentrate the light on the fish alien.
*** ** Possibly a combination of the above "he's in his exposed state" and the fact that she got him directly in the face. Since my other favorite British show is ''Series/{{Being Human|UK}},'' I remembered that the vampires on that show aren't explosively allergic to sunlight, but they are sensitive to it, especially their eyes. Maybe having it shined directly into his face created a direct link to his brain?



*** The Doctor admits throughout the series (as a whole) that he CAN die despite the Time Lords way of cheating death with Regeneration. If they're injured to a point that causes instant death, Regeneration is more than likely impossible. It's when he's in the process of dying that his Regeneration process starts. The Doctor seems to fall in with the likes of Wolverine and Zombies in which the only way to kill 'em is to [[LosingYourHead remove their heads.]]
*** Presumably the Doctor, rather than regenerating, can elect simply to die, as with The Master in Last of the Time Lords.

to:

*** ** The Doctor admits throughout the series (as a whole) that he CAN die despite the Time Lords way of cheating death with Regeneration. If they're injured to a point that causes instant death, Regeneration is more than likely impossible. It's when he's in the process of dying that his Regeneration process starts. The Doctor seems to fall in with the likes of Wolverine and Zombies in which the only way to kill 'em is to [[LosingYourHead remove their heads.]]
*** ** Presumably the Doctor, rather than regenerating, can elect simply to die, as with The Master in Last of the Time Lords.



*** It still happened it just doesn't make total sense in peoples memories anymore. The cracks create ''gaps'' in the timeline. They're essentially ripping events and people out of existence but leaving behind everything connected to those bits: those events now don't make total sense, which is exactly the point, and part of why the cracks are so dangerous -think of it like a tapestry: each event or person is a thread, and the more threads you remove, the less the overall tapestry makes sense and the more likely it is to collapse completely.
*** Alternately, think of a film with a scene missing in the middle (or some of the early Doctor Who serials that have MissingEpisodes, which seems appropriate). Scene A happened. Scene C happened. How did we get from one to the other? Dunno, but ''something'' happened.
*** History papers over the events. Perhaps some other hospital worker noticed the difference, when they were working the shift that should have belonged to Rory. Maybe Amy's friend Jeff helped out. Maybe tap dancing Cybermen came down from the sky and took Prisoner Zero hostage. We'll probably find out soon, however.
*** Seconding tap-dancing Cybermen.

to:

*** ** It still happened it just doesn't make total sense in peoples memories anymore. The cracks create ''gaps'' in the timeline. They're essentially ripping events and people out of existence but leaving behind everything connected to those bits: those events now don't make total sense, which is exactly the point, and part of why the cracks are so dangerous -think of it like a tapestry: each event or person is a thread, and the more threads you remove, the less the overall tapestry makes sense and the more likely it is to collapse completely.
*** ** Alternately, think of a film with a scene missing in the middle (or some of the early Doctor Who serials that have MissingEpisodes, which seems appropriate). Scene A happened. Scene C happened. How did we get from one to the other? Dunno, but ''something'' happened.
*** ** History papers over the events. Perhaps some other hospital worker noticed the difference, when they were working the shift that should have belonged to Rory. Maybe Amy's friend Jeff helped out. Maybe tap dancing Cybermen came down from the sky and took Prisoner Zero hostage. We'll probably find out soon, however.
*** ** Seconding tap-dancing Cybermen.



*** It ''really'' wasn't pragmatic. Sure, one of the two negotiators could turn off the drill (for awhile. If it's just their agreement and not official than one day this could change) but that wasn't all the Silurians were after. They wanted to come up to the surface and coexist with the humans. The Doctor took two random people (universe crack in her head or not, no one official is going to think Amy is at all important aside from her traveling with the Doctor) and told them to decide terms of a treaty that would allow the Silurians to share the planet. If this treaty hadn't been sabotaged (and they hadn't all suddenly given up far too easily because of one fanatic) then what would have happened? They would have dropped by the prime minister or parliament or even the UN and tell them to accept these terms for sharing their planet when Amy and the other woman have no experience as negotiators and perhaps the government doesn't ''want'' to share the planet no matter what the terms?
*** It's pragmatic in the sense that time is of the essence and, crucially, they're the only ones there. Plus, this is the Doctor we're talking about. The Doctor who not only can sweet talk a camel to cross a desert with no legs, but the Doctor who most governments and militaries (and yes, the UN, which conveniently has that whole paramilitary organization thing he's been closely associated with for years) by this point have to know on some level has saved the planet more times than anyone else in the history of the world. At this point, he tells you something's a good idea and if, you know, you feel like getting on your high horse about it the entire human race might get wiped out, you ''listen''. Plus, when it comes to experience, ''who else'' has experience in this kind of thing, government or not? How many peace treaties with subterranean reptile people have most diplomats ever dealt with? They'd probably stand just as much chance of arsing things up as anyone, possibly more since there's a whole ego thing alluded to above to deal with as well.
**** The governments haven't been shown to blindly follow the Doctor and if they don't like sharing their planet at all or under the terms of Amy's treaty then the Doctor endorsing it won't change that. They could very well decide to go to war over it or the Silurians could basically do what they did in canon and wait until humans already share their planet before coming back up since it really makes no difference to them. As for Amy and the other woman being the only ones there...that means nothing if the treaty is ultimately rejected because they aren't approved treaty-makers who know anything about what kinds of things the governments would want.
*** True, they might not blindly follow him, but he has enough connections (through UNIT and Jack's Torchwood, if it's still around) and they have enough experience with the Doctor -- plus a history of things getting very bad very quickly when they ignore his advice -- to suggest that just dismissing him and his advice out of hand, especially for no better reason than pique at being left out, is probably not going to end well. Plus, there's that whole "we have the potential to completely wipe out human civilization from underneath" bargaining chip that would probably make them think twice before rejecting anything out of hand. You might not fully like their terms, but you don't pick needless fights with people who are in a pretty good position against you, either -- especially if someone comes along with mutually acceptable terms for co-existence. As for Amy and Other Woman's treaty, it might not be all-encompassing, but it's a starting point and, since they're the only ones there and the only ones the Silurians are willing to give access or talk to at that point, it's them or no one, really.

to:

*** ** It ''really'' wasn't pragmatic. Sure, one of the two negotiators could turn off the drill (for awhile. If it's just their agreement and not official than one day this could change) but that wasn't all the Silurians were after. They wanted to come up to the surface and coexist with the humans. The Doctor took two random people (universe crack in her head or not, no one official is going to think Amy is at all important aside from her traveling with the Doctor) and told them to decide terms of a treaty that would allow the Silurians to share the planet. If this treaty hadn't been sabotaged (and they hadn't all suddenly given up far too easily because of one fanatic) then what would have happened? They would have dropped by the prime minister or parliament or even the UN and tell them to accept these terms for sharing their planet when Amy and the other woman have no experience as negotiators and perhaps the government doesn't ''want'' to share the planet no matter what the terms?
*** ** It's pragmatic in the sense that time is of the essence and, crucially, they're the only ones there. Plus, this is the Doctor we're talking about. The Doctor who not only can sweet talk a camel to cross a desert with no legs, but the Doctor who most governments and militaries (and yes, the UN, which conveniently has that whole paramilitary organization thing he's been closely associated with for years) by this point have to know on some level has saved the planet more times than anyone else in the history of the world. At this point, he tells you something's a good idea and if, you know, you feel like getting on your high horse about it the entire human race might get wiped out, you ''listen''. Plus, when it comes to experience, ''who else'' has experience in this kind of thing, government or not? How many peace treaties with subterranean reptile people have most diplomats ever dealt with? They'd probably stand just as much chance of arsing things up as anyone, possibly more since there's a whole ego thing alluded to above to deal with as well.
**** ** The governments haven't been shown to blindly follow the Doctor and if they don't like sharing their planet at all or under the terms of Amy's treaty then the Doctor endorsing it won't change that. They could very well decide to go to war over it or the Silurians could basically do what they did in canon and wait until humans already share their planet before coming back up since it really makes no difference to them. As for Amy and the other woman being the only ones there...that means nothing if the treaty is ultimately rejected because they aren't approved treaty-makers who know anything about what kinds of things the governments would want.
*** ** True, they might not blindly follow him, but he has enough connections (through UNIT and Jack's Torchwood, if it's still around) and they have enough experience with the Doctor -- plus a history of things getting very bad very quickly when they ignore his advice -- to suggest that just dismissing him and his advice out of hand, especially for no better reason than pique at being left out, is probably not going to end well. Plus, there's that whole "we have the potential to completely wipe out human civilization from underneath" bargaining chip that would probably make them think twice before rejecting anything out of hand. You might not fully like their terms, but you don't pick needless fights with people who are in a pretty good position against you, either -- especially if someone comes along with mutually acceptable terms for co-existence. As for Amy and Other Woman's treaty, it might not be all-encompassing, but it's a starting point and, since they're the only ones there and the only ones the Silurians are willing to give access or talk to at that point, it's them or no one, really.



*** Yet the Doctor specifically states that it's a 'TARDIS' not just a 'timeship'.
**** Actually, to be specific, he states that it's "someone's ''attempt'' to build a TARDIS." It's never been said that only Time Lords can or have built [=TARDISes=] -- in fact, "The War Games" establishes the opposite.
***** Not so; I'm not sure if it specifically stated so in the episode, but Expanded Universe establishes that the War Chief in the War Games was, in fact, a renegade Time Lord (Note: If you meet a renegade Time Lord, statistically, they're not friendly). The War Chief's SIDRATs were some form of cannibalized TARDIS. It's not that the Time Lords are the only ones who can build a Time Ship; they're the only ones that build [=TARDISes=], that specific type of Time Ship. It is perfectly conceivable, however, that other civilizations get their hands on similar technology and create something similar to a TARDIS.

to:

*** ** Yet the Doctor specifically states that it's a 'TARDIS' not just a 'timeship'.
**** ** Actually, to be specific, he states that it's "someone's ''attempt'' to build a TARDIS." It's never been said that only Time Lords can or have built [=TARDISes=] -- in fact, "The War Games" establishes the opposite.
***** ** Not so; I'm not sure if it specifically stated so in the episode, but Expanded Universe establishes that the War Chief in the War Games was, in fact, a renegade Time Lord (Note: If you meet a renegade Time Lord, statistically, they're not friendly). The War Chief's SIDRATs were some form of cannibalized TARDIS. It's not that the Time Lords are the only ones who can build a Time Ship; they're the only ones that build [=TARDISes=], that specific type of Time Ship. It is perfectly conceivable, however, that other civilizations get their hands on similar technology and create something similar to a TARDIS.



*** I imagine the Timeship to be something like River's new timedrive. The race that designed it probably didn't have a good grasp of the vortex and secrets of time and space but know enough to make as getting at. Kind of like someone who knows the ingredients to gunpowder, but not the principals. They don't fully grasp why the machine works, but it does, and so it's enough for their purposes.
**** But, the Doctor specifically says it's a TARDIS and not a 'timeship', and has previously distinguished clearly between the two.
***** He may not have been speaking particularly exactly, and just meant that it was a timeship that worked on principles remarkably similar to those of a TARDIS. Also note that the interior may have been basically a simplified TARDIS, but it was a simplified TARDIS that ''didn't work'' properly and was set up to run on a completely different power source.
***** Just out of curiosity; ''when'' was this distinction made? And what precisely is the distinction? Because it would seem that any distinction would essentially boil down to "A TARDIS is a specific type of timeship."
****** The sixth Doctor special ''The Two Doctors'' explicitly states that the Time Lords used to directly interfere whenever another race came close to developing TARDIS like technology - in this case they forced the Second Doctor to find some way to stop it's development. No more Time Lords = Time Lord like technology springing up across the universe. As for the question ''What is the distinction between a TARDIS and a regular Time Machine'' remember what that name stands for: Time and Relative Dimensions In Space. Not only is it a time machine but it can travel anywhere in the universe '''and''' is capable of travelling the multiverse (albeit at extreme risk). Remember Jack Harkness's Chula Warship from ''The Empty Child?'' that thing was probably far closer to what was actually being built on that house.
******* I could be wrong, but aren't TARDIS grown and not built?
******** Yet another wonderful example of contradicting Doctor Who canon; the TARDIS was never considered to really be 'alive' in Classic Who; in a really early first Doctor episode, "The Edge of Destruction", the Doctor scoffs at the idea of a sentient TARDIS, and insists it's a machine. So... just ignore it.

to:

*** ** I imagine the Timeship to be something like River's new timedrive. The race that designed it probably didn't have a good grasp of the vortex and secrets of time and space but know enough to make as getting at. Kind of like someone who knows the ingredients to gunpowder, but not the principals. They don't fully grasp why the machine works, but it does, and so it's enough for their purposes.
**** ** But, the Doctor specifically says it's a TARDIS and not a 'timeship', and has previously distinguished clearly between the two.
***** ** He may not have been speaking particularly exactly, and just meant that it was a timeship that worked on principles remarkably similar to those of a TARDIS. Also note that the interior may have been basically a simplified TARDIS, but it was a simplified TARDIS that ''didn't work'' properly and was set up to run on a completely different power source.
***** ** Just out of curiosity; ''when'' was this distinction made? And what precisely is the distinction? Because it would seem that any distinction would essentially boil down to "A TARDIS is a specific type of timeship."
****** ** The sixth Doctor special ''The Two Doctors'' explicitly states that the Time Lords used to directly interfere whenever another race came close to developing TARDIS like technology - in this case they forced the Second Doctor to find some way to stop it's development. No more Time Lords = Time Lord like technology springing up across the universe. As for the question ''What is the distinction between a TARDIS and a regular Time Machine'' remember what that name stands for: Time and Relative Dimensions In Space. Not only is it a time machine but it can travel anywhere in the universe '''and''' is capable of travelling the multiverse (albeit at extreme risk). Remember Jack Harkness's Chula Warship from ''The Empty Child?'' that thing was probably far closer to what was actually being built on that house.
******* ** I could be wrong, but aren't TARDIS grown and not built?
******** ** Yet another wonderful example of contradicting Doctor Who canon; the TARDIS was never considered to really be 'alive' in Classic Who; in a really early first Doctor episode, "The Edge of Destruction", the Doctor scoffs at the idea of a sentient TARDIS, and insists it's a machine. So... just ignore it.



*** Except the only way that would have been possible would be if the way up to the ship somehow went through the roof of the real building... and, despite this unknown method of access, somehow left no damage to the roof when the ship ''imploded''.
**** Or the house has an attic with stairs leading up to it? Or stairs leading up to the roof?
***** The attic thing won't work (because you've still got to get from said attic to the ship on the roof)... as to the second: Do bungalows really have that? I can't see anyone needing roof access that much, but...

to:

*** ** Except the only way that would have been possible would be if the way up to the ship somehow went through the roof of the real building... and, despite this unknown method of access, somehow left no damage to the roof when the ship ''imploded''.
**** ** Or the house has an attic with stairs leading up to it? Or stairs leading up to the roof?
***** ** The attic thing won't work (because you've still got to get from said attic to the ship on the roof)... as to the second: Do bungalows really have that? I can't see anyone needing roof access that much, but...



*** The Doctor gave the impression that only time travelling would leave those things lying about. The ring stayed because it was in the Tardis, and Amy's memories can return because she's travelled in time, but there shouldn't be anything like that involved with the photograph - unless the following episode will reveal something significant about it, ofcourse.
*** "People fall out of the world sometimes, but they always leave traces, little things we can't quite account for. ''Faces in photographs'', luggage, half-eaten meals... rings. Nothing is ever forgotten, not completely." No mention that time travel is necessary for this to happen, and "Nothing is ever forgotten" sounds like an absolute statement rather than something that only applies in specific circumstances.
*** Plus, Amy can bring back things that have been erased, such as her parents, because of her close proximity to the Time Crack. So not everything was erased because she didn't completely forget.
**** I'm sticking with my "the timeline is a tapestry" theory: each person, event, etc is a part of the overall tapestry. The cracks in time essentially remove some of those threads, but the rest of the tapestry stil remains - at least up until a certain point, where you've removed so much that there are fewer threads than there are holes and everything just... falls apart.

to:

*** ** The Doctor gave the impression that only time travelling would leave those things lying about. The ring stayed because it was in the Tardis, and Amy's memories can return because she's travelled in time, but there shouldn't be anything like that involved with the photograph - unless the following episode will reveal something significant about it, ofcourse.
*** ** "People fall out of the world sometimes, but they always leave traces, little things we can't quite account for. ''Faces in photographs'', luggage, half-eaten meals... rings. Nothing is ever forgotten, not completely." No mention that time travel is necessary for this to happen, and "Nothing is ever forgotten" sounds like an absolute statement rather than something that only applies in specific circumstances.
*** ** Plus, Amy can bring back things that have been erased, such as her parents, because of her close proximity to the Time Crack. So not everything was erased because she didn't completely forget.
**** ** I'm sticking with my "the timeline is a tapestry" theory: each person, event, etc is a part of the overall tapestry. The cracks in time essentially remove some of those threads, but the rest of the tapestry stil remains - at least up until a certain point, where you've removed so much that there are fewer threads than there are holes and everything just... falls apart.



*** You could make a case that she ''did'' bring Rory back, in a sense, since the Auton Rory's memories were taken from her and he was notably different from all the other Autons (resisted his programming, remained 'human', remained alive when all the other Autons had been wiped out of existence, etc); she just happened to bring him back inside the body of the Auton duplicate. In any case, ''real'' Rory was still dead even ''before'' he was wiped from existence, so would still be dead anyway. Alternatively, the universe wasn't rebooting itself then, and everything else Amy brought back -- her parents and even the Doctor -- were centred around her remembering them when the universe was being rebooted.

to:

*** ** You could make a case that she ''did'' bring Rory back, in a sense, since the Auton Rory's memories were taken from her and he was notably different from all the other Autons (resisted his programming, remained 'human', remained alive when all the other Autons had been wiped out of existence, etc); she just happened to bring him back inside the body of the Auton duplicate. In any case, ''real'' Rory was still dead even ''before'' he was wiped from existence, so would still be dead anyway. Alternatively, the universe wasn't rebooting itself then, and everything else Amy brought back -- her parents and even the Doctor -- were centred around her remembering them when the universe was being rebooted.



*** No, it specifically said it was still 5145, and River hadn't picked up the Vortex Manipulator yet.

to:

*** ** No, it specifically said it was still 5145, and River hadn't picked up the Vortex Manipulator yet.



*** Don't the credits SAY she's Liz 10? Plus, that makes no sense. For what reason would the writers pull a [[Recap/DoctorWhoS30E17E18TheEndOfTime Verity Newman]] and use an identical descendant in this situation? Yes, the Doctor's probably friends with most of the royal family, but come on.

to:

*** ** Don't the credits SAY she's Liz 10? Plus, that makes no sense. For what reason would the writers pull a [[Recap/DoctorWhoS30E17E18TheEndOfTime Verity Newman]] and use an identical descendant in this situation? Yes, the Doctor's probably friends with most of the royal family, but come on.



*** Daleks - Timetravel.
*** Cybermen - Mondas cybermen from this point in history, useing space travel.
*** Sontarans - We already know they are fighting a war which had, a few years ago been raging for 40,000 years. This means they pre - date the romans by millenia.
*** Silurians - A group that we didn't know about that lived during that period.
*** Nestene - We don't know how old it is.
*** etc.

to:

*** ** Daleks - Timetravel.
*** ** Cybermen - Mondas cybermen from this point in history, useing space travel.
*** ** Sontarans - We already know they are fighting a war which had, a few years ago been raging for 40,000 years. This means they pre - date the romans by millenia.
*** ** Silurians - A group that we didn't know about that lived during that period.
*** ** Nestene - We don't know how old it is.
*** ** etc.



*** Please clarify. For instance, how would an Auton [[spoiler:almost drown]] (and yes, I am aware that the first entry in The Curse of the Black Spot folder says the opposite), or be a kid in the mid-1990s?

to:

*** ** Please clarify. For instance, how would an Auton [[spoiler:almost drown]] (and yes, I am aware that the first entry in The Curse of the Black Spot folder says the opposite), or be a kid in the mid-1990s?



*** They had an alliance, so any one group with time travel could carry the others. Not to mention, we don't know how far in the future the aliens came from, and they could have eventually got ahold of some.
**** The Judoon etc. have presumably have been around for more than 2000 years as a race. It's entirely plausible that the Daleks found some Judoon, Nestene etc. from 102AD to help out. And it's entirely plausible that the Doctor's been further into these races' pasts (and peeved them off) off-camera...
*** The Sontarans are also time travelers with their Osmic Projectors (cf. "The Time Warrior"). It's crappy time travel, but it's probably good enough to let them call up somebody and hitch a ride. And it's entirely possible that, considering they have the basic technology, it could have improved enough to be useful. by "The Pandorica Opens."
*** Since the Judoon are basically security thugs for hire, anyone hiring them could reasonably be expected to give them a lift to places they can't get to on their own. "Back in time" certainly qualifies.

to:

*** ** They had an alliance, so any one group with time travel could carry the others. Not to mention, we don't know how far in the future the aliens came from, and they could have eventually got ahold of some.
**** ** The Judoon etc. have presumably have been around for more than 2000 years as a race. It's entirely plausible that the Daleks found some Judoon, Nestene etc. from 102AD to help out. And it's entirely plausible that the Doctor's been further into these races' pasts (and peeved them off) off-camera...
*** ** The Sontarans are also time travelers with their Osmic Projectors (cf. "The Time Warrior"). It's crappy time travel, but it's probably good enough to let them call up somebody and hitch a ride. And it's entirely possible that, considering they have the basic technology, it could have improved enough to be useful. by "The Pandorica Opens."
*** ** Since the Judoon are basically security thugs for hire, anyone hiring them could reasonably be expected to give them a lift to places they can't get to on their own. "Back in time" certainly qualifies.



*** That was a [[http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091222154334/tardis/images/e/eb/Hoix2.jpg Hoix]], which also appeared in an episode of ''Torchwood''. [[http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/c/c8/Weevil.jpg This]] is a Weevil.

to:

*** ** That was a [[http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091222154334/tardis/images/e/eb/Hoix2.jpg Hoix]], which also appeared in an episode of ''Torchwood''. [[http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/c/c8/Weevil.jpg This]] is a Weevil.



*** Yeah, about that.

to:

*** ** Yeah, about that.



*** I agree with the above explanation, but I also have one of my own: the Doctor was only being erased from the moment he stepped into the cracks onwards, i.e. only his eleventh incarnation. If you look you'll see that most of the dangers to the world in this series took place in the future, so by Amy's wedding wouldn't have happened yet - maybe a few more people were put into comas by Prisoner Zero, Venice sank and Vincent van Gough was eaten, but that hardly a crapsack world makes. Even the Atraxi incinirating the "human residence" only happened because they followed the Doctor to Earth, it might have taken them significanly longer to arrive without him.
*** As someone above mentioned, the Doctor was wiped from living MEMORY, not all of existence. The Time Cracks removed the Doctor from the PRESENT, not the entire timeline of the universe. People simply forgot about him. The same thing happened to Rory.
**** It seems pretty clear that the way the cracks were 'unwinding' the Doctor that he -- and by extension his effects on the universe -- were being erased.
*** The Pandorica kept Amy alive. It kept her memories alive. When the doctor rewired it, he used those memories to populate universe 2.0. The universe is as Amy remembers it, which is why the Doctor still exists. Season 2010 was not removed from existance at all.
*** You're all missing the most obvious explanation. This is a universe where Earth is literally all that exists. There are no stars in the sky and from the perspective of the people living on this Earth there never have been. No stars, no alien invasions. No aliens, full stop. The Earth is still there only because it's at the eye of the storm, the last thing to be erased.
**** That's ''before'' the Doctor reboots the universe, however; the OP is talking about ''after'' he does so.

to:

*** ** I agree with the above explanation, but I also have one of my own: the Doctor was only being erased from the moment he stepped into the cracks onwards, i.e. only his eleventh incarnation. If you look you'll see that most of the dangers to the world in this series took place in the future, so by Amy's wedding wouldn't have happened yet - maybe a few more people were put into comas by Prisoner Zero, Venice sank and Vincent van Gough was eaten, but that hardly a crapsack world makes. Even the Atraxi incinirating the "human residence" only happened because they followed the Doctor to Earth, it might have taken them significanly longer to arrive without him.
*** ** As someone above mentioned, the Doctor was wiped from living MEMORY, not all of existence. The Time Cracks removed the Doctor from the PRESENT, not the entire timeline of the universe. People simply forgot about him. The same thing happened to Rory.
**** ** It seems pretty clear that the way the cracks were 'unwinding' the Doctor that he -- and by extension his effects on the universe -- were being erased.
*** ** The Pandorica kept Amy alive. It kept her memories alive. When the doctor rewired it, he used those memories to populate universe 2.0. The universe is as Amy remembers it, which is why the Doctor still exists. Season 2010 was not removed from existance at all.
*** ** You're all missing the most obvious explanation. This is a universe where Earth is literally all that exists. There are no stars in the sky and from the perspective of the people living on this Earth there never have been. No stars, no alien invasions. No aliens, full stop. The Earth is still there only because it's at the eye of the storm, the last thing to be erased.
**** ** That's ''before'' the Doctor reboots the universe, however; the OP is talking about ''after'' he does so.



*** That doesn't match any of the events or explanations thereof: River explicitly says the Doctor will never have existed, and if it was only the memories of him and not his existence that had been erased, he wouldn't have started living in reverse. The Doctor never existed, just like Rory and the stars never existed, but like he said earlier: there's always something left behind, some trace... like the photo of Rory or River's diary. Amy remembers the Doctor, and that makes him exist again.

to:

*** ** That doesn't match any of the events or explanations thereof: River explicitly says the Doctor will never have existed, and if it was only the memories of him and not his existence that had been erased, he wouldn't have started living in reverse. The Doctor never existed, just like Rory and the stars never existed, but like he said earlier: there's always something left behind, some trace... like the photo of Rory or River's diary. Amy remembers the Doctor, and that makes him exist again.



*** Earth is stated on numerous occasions to be primitive and backwater (at least in ''Series/TheSarahJaneAdventures''), but I don't recall anywhere stating it's "in the middle of nowhere". Wasn't there a race from Alpha Centauri? That's as near a star system as you can get. And that's not even getting into the Martians and Venusians.

to:

*** ** Earth is stated on numerous occasions to be primitive and backwater (at least in ''Series/TheSarahJaneAdventures''), but I don't recall anywhere stating it's "in the middle of nowhere". Wasn't there a race from Alpha Centauri? That's as near a star system as you can get. And that's not even getting into the Martians and Venusians.



*** That's the point, though -- we've already seen it. Why should the writers and producers want to redo something we've already seen, especially since we've already seen it barely a year and a bit before this episode and we would only be seeing it for five minutes tops until Amy remembered the Doctor again anyway?

to:

*** ** That's the point, though -- we've already seen it. Why should the writers and producers want to redo something we've already seen, especially since we've already seen it barely a year and a bit before this episode and we would only be seeing it for five minutes tops until Amy remembered the Doctor again anyway?



*** But once the Doctor exists again, his previous incarnations took care of ''everything he had ever run into on Earth'' so why would Eleven need to concern himself with that? That the enemies he defeated weren't off terrorizing Earth can be explained the same way that River found a picture of Rory in Amy's room while he still didn't exist.

to:

*** ** But once the Doctor exists again, his previous incarnations took care of ''everything he had ever run into on Earth'' so why would Eleven need to concern himself with that? That the enemies he defeated weren't off terrorizing Earth can be explained the same way that River found a picture of Rory in Amy's room while he still didn't exist.



*** Ignoring the fact that they usually don't win due to never just shooting/exterminating him at the soonest possible opportunity, my point was more that the TARDIS being destroyed should never have been a threat to the Alliance once the Daleks decided to chip in. They've already tried to destroy the Doctor's TARDIS more than once (Parting of the Ways, Journey's End, etc.) and presumably destroyed them by the truckload during the Time War. Whatever it is that causes a TARDIS' destruction to end the universe, the Daleks should know how to either contain it or nullify it entirely. Otherwise they could never combat one safely, and they obviously have if the Doctor himself considers them experts at it.
**** Worth noting that the emphasis is still on 'tried' when discussing the Daleks' efforts to destroy the Doctor's TARDIS and we never actually see them destroy any others (although it is a reasonable assumption) -- for all we know, their successful efforts could still have fractured the universe. However, there's different ways to destroy something with different effects; a firecracker is different to an artillery shell is different to a nuclear bomb. Presumably the way the Daleks managed to destroy [=TARDISes=] was an equivalent to an 'artillery shell' and the way the 'silence' was planning to destroy the TARDIS was equivalent to a 'nuclear bomb'. But since we don't even know what the nature of the silence is yet, we don't know how this weapon differed, and it's made fairly clear from the way they automatically blame the Doctor for the destruction of the TARDIS that the Alliance -- including the Daleks -- aren't even aware that the 'silence' exists, meaning they can hardly be expected to be able to contain or nullify what it is doing. And since the OP explicitly questions why the Alliance is necessary, each of it's members are races that, for whatever reason, have tried to take on the Doctor and failed miserably; safety in numbers, presumably.
**** The alliance is probably worried about a StableTimeLoop - even if they have techniques for destroying [=TARDISes=] safely, this is the Doctor they're dealing with. It is entirely possible that when faced with destruction the Doctor would come up with some crazy plan that no previous Time Lord had ever tried in the same circumstances, only this time it backfires and makes the destruction of the TARDIS much worse than expected. Locking him up (and presumably then looking for the TARDIS and trying to disable it in a more controlled setting) is a lot safer.
*** Personally, I'm more surprised the Daleks didn't try to hijack the silence for their own purposes.
*** Err, how? Even the audience currently doesn't know the cause behind the silence.
**** It seems fairly clear, given how the members of the Alliance explicitly blame the Doctor for the destruction of the universe, that the Alliance aren't even aware that the 'silence' exists.

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*** ** Ignoring the fact that they usually don't win due to never just shooting/exterminating him at the soonest possible opportunity, my point was more that the TARDIS being destroyed should never have been a threat to the Alliance once the Daleks decided to chip in. They've already tried to destroy the Doctor's TARDIS more than once (Parting of the Ways, Journey's End, etc.) and presumably destroyed them by the truckload during the Time War. Whatever it is that causes a TARDIS' destruction to end the universe, the Daleks should know how to either contain it or nullify it entirely. Otherwise they could never combat one safely, and they obviously have if the Doctor himself considers them experts at it.
**** ** Worth noting that the emphasis is still on 'tried' when discussing the Daleks' efforts to destroy the Doctor's TARDIS and we never actually see them destroy any others (although it is a reasonable assumption) -- for all we know, their successful efforts could still have fractured the universe. However, there's different ways to destroy something with different effects; a firecracker is different to an artillery shell is different to a nuclear bomb. Presumably the way the Daleks managed to destroy [=TARDISes=] was an equivalent to an 'artillery shell' and the way the 'silence' was planning to destroy the TARDIS was equivalent to a 'nuclear bomb'. But since we don't even know what the nature of the silence is yet, we don't know how this weapon differed, and it's made fairly clear from the way they automatically blame the Doctor for the destruction of the TARDIS that the Alliance -- including the Daleks -- aren't even aware that the 'silence' exists, meaning they can hardly be expected to be able to contain or nullify what it is doing. And since the OP explicitly questions why the Alliance is necessary, each of it's members are races that, for whatever reason, have tried to take on the Doctor and failed miserably; safety in numbers, presumably.
**** ** The alliance is probably worried about a StableTimeLoop - even if they have techniques for destroying [=TARDISes=] safely, this is the Doctor they're dealing with. It is entirely possible that when faced with destruction the Doctor would come up with some crazy plan that no previous Time Lord had ever tried in the same circumstances, only this time it backfires and makes the destruction of the TARDIS much worse than expected. Locking him up (and presumably then looking for the TARDIS and trying to disable it in a more controlled setting) is a lot safer.
*** ** Personally, I'm more surprised the Daleks didn't try to hijack the silence for their own purposes.
*** ** Err, how? Even the audience currently doesn't know the cause behind the silence.
**** ** It seems fairly clear, given how the members of the Alliance explicitly blame the Doctor for the destruction of the universe, that the Alliance aren't even aware that the 'silence' exists.



*** Amy straight-up pats her younger self on the head. That alone is a paradox.
**** Yeah but paradoxes happen all the time in Doctor Who. Rose changing her own past by knocking herself and the Doctor out of the way when she didn't remember that having happened was what made it a big enough paradox to send in the reapers. Touching past selves probably isn't a big enough paradox to send in the reapers normally but since they were already there, it just made the situation worse and strengthened the reapers. It likely wouldn't have been a reaper-worthy paradox if Rose had remembered her past self knocking her over to save her father the first time but since it didn't and she changed her own time stream in such an obvious way...

to:

*** ** Amy straight-up pats her younger self on the head. That alone is a paradox.
**** ** Yeah but paradoxes happen all the time in Doctor Who. Rose changing her own past by knocking herself and the Doctor out of the way when she didn't remember that having happened was what made it a big enough paradox to send in the reapers. Touching past selves probably isn't a big enough paradox to send in the reapers normally but since they were already there, it just made the situation worse and strengthened the reapers. It likely wouldn't have been a reaper-worthy paradox if Rose had remembered her past self knocking her over to save her father the first time but since it didn't and she changed her own time stream in such an obvious way...



*** Fix WHAT? Earth IS the universe at that point.

to:

*** ** Fix WHAT? Earth IS the universe at that point.



*** The Doctor was very adamant about Amy remembering her parents in order to bring them back. If the Doctor closing the cracks brought back everyone who was eaten by the cracks except for the Doctor, he might as well not have bothered. This is probably FridgeHorror, actually. Rory, the Doctor, and Amy's parents can't possibly be the only ones eaten by the cracks pre-Stonehenge but she didn't remember them to bring them back. The Angels were still gotten rid of that way.

to:

*** ** The Doctor was very adamant about Amy remembering her parents in order to bring them back. If the Doctor closing the cracks brought back everyone who was eaten by the cracks except for the Doctor, he might as well not have bothered. This is probably FridgeHorror, actually. Rory, the Doctor, and Amy's parents can't possibly be the only ones eaten by the cracks pre-Stonehenge but she didn't remember them to bring them back. The Angels were still gotten rid of that way.



*** What does that even mean? Sorry if I'm whining about a [[WatsonianVersusDoylist Watsonian]] approach to this but...fuck!
**** It means that if the writers want to write something that overrides previous canon, they have a built-in excuse; "it didn't make it into the rebooted universe." And seriously... chill out, dude. It's not ''that'' confusing.
*** What it really boils down to is that, due to some of the events in previous seasons, the population of earth ''should'' be very jaded to things like the presence of aliens, Cyberman, attacking Daleks and other assorted whatnot. This can be a permanent scar on the 'Verse, so the whole time erasure thing actually gives them an excuse to make like it all never happened, while the relevant individuals can still remember all the relevant events when needed to. I'm under the impression that the Doctor, Time Lords in general and, for that matter, time travellers in general don't operate on a time line that actually ''tries'' to sync with the "real" timeline at all. In other words, the universe's timeline changes but time travellers don't alter their personal timeline to fit. This is probably part of what the Doctor means when he refers to himself as an extremely complex temporal event... he's the sum of a series of possible universes that ''never happened''.

to:

*** ** What does that even mean? Sorry if I'm whining about a [[WatsonianVersusDoylist Watsonian]] approach to this but...fuck!
**** ** It means that if the writers want to write something that overrides previous canon, they have a built-in excuse; "it didn't make it into the rebooted universe." And seriously... chill out, dude. It's not ''that'' confusing.
*** ** What it really boils down to is that, due to some of the events in previous seasons, the population of earth ''should'' be very jaded to things like the presence of aliens, Cyberman, attacking Daleks and other assorted whatnot. This can be a permanent scar on the 'Verse, so the whole time erasure thing actually gives them an excuse to make like it all never happened, while the relevant individuals can still remember all the relevant events when needed to. I'm under the impression that the Doctor, Time Lords in general and, for that matter, time travellers in general don't operate on a time line that actually ''tries'' to sync with the "real" timeline at all. In other words, the universe's timeline changes but time travellers don't alter their personal timeline to fit. This is probably part of what the Doctor means when he refers to himself as an extremely complex temporal event... he's the sum of a series of possible universes that ''never happened''.



*** Source please.
*** Really? On TV Tropes? Go look it up on the [[WikiRule Doctor Who wiki]]. They'll have a source there.
**** Nope, a quick look at the Doctor Who wiki mentions no such reference apart from a token reference of the discontinuity mentioned in the first bullet, AND they're referred to [[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberman_%28Pete%27s_World%29 here]], [[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Cybermen_%28Pete%27s_World%29_-_List_of_Appearances here]] and in hyperlinks [[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Alliance here]] as Cybus (or in their words "Pete's World") Cybermen. Try again.
***** Try the Doctor Who Confidential of the relevent episodes, though I can't be too sure.
***** I've also read somewhere that Moffat has stated that they were Mondas Cybermen, but I can't remember where.
****** I heard him mention it at a preview screening Q&A for 'The Pandorica Opens', but that wasn't filmed or anything.


to:

*** ** Source please.
*** ** Really? On TV Tropes? Go look it up on the [[WikiRule Doctor Who wiki]]. They'll have a source there.
**** ** Nope, a quick look at the Doctor Who wiki mentions no such reference apart from a token reference of the discontinuity mentioned in the first bullet, AND they're referred to [[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberman_%28Pete%27s_World%29 here]], [[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Cybermen_%28Pete%27s_World%29_-_List_of_Appearances here]] and in hyperlinks [[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Alliance here]] as Cybus (or in their words "Pete's World") Cybermen. Try again.
***** ** Try the Doctor Who Confidential of the relevent episodes, though I can't be too sure.
***** ** I've also read somewhere that Moffat has stated that they were Mondas Cybermen, but I can't remember where.
****** ** I heard him mention it at a preview screening Q&A for 'The Pandorica Opens', but that wasn't filmed or anything.




*** But those were only his human allies. What about all the alien races the Doctor has befriended, or were they also used by the [[LegionOfDoom Legion of Jerks.]]
*** Well, we still don't know where the evil alliance got their information from. Either it was one of the evil races who figured it out (my money's on the Daleks, they are probably the most advanced), or whoever is actually behind this whole mess ("''Silence will fall''") tipped them off to use them as [[UnwittingPawn Unwitting Pawns]]. Either way, there was probably an intentional effort ''not'' to inform his allies. Imagine you hate the Doctor, and now have evidence that he is going to destroy the universe. You can't trap him on your own, you need allies. Who you gonna call? Not people who will defend or warn him, that's for sure. The Doctor's got plenty of enemies across the universe who'd be tickled pink to finally defeat him, especially if it saves their own hides in the process. No need to invite the good guys, they'll just muck things up.

to:

*** ** But those were only his human allies. What about all the alien races the Doctor has befriended, or were they also used by the [[LegionOfDoom Legion of Jerks.]]
*** ** Well, we still don't know where the evil alliance got their information from. Either it was one of the evil races who figured it out (my money's on the Daleks, they are probably the most advanced), or whoever is actually behind this whole mess ("''Silence will fall''") tipped them off to use them as [[UnwittingPawn Unwitting Pawns]]. Either way, there was probably an intentional effort ''not'' to inform his allies. Imagine you hate the Doctor, and now have evidence that he is going to destroy the universe. You can't trap him on your own, you need allies. Who you gonna call? Not people who will defend or warn him, that's for sure. The Doctor's got plenty of enemies across the universe who'd be tickled pink to finally defeat him, especially if it saves their own hides in the process. No need to invite the good guys, they'll just muck things up.



*** More than a match? He's plastic, immortal, and has a gun/hand device that never needs to be reloaded and he's mostly gonna be fighting the occasional loony human that gets too close to the box. And how did he know he needed young Amelia to open the box? For all he knew, he had to wait until 2106 before the box opened, yet it opened in 1996. (and that's a IJBM entry itself. How was that possible?)
*** I thought the Doctor told him that young Amelia's DNA had to open it. Also, are you confusing plastic for ''wax''?
*** And RE: 'it opened in 1996 not 2106' the Doctor was rounding up for emphasis when he said 'two thousand years'. That bit at least isn't that complicated.

to:

*** ** More than a match? He's plastic, immortal, and has a gun/hand device that never needs to be reloaded and he's mostly gonna be fighting the occasional loony human that gets too close to the box. And how did he know he needed young Amelia to open the box? For all he knew, he had to wait until 2106 before the box opened, yet it opened in 1996. (and that's a IJBM entry itself. How was that possible?)
*** ** I thought the Doctor told him that young Amelia's DNA had to open it. Also, are you confusing plastic for ''wax''?
*** ** And RE: 'it opened in 1996 not 2106' the Doctor was rounding up for emphasis when he said 'two thousand years'. That bit at least isn't that complicated.



*** [[LoveMakesYouCrazy Because he loved her]], [[AlmostDeadGuy because he felt guilty for almost killing her]], and because if there a even a small chance that something could go wrong, then he was going to make sure [[{{Determinator}} it had to go through him first.]] That is why he watched the Pandorica 24/7. I don't think there's any better reason than that.

to:

*** ** [[LoveMakesYouCrazy Because he loved her]], [[AlmostDeadGuy because he felt guilty for almost killing her]], and because if there a even a small chance that something could go wrong, then he was going to make sure [[{{Determinator}} it had to go through him first.]] That is why he watched the Pandorica 24/7. I don't think there's any better reason than that.



*** Considering that Rory was the one responsible for making it necessary to put Amy in the Pandorica for two millennia in the first place, I doubt his own conscience would be that kind to him. He's not just protecting Amy (although there is part of that in his motives), but [[TheAtoner atoning for his own actions]], and if that means standing guard over Amy for two millennia to make it right, then that's what he does. I imagine that according to Rory's logic (which is, let's face it, not entirely unreasonably given the circumstances), he doesn't ''get'' to have a normal life of his own until he can make sure that Amy's safe and what he did has been undone. And what if he does decide to leave the Pandorica and go and have a life, only to find that when he comes back to it someone ''has'' managed to break into it and harm Amy or bugger up all the plan? Yay, ''more'' guilt; I'm sure that's ''exactly'' what Rory wants or needs.
*** And all of you forgot a few things: this version of Rory is reborn from Amelia's mind, meaning that she has always seen him as loving, trustworty, flighty and ''LOYAL'' to her beyond reason. So he as an Auton would focus on these traits, knowing they were what defined him as HER Rory, and help him to continue "being human" through all that time.

to:

*** ** Considering that Rory was the one responsible for making it necessary to put Amy in the Pandorica for two millennia in the first place, I doubt his own conscience would be that kind to him. He's not just protecting Amy (although there is part of that in his motives), but [[TheAtoner atoning for his own actions]], and if that means standing guard over Amy for two millennia to make it right, then that's what he does. I imagine that according to Rory's logic (which is, let's face it, not entirely unreasonably given the circumstances), he doesn't ''get'' to have a normal life of his own until he can make sure that Amy's safe and what he did has been undone. And what if he does decide to leave the Pandorica and go and have a life, only to find that when he comes back to it someone ''has'' managed to break into it and harm Amy or bugger up all the plan? Yay, ''more'' guilt; I'm sure that's ''exactly'' what Rory wants or needs.
*** ** And all of you forgot a few things: this version of Rory is reborn from Amelia's mind, meaning that she has always seen him as loving, trustworty, flighty and ''LOYAL'' to her beyond reason. So he as an Auton would focus on these traits, knowing they were what defined him as HER Rory, and help him to continue "being human" through all that time.



*** [[FridgeBrilliance And this might even explain]] why he spent nearly 2000 years wearing the same Roman outfit, but has himself a nice security guard uniform at the museum. That centurion uniform was a part of him (except for the helmet, we saw him remove that), and couldn't be taken off. When he got his hands on more plastic and learned to work with it, he was able to not only repair any damage he had sustained over the years, but finally change his clothes (or at least give himself a normal enough body to wear ordinary clothes over it). And because he was damaged and permanently in Roman dress, that explains why he couldn't do something sensible like get himself an actual job guarding the Pandorica until recently.
*** ...I just got a hilarious mental image of Rory looking like a Ken Doll underneath that uniform. Might explain why he was so loyal to guarding Amy, it's not like he had much else to do on Saturday nights.
*** like half of the Just Bugs Me posts EVER, this one is pretty simple. The Doctor even says it himself: "Anyone can get inside a prison."

to:

*** ** [[FridgeBrilliance And this might even explain]] why he spent nearly 2000 years wearing the same Roman outfit, but has himself a nice security guard uniform at the museum. That centurion uniform was a part of him (except for the helmet, we saw him remove that), and couldn't be taken off. When he got his hands on more plastic and learned to work with it, he was able to not only repair any damage he had sustained over the years, but finally change his clothes (or at least give himself a normal enough body to wear ordinary clothes over it). And because he was damaged and permanently in Roman dress, that explains why he couldn't do something sensible like get himself an actual job guarding the Pandorica until recently.
*** ...** ...I just got a hilarious mental image of Rory looking like a Ken Doll underneath that uniform. Might explain why he was so loyal to guarding Amy, it's not like he had much else to do on Saturday nights.
*** ** like half of the Just Bugs Me posts EVER, this one is pretty simple. The Doctor even says it himself: "Anyone can get inside a prison."



*** Actually, no. ''All'' of the universe was erased from history (not just destroyed; it never existed).
*** Also, and this may just be me not remembering the episode clearly, but where was any of this explained in the episode?

to:

*** ** Actually, no. ''All'' of the universe was erased from history (not just destroyed; it never existed).
*** ** Also, and this may just be me not remembering the episode clearly, but where was any of this explained in the episode?



*** Possibly, but the mentioning of 'star cults' suggests that it's not just Amy who believes or mentions them; presumably Richard Dawkins at least also believes in them.
*** Could there be other people who somehow retain some memories, then?
*** Or maybe the people who used to travel with the Doctor remember snippets of him, so they believe in stars.
*** It's unliklely that it's ''just'' the people who have travelled with the Doctor who remember the stars. "Star Cults" sounds like more than just a few dozen people, and other than Amy the one specific example of someone who remembers stars is a person who has never met the Doctor onscreen (although if you want to get meta, RichardDawkins is married to a Time Lord).

to:

*** ** Possibly, but the mentioning of 'star cults' suggests that it's not just Amy who believes or mentions them; presumably Richard Dawkins at least also believes in them.
*** ** Could there be other people who somehow retain some memories, then?
*** ** Or maybe the people who used to travel with the Doctor remember snippets of him, so they believe in stars.
*** ** It's unliklely that it's ''just'' the people who have travelled with the Doctor who remember the stars. "Star Cults" sounds like more than just a few dozen people, and other than Amy the one specific example of someone who remembers stars is a person who has never met the Doctor onscreen (although if you want to get meta, RichardDawkins is married to a Time Lord).



*** Alternatively, The Silence was preventing the TARDIS from ringing the Doctor directly and so the TARDIS rerouted to River instead.

to:

*** ** Alternatively, The Silence was preventing the TARDIS from ringing the Doctor directly and so the TARDIS rerouted to River instead.



*** Also, during regeneration itself he becomes incredibly powerful. He accidentally trashed the TARDIS when he became 11. Imagine if he could figure out a way to focus his excess regeneration energy into trashing the Pandorica enough to make it open.

to:

*** ** Also, during regeneration itself he becomes incredibly powerful. He accidentally trashed the TARDIS when he became 11. Imagine if he could figure out a way to focus his excess regeneration energy into trashing the Pandorica enough to make it open.



*** Isn't the Nestene a single consciousness and the same Time War refugee?

to:

*** ** Isn't the Nestene a single consciousness and the same Time War refugee?



*** But an awesome pun for [[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stevedore a cargo container]].

to:

*** ** But an awesome pun for [[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stevedore a cargo container]].



*** So I suppose they just added the Romans for fun then, as well as setting it in Britain rather than Greece.
*** Umm, no? They took the Romans (and Rory) from Amy's room in 2010, just like the Pandora's Box legend.
*** And the Pandorica's already been there centuries, apparently, just waiting for the Doctor and co to show up; by the time of the setting of the story, it's already under Stonehenge, which is already ancient; the Doctor and co are just guided there in Roman times. As for the story moving from Britain to Greece, that's what myths do -- change and shift based on culture. Most ancient myths and stories are based on pre-existing oral traditions which someone eventually happened to write down -- and as with any lengthy oral traditions, the details get mangled. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that the story of the Pandorica was seeded as an oral tradition centuries beforehand, but when someone in Greece eventually heard this story about a mystical box which, when opened, unleashed horrors upon the universe and decided to write it down, they just relocated it to Greece and framed it in Greek religious practices and mythology instead, thus leading to the version we recognise. As for the Romans, the Romans weren't exactly shy about outright stealing Greek mythology, changing it around a bit and passing it off as their own either.

to:

*** ** So I suppose they just added the Romans for fun then, as well as setting it in Britain rather than Greece.
*** ** Umm, no? They took the Romans (and Rory) from Amy's room in 2010, just like the Pandora's Box legend.
*** ** And the Pandorica's already been there centuries, apparently, just waiting for the Doctor and co to show up; by the time of the setting of the story, it's already under Stonehenge, which is already ancient; the Doctor and co are just guided there in Roman times. As for the story moving from Britain to Greece, that's what myths do -- change and shift based on culture. Most ancient myths and stories are based on pre-existing oral traditions which someone eventually happened to write down -- and as with any lengthy oral traditions, the details get mangled. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that the story of the Pandorica was seeded as an oral tradition centuries beforehand, but when someone in Greece eventually heard this story about a mystical box which, when opened, unleashed horrors upon the universe and decided to write it down, they just relocated it to Greece and framed it in Greek religious practices and mythology instead, thus leading to the version we recognise. As for the Romans, the Romans weren't exactly shy about outright stealing Greek mythology, changing it around a bit and passing it off as their own either.



*** Not really. No one but the Doctor, the Alliance who has ceased to exist by the time Rory gets down there, and Rory once the Doctor tells him knows the Doctor is in there. If any of the former companions had any idea, they'd tell the Doctor. The Doctor doesn't even believe in it until he sees it. Not to mention that there is no guarantee that the other companions/allies still exist at all given how things are falling to pieces. The Doctor also didn't spend 2000 years doing ''anything.'' He went straight from Rory to the Amys in the museum in mid-sentence thus making it impossible to speculate that he did something in between. Also, the Doctor was able to start the Pandorica opening but didn't follow through with it because he had to deal with the Alliance. Anyway, why would the Alliance have made it so hard to open the Pandorica anyway? How it was supposed to work was that the Alliance themselves imprisoned the Doctor, the Doctor's one-or-two companions were killed by the Romans, and then they went off and fixed the problem. They just didn't count on Roman!Rory having real!Rory's soul and themselves being erased from existence. And really, if they hadn't never existed then Rory never would have gotten ''near'' the Pandorica.
*** Like the Troper above suggests, there's a reason there was a buttload of 'ghosts' of the various alien species that imprisoned the Doctor surrounding the Pandorica; at least some of them were probably intended as guards. You can get into a prison with a key, but you need to get past all the guards first -- in theory, anyway, since as mentioned above none of the guards were counting on being wiped from existence immediately after.

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*** ** Not really. No one but the Doctor, the Alliance who has ceased to exist by the time Rory gets down there, and Rory once the Doctor tells him knows the Doctor is in there. If any of the former companions had any idea, they'd tell the Doctor. The Doctor doesn't even believe in it until he sees it. Not to mention that there is no guarantee that the other companions/allies still exist at all given how things are falling to pieces. The Doctor also didn't spend 2000 years doing ''anything.'' He went straight from Rory to the Amys in the museum in mid-sentence thus making it impossible to speculate that he did something in between. Also, the Doctor was able to start the Pandorica opening but didn't follow through with it because he had to deal with the Alliance. Anyway, why would the Alliance have made it so hard to open the Pandorica anyway? How it was supposed to work was that the Alliance themselves imprisoned the Doctor, the Doctor's one-or-two companions were killed by the Romans, and then they went off and fixed the problem. They just didn't count on Roman!Rory having real!Rory's soul and themselves being erased from existence. And really, if they hadn't never existed then Rory never would have gotten ''near'' the Pandorica.
*** ** Like the Troper above suggests, there's a reason there was a buttload of 'ghosts' of the various alien species that imprisoned the Doctor surrounding the Pandorica; at least some of them were probably intended as guards. You can get into a prison with a key, but you need to get past all the guards first -- in theory, anyway, since as mentioned above none of the guards were counting on being wiped from existence immediately after.



*** The severed hand in "Journey's End" seemed pretty alive to me.

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*** ** The severed hand in "Journey's End" seemed pretty alive to me.



*** But the Daleks tried to destroy the TARDIS at the end of season four and yet even though the Doctor was convinced it had been destroyed, he was not surprised the universe hadn't blown up. Perhaps [=TARDISes=] can be safely destroyed and whatever made the TARDIS outright explode did it in such a way that it would destroy the universe. Chances are, if the Time Lords were still around the Doctor could have just taken the problem to them and it would be fixed within hours.
*** Apples and oranges. What the Daleks tried to destroy it with was a core consisting of the reality bomb's Z-Neutrino energy. I think it would have just unravelled the TARDIS to atoms and then nothingness rather than blow it up.
**** The point wasn't that the Daleks could blow it up safely, it was that the Daleks seemed to be able to destroy it safely. Even if they did use a reality bomb, it was still destroying it without destroying the entire universe. If there is one way to do that, there are probably others. The Time Lords must have had a way of decommissioning the TARDIS', after all.
**** My understanding was that it was matter of crack powering itself with all the (potentially) infinite mass, arton energy, all that stuff as well as the small singularity it would create, not just tardis boom=universe gone.

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*** ** But the Daleks tried to destroy the TARDIS at the end of season four and yet even though the Doctor was convinced it had been destroyed, he was not surprised the universe hadn't blown up. Perhaps [=TARDISes=] can be safely destroyed and whatever made the TARDIS outright explode did it in such a way that it would destroy the universe. Chances are, if the Time Lords were still around the Doctor could have just taken the problem to them and it would be fixed within hours.
*** ** Apples and oranges. What the Daleks tried to destroy it with was a core consisting of the reality bomb's Z-Neutrino energy. I think it would have just unravelled the TARDIS to atoms and then nothingness rather than blow it up.
**** ** The point wasn't that the Daleks could blow it up safely, it was that the Daleks seemed to be able to destroy it safely. Even if they did use a reality bomb, it was still destroying it without destroying the entire universe. If there is one way to do that, there are probably others. The Time Lords must have had a way of decommissioning the TARDIS', after all.
**** ** My understanding was that it was matter of crack powering itself with all the (potentially) infinite mass, arton energy, all that stuff as well as the small singularity it would create, not just tardis boom=universe gone.



*** Well if they never existed then they couldn't ascend anywhere, now could they?
**** Does it matter? They destroy the TARDIS safely, then destroy the universe, the universe is gone OR they don't destroy the TARDIS safely, it blows up the universe, the universe is gone. I don't think the Daleks would mind either way.
**** I'm sorry, but what definition of "safely" are you using here? I thought "safely blowing it up" meant WITHOUT causing a total event collapse.
**** Presumably the Ultimate Sanction uses a more refined time crack blast, but it wouldn't do anything because it would be stuck in the Time Lock.

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*** ** Well if they never existed then they couldn't ascend anywhere, now could they?
**** ** Does it matter? They destroy the TARDIS safely, then destroy the universe, the universe is gone OR they don't destroy the TARDIS safely, it blows up the universe, the universe is gone. I don't think the Daleks would mind either way.
**** ** I'm sorry, but what definition of "safely" are you using here? I thought "safely blowing it up" meant WITHOUT causing a total event collapse.
**** ** Presumably the Ultimate Sanction uses a more refined time crack blast, but it wouldn't do anything because it would be stuck in the Time Lock.



*** Plus, the Doctor's TARDIS was defective even before he stole it, and since then it's been through more abuse than any fifty other [=TARDISes=]. It's been to alternate realities, been reconfigured countless times, been hijacked even more, gotten refitted as a paradox device... it's amazing the old girl can still run ''at all'', let alone run safely.
*** And remember, the TARDIS could even still protect River ''after'' it blew up by placing the control room in a time loop. Maybe the only reason the explosion worked the way it did was because reality itself was heavily damaged by the cracks, before the explosion, since the universe ceased to exist after the explosion, but the damage was still there before.

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*** ** Plus, the Doctor's TARDIS was defective even before he stole it, and since then it's been through more abuse than any fifty other [=TARDISes=]. It's been to alternate realities, been reconfigured countless times, been hijacked even more, gotten refitted as a paradox device... it's amazing the old girl can still run ''at all'', let alone run safely.
*** ** And remember, the TARDIS could even still protect River ''after'' it blew up by placing the control room in a time loop. Maybe the only reason the explosion worked the way it did was because reality itself was heavily damaged by the cracks, before the explosion, since the universe ceased to exist after the explosion, but the damage was still there before.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Headscratchers.DoctorWhoSeries5