History Headscratchers / Discworld

18th May '16 4:09:30 AM Morgenthaler
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** He killed Cruces in defence of Vimes, really, and because he thought Cruces was too powerful to beat peacefully. He believes "personal isn't the same as important" and that sometimes means he makes very cold-blooded decisions: there's no suggestion that he feels good about doing so. Ankh-Morpork is a rough place - Vimes has also killed people in the execution of what he considers to be his duty, remember. I thought it was a case of KnightsTemplar more than anything.

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** He killed Cruces in defence of Vimes, really, and because he thought Cruces was too powerful to beat peacefully. He believes "personal isn't the same as important" and that sometimes means he makes very cold-blooded decisions: there's no suggestion that he feels good about doing so. Ankh-Morpork is a rough place - Vimes has also killed people in the execution of what he considers to be his duty, remember. I thought it was a case of KnightsTemplar KnightTemplar more than anything.
3rd Feb '16 11:20:44 AM Skebaba
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** Good luck trying to put a dagger into the back of someone who's good at hunting and shooting with crossbows and probably other hunting methods, and is also one of the rare wizards who is actually in a pretty good shape.
1st Feb '16 4:26:06 PM Lymantria
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--->What'll happen next? Vetinari won't mind. Vimes will throw out half of the charges at least, and the rest will become TICs and probably will not hugely affect the sentencing. The thieves will be glad to get out of it alive. Other thieves will be warned. By the rough and ready local standards, justice will have been served."

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--->What'll happen next? Vetinari won't mind. Vimes will throw out half of the charges at least, and the rest will become TICs UsefulNotes/TICs and probably will not hugely affect the sentencing. The thieves will be glad to get out of it alive. Other thieves will be warned. By the rough and ready local standards, justice will have been served."
19th Dec '15 11:02:52 AM Discar
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[[folderEskarina]]

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[[folderEskarina]]
[[folder:Eskarina]]
18th Dec '15 4:37:51 PM Discar
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New entries on the bottom.

[[foldercontrol]]

[[folderEskarina]]



*** That'll give a good sense of the series time frame :)
*** Contributing to the avoidance of Esk's situation might have been because it's clearly one of the 'early books' where the universe is being pinned down properly but still contains a lot of 'relevant' characters we see later. There's a lot of stuff we see there that either doesn't seem to appply to later books or seems to conflict with their mood, but the major worry was people assuming she isn't mentioned later because she and some others wizards were killed in ''Sourcery''.

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*** ** That'll give a good sense of the series time frame :)
*** ** Contributing to the avoidance of Esk's situation might have been because it's clearly one of the 'early books' where the universe is being pinned down properly but still contains a lot of 'relevant' characters we see later. There's a lot of stuff we see there that either doesn't seem to appply to later books or seems to conflict with their mood, but the major worry was people assuming she isn't mentioned later because she and some others wizards were killed in ''Sourcery''.



*** Are you kidding? UU's staff is so large and bloated that there are professors who haven't seen their feet in decades.
*** Zing!
*** UU's staff is so large and bloated you can hardly make out the knob on the end.
**** That would be [[{{Jerkass}} the ex-Dean]], then.

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*** ** Are you kidding? UU's staff is so large and bloated that there are professors who haven't seen their feet in decades.
*** ** Zing!
*** ** UU's staff is so large and bloated you can hardly make out the knob on the end.
**** ** That would be [[{{Jerkass}} the ex-Dean]], then.



*** It should be noted that the type of magic practiced by Ponder Stibbons (Hex, splitting the thaum, etc) is very reminiscent of the sort of magic Simon was describing in ''Equal Rites'' which raises the speculation that somewhere down the line Ponder Stibbons may have been taught by Simon, or Esk, or both.
**** Given the age gap between Stibbons and the rest of the faculty (not to mention the later sort-of-retcon that makes Ridcully and Granny Weatherwax roughly the same age), it's far more likely that he and Simon were peers. The epilogue to ''Discworld/EqualRites'' says that Simon became a master and teacher of these new magical theories, but it doesn't specify ''when''. He could be out in the field perfecting a different approach to Stibbons' right now.

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*** ** It should be noted that the type of magic practiced by Ponder Stibbons (Hex, splitting the thaum, etc) is very reminiscent of the sort of magic Simon was describing in ''Equal Rites'' which raises the speculation that somewhere down the line Ponder Stibbons may have been taught by Simon, or Esk, or both.
**** ** Given the age gap between Stibbons and the rest of the faculty (not to mention the later sort-of-retcon that makes Ridcully and Granny Weatherwax roughly the same age), it's far more likely that he and Simon were peers. The epilogue to ''Discworld/EqualRites'' says that Simon became a master and teacher of these new magical theories, but it doesn't specify ''when''. He could be out in the field perfecting a different approach to Stibbons' right now.
now.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Carrot's beard]]



*** I believe he's described as shaving at points. Every official ''picture'', however, has him clean shaven.
*** Yes, according to the timeline, he was 16. But it's been like five years since then.
*** Not need to refer to a fanmade Timeline, just open the novel ''Guards!Guards!'', it mentions Carrot is 16 when he arrives in Ankh-Morpork. In fact, on page 26 of the Paperback edition, in the scene when Carrot's adoptive father is sending him away, it says, ''"It's a terrible thing to be nearly sixteen and the wrong species."''
*** Maybe he can't grow one. Some men just don't grow facial hair.
*** Maybe he did try once, and the result was pretty darn sad. Not everyone can manage a proper dwarven beard after all, and a scraggy little one would just be embarrassing.
**** That's true, but it's a cultural thing. For a Dwarf, shaving your beard means that you're no longer a Dwarf. It'd be like being excommunicated.
***** This one's pretty easy. He's a watchman first, a dwarf second. (Now, anyway). And I bet in that big old Rules and Regulations of Ankh-Morpork there's something about shaving. Not that anybody pays attention to that anymore. But Carrot does...
****** Not necessarily - Carrot is a Dwarf, by his own explanation and by acceptance of other Dwarfs, and observes all Dwarfen traditions. Why he does not grow a beard when Dwarves are obviously exempt from such a ruling (as all Dwarves in the Watch are portrayed as beard wearing) has not been explained to account for this. Neither, for that matter, has it been explained why he doesn't have his own axe which is also a cultural requirement whether he also has a sword or not.
*** All the Dwarves in the watch have beards? Even Constable Cheery? Admittedly, there's precious little Kidby work of her that I've seen...
*** Yes. All dwarves wear beards, male and female. Even the ''baby'' dwarves have beards. That's part of the reason ''why'' nobody can tel the males from the females, including other dwarves.
*** Assuming there is a Hygiene rule, who says Dwarves are excempt? They probably just ignore/don't know about it. Since Carrot has what is probably the ONLY copy of the Rules and Regulations left, I'm voting for don't know. And to head off the question as to why Carrot wouldn't tell them--he's still a Dwarf, even if he is a Copper.

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*** ** I believe he's described as shaving at points. Every official ''picture'', however, has him clean shaven.
*** ** Yes, according to the timeline, he was 16. But it's been like five years since then.
*** ** Not need to refer to a fanmade Timeline, just open the novel ''Guards!Guards!'', it mentions Carrot is 16 when he arrives in Ankh-Morpork. In fact, on page 26 of the Paperback edition, in the scene when Carrot's adoptive father is sending him away, it says, ''"It's a terrible thing to be nearly sixteen and the wrong species."''
*** ** Maybe he can't grow one. Some men just don't grow facial hair.
*** ** Maybe he did try once, and the result was pretty darn sad. Not everyone can manage a proper dwarven beard after all, and a scraggy little one would just be embarrassing.
**** ** That's true, but it's a cultural thing. For a Dwarf, shaving your beard means that you're no longer a Dwarf. It'd be like being excommunicated.
***** ** This one's pretty easy. He's a watchman first, a dwarf second. (Now, anyway). And I bet in that big old Rules and Regulations of Ankh-Morpork there's something about shaving. Not that anybody pays attention to that anymore. But Carrot does...
****** ** Not necessarily - Carrot is a Dwarf, by his own explanation and by acceptance of other Dwarfs, and observes all Dwarfen traditions. Why he does not grow a beard when Dwarves are obviously exempt from such a ruling (as all Dwarves in the Watch are portrayed as beard wearing) has not been explained to account for this. Neither, for that matter, has it been explained why he doesn't have his own axe which is also a cultural requirement whether he also has a sword or not.
*** ** All the Dwarves in the watch have beards? Even Constable Cheery? Admittedly, there's precious little Kidby work of her that I've seen...
*** ** Yes. All dwarves wear beards, male and female. Even the ''baby'' dwarves have beards. That's part of the reason ''why'' nobody can tel the males from the females, including other dwarves.
*** ** Assuming there is a Hygiene rule, who says Dwarves are excempt? They probably just ignore/don't know about it. Since Carrot has what is probably the ONLY copy of the Rules and Regulations left, I'm voting for don't know. And to head off the question as to why Carrot wouldn't tell them--he's still a Dwarf, even if he is a Copper.



*** That's as good an explanation as any. And while Carrot is ''culturally'' a dwarf, the dwarves (and Carrot himself) also acknowledge that he is a human, and have no problem with him being both. Notice that the dwarves never demand that Carrot marry a dwarf, they're perfectly fine with him being with Angua. His step-father in fact ''insisted'' that Carrot go to the city and meet some human girls, because in his eyes teenage-Carrot's interest in Minty Rocksmacker was considered inappropriate due to the age difference.

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*** ** That's as good an explanation as any. And while Carrot is ''culturally'' a dwarf, the dwarves (and Carrot himself) also acknowledge that he is a human, and have no problem with him being both. Notice that the dwarves never demand that Carrot marry a dwarf, they're perfectly fine with him being with Angua. His step-father in fact ''insisted'' that Carrot go to the city and meet some human girls, because in his eyes teenage-Carrot's interest in Minty Rocksmacker was considered inappropriate due to the age difference.



*** For the record, even ''baby dwarfs'' have beards though, according to an illustration in Nanny Ogg's Cookbook. The (also bearded) child dwarf had chainmail mittens too. It was very cute.
**** And we trust Nanny Ogg to not have tilted the truth a little bit? If not a whole hell of a lot?
*** Nanny ''wrote'' the cookbook. She didn't ''illustrate'' it.
**** Thank the Gods for that

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*** ** For the record, even ''baby dwarfs'' have beards though, according to an illustration in Nanny Ogg's Cookbook. The (also bearded) child dwarf had chainmail mittens too. It was very cute.
**** ** And we trust Nanny Ogg to not have tilted the truth a little bit? If not a whole hell of a lot?
*** ** Nanny ''wrote'' the cookbook. She didn't ''illustrate'' it.
**** ** Thank the Gods for that



*** Maybe Angua asked him not to grow one. She wouldn't want to be reminded of her wolf ex-boyfriend, Gavin, when she's kissing Carrot, would she?

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*** ** Maybe Angua asked him not to grow one. She wouldn't want to be reminded of her wolf ex-boyfriend, Gavin, when she's kissing Carrot, would she?



*** Every single Official Illustration shows him cleanshaven.
**** Carrot is the sort of heroically innocent person who should be clean-shaven. His chin probably knows this.
***** Best explanation ''ever''.
****** Hey, the Discworld explicitly follows the Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality ...
**** The official Illustrations may not be the best guide. In Josh Kirby's cover art, Rincewind is always old and Twoflower was depicted with four literal eyes rather than glasses.
***** My only visual experience with the books is ''The Last Hero'', and I can vouch that Carrot was the only person on that vessel ''without'' a beard. (Assuming orangutans...)
***** Rincewind ''is'' old. Well, old-ish. Pratchett says he's supposed to be about 40, which is how old he looks in Kirby's paintings.
****** No, Josh Kirby always drew Rincewind as at least 60 with a long white beard. Paul Kidby draws Rincewind as about 40.
***** And in any case, I've never thought him to look old so much as really, really run-down and ragged.
**** Newer cover art, made by Paul Kidby, is the "official" looks, so his pictures of Carrot (and everyone else) are canon.
***** Casanunda famously doesn't have a beard. But then, he doesn't behave very dwarfishly.
***** The Kidby stuff is more accurate than the old covers by far, but not perfect as to how Pratchett imagine the characters. For example, in the ''Art of Discworld'' Rincewind is almost dead on according to Pratchett, but mentions Kidby and himself have differing opinions on Vimes. Though this editor throws his hat in with the Narrative thing. No "prince", even hidden unless a hermit, has facial hair. Facial hair is for kings. Carrot hasn't been crowned yet.
***** Guys, it's ''Kidby'', ''Paul Kidby''. Jack ''Kirby'' illustrated all the ''old'' Discworld cover, and Paul ''Kidby'' replaced him as the official artist after his death.
*** You mean ''Josh'' Kirby. ''Jack'' Kirby is the guy who drew Darkseid et al.
*** Pratchett himself mentions in ''The Art of Discworld'' and ''The Pratchett Portfolio'' how spot-on he thinks Kidby captures the characters. Not to mention that the official ''[[TabletopGame/DiscworldRolePlayingGame GURPS Discworld]]'' roleplaying game, which was co-authored by Pratchett, uses the Kidby drawings.

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*** ** Every single Official Illustration shows him cleanshaven.
**** ** Carrot is the sort of heroically innocent person who should be clean-shaven. His chin probably knows this.
***** ** Best explanation ''ever''.
****** ** Hey, the Discworld explicitly follows the Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality ...
**** ** The official Illustrations may not be the best guide. In Josh Kirby's cover art, Rincewind is always old and Twoflower was depicted with four literal eyes rather than glasses.
***** ** My only visual experience with the books is ''The Last Hero'', and I can vouch that Carrot was the only person on that vessel ''without'' a beard. (Assuming orangutans...)
***** ** Rincewind ''is'' old. Well, old-ish. Pratchett says he's supposed to be about 40, which is how old he looks in Kirby's paintings.
****** ** No, Josh Kirby always drew Rincewind as at least 60 with a long white beard. Paul Kidby draws Rincewind as about 40.
***** ** And in any case, I've never thought him to look old so much as really, really run-down and ragged.
**** ** Newer cover art, made by Paul Kidby, is the "official" looks, so his pictures of Carrot (and everyone else) are canon.
***** ** Casanunda famously doesn't have a beard. But then, he doesn't behave very dwarfishly.
***** ** The Kidby stuff is more accurate than the old covers by far, but not perfect as to how Pratchett imagine the characters. For example, in the ''Art of Discworld'' Rincewind is almost dead on according to Pratchett, but mentions Kidby and himself have differing opinions on Vimes. Though this editor throws his hat in with the Narrative thing. No "prince", even hidden unless a hermit, has facial hair. Facial hair is for kings. Carrot hasn't been crowned yet.
***** ** Guys, it's ''Kidby'', ''Paul Kidby''. Jack ''Kirby'' illustrated all the ''old'' Discworld cover, and Paul ''Kidby'' replaced him as the official artist after his death.
*** ** You mean ''Josh'' Kirby. ''Jack'' Kirby is the guy who drew Darkseid et al.
*** ** Pratchett himself mentions in ''The Art of Discworld'' and ''The Pratchett Portfolio'' how spot-on he thinks Kidby captures the characters. Not to mention that the official ''[[TabletopGame/DiscworldRolePlayingGame GURPS Discworld]]'' roleplaying game, which was co-authored by Pratchett, uses the Kidby drawings.



*** I assumed that his father thought his hair was a hygeine issue because dwarves do not grow hair on the top of their head, whereas Carrot obviously does.
**** Dwarfs ''do'' grow hair on their scalp. Cpl. Littlebottom is quite definitely shown with a full head of hair in the official art, and Hwel the playwright makes reference to his hair. The former or the latter could be taken as a wig or a metaphor, but both together seem a bit of a coincidence.
**** His dwarven name means 'head-banger' and they lived underground, it's easier to clean dirt out of short hair especially if it goes curly when it's long like a lot of redheads.

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*** ** I assumed that his father thought his hair was a hygeine issue because dwarves do not grow hair on the top of their head, whereas Carrot obviously does.
**** ** Dwarfs ''do'' grow hair on their scalp. Cpl. Littlebottom is quite definitely shown with a full head of hair in the official art, and Hwel the playwright makes reference to his hair. The former or the latter could be taken as a wig or a metaphor, but both together seem a bit of a coincidence.
**** ** His dwarven name means 'head-banger' and they lived underground, it's easier to clean dirt out of short hair especially if it goes curly when it's long like a lot of redheads.



*** This is the most likely reason, since I believe I remember reading somewhere that he used the reflective surface of his breastplate to shave. Plus, in Fifth Elephant, Prachett specifically states that he grew stubble.
*** Vimes... makes a point of being clean-shaven?
**** Hmm, sober!Vimes at least makes a point of shaving, although I forget whether he is clean shaven - hell, his particular brand of shaving/anti-assassination mirror has been described at least a couple of times, as well as his refusal to allow his butler to shave him, as he believed it split the world into those who shave and those who are shaved...
***** Also, even though it's [[BattleButler Wilikins]], Mister Vimes STILL can't trust another man holding a razor to his throat; old habits die hard.

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*** ** This is the most likely reason, since I believe I remember reading somewhere that he used the reflective surface of his breastplate to shave. Plus, in Fifth Elephant, Prachett specifically states that he grew stubble.
*** ** Vimes... makes a point of being clean-shaven?
**** ** Hmm, sober!Vimes at least makes a point of shaving, although I forget whether he is clean shaven - hell, his particular brand of shaving/anti-assassination mirror has been described at least a couple of times, as well as his refusal to allow his butler to shave him, as he believed it split the world into those who shave and those who are shaved...
***** ** Also, even though it's [[BattleButler Wilikins]], Mister Vimes STILL can't trust another man holding a razor to his throat; old habits die hard.



*** His beard is in Chuck Norris's face.

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*** ** His beard is in Chuck Norris's face.



*** Going through the explanations it appears that there is a lot of well-reasoned ... [[DepartmentofRedundancyDepartment reasoning]]. However, this one is best. And should ''definitely'' be canon.
**** It's like having an axe... without the axe

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*** ** Going through the explanations it appears that there is a lot of well-reasoned ... [[DepartmentofRedundancyDepartment reasoning]]. However, this one is best. And should ''definitely'' be canon.
**** ** It's like having an axe... without the axe



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Seasons]]



*** "It's probably the only place in the Multiverse where every once in awhile an elephant has to cock its leg to let the sun go by."
*** Which doesn't explain why, in ''Hogfather'', Ponder reminds Ridcully that Hogswatch (midwinter) is the shortest night of the year. On a flat world, all days should be the same length, regardless of season or what route the sun travels across the sky.

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*** ** "It's probably the only place in the Multiverse where every once in awhile an elephant has to cock its leg to let the sun go by."
*** ** Which doesn't explain why, in ''Hogfather'', Ponder reminds Ridcully that Hogswatch (midwinter) is the shortest night of the year. On a flat world, all days should be the same length, regardless of season or what route the sun travels across the sky.



*** [[FridgeBrilliance The Turtle is much, much more massive than anything on the Disc and the center of gravity is therefore within Great A'Tuin. The water falls off the Disc and becomes part of the atmosphere. Eventually, air currents will circulate it back above the Disc where it will fall as rain.]]
**** Perhaps the sun speeds up at that season for whatever reason?

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*** ** [[FridgeBrilliance The Turtle is much, much more massive than anything on the Disc and the center of gravity is therefore within Great A'Tuin. The water falls off the Disc and becomes part of the atmosphere. Eventually, air currents will circulate it back above the Disc where it will fall as rain.]]
**** ** Perhaps the sun speeds up at that season for whatever reason?



*** So? Their humans probably age slower than our humans. It's an alternate universe, the physiology doesn't have to be exactly the same.
*** In one book, can't recall which, maybe the Guide, Pratchett states that most people think of a year as about half the real year, because that's the year that affects most people.
*** Yep, it's the"agricultural year" that nearly everyone counts off years by. Only astrologers and pedantic show-offs give a damn whether the sun rises from Hubwards or Rimwards.
*** I go with the idea mentioned above that Discworld humans age slower - a Discworld person who has lived for 10 Discworld agricultural years is at the same stage of development as an Earth person who has lived for 10 Earth years. This ties in with the idea that the Discworld runs on narrativium - someone who is 10 years old is still a child, because everyone ''knows'' that's what 10-year-olds are like.
*** Or maybe the History Monk whose pulse they based their timing on was a little bit excited/stressed by the crisis, so his heart rate was slightly faster than expected. Shorter seconds add up to shorter days, meaning 400 days on Discworld could (and probably would, given narrative causality) precisely equal 365 Roundworld days.

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*** ** So? Their humans probably age slower than our humans. It's an alternate universe, the physiology doesn't have to be exactly the same.
*** ** In one book, can't recall which, maybe the Guide, Pratchett states that most people think of a year as about half the real year, because that's the year that affects most people.
*** ** Yep, it's the"agricultural year" that nearly everyone counts off years by. Only astrologers and pedantic show-offs give a damn whether the sun rises from Hubwards or Rimwards.
*** ** I go with the idea mentioned above that Discworld humans age slower - a Discworld person who has lived for 10 Discworld agricultural years is at the same stage of development as an Earth person who has lived for 10 Earth years. This ties in with the idea that the Discworld runs on narrativium - someone who is 10 years old is still a child, because everyone ''knows'' that's what 10-year-olds are like.
*** ** Or maybe the History Monk whose pulse they based their timing on was a little bit excited/stressed by the crisis, so his heart rate was slightly faster than expected. Shorter seconds add up to shorter days, meaning 400 days on Discworld could (and probably would, given narrative causality) precisely equal 365 Roundworld days.
days.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Soul Music ret-goned]]



*** Given that the plot threads for Mr. Clete and Noddy's band both wrap up ''after'' Death snaps his fingers and revises history, it would seem to be canon that he didn't erase ''everything'', just the minimum necessary for Imp to survive.

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*** ** Given that the plot threads for Mr. Clete and Noddy's band both wrap up ''after'' Death snaps his fingers and revises history, it would seem to be canon that he didn't erase ''everything'', just the minimum necessary for Imp to survive.



*** Seconded and carried.

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*** ** Seconded and carried.
carried.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Gravity]]



*** No, quantum.

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*** ** No, quantum.



*** Because in order to create gravity, an object needs to spin, and spin very fast. That's why the Earth, moon, Sun, everything--in our solar system bound by physics and such anyway--has gravity. (And yes, the Sun rotates on an axis just like everything else.) That's even how Earth's keeping its atmosphere. However, Discworld's not spinning on anything. It's basically a plate. Usually Pratchett pays attention to little details like this. Why does Discworld have gravity?! For that matter, how does its atmosphere stay put?
**** YouFailPhysicsForever. All you need to have gravity is mass. Though to have enough gravity to be noticeable you need a hell of a lot of mass. Pretty sure a 10,000 mile across disc made of rock would suffice.
**** This is just plain untrue by all knowledge of real-world physics.
**** Yeah, seriously...that's not even remotely close to the truth. You must have really failed physics.
***** Also, spinning doesn't suck things ''in'', it flings them ''out''... think about holding a weight on a string, and spinning it around your head. The faster you spin it, the harder it pulls away from your hand. This is because it's trying to continue in the same direction it was going (the direction it is always trying to go is perpendicular to the string... try letting go of it and pay attention to the direction it goes), but the string pulls it back towards your hand. That's how the centrifugal thing works. It has nothing to do with gravity... but you could use it to create the ''illusion'' of gravity by spinning a cylinder very fast. Stuff would be pulled towards the outside of the cylinder, and to people walking along the inside of the cylinder it would presumably feel like gravity, since all it is is forces anyway.
**** Note that gravity does not work like ours anyway. In ''Colour of Magic'', Tethis, Twoflower and Rincewing have all fallen off the world. Presumably Gravity just goes "down", and Great A'Tuin is supported somehow. Presumably [[AWizardDidIt a god did it]].
***** Why the hell are you complaining about this anyway? Next you're going to complain about the giant turtle with the four elephants on its back.
****** What was the title of this category again? Oh, wait.
******* Gravity is caused by mass. Everything has gravity, things with more mass have ''more'' gravity. I don't know why you are talking about spinning... Isn't there a science fiction thing where things in space spin to create artificial gravity...? I don't know if that would actually work. As for Discgravity perhaps A'Tuin weighs more than the Disk so things that fall of it fall onto her... or him.
******** It does indeed work, via centrifugal force (yes this is the actual correct term although both centrifugal and centripetal forces are semi-fictitious...trust me, you didn't want to get my physics teacher started). Plus, not only is the great A'Tuin absolutely huge and capable of creating her own gravity, but the entire disc is MAGIC!!! I mean, why argue about how gravity can exist when the speed of light can sometimes be outpaced by sound?
******** The rotating thing works via centripetal... something something force. Essentially, it's like running on a barrel. Well, it's not, but it's [[LiesToChildren a nice lie]].
******** More specifically, the "artificial gravity" idea is that by spinning a large object, things ''inside'' the object end up plastered to its surface... an effect you can easily see exploited in many amusement parks. The idea isn't to create gravity, it's to create an effect which allows people to behave as if there was gravity (what gravity the object is actually producing is mostly working ''against'' this effect). When this idea comes up, it tends to get confused with gravity, leading to people thinking there's a connection between spinning and gravity generation. And yes, centripetal rather than centrifugal force is involved, simply because centrifugal force is only a delusion. In the space station example above, there's no force pushing you against the hull - your inertia is trying to send you through the hull in the direction you were travelling, and the hull is exerting a centripetal force ''keeping you in''. (Of course, from a sufficiently "hard" perspective ''gravitational'' forces are also just delusions caused by our extremely warped perception of spacetime, but that one's taking us well outside the original question, so...)
********* Centrifugal force is not [[http://xkcd.com/123/ just a delusion]].
********* A basic tenet of relativity is that ''all'' forms of acceleration are indistinguishable from each other within its own frame of reference. Whether it is gravitational, centrifugal/centripetal, or just plain from force applied by an engine in one direction, it all feels and acts exactly the same. When fighter pilots talk about G-forces it is because their aircraft are accelerating, not because they are suddenly generating additional gravity. Artificial gravity from spinning a spaceship works because within the reference frame of the interior of the ship, you can't tell the difference between centripetal and gravitational force. But spinning isn't the only way to generate artifical gravity, simply accelerating your spaceship continuously in one direction will also do the same thing.
********* However, the ''strength'' of gravity depends on how far away you are from the massive objects center of mass. For a spherical world all points on the surface are more or less the same distance from center of mass, within generally insignificant variances. But on discworld, the different points along the surface of the disc would be at different distances from the center of mass (presumably somewhere on the top of the turtles shell. . . .) and so should experience different amounts of gravity. This does not appear to actually be the case, but that's what the magic is for.
******* Oh and as for what A'Tuin is standing on. Don't you know it's turtles all the way down?
******** A'Tuin doesn't stand on anything. It swims through space. The magic part is that swimming is impossible in vacuum since there is no medium to push against.
********* To paraphrase Om in ''Small Gods,'' "What do you mean, what's it stand on? It's a ''turtle,'' it ''swims,'' that's ''what turtles are for''!"
********* In ''Pyramids'' Pratchett identifies Great A'Tuin as the only turtle ever to feature on the Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram, so it must have the mass of a small star at least. Gravity shouldn't be a huge issue here.
********** The Hertzsprung Russel Diagram is a measure of solar luminosity and spectrum, not mass, thus this statement is either a gross display of ignorance, or it's a throw-away line. I'm leaning towards the latter.
********** That, or it's a really shiny turtle.
********** Or a very hot one. The HR diagram graphs luminosity against temperature (the spectral classes are produced/defined from the diagram, not the other way around). Technically everything, including planets, asteroids, rocks, humans, and real turtles, can be put on it. (They'd just all bunch up in the bottom right corner).

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*** ** Because in order to create gravity, an object needs to spin, and spin very fast. That's why the Earth, moon, Sun, everything--in our solar system bound by physics and such anyway--has gravity. (And yes, the Sun rotates on an axis just like everything else.) That's even how Earth's keeping its atmosphere. However, Discworld's not spinning on anything. It's basically a plate. Usually Pratchett pays attention to little details like this. Why does Discworld have gravity?! For that matter, how does its atmosphere stay put?
**** YouFailPhysicsForever. ** All you need to have gravity is mass. Though to have enough gravity to be noticeable you need a hell of a lot of mass. Pretty sure a 10,000 mile across disc made of rock would suffice.
**** ** This is just plain untrue by all knowledge of real-world physics.
**** ** Yeah, seriously...that's not even remotely close to the truth. You must have really failed physics.
***** ** Also, spinning doesn't suck things ''in'', it flings them ''out''... think about holding a weight on a string, and spinning it around your head. The faster you spin it, the harder it pulls away from your hand. This is because it's trying to continue in the same direction it was going (the direction it is always trying to go is perpendicular to the string... try letting go of it and pay attention to the direction it goes), but the string pulls it back towards your hand. That's how the centrifugal thing works. It has nothing to do with gravity... but you could use it to create the ''illusion'' of gravity by spinning a cylinder very fast. Stuff would be pulled towards the outside of the cylinder, and to people walking along the inside of the cylinder it would presumably feel like gravity, since all it is is forces anyway.
**** ** Note that gravity does not work like ours anyway. In ''Colour of Magic'', Tethis, Twoflower and Rincewing have all fallen off the world. Presumably Gravity just goes "down", and Great A'Tuin is supported somehow. Presumably [[AWizardDidIt a god did it]].
***** ** Why the hell are you complaining about this anyway? Next you're going to complain about the giant turtle with the four elephants on its back.
****** ** What was the title of this category again? Oh, wait.
******* ** Gravity is caused by mass. Everything has gravity, things with more mass have ''more'' gravity. I don't know why you are talking about spinning... Isn't there a science fiction thing where things in space spin to create artificial gravity...? I don't know if that would actually work. As for Discgravity perhaps A'Tuin weighs more than the Disk so things that fall of it fall onto her... or him.
******** ** It does indeed work, via centrifugal force (yes this is the actual correct term although both centrifugal and centripetal forces are semi-fictitious...trust me, you didn't want to get my physics teacher started). Plus, not only is the great A'Tuin absolutely huge and capable of creating her own gravity, but the entire disc is MAGIC!!! I mean, why argue about how gravity can exist when the speed of light can sometimes be outpaced by sound?
******** ** The rotating thing works via centripetal... something something force. Essentially, it's like running on a barrel. Well, it's not, but it's [[LiesToChildren a nice lie]].
******** ** More specifically, the "artificial gravity" idea is that by spinning a large object, things ''inside'' the object end up plastered to its surface... an effect you can easily see exploited in many amusement parks. The idea isn't to create gravity, it's to create an effect which allows people to behave as if there was gravity (what gravity the object is actually producing is mostly working ''against'' this effect). When this idea comes up, it tends to get confused with gravity, leading to people thinking there's a connection between spinning and gravity generation. And yes, centripetal rather than centrifugal force is involved, simply because centrifugal force is only a delusion. In the space station example above, there's no force pushing you against the hull - your inertia is trying to send you through the hull in the direction you were travelling, and the hull is exerting a centripetal force ''keeping you in''. (Of course, from a sufficiently "hard" perspective ''gravitational'' forces are also just delusions caused by our extremely warped perception of spacetime, but that one's taking us well outside the original question, so...)
********* ** Centrifugal force is not [[http://xkcd.com/123/ just a delusion]].
********* ** A basic tenet of relativity is that ''all'' forms of acceleration are indistinguishable from each other within its own frame of reference. Whether it is gravitational, centrifugal/centripetal, or just plain from force applied by an engine in one direction, it all feels and acts exactly the same. When fighter pilots talk about G-forces it is because their aircraft are accelerating, not because they are suddenly generating additional gravity. Artificial gravity from spinning a spaceship works because within the reference frame of the interior of the ship, you can't tell the difference between centripetal and gravitational force. But spinning isn't the only way to generate artifical gravity, simply accelerating your spaceship continuously in one direction will also do the same thing.
********* ** However, the ''strength'' of gravity depends on how far away you are from the massive objects center of mass. For a spherical world all points on the surface are more or less the same distance from center of mass, within generally insignificant variances. But on discworld, the different points along the surface of the disc would be at different distances from the center of mass (presumably somewhere on the top of the turtles shell. . . .) and so should experience different amounts of gravity. This does not appear to actually be the case, but that's what the magic is for.
******* ** Oh and as for what A'Tuin is standing on. Don't you know it's turtles all the way down?
******** ** A'Tuin doesn't stand on anything. It swims through space. The magic part is that swimming is impossible in vacuum since there is no medium to push against.
********* ** To paraphrase Om in ''Small Gods,'' "What do you mean, what's it stand on? It's a ''turtle,'' it ''swims,'' that's ''what turtles are for''!"
********* ** In ''Pyramids'' Pratchett identifies Great A'Tuin as the only turtle ever to feature on the Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram, so it must have the mass of a small star at least. Gravity shouldn't be a huge issue here.
********** ** The Hertzsprung Russel Diagram is a measure of solar luminosity and spectrum, not mass, thus this statement is either a gross display of ignorance, or it's a throw-away line. I'm leaning towards the latter.
********** ** That, or it's a really shiny turtle.
********** ** Or a very hot one. The HR diagram graphs luminosity against temperature (the spectral classes are produced/defined from the diagram, not the other way around). Technically everything, including planets, asteroids, rocks, humans, and real turtles, can be put on it. (They'd just all bunch up in the bottom right corner).



*** Has it ever said in canon how big around the Great A'Tuin is? If all we have in the way of measurements are drawings, by Paul Kidby and especially Josh Kirby, as well as the assumption that it is theoretically possible to get somewhere close to the edge of the shell in a space capsule launched from Krull, then it ''could'' be that the Great A'Tuin is a great enough distance across with enough of a uniform body thickness that the gravity remains perpendicular to the disc despite the elephants. The movement of its limbs as it swims through space could even be the cause of the sun's irregular orbit. (Then again, [[AWizardDidIt magic]]. The gravity pulling towards the center of the disc could have been moved from the edges of the disc to the sides of Cori Celeste as shown but not explained in The Last Hero, considering how physics works for the Discworld.)
**** Equal Rites mentions it as being "a turtle, ten thousand miles long." That was early days though, it might be different now.

to:

*** ** Has it ever said in canon how big around the Great A'Tuin is? If all we have in the way of measurements are drawings, by Paul Kidby and especially Josh Kirby, as well as the assumption that it is theoretically possible to get somewhere close to the edge of the shell in a space capsule launched from Krull, then it ''could'' be that the Great A'Tuin is a great enough distance across with enough of a uniform body thickness that the gravity remains perpendicular to the disc despite the elephants. The movement of its limbs as it swims through space could even be the cause of the sun's irregular orbit. (Then again, [[AWizardDidIt magic]]. The gravity pulling towards the center of the disc could have been moved from the edges of the disc to the sides of Cori Celeste as shown but not explained in The Last Hero, considering how physics works for the Discworld.)
**** ** Equal Rites mentions it as being "a turtle, ten thousand miles long." That was early days though, it might be different now.



* Just for fun, let's say that A'tuin is the centre of gravity; near the Rim you'd feel like you were being "pulled" in a diagonally downward direction hubwards. It'd make the surface of the disc feel like a big shallow bowl

to:

* ** Just for fun, let's say that A'tuin is the centre of gravity; near the Rim you'd feel like you were being "pulled" in a diagonally downward direction hubwards. It'd make the surface of the disc feel like a big shallow bowlbowl.



*** [[Franchise/MenInBlack 'A thousand years ago we thought the world was a bowl. Five hundred years ago we knew it was a globe.]] [[Discworld/TheTruth Today we know it is flat and round and carried through space on the back of a turtle.' He turned and gave the High Priest another smile. 'Don't you wonder what shape it will turn out to be tomorrow?']]
* The answer to all of the above questions about physics and ever emptying oceans is this. '''Because that is how it is supposed to go.''' Belief is a very powerful force on the Discworld, physics has no chance at all. Things go down because falling is what things do. There is air because worlds have air. The seas don't run dry because seas are full of water, OK?
* I agree. Everyone knows that things fall downwards. Therefore, if you fall off the edge of the world, it makes no sense at all that you should actually fall back towards the world. Even though that's what actually makes sense. This is a world where Death, who is essentially ''made'' of people's belief, has several times changed the course of history. Why couldn't belief change the course of a falling object?

to:

*** ** [[Franchise/MenInBlack 'A thousand years ago we thought the world was a bowl. Five hundred years ago we knew it was a globe.]] [[Discworld/TheTruth Today we know it is flat and round and carried through space on the back of a turtle.' He turned and gave the High Priest another smile. 'Don't you wonder what shape it will turn out to be tomorrow?']]
* ** The answer to all of the above questions about physics and ever emptying oceans is this. '''Because that is how it is supposed to go.''' Belief is a very powerful force on the Discworld, physics has no chance at all. Things go down because falling is what things do. There is air because worlds have air. The seas don't run dry because seas are full of water, OK?
* ** I agree. Everyone knows that things fall downwards. Therefore, if you fall off the edge of the world, it makes no sense at all that you should actually fall back towards the world. Even though that's what actually makes sense. This is a world where Death, who is essentially ''made'' of people's belief, has several times changed the course of history. Why couldn't belief change the course of a falling object?



*** But it has also been pointed that Binky is sole exception to the real life rule that all the "white" horses are actually (very light) gray.
**** But he's not the colour of snow. He's the colour of milk - which is alive.
**** Which is kind of weird, since the original 'pale' was drawn from the Greek khlôros, which meant "pale green", "ashen" or "yellow-green". Although, in fairness, we do get to see at one point that Death has had other rides before Binky. They just didn't work out.
*** Actually, there ''are'' horses who are considered pure white. Check the skin under the hair - if it's pink, the horse is white. If the skin is darker, it is gray. Although my first riding teacher has been wrong before.
*** Horsie genetics time. Grey horses carry a mutation that makes the hair turn white with age (they're born whatever normal colour their genetics carry, and may end up white as young as 3 or 4, or as old as 20); like aging humans, their skin, eyes, hooves etc don't lighten. There are also various dilution mutations that alter the expression of pigments: homozygous cream, and individuals carrying both cream and champagne, can end up very pale indeed. These horses can be called white (although cream, cremello and pearlino are also used) and have blue eyes, white or whitish hair, and pink skin and hooves. Finally, there are the various white-pattern markings, which can occasionally produce an animal with white everywhere. The skin under white markings is pink, and the eyes can be blue or dark depending on which mutation is in effect. The no white horses thing exists because the latter two categories (sport colours and extensive white markings) were very unfashionable in England, to the extent that they were culled from many breeds. So the only white-looking horses were greys that had fully greyed out (ie had no coloured hairs remaining).

to:

*** ** But it has also been pointed that Binky is sole exception to the real life rule that all the "white" horses are actually (very light) gray.
**** ** But he's not the colour of snow. He's the colour of milk - which is alive.
**** ** Which is kind of weird, since the original 'pale' was drawn from the Greek khlôros, which meant "pale green", "ashen" or "yellow-green". Although, in fairness, we do get to see at one point that Death has had other rides before Binky. They just didn't work out.
*** ** Actually, there ''are'' horses who are considered pure white. Check the skin under the hair - if it's pink, the horse is white. If the skin is darker, it is gray. Although my first riding teacher has been wrong before.
*** ** Horsie genetics time. Grey horses carry a mutation that makes the hair turn white with age (they're born whatever normal colour their genetics carry, and may end up white as young as 3 or 4, or as old as 20); like aging humans, their skin, eyes, hooves etc don't lighten. There are also various dilution mutations that alter the expression of pigments: homozygous cream, and individuals carrying both cream and champagne, can end up very pale indeed. These horses can be called white (although cream, cremello and pearlino are also used) and have blue eyes, white or whitish hair, and pink skin and hooves. Finally, there are the various white-pattern markings, which can occasionally produce an animal with white everywhere. The skin under white markings is pink, and the eyes can be blue or dark depending on which mutation is in effect. The no white horses thing exists because the latter two categories (sport colours and extensive white markings) were very unfashionable in England, to the extent that they were culled from many breeds. So the only white-looking horses were greys that had fully greyed out (ie had no coloured hairs remaining).



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Sues]]



*** I get the feeling that the Patrician is a genius, and as he says in ''Jingo'': "After ruling over Ankh-Morpork, everything else is ''easy'' in comparison".
*** I was so relieved when Granny got put into the mentor role, because she really had become too powerful to have her own plots and I was terrified that Creator/TerryPratchett was going to have to kill her off. There's a interview from around then talking about when it's necessary to kill off characters and talking about Granny having become hard to plot for.
*** Well, the Patrician doesn't take credit within the story, but the reader is certainly meant to give him much of the credit. As for Granny, while she does struggle a lot, that's often due to her self-imposed rule of using magic as little as possible (and at one point even cutting her hand after using magic to block a sword). In many of the Witches books it's implied Granny ''could'' take care of most of the antagonists easily if she didn't restrict herself (the Elves being an exception).
**** She didn't use magic to block the sword and then cut her hand. She just delayed the injury until a more appropriate time.
*** I actually found Vetinari ''less'' tolerable in ''Jingo''. Besides, as seen in ''The Truth'', he can be vulnerable to random events. I seriously doubt he planned out everything that happened in ''The Truth'', which would have led to him, you know, being deposed. If the son of one of the conspirators hadn't just been doing random things.
**** Random? I don't know if my memory is playing tricks on me, but Vetinari was all over William De Worde like a rash for most of the story. I'd be quite prepared to argue that if William had at any point required a little, how shall we say, 'steering', Vetinari would have done so, using his interest in the ''Ankh-Morpork Times'' as a very useful cover.

to:

*** ** I get the feeling that the Patrician is a genius, and as he says in ''Jingo'': "After ruling over Ankh-Morpork, everything else is ''easy'' in comparison".
*** ** I was so relieved when Granny got put into the mentor role, because she really had become too powerful to have her own plots and I was terrified that Creator/TerryPratchett was going to have to kill her off. There's a interview from around then talking about when it's necessary to kill off characters and talking about Granny having become hard to plot for.
*** ** Well, the Patrician doesn't take credit within the story, but the reader is certainly meant to give him much of the credit. As for Granny, while she does struggle a lot, that's often due to her self-imposed rule of using magic as little as possible (and at one point even cutting her hand after using magic to block a sword). In many of the Witches books it's implied Granny ''could'' take care of most of the antagonists easily if she didn't restrict herself (the Elves being an exception).
**** ** She didn't use magic to block the sword and then cut her hand. She just delayed the injury until a more appropriate time.
*** ** I actually found Vetinari ''less'' tolerable in ''Jingo''. Besides, as seen in ''The Truth'', he can be vulnerable to random events. I seriously doubt he planned out everything that happened in ''The Truth'', which would have led to him, you know, being deposed. If the son of one of the conspirators hadn't just been doing random things.
**** ** Random? I don't know if my memory is playing tricks on me, but Vetinari was all over William De Worde like a rash for most of the story. I'd be quite prepared to argue that if William had at any point required a little, how shall we say, 'steering', Vetinari would have done so, using his interest in the ''Ankh-Morpork Times'' as a very useful cover.



*** This is true, as the City Watch are often falling over in several different directions. I think Vetinari makes his plans flexible enough to accommodate unpredictable outcomes. So he must think of a lot of possible outcomes, and guide events in the direction he wants, narrowing them down as time goes by. Even if it's partly an illusion, it benefits him to make people think he knew it was always going to happen that way, and he knows what they're doing now.
*** It's actually explicitly stated, at one point- Vetinari ponders to himself that only an incompetent leader needs to plan, while a competent one, such as himself, merely ''steers''. Vetinari is simply aware that most people hold the opposite conviction, and so takes care to present the whole thing (and quite possibly everything, ever) as one huge GambitRoulette, when in fact it is an all-encompassing IndyPloy as conducted by a man of genius and, more importantly, total clarity of thought.
**** That wasn't Vetinari, that was the nut who THOUGHT he was Vetinari.

to:

*** ** This is true, as the City Watch are often falling over in several different directions. I think Vetinari makes his plans flexible enough to accommodate unpredictable outcomes. So he must think of a lot of possible outcomes, and guide events in the direction he wants, narrowing them down as time goes by. Even if it's partly an illusion, it benefits him to make people think he knew it was always going to happen that way, and he knows what they're doing now.
*** ** It's actually explicitly stated, at one point- Vetinari ponders to himself that only an incompetent leader needs to plan, while a competent one, such as himself, merely ''steers''. Vetinari is simply aware that most people hold the opposite conviction, and so takes care to present the whole thing (and quite possibly everything, ever) as one huge GambitRoulette, when in fact it is an all-encompassing IndyPloy as conducted by a man of genius and, more importantly, total clarity of thought.
**** ** That wasn't Vetinari, that was the nut who THOUGHT he was Vetinari.



*** Not entirely true: there's JerkSue and VillainSue subtypes.

to:

*** ** Not entirely true: there's JerkSue and VillainSue subtypes.



*** Or Leonard of Quirm [[spoiler:having visited Leshp in the past.]]
*** That is Vetinari to a T. He may not have expected Adora to do what she did, but within five minutes he had the pieces arranged so they were exactly where they had to be and everybody believed it was his plan all along.
*** There are two different portrayals of his operation. In one book we get this: "A great many rulers, good and bad and quite often dead, know what happened; a rare few actually manage, by dint of much effort, to know what's happening. Lord Vetinari considered both types to lack ambition." And another time we are told that he never relies on knowing what is going to happen, because that means that he will change it so it is not going to happen after all, making plans meaningless.
**** Just because he knows what's going to happen doesn't mean he relies on it. In all likelihood he has the equivalent of backup plans B through several other alphabets; he just doesn't need to spell them out for himself. The point is that trying to pin it down to one trick doesn't cut it.
**** You have to remember that Vetinari is constantly working and has an impressive staff to help him keep track of as much of what's going on as he can. The man is responsible for most things that happen in Ankh Morpork, but he's heavily reliant on the characters that push the plot along for his plans to work.
*** This is arguably one of Vetinari's greatest abilities. He is a superb ''manager''. He can even manage people who, by any normal standard, are completely unmanageable. Sam Vimes is practically the AnthropomorphicPersonification of stubborn integrity. Moist von Lipwig is a brilliant con artist. And yet Vetinari is quite deliberately maneuvering and exploiting these people. He deserves a share of the credit for their actions because without him, they would never have been in a position to do what they've done. For example, without Vetinari's support, Vimes would probably have fallen afoul of the aristocracy years ago.
*** Consensus seems to be that Vetinari's success comes from planning for all foreseeable outcomes, and the ability to rethink on the fly. Has anyone actually looked at the definition of XanatosGambit recently? It's not just any ludicrously complicated plan, people!
*** Same guy again: XanatosSpeedChess fits slightly better, actually, but the point remains.
**** I'm sure that if you gave yourself the opportunity to think this though, you would realize that the proper term would be Xanatos Speed Thud. However, it would not behoove you to also allow the opportunity to realize that Vetinari would not play at Speed antything. He would play at to his own measure. Don't let him detain you.
*** He uses a fair number of [[BatmanGambit Batman Gambits]] as well, mostly for the manipulation.

to:

*** ** Or Leonard of Quirm [[spoiler:having visited Leshp in the past.]]
*** ** That is Vetinari to a T. He may not have expected Adora to do what she did, but within five minutes he had the pieces arranged so they were exactly where they had to be and everybody believed it was his plan all along.
*** ** There are two different portrayals of his operation. In one book we get this: "A great many rulers, good and bad and quite often dead, know what happened; a rare few actually manage, by dint of much effort, to know what's happening. Lord Vetinari considered both types to lack ambition." And another time we are told that he never relies on knowing what is going to happen, because that means that he will change it so it is not going to happen after all, making plans meaningless.
**** ** Just because he knows what's going to happen doesn't mean he relies on it. In all likelihood he has the equivalent of backup plans B through several other alphabets; he just doesn't need to spell them out for himself. The point is that trying to pin it down to one trick doesn't cut it.
**** ** You have to remember that Vetinari is constantly working and has an impressive staff to help him keep track of as much of what's going on as he can. The man is responsible for most things that happen in Ankh Morpork, but he's heavily reliant on the characters that push the plot along for his plans to work.
*** ** This is arguably one of Vetinari's greatest abilities. He is a superb ''manager''. He can even manage people who, by any normal standard, are completely unmanageable. Sam Vimes is practically the AnthropomorphicPersonification of stubborn integrity. Moist von Lipwig is a brilliant con artist. And yet Vetinari is quite deliberately maneuvering and exploiting these people. He deserves a share of the credit for their actions because without him, they would never have been in a position to do what they've done. For example, without Vetinari's support, Vimes would probably have fallen afoul of the aristocracy years ago.
*** ** Consensus seems to be that Vetinari's success comes from planning for all foreseeable outcomes, and the ability to rethink on the fly. Has anyone actually looked at the definition of XanatosGambit recently? It's not just any ludicrously complicated plan, people!
*** ** Same guy again: XanatosSpeedChess fits slightly better, actually, but the point remains.
**** ** I'm sure that if you gave yourself the opportunity to think this though, you would realize that the proper term would be Xanatos Speed Thud. However, it would not behoove you to also allow the opportunity to realize that Vetinari would not play at Speed antything. He would play at to his own measure. Don't let him detain you.
*** ** He uses a fair number of [[BatmanGambit Batman Gambits]] as well, mostly for the manipulation.



*** Vetinari just happens to be a genius (bordering on savant) at recognising patterns and making connections. This actually plays into how he is portrayed throughout the series. I have a theory that Vetinari has Asperger's syndrome.
**** I agree on the Asperger's syndrome. Considering there are autists who can computate new prime numbers in their heads that even computers needs hours for, don't underestimate the capacities of the human brain.
**** I dunno. What I know about Asperger's (which is mostly being tentatively diagnosed with it, and then being told I probably didn't), says that Aspies have difficulty with social interaction. But dealing with people is Lord V's strongest suit.
**** Blind Io, why are people so quick to label an intelligent character as having Asperger's in the face of that character's biggest trait? Vetinari with Asperger's wouldn't even have made it to the position of Patrician.
**** Having lived and dealt with a person who suffers from Asperger's, I can say with confidence that Asperger's is something the cool, calm, and collected Patrician does ''not'' have.
**** Actually having Aspergers, I can say with confidence that you can indeed be cool, calm, and collected and can be quite adept in social interaction. Remember it is a very broad spectrum disorder.

to:

*** ** Vetinari just happens to be a genius (bordering on savant) at recognising patterns and making connections. This actually plays into how he is portrayed throughout the series. I have a theory that Vetinari has Asperger's syndrome.
**** ** I agree on the Asperger's syndrome. Considering there are autists who can computate new prime numbers in their heads that even computers needs hours for, don't underestimate the capacities of the human brain.
**** ** I dunno. What I know about Asperger's (which is mostly being tentatively diagnosed with it, and then being told I probably didn't), says that Aspies have difficulty with social interaction. But dealing with people is Lord V's strongest suit.
**** ** Blind Io, why are people so quick to label an intelligent character as having Asperger's in the face of that character's biggest trait? Vetinari with Asperger's wouldn't even have made it to the position of Patrician.
**** ** Having lived and dealt with a person who suffers from Asperger's, I can say with confidence that Asperger's is something the cool, calm, and collected Patrician does ''not'' have.
**** ** Actually having Aspergers, I can say with confidence that you can indeed be cool, calm, and collected and can be quite adept in social interaction. Remember it is a very broad spectrum disorder.



*** The implication seems to be that if she really wanted to be, she could be more powerful than Granny Weatherwax. But she's happy where she is, partly because working as a trio helped (and helps) to stop Granny from turning bad.

to:

*** ** The implication seems to be that if she really wanted to be, she could be more powerful than Granny Weatherwax. But she's happy where she is, partly because working as a trio helped (and helps) to stop Granny from turning bad.



*** I would like to know how we see Vetinari is a "masochist".
**** Well, he ''is'' the ruler of Ankh-Morpork.

to:

*** ** I would like to know how we see Vetinari is a "masochist".
**** ** Well, he ''is'' the ruler of Ankh-Morpork.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Rimfall]]



*** Assume that the water gets sucked back into underground caves or something.

to:

*** ** Assume that the water gets sucked back into underground caves or something.



*** There are gods. Hundreds of 'em. Can't remember a specific rain god being mentioned, but its part of a standard Pantheon (and do you really think the DW gods went to the trouble of getting a Bespoke mythology, or did they just take the easy option of 'off the peg...). A rain god has a very specific job. Therefore how he gets the water from the Rimfall back top is his problem.

to:

*** ** There are gods. Hundreds of 'em. Can't remember a specific rain god being mentioned, but its part of a standard Pantheon (and do you really think the DW gods went to the trouble of getting a Bespoke mythology, or did they just take the easy option of 'off the peg...). A rain god has a very specific job. Therefore how he gets the water from the Rimfall back top is his problem.



*** Yup. It says so the ''Discworld Companion''.

to:

*** ** Yup. It says so the ''Discworld Companion''.



* Why do people keep asking questions about how the Discworld actually works, when it's made quite clear that it's all physically impossible and held together with magic and duct tape?
** Why do people keep insisting that the gravity is impossible and the water system is unworkable, while having absolutely no problem with the fundamental point that it is a ''completely flat, round world supported by four elephants and a turtle''? Or that there are wizards and witches? Or that the History Monks are able to piece broken history back together? That history can break in the first place?
** Why do scientists keep trying to work out how this world actually works, when it's quite clear that it's all physically impossible and held together with magic and duct tape?
*** Because our world is ''not'' physically impossible and held together with magic and duct tape.
**** I disagree--look at a quantum physics textbook and try saying that again with a straight face.
**** It's been done. Repeatedly, even.
***** Rather than "magic and duct tape" I'd say Hilbert spaces and self-adjoint operators, in our case.
**** Hilarious though this line of conversation is, I'd like to just say this one thing to whoever next decides to be a wiseass and say, "Well, how do you know?" or ask a similar question that applies to our world: The Discworld is not Earth. It is not even in the same goddamn [[Main/TheVerse universe]]. It has its own rules and its own physics. These rules do not necessarily have to be explained. The physics are a lot like our own, yes, but then we've got entire segments of the setting that, quite frankly, as stated above, work by magic and duct tape. Main/BellisariosMaxim, people.
** For the same reason people spend hours and real money to make a toy landscape for toy trains. It entertains them.
*** Actually, these are all the scientific questions we need to answer if we're going to build a Discworld 2.0. and thus are worth answering. Octarine flashlight, anyone?
**** On a related note, if there are any online communities for people interested in fan-making ''{{GURPS}} Literature/{{Discworld}} [[ElectricBoogaloo Again]]''... Seriously, if you've got a fictional universe that interests you, you may as well reverse-engineer it and come to a consensus with other researchers while you're spending all that time on it anyway, instead of just look at all the wires that seem to lead to nowhere and give up on ever assigning sense to it.
** A'tuin and the elephants drink the water that spills over the edge. Where the replacement water comes from, YouDoNOTWantToKnow.
** TheoryOfNarrativeCausality

to:

* Why do people keep asking questions about how the Discworld actually works, when it's made quite clear that it's all physically impossible and held together with magic and duct tape?
** Why do people keep insisting that the gravity is impossible and the water system is unworkable, while having absolutely no problem with the fundamental point that it is a ''completely flat, round world supported by four elephants and a turtle''? Or that there are wizards and witches? Or that the History Monks are able to piece broken history back together? That history can break in the first place?
** Why do scientists keep trying to work out how this world actually works, when it's quite clear that it's all physically impossible and held together with magic and duct tape?
*** Because our world is ''not'' physically impossible and held together with magic and duct tape.
**** I disagree--look at a quantum physics textbook and try saying that again with a straight face.
**** It's been done. Repeatedly, even.
***** Rather than "magic and duct tape" I'd say Hilbert spaces and self-adjoint operators, in our case.
**** Hilarious though this line of conversation is, I'd like to just say this one thing to whoever next decides to be a wiseass and say, "Well, how do you know?" or ask a similar question that applies to our world: The Discworld is not Earth. It is not even in the same goddamn [[Main/TheVerse universe]]. It has its own rules and its own physics. These rules do not necessarily have to be explained. The physics are a lot like our own, yes, but then we've got entire segments of the setting that, quite frankly, as stated above, work by magic and duct tape. Main/BellisariosMaxim, people.
** For the same reason people spend hours and real money to make a toy landscape for toy trains. It entertains them.
*** Actually, these are all the scientific questions we need to answer if we're going to build a Discworld 2.0. and thus are worth answering. Octarine flashlight, anyone?
**** On a related note, if there are any online communities for people interested in fan-making ''{{GURPS}} Literature/{{Discworld}} [[ElectricBoogaloo Again]]''... Seriously, if you've got a fictional universe that interests you, you may as well reverse-engineer it and come to a consensus with other researchers while you're spending all that time on it anyway, instead of just look at all the wires that seem to lead to nowhere and give up on ever assigning sense to it.
** A'tuin and the elephants drink the water that spills over the edge. Where the replacement water comes from, YouDoNOTWantToKnow.
** TheoryOfNarrativeCausality
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Deaths]]



*** [[spoiler:Death of Rats wasn't the only one. Reread the last little bit of Reaper Man.]]
**** Actually, that bit is slightly ambiguous, considering that the Death of Fleas hasn't been mentioned since probably means that it isn't around anymore.
***** Considering that the Death of Fleas was a throwaway joke, during the phrase of Pratchett's writing style in which throwaway jokes and footnotes were commonplace, I don't think you're ''supposed'' to think about what happened to, er... him? Besides, unless fleas stop dying or go extinct somehow, I don't see how it could 'die'.
***** Perhaps it decided that being an independent Death was more bother than it was worth, and allowed itself to be reincorporated into Death-Of-Everything-But-Rats. It was too tiny to get up to mischief like the Death Of Rats, so probably didn't enjoy its independence much.
****** WordOfGod is that all the minor Deaths were to be throwaway jokes. But Death of Rats was too cool.

to:

*** ** [[spoiler:Death of Rats wasn't the only one. Reread the last little bit of Reaper Man.]]
**** ** Actually, that bit is slightly ambiguous, considering that the Death of Fleas hasn't been mentioned since probably means that it isn't around anymore.
***** ** Considering that the Death of Fleas was a throwaway joke, during the phrase of Pratchett's writing style in which throwaway jokes and footnotes were commonplace, I don't think you're ''supposed'' to think about what happened to, er... him? Besides, unless fleas stop dying or go extinct somehow, I don't see how it could 'die'.
***** ** Perhaps it decided that being an independent Death was more bother than it was worth, and allowed itself to be reincorporated into Death-Of-Everything-But-Rats. It was too tiny to get up to mischief like the Death Of Rats, so probably didn't enjoy its independence much.
****** ** WordOfGod is that all the minor Deaths were to be throwaway jokes. But Death of Rats was too cool.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Afterlife you believe in]]



*** They may get the afterlife they ''subconsciously'' believe in. That's essentially what happened to at least one of the casualties in ''Small Gods'': deep down, he didn't really believe in Omnianism, he just believed that if you do what you can to do what's right, things will work out all right. We don't see where he ends up, but he's hopeful as he crosses the desert, so things probably did so.

to:

*** ** They may get the afterlife they ''subconsciously'' believe in. That's essentially what happened to at least one of the casualties in ''Small Gods'': deep down, he didn't really believe in Omnianism, he just believed that if you do what you can to do what's right, things will work out all right. We don't see where he ends up, but he's hopeful as he crosses the desert, so things probably did so.



*** The Desert, maybe? That's where the Hiver goes, and it didn't even ''understand'' how to die.
*** A similar situation to this is dealt with at the end of ''The Truth''. One character believes in an afterlife, but that is ALL he believes in - no outline, no details, nothing. He just knows that there will be one, and Death is not particularly happy to be the one who has to sort it out. [[spoiler: Ultimately, he sits in the The Desert and thinks about it until he comes to a decision, and what he decides is granted exactly as he expects.]]

to:

*** ** The Desert, maybe? That's where the Hiver goes, and it didn't even ''understand'' how to die.
*** ** A similar situation to this is dealt with at the end of ''The Truth''. One character believes in an afterlife, but that is ALL he believes in - no outline, no details, nothing. He just knows that there will be one, and Death is not particularly happy to be the one who has to sort it out. [[spoiler: Ultimately, he sits in the The Desert and thinks about it until he comes to a decision, and what he decides is granted exactly as he expects.]]



*** In my interpretation, the thing with Mr. Pounder was that while he didn't consciously believe in reincarnation, he's just meant to be a rat, and given the opportunity, his morphogenic field beat out his conscious thought.
*** I'm reminded of the situation of the Silver Horde's teacher, who died in 'glorious' battle. He wasn't sure what he believed in, but since he was so awesome, he got a choice. He picked Valhalla, so he can teach the barbarians some manners, which was the kind of thing he incredibly enjoyed doing in life.

*** Atheists, agnostics, nonbelievers and those who believe in gods but not afterlives go to the Dungeon Dimensions. These Dimensions are equivalent to Hell and separated from the world by L-Space. One exception: A philosopher believed in Gods "just to be safe." He died and awoke, surrounded by Gods who held baseball bats and asked, "are you safe?"
**** No that aren't - Hell is specifically described as being something entirely different to the Dungeon Dimensions in Eric.
**** It was "we really don't like a smart-ass". And ''no they effing don't''. ''Nobody'' goes to the Dungeon Dimensions when they die. What happens is what you really ''believe'' will occur, and no one really believes that they are going to cease to exist. Intellectually, yes. Emotionally, no.
***** Some people most certainly "effing do" believe, intellectually and emotionally, that they are going to cease to exist. Also, on the Disc, people who believe they will go to the Dungeon Dimensions will go there, that's how it works for the most part.
***** Actually, quite a lot of people believe that. Also, since you get exactly what you believe, anyone who seriously believes in unconscious oblivion will get exactly that (unless, as noted in previous examples, they have made a particular afterlife believe in ''them'').
***** Considering how often wizards have to stop and explain about them in the early novels, it seems like the average Discworlder has never even ''heard'' of the Dungeon Dimensions, never mind believing they'll wind up there after death.
*** Golems don't believe in an afterlife as they don't generally expect to die, and in fact expect to outlast the universe. Anghammarad is surprised he is still around after being shattered; however he still ends up in the desert with Death. It seems most people get the 'gritty black sand' desert for a short time, but possibly atheists then fade away to oblivion while believers go onto an afterlife. Anghammarad, unusually, decided not to do either.
**** The reason Death was afraid to die in ''Reaper Man'' was because he doesn't believe in anything and will cease to exist...or at least that's what he says. But whether it's possible for humans to pop out of existence for the same reason or whether Death is a special case, I don't know.
*** Death's a special case:

to:

*** ** In my interpretation, the thing with Mr. Pounder was that while he didn't consciously believe in reincarnation, he's just meant to be a rat, and given the opportunity, his morphogenic field beat out his conscious thought.
*** ** I'm reminded of the situation of the Silver Horde's teacher, who died in 'glorious' battle. He wasn't sure what he believed in, but since he was so awesome, he got a choice. He picked Valhalla, so he can teach the barbarians some manners, which was the kind of thing he incredibly enjoyed doing in life.

***
life.
**
Atheists, agnostics, nonbelievers and those who believe in gods but not afterlives go to the Dungeon Dimensions. These Dimensions are equivalent to Hell and separated from the world by L-Space. One exception: A philosopher believed in Gods "just to be safe." He died and awoke, surrounded by Gods who held baseball bats and asked, "are you safe?"
**** ** No that aren't - Hell is specifically described as being something entirely different to the Dungeon Dimensions in Eric.
**** ** It was "we really don't like a smart-ass". And ''no they effing don't''. ''Nobody'' goes to the Dungeon Dimensions when they die. What happens is what you really ''believe'' will occur, and no one really believes that they are going to cease to exist. Intellectually, yes. Emotionally, no.
***** ** Some people most certainly "effing do" believe, intellectually and emotionally, that they are going to cease to exist. Also, on the Disc, people who believe they will go to the Dungeon Dimensions will go there, that's how it works for the most part.
***** ** Actually, quite a lot of people believe that. Also, since you get exactly what you believe, anyone who seriously believes in unconscious oblivion will get exactly that (unless, as noted in previous examples, they have made a particular afterlife believe in ''them'').
***** ** Considering how often wizards have to stop and explain about them in the early novels, it seems like the average Discworlder has never even ''heard'' of the Dungeon Dimensions, never mind believing they'll wind up there after death.
*** ** Golems don't believe in an afterlife as they don't generally expect to die, and in fact expect to outlast the universe. Anghammarad is surprised he is still around after being shattered; however he still ends up in the desert with Death. It seems most people get the 'gritty black sand' desert for a short time, but possibly atheists then fade away to oblivion while believers go onto an afterlife. Anghammarad, unusually, decided not to do either.
**** ** The reason Death was afraid to die in ''Reaper Man'' was because he doesn't believe in anything and will cease to exist...or at least that's what he says. But whether it's possible for humans to pop out of existence for the same reason or whether Death is a special case, I don't know.
*** ** Death's a special case:



*** Note that Lady [=LeJean=]/Unity didn't expect an afterlife, but she apparently got one. What kind, we don't get to see, but it's one case where an entity that expected nothing but oblivion ''didn't'' simply vanish.

to:

*** ** Note that Lady [=LeJean=]/Unity didn't expect an afterlife, but she apparently got one. What kind, we don't get to see, but it's one case where an entity that expected nothing but oblivion ''didn't'' simply vanish.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Sto Helit and the Duchess]]



*** Not if they are duchesses by marriage, no. But Susan ''inherited'' Sto Helit, which makes her the reigning duchess. It is a little like Elizabeth I abandoning her throne to take up a life as a school teacher. Susan is an actual ruler who appears to have deserted her duties, seemingly for good (there is no suggestion she is seeking life experience or education or the like to make her a better ruler). She doesn't even seem remotely connected.
**** It's also possible that by Susan's time, dukes and duchesses are just landed gentry, they don't actually do any ruling.
***** In a single generation? After a period of clearly hands on ruling and very important work by Mort? Susan's lack of duties (if not her lack of interest) might make sense with a Victorian (or Ankhian) noblewoman but it is jarringly at odds with what we see in ''Mort'' and even what we hear about in the later books.
****** Well one of the best ways to unite a large area of feudal lords would be to turn them into landed gentry. After Mort was finished the Dukes had very little power, probably in exchange for privileges and so on.
****** Assuming that Mort managed to finish his work of uniting the people of the plains before he died, there's probably no reason Keli (who as far as we know is still alive; she was last referred to in 'Going Postal') couldn't handle the day-to-day ruling on Susan's behalf. We do know that, in contrast to Ankh-Morpork, the Sto plains are usually an extremely quiet and boring place.
**** Remember that Mort ''knew'' he was going to die when Susan was still a minor. He would've laid the groundwork for Sto Helit to be governed by competent managers while his daughter grew up, and Susan has simply let her father's appointees continue to manage things. Considering how ruling the city herself, as a traditional noblewoman, would almost certainly entail a lot of arranged marriage proposals -- something that might've been okay for her friend Jade, but that she's not temperementally suited to -- it's probably a good thing she's not interested in Duchessing.
**** The "officially unofficial" ''{{GURPS}}'' book says that Sto Helit is currently run on a day-to-day basis by a council of burghers, but when Susan's in town what she says goes ... eventually.

to:

*** ** Not if they are duchesses by marriage, no. But Susan ''inherited'' Sto Helit, which makes her the reigning duchess. It is a little like Elizabeth I abandoning her throne to take up a life as a school teacher. Susan is an actual ruler who appears to have deserted her duties, seemingly for good (there is no suggestion she is seeking life experience or education or the like to make her a better ruler). She doesn't even seem remotely connected.
**** ** It's also possible that by Susan's time, dukes and duchesses are just landed gentry, they don't actually do any ruling.
***** ** In a single generation? After a period of clearly hands on ruling and very important work by Mort? Susan's lack of duties (if not her lack of interest) might make sense with a Victorian (or Ankhian) noblewoman but it is jarringly at odds with what we see in ''Mort'' and even what we hear about in the later books.
****** ** Well one of the best ways to unite a large area of feudal lords would be to turn them into landed gentry. After Mort was finished the Dukes had very little power, probably in exchange for privileges and so on.
****** ** Assuming that Mort managed to finish his work of uniting the people of the plains before he died, there's probably no reason Keli (who as far as we know is still alive; she was last referred to in 'Going Postal') couldn't handle the day-to-day ruling on Susan's behalf. We do know that, in contrast to Ankh-Morpork, the Sto plains are usually an extremely quiet and boring place.
**** ** Remember that Mort ''knew'' he was going to die when Susan was still a minor. He would've laid the groundwork for Sto Helit to be governed by competent managers while his daughter grew up, and Susan has simply let her father's appointees continue to manage things. Considering how ruling the city herself, as a traditional noblewoman, would almost certainly entail a lot of arranged marriage proposals -- something that might've been okay for her friend Jade, but that she's not temperementally suited to -- it's probably a good thing she's not interested in Duchessing.
**** ** The "officially unofficial" ''{{GURPS}}'' book says that Sto Helit is currently run on a day-to-day basis by a council of burghers, but when Susan's in town what she says goes ... eventually.
eventually.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Zombies]]



*** At least, not yet.

to:

*** ** At least, not yet.



*** This, pretty much. Death, on the Disc, is something entirely different from when your body stops living--in most people the two things occur at the same time. In zombies, one simply happened a while before the other.

to:

*** ** This, pretty much. Death, on the Disc, is something entirely different from when your body stops living--in most people the two things occur at the same time. In zombies, one simply happened a while before the other.



*** Windle Poons explicitly believes in reincarnation, and was going to come back as a woman. However, since Death was retired at the time, no-one came to get him, leaving him wandering alone, and deciding to return to a familiar host body. In most cases however becoming a zombie entails just an incredibly strong will to live, or some serious unfinished business that can't be done by a ghost.
*** I thought you needed some sort of root...?
*** Or a voodoo-lady ''amour'' who shares your grudge against your killer.

to:

*** ** Windle Poons explicitly believes in reincarnation, and was going to come back as a woman. However, since Death was retired at the time, no-one came to get him, leaving him wandering alone, and deciding to return to a familiar host body. In most cases however becoming a zombie entails just an incredibly strong will to live, or some serious unfinished business that can't be done by a ghost.
*** ** I thought you needed some sort of root...?
*** ** Or a voodoo-lady ''amour'' who shares your grudge against your killer.
killer.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Carrot]]



*** Honest? He killed Cruces. Without a trial. And for extremely egotistic reasons. He is at least partly responsible for Gavin's death. He broke into Mended Drum and replaced the questions in the quiz machine so that he could arrest the customers. From ''Men at Arms'' it's clear that most of his friendliness is just a mask (behind the mask he's still friendly but in a different way). And in some talks with Vetinari he seems to basically say that he's waiting until he will be really needed.
**** He killed Cruces in defence of Vimes, really, and because he thought Cruces was too powerful to beat peacefully. He believes "personal isn't the same as important" and that sometimes means he makes very cold-blooded decisions: there's no suggestion that he feels good about doing so. Ankh-Morpork is a rough place - Vimes has also killed people in the execution of what he considers to be his duty, remember. I thought it was a case of KnightsTemplar more than anything.
***** Plus, the people he killed and/or played dirty tricks to arrest were guilty. I mean, a few cheap (not even illegal) tricks to find out the real culprit of a dangerous crime just saves everybody some bother.
***** No, he killed Cruces because he had known the secret. He was not holding the gonne at the moment. And as for personal and important - after [=T5E=] it can be discussed. And for instance the first scene in [=T5E=] - he is effectively framing people into crimes they didn't commit and because they held Angua hostage. Personal and important, my ass.
****** Cruces WAS holding the gonne at the moment. Carrot may be simple, honest, and straightforward, but he isn't stupid. He might have not killed Cruces if the asassin hadn't said "But now we must remove this annoying policeman." Referring to VIMES. He had the gonne. Carrot had seen firsthand how powerful the influence of said weapon had been, almost corrupting [[{{Determinator}} Vimes.]] If he hadn't killed Cruces, Vimes would have died. And when Carrot has to choose between killing Cruces and possibly corrupting himself in the process of doing the right thing or letting Vimes die, you can sure as hell bet he'll do the right thing. The other choice will never enter his mind.
****** Cruces *was definitely* holding the Gonne having retrieved it - although it is implied that the Gonne itself was steadying his aim - but ultimately whether Cruces was holding the Gonne or not, the fact is that he was armed, and had attempted to (and was still intending to) kill a Watchman. It's never explicitly stated, but if the 'Mirror' aspect of Discworld holds true, then that authorised Carrot to use deadly force (see: any cop show or movie you care to name). Combine that with Carrot's affection for Vimes and you have Legal, Personal and Important all covered.
******* ''(Intentional or not, Carrot's actions at the end of ''Discworld/GuardsGuards'' and ''Discworld/MenAtArms'' echo the ending of Robocop. In the case of the former, a seemingly innocuous phrase from Vimes allows Carrot to [[spoiler:knock the bad guy off a ledge to his death]]. In the case of the latter, [[spoiler:the bad guy's own words satisfy all the requirements to allow Carrot to dispatch him]].)''
***** First if you think that lacking the Gonne meant that Crunces harmless, you are just plain wrong. As in dead wrong. Second, you might want to re-read that business with the people who kidnapped Angua. Not only is Carrot uneasy, but the whole system of Crime and Punishment in that city works on the principle of finding someone to punish, and exactly how long do you think it would take for someone to be stupid enough to kidnap a Watchman again.
*** Yeah, Carrot explicitly asks if it's really okay for them to be doing this, and Reg Shoe (I think?) answers that the charges won't stand up anyway, so they're just making them sweat.
***** Moreover, Carrot didn't ''need'' to kill Cruces to conceal his royal heritage. If he'd brought Cruces in alive, Vetinari would've simply made the evidence disappear, and the Patrician and Carrot would've come to exactly the same understanding: Vetinari wants to govern and Carrot doesn't, and they both want the city to thrive. Saving Vimes was the ''only'' reason to kill the man on the spot.
***** ...Because he's kindly, and charismatic, and handsome, and pretty much everyone's definition of a hero? It wasn't his fault Gavin died; Carrot has A Destiny that bends the world around him to his benefit, and it manifested in that instance as Gavin attacking Wolf and getting killed. Yeah, he is a bit manipulative, but he ''has'' to be, he's a goddamn cop in goddamn Ankh-Morpork! I think he's justified in being a bit underhanded! As for Cruces' death, he ''was'' holding the gonne and about to shoot Vimes, according to my copy; Carrot steps between them to stab Cruces. And I can't find any scene in The Fifth Elephant like you're describing; the closest thing to it has nothing to do with Carrot and in fact involves Angua and ''Nobby''. However, Carrot is shown in just about every other scene to be genuinely good and optimistic and sweet. He doesn't care about what people look like or what they were born as, he's deeply respectful of everyone's beliefs, he loves his city, he loves Angua, and he doesn't, even for a ''second'', show any sign of wanting power for its own sake. He sure sounds like a good guy to me.
***** Besides, i think the point is that due to his returning-kingly qualities, people (in the books at least) ''have'' to like him. There are several instances where he manages to pull off impossible feats of charisma. So it doesn't matter how nasty he is as a person, people will still like him (unless they're as cynical as Vimes, of course)
***** Even Vimes: "Everyone likes him. I'd be annoyed about that, if he wasn't so likeable".
***** WordOfGod on the hostage scene in ''Jingo'' (not ''Fifth Elephant'' but I think it's the one being referred to):

to:

*** ** Honest? He killed Cruces. Without a trial. And for extremely egotistic reasons. He is at least partly responsible for Gavin's death. He broke into Mended Drum and replaced the questions in the quiz machine so that he could arrest the customers. From ''Men at Arms'' it's clear that most of his friendliness is just a mask (behind the mask he's still friendly but in a different way). And in some talks with Vetinari he seems to basically say that he's waiting until he will be really needed.
**** ** He killed Cruces in defence of Vimes, really, and because he thought Cruces was too powerful to beat peacefully. He believes "personal isn't the same as important" and that sometimes means he makes very cold-blooded decisions: there's no suggestion that he feels good about doing so. Ankh-Morpork is a rough place - Vimes has also killed people in the execution of what he considers to be his duty, remember. I thought it was a case of KnightsTemplar more than anything.
***** ** Plus, the people he killed and/or played dirty tricks to arrest were guilty. I mean, a few cheap (not even illegal) tricks to find out the real culprit of a dangerous crime just saves everybody some bother.
***** ** No, he killed Cruces because he had known the secret. He was not holding the gonne at the moment. And as for personal and important - after [=T5E=] it can be discussed. And for instance the first scene in [=T5E=] - he is effectively framing people into crimes they didn't commit and because they held Angua hostage. Personal and important, my ass.
****** ** Cruces WAS holding the gonne at the moment. Carrot may be simple, honest, and straightforward, but he isn't stupid. He might have not killed Cruces if the asassin assassin hadn't said "But now we must remove this annoying policeman." Referring to VIMES. He had the gonne. Carrot had seen firsthand how powerful the influence of said weapon had been, almost corrupting [[{{Determinator}} Vimes.]] If he hadn't killed Cruces, Vimes would have died. And when Carrot has to choose between killing Cruces and possibly corrupting himself in the process of doing the right thing or letting Vimes die, you can sure as hell bet he'll do the right thing. The other choice will never enter his mind.
****** ** Cruces *was definitely* holding the Gonne having retrieved it - although it is implied that the Gonne itself was steadying his aim - but ultimately whether Cruces was holding the Gonne or not, the fact is that he was armed, and had attempted to (and was still intending to) kill a Watchman. It's never explicitly stated, but if the 'Mirror' aspect of Discworld holds true, then that authorised Carrot to use deadly force (see: any cop show or movie you care to name). Combine that with Carrot's affection for Vimes and you have Legal, Personal and Important all covered.
******* ** ''(Intentional or not, Carrot's actions at the end of ''Discworld/GuardsGuards'' and ''Discworld/MenAtArms'' echo the ending of Robocop. In the case of the former, a seemingly innocuous phrase from Vimes allows Carrot to [[spoiler:knock the bad guy off a ledge to his death]]. In the case of the latter, [[spoiler:the bad guy's own words satisfy all the requirements to allow Carrot to dispatch him]].)''
***** ** First if you think that lacking the Gonne meant that Crunces harmless, you are just plain wrong. As in dead wrong. Second, you might want to re-read that business with the people who kidnapped Angua. Not only is Carrot uneasy, but the whole system of Crime and Punishment in that city works on the principle of finding someone to punish, and exactly how long do you think it would take for someone to be stupid enough to kidnap a Watchman again.
*** ** Yeah, Carrot explicitly asks if it's really okay for them to be doing this, and Reg Shoe (I think?) answers that the charges won't stand up anyway, so they're just making them sweat.
***** ** Moreover, Carrot didn't ''need'' to kill Cruces to conceal his royal heritage. If he'd brought Cruces in alive, Vetinari would've simply made the evidence disappear, and the Patrician and Carrot would've come to exactly the same understanding: Vetinari wants to govern and Carrot doesn't, and they both want the city to thrive. Saving Vimes was the ''only'' reason to kill the man on the spot.
***** ...** ...Because he's kindly, and charismatic, and handsome, and pretty much everyone's definition of a hero? It wasn't his fault Gavin died; Carrot has A Destiny that bends the world around him to his benefit, and it manifested in that instance as Gavin attacking Wolf and getting killed. Yeah, he is a bit manipulative, but he ''has'' to be, he's a goddamn cop in goddamn Ankh-Morpork! I think he's justified in being a bit underhanded! As for Cruces' death, he ''was'' holding the gonne and about to shoot Vimes, according to my copy; Carrot steps between them to stab Cruces. And I can't find any scene in The Fifth Elephant like you're describing; the closest thing to it has nothing to do with Carrot and in fact involves Angua and ''Nobby''. However, Carrot is shown in just about every other scene to be genuinely good and optimistic and sweet. He doesn't care about what people look like or what they were born as, he's deeply respectful of everyone's beliefs, he loves his city, he loves Angua, and he doesn't, even for a ''second'', show any sign of wanting power for its own sake. He sure sounds like a good guy to me.
***** ** Besides, i think the point is that due to his returning-kingly qualities, people (in the books at least) ''have'' to like him. There are several instances where he manages to pull off impossible feats of charisma. So it doesn't matter how nasty he is as a person, people will still like him (unless they're as cynical as Vimes, of course)
***** ** Even Vimes: "Everyone likes him. I'd be annoyed about that, if he wasn't so likeable".
***** ** WordOfGod on the hostage scene in ''Jingo'' (not ''Fifth Elephant'' but I think it's the one being referred to):



***** And it's ''not Carrot's idea'': he asks Reg, with genuine concern, if it's coercion, and Reg responds that they ''chose'' to take a werewolf hostage. It's certainly not "personal being important", because he's ''not'' worried about Angua, he's more worried ''she's'' going to hurt ''them''!
***** TruthInTelevision: Cop killers are rarely brought in alive.
***** The only way Carrot was "responsible" for Gavin's death is by not being fast enough to make the HeroicSacrifice himself. It's even stated in the book that he would have if Gavin hadn't.

to:

***** ** And it's ''not Carrot's idea'': he asks Reg, with genuine concern, if it's coercion, and Reg responds that they ''chose'' to take a werewolf hostage. It's certainly not "personal being important", because he's ''not'' worried about Angua, he's more worried ''she's'' going to hurt ''them''!
***** ** TruthInTelevision: Cop killers are rarely brought in alive.
***** ** The only way Carrot was "responsible" for Gavin's death is by not being fast enough to make the HeroicSacrifice himself. It's even stated in the book that he would have if Gavin hadn't.



*** Angua at the very least is real to him; he ''abandoned his duty'' to follow her, when he didn't even know if she was going to need him.
*** Seems that some readers are ascribing traits to Carrot that don't exist. When Pratchett says stuff like "he cares about everyone" it's exactly what it says on the tin in black and white, even to a fault. You don't have to like him, though, even Vimes says something like, "he wouldn't like him except that he's so damn like-able."
*** And anyway, wouldn't the sort of "very nice sociopath" in question be quite suitable as a king, which is what the universe has decided Carrot is destined to be? His whole "personal isn't the same as important" maxim is essentially his way of expressing, consciously or not, that his kingly duty to his kingdom and subjects takes precedent over personal interests. He's a lot like Vetinari, really, but trades out the latter's dictatorial intimidation for a more appropriately royal charisma.

to:

*** ** Angua at the very least is real to him; he ''abandoned his duty'' to follow her, when he didn't even know if she was going to need him.
*** ** Seems that some readers are ascribing traits to Carrot that don't exist. When Pratchett says stuff like "he cares about everyone" it's exactly what it says on the tin in black and white, even to a fault. You don't have to like him, though, even Vimes says something like, "he wouldn't like him except that he's so damn like-able."
*** ** And anyway, wouldn't the sort of "very nice sociopath" in question be quite suitable as a king, which is what the universe has decided Carrot is destined to be? His whole "personal isn't the same as important" maxim is essentially his way of expressing, consciously or not, that his kingly duty to his kingdom and subjects takes precedent over personal interests. He's a lot like Vetinari, really, but trades out the latter's dictatorial intimidation for a more appropriately royal charisma.



*** Honest, yes, simple, no, he does after all manage to trick Doctor Whiteface into a confession in Men At Arms with no more than a bluff, if it's really a bluff.
**** Fred says right after that bluff that he had seen people bluff with a bad hand, Carrot bluffed with ''no cards.''

to:

*** ** Honest, yes, simple, no, he does after all manage to trick Doctor Whiteface into a confession in Men At Arms with no more than a bluff, if it's really a bluff.
**** ** Fred says right after that bluff that he had seen people bluff with a bad hand, Carrot bluffed with ''no cards.''



*** That, or [[BrickJoke the fact he doesn't have a beard]]
**** Oh Gods, it's his Bags of Krisma, they'll kill us all!!! (After They make us like him for doing it, of course.)

to:

*** ** That, or [[BrickJoke the fact he doesn't have a beard]]
**** ** Oh Gods, it's his Bags of Krisma, they'll kill us all!!! (After They make us like him for doing it, of course.)



*** What are you talking about? Vetinari is the very embodiment of ascetism who cares about nothing but perfect functioning of his city. He lives on bread and water and barely ever sleeps. His only selfish indulgidences are crossword puzzles and Thud-games. Any action that he ever commits is for the good of the city, never for personal gain. Carrot on the other hand does not scheme, period. Sometimes he's simple in a way that requires extreme cleverness, but the reason why he is a Captain rather than Commander or a politician is because he wants to be executing justice in person, not talking about it.
*** I see the difference being that Carrot is willing to sacrifice himself in a situation to preserve the safety of the city and the people he cares about, while Vetinari recognises that the best thing for Ankh Morpork is his continued survival as ruler.
*** In Vetinari's defense on that one, Carrot and Vetinari have more than implied that the only reason Carrot allows Vetinari to stay Patrician is because that it's best for Ankh-Morpork. Also Ankh-Morpork doesn't need Carrot the king, it needs Carrot the copper.

to:

*** ** What are you talking about? Vetinari is the very embodiment of ascetism who cares about nothing but perfect functioning of his city. He lives on bread and water and barely ever sleeps. His only selfish indulgidences are crossword puzzles and Thud-games. Any action that he ever commits is for the good of the city, never for personal gain. Carrot on the other hand does not scheme, period. Sometimes he's simple in a way that requires extreme cleverness, but the reason why he is a Captain rather than Commander or a politician is because he wants to be executing justice in person, not talking about it.
*** ** I see the difference being that Carrot is willing to sacrifice himself in a situation to preserve the safety of the city and the people he cares about, while Vetinari recognises that the best thing for Ankh Morpork is his continued survival as ruler.
*** ** In Vetinari's defense on that one, Carrot and Vetinari have more than implied that the only reason Carrot allows Vetinari to stay Patrician is because that it's best for Ankh-Morpork. Also Ankh-Morpork doesn't need Carrot the king, it needs Carrot the copper.



*** Carrot fully understands that he has almost supernatural charisma and if he wanted to, he could have the entire city eating out of the palm of his hand. But he doesn't just want peace on the street solely because people like to obey him. He wants peace only if it's because the people decide that they want to act like better and more lawful people. There's nothing duplicitous or fake about that.

to:

*** ** Carrot fully understands that he has almost supernatural charisma and if he wanted to, he could have the entire city eating out of the palm of his hand. But he doesn't just want peace on the street solely because people like to obey him. He wants peace only if it's because the people decide that they want to act like better and more lawful people. There's nothing duplicitous or fake about that.
that.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Female dwarfs in Carrot's past]]



*** Not according to the books. If I recall correctly, one of them mentions that dwarven courtship mostly consists of trying to find out, as tactfully as possible, what gender the other dwarf actually is. Of course, this means that Carrot might have just been referring to a dwarf he ''hoped'' was female.
**** Or he's just an exceptionally good judge of these things.
***** He isn't. He couldn't figure out that Cheery is female. Also, the dwarf was called Minty, which is probably intended to be feminine.
***** If I remember correctly he actually says that he '''thinks''' she's female, he isn't 100% sure.
***** Actually, Carrot is referring to his mother. Paraphrased: "I have no problem with female dwarves. I'm fairly certain that my mother is one"
*** "I have a- a sort of ''thing'' going on with Minty Rocksmasher, she's got a beard as soft as a, as a very soft thing, and I'm almost certain she's female!"
**** Actually it's "But you know, me and - you know Minty Rocksmacker? She's really beautiful, dad, got a beard as soft as, a, a, a very soft thing - we've got an understanding, and-", to which the king replies, "Yes (...) Her father's had a word with me", and to himself, "So did her mother with your mother, and then ''she'' had a word with me." No uncertainty as to Minty's gender is mentioned. Also, notice how both Carrot and his father use the female pronoun, immediately after the footnote explaining that dwarfs never do and despite the fact that they are most likely talking in Dwarfish, which doesn't have separate pronouns at all. Although it could be TranslationConvention, I suppose.

to:

*** ** Not according to the books. If I recall correctly, one of them mentions that dwarven courtship mostly consists of trying to find out, as tactfully as possible, what gender the other dwarf actually is. Of course, this means that Carrot might have just been referring to a dwarf he ''hoped'' was female.
**** ** Or he's just an exceptionally good judge of these things.
***** ** He isn't. He couldn't figure out that Cheery is female. Also, the dwarf was called Minty, which is probably intended to be feminine.
***** ** If I remember correctly he actually says that he '''thinks''' she's female, he isn't 100% sure.
***** ** Actually, Carrot is referring to his mother. Paraphrased: "I have no problem with female dwarves. I'm fairly certain that my mother is one"
*** ** "I have a- a sort of ''thing'' going on with Minty Rocksmasher, she's got a beard as soft as a, as a very soft thing, and I'm almost certain she's female!"
**** ** Actually it's "But you know, me and - you know Minty Rocksmacker? She's really beautiful, dad, got a beard as soft as, a, a, a very soft thing - we've got an understanding, and-", to which the king replies, "Yes (...) Her father's had a word with me", and to himself, "So did her mother with your mother, and then ''she'' had a word with me." No uncertainty as to Minty's gender is mentioned. Also, notice how both Carrot and his father use the female pronoun, immediately after the footnote explaining that dwarfs never do and despite the fact that they are most likely talking in Dwarfish, which doesn't have separate pronouns at all. Although it could be TranslationConvention, I suppose.



*** That and it explains perfectly why he never got any replies back from them, and why his adopted father was keen on getting him to Ankh-Morpork. He just doesn't have the built-in dwarf gender-radar they have.
*** Dwarfs don't have "gender-radar" either. It's noted a few times that a large part of dwarf courtship consists of figuring out, very tactfully, what sex the other dwarf actually is, and once they're married, everyone else stops caring and just assumes the two of them know which is which. It wouldn't be beyond the possibility for there to have been a number of entirely-accidental same-sex dwarf marriages.
*** I've seen a couple of British TV shows that have had male characters nicknamed Minty.
*** Getting back to the 2nd ** subpoint, if ever there was a Dwarf name associated with femininity, wouldn't it be one that has so much to do with gold coinage? I submit as evidence this exchange between I think Cuddy & Angua: "Is it true what they say about Dwarfs loving gold?" "Nah, we just say that to get it into bed!" Ok, more like strong hearsay, but the point still stands!
**** Or, mebbe it's just a case of CharacterizationMarchesOn, for an entire race. Or it could just be a case of Scotch (or Sherry; not too sure what Pratchett prefers).

to:

*** ** That and it explains perfectly why he never got any replies back from them, and why his adopted father was keen on getting him to Ankh-Morpork. He just doesn't have the built-in dwarf gender-radar they have.
*** ** Dwarfs don't have "gender-radar" either. It's noted a few times that a large part of dwarf courtship consists of figuring out, very tactfully, what sex the other dwarf actually is, and once they're married, everyone else stops caring and just assumes the two of them know which is which. It wouldn't be beyond the possibility for there to have been a number of entirely-accidental same-sex dwarf marriages.
*** ** I've seen a couple of British TV shows that have had male characters nicknamed Minty.
*** ** Getting back to the 2nd ** subpoint, if ever there was a Dwarf name associated with femininity, wouldn't it be one that has so much to do with gold coinage? I submit as evidence this exchange between I think Cuddy & Angua: "Is it true what they say about Dwarfs loving gold?" "Nah, we just say that to get it into bed!" Ok, more like strong hearsay, but the point still stands!
**** ** Or, mebbe it's just a case of CharacterizationMarchesOn, for an entire race. Or it could just be a case of Scotch (or Sherry; not too sure what Pratchett prefers).



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Gloria]]



*** It's also heavily implied that the dwarf society in Copperhead (where Carrot is from) is noticeably more liberal than that of Uberwald (where Cheery is from) - perhaps Cheery's initial appearance was even more gender neutral (or even implied masculine) than Carrot had previously been used to.

to:

*** ** It's also heavily implied that the dwarf society in Copperhead (where Carrot is from) is noticeably more liberal than that of Uberwald (where Cheery is from) - perhaps Cheery's initial appearance was even more gender neutral (or even implied masculine) than Carrot had previously been used to.



*** Gloria was captain of the school basketball team. Presumably she had to change into her sport uniform in the same locker room as her teammates, so unless her plaited beard was ''really long'' this wouldn't work.
*** You think that a top-notch boarding school like this one wouldn't have separate changing rooms for at least the more modest girls?

to:

*** ** Gloria was captain of the school basketball team. Presumably she had to change into her sport uniform in the same locker room as her teammates, so unless her plaited beard was ''really long'' this wouldn't work.
*** ** You think that a top-notch boarding school like this one wouldn't have separate changing rooms for at least the more modest girls?




[[/folder]]

[[folder:Library of Ephebe]]



*** Yeah, but if they were that numerous it would have taken much longer for Brutha to look at them all.
**** Brutha explicitly didn't look at them all. He asks how many really important scrolls there are and the younger librarian tries to say "all of them" but is overruled by the more sensible one. And he was literally just looking, not reading at all, so the question is how quickly two people working together can get down important scrolls, open them and toss them aside.
***** Well, assume it takes three seconds to unroll a scroll completely, have Brutha look at it, and get it off the table... assuming they're all short enough that they ''could'' have them completely unrolled and Brutha could see the whole thing. That's still only two hundred ''scrolls'' in ten minutes. If a book is twenty scrolls (which I find entirely credible) it'll take twenty times as long to do that book, a minute or so. He couldn't do many of those without running out of time.

to:

*** ** Yeah, but if they were that numerous it would have taken much longer for Brutha to look at them all.
**** ** Brutha explicitly didn't look at them all. He asks how many really important scrolls there are and the younger librarian tries to say "all of them" but is overruled by the more sensible one. And he was literally just looking, not reading at all, so the question is how quickly two people working together can get down important scrolls, open them and toss them aside.
***** ** Well, assume it takes three seconds to unroll a scroll completely, have Brutha look at it, and get it off the table... assuming they're all short enough that they ''could'' have them completely unrolled and Brutha could see the whole thing. That's still only two hundred ''scrolls'' in ten minutes. If a book is twenty scrolls (which I find entirely credible) it'll take twenty times as long to do that book, a minute or so. He couldn't do many of those without running out of time.



*** That's probably true, but the library ''also'' seems to be physically large (in terms of space dedicated to scrolls, not just, for example, open area with tables and stuff), from the descriptions.
**** L-Space. It's well-established in Discworld lore that the interiors of libraries are fluid. Very fluid.
**** There were probably a lot of things other than documents in the library's collection, too. What ancient cultures called a "library" was often more like what we'd call a "museum", with artwork and cultural artifacts and minerals and so on.
**** They probably kept multiple copies of many texts, too. There's no printing technology in Ephebe, so if the Library loses its only copy of an important manuscript, they can't exactly drop by the local bookstore for a replacement: having spares would be a vital precaution against torn scrolls, spilled ouzo, etc.
**** Before the printing revolution a "library" was basically either an archive of buissness transactions, which the Library of Ephebe obviously isn't, or a place set aside for more than ONE book. Nobs would be very entitled to brag about having an extensive "library" of 20-something books, each unique volume would represent years of skilled labor by a scribe/illustrator. In a pre-printing world 700 books is, indeed, massive.

to:

*** ** That's probably true, but the library ''also'' seems to be physically large (in terms of space dedicated to scrolls, not just, for example, open area with tables and stuff), from the descriptions.
**** ** L-Space. It's well-established in Discworld lore that the interiors of libraries are fluid. Very fluid.
**** ** There were probably a lot of things other than documents in the library's collection, too. What ancient cultures called a "library" was often more like what we'd call a "museum", with artwork and cultural artifacts and minerals and so on.
**** ** They probably kept multiple copies of many texts, too. There's no printing technology in Ephebe, so if the Library loses its only copy of an important manuscript, they can't exactly drop by the local bookstore for a replacement: having spares would be a vital precaution against torn scrolls, spilled ouzo, etc.
**** ** Before the printing revolution a "library" was basically either an archive of buissness transactions, which the Library of Ephebe obviously isn't, or a place set aside for more than ONE book. Nobs would be very entitled to brag about having an extensive "library" of 20-something books, each unique volume would represent years of skilled labor by a scribe/illustrator. In a pre-printing world 700 books is, indeed, massive.
massive.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Eskarina's children]]



*** What? No, a sourceror is the eighth son of an eighth son of an eighth son, I know that. They're referred to as "wizard's squared", I'm just wondering if they'd be more potent if ''both sides'' were eighth children of eighth children.
**** Eskarina is a wizard, yet she is the eighth '''daughter''' of an eighth son. of course thinking about it, that really stuffs the whole system up since it raises the issue of whether daughters count at all three levels, or just at the top two or just at the middle one. Also Nanny Ogg doesn't seem to have berthed a Sourcerer/ess (I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned, and she seems to have had a dozen or more kids), which raises some big questions over the differences between witch and wizard 'magic' genetics.
**** Genetics have nothing to do with it. It's the ''narrative'', and the ''narrative'' says that the eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard. But language is a funny thing, so "son" ends up being more ambiguous.
**** Whatever it was, it would destroy the universe.
***** I believe that the Eighth Child of an Eighth Sourcerer would be a Greater Author, with raw Creation and Narrativium radiating from them.
****** How would an Eighth Sourcerer work, exactly? Would that require Esk to have eight "Eighth Childs". Would that mean that it would have to be the 64th child of Esk or the last one to be delivered in a Octupling birth?

to:

*** ** What? No, a sourceror is the eighth son of an eighth son of an eighth son, I know that. They're referred to as "wizard's squared", I'm just wondering if they'd be more potent if ''both sides'' were eighth children of eighth children.
**** ** Eskarina is a wizard, yet she is the eighth '''daughter''' of an eighth son. of course thinking about it, that really stuffs the whole system up since it raises the issue of whether daughters count at all three levels, or just at the top two or just at the middle one. Also Nanny Ogg doesn't seem to have berthed birthed a Sourcerer/ess (I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned, and she seems to have had a dozen or more kids), which raises some big questions over the differences between witch and wizard 'magic' genetics.
**** ** Genetics have nothing to do with it. It's the ''narrative'', and the ''narrative'' says that the eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard. But language is a funny thing, so "son" ends up being more ambiguous.
**** ** Whatever it was, it would destroy the universe.
***** ** I believe that the Eighth Child of an Eighth Sourcerer would be a Greater Author, with raw Creation and Narrativium radiating from them.
****** ** How would an Eighth Sourcerer work, exactly? Would that require Esk to have eight "Eighth Childs". Would that mean that it would have to be the 64th child of Esk or the last one to be delivered in a Octupling birth?



*** Wizards can, in fact, reproduce. As shown in Equal Rites and Sourcery. The main reason that they're told not to is so that Sourcerers won't be born (The eighth son of an eighth son of an eighth son is a Sourcerer, the eighth son of an eighth son is always a wizard. As such wizards must have families in order for a sourcerer to be born.)
*** My theory is that the whole magic/sex incompatibility Cutwell demonstrated wasn't because it was some kind of fundemental law, but a combination of two factors: 1) he just wasn't able to concentrate as well, and 2) he ''believed'' wizards don't have sex, and belief is a powerful force on the Disc.
*** It's a law, but it's a law of the university rather than a fundamental law of the universe. WordOfGod says "It was fear of sourcerors that led the insistence on celibacy among wizards. Celibacy has no physical effect on magical ability, otherwise Nanny Ogg would be a washerwoman." Not to mention that Rincewind has had sex, if you count the first few books as canon. (Which I do, except the bits that are directly contradicted by later books.)
**** He's ''Rincewind''. He has no magical ability to lose in the first place.
***** But it's made clear more than once that he still counts as a wizard (for some reason).
***** He qualifies (just barely) because he can see octarine.
***** He doesn't qualify as a wizard because he can see octarine. He can see octarine because he's a wizard. He ''is'' a wizard; it's said in many of the books that competence is not an issue, even to Rincewind. So it's probably not an issue to the narrative causality which allows wizards to see octarine, either. Wizard = octarine, not 'magic user'.Uh
*** Lettice Earwig is married to a wizard who gave up his hat, if I remember my "Sea and Little Fishes" rightly. I think it's also mentioned briefly in ''Hat Full of Sky''.
**** Yes, and Mr. Earwig's retirement is briefly mentioned at the beginning of ''Unseen Academicals'', when Ridcully (enraged that the Dean quit) claims it's the same as if Earwig has died.
*** There's another universe mentioned in ''Lords and Ladies'' that suggests that Granny Weatherwax could have ended up married (quite happily) to Archchancellor Ridcully, if she had been ''slightly'' less proud (or at least humble enough to not play hard-to-get so well). Moreover, while an eighth son of an eighth son will become a wizard, there's nothing that states that every wizard ''has'' to be the eighth son of an eighth son. It apparently just takes the right mindset (as does witching).
*** Note that the first ''competent'' wizard to appear in the series, Greicha of the Wyrmberg, had three children.
*** ''Sourcery'' makes it fairly clear that while fear of sourcerers ''is'' the real reason why wizards are celibate this was largely forgotten outside the most powerful wizards, so standards were probably a bit more relaxed before the appearance of Coin.
**** Didn't ''Discworld/NightWatch'' mention something that indicates they DO have condoms on the disc?
***** ''Discworld/TheFifthElephant'' was the book that made a big deal about them, as one of the more famous manufacturers, Sonky, was related to the plot.
****** My question remains: Why don't wizards just go and use them? Worries about, err, thaumarturgic waste?
**** As said before, celibacy has just become sort of the tradition with Wizards. Sorta like how in Roundworld, celibacy of priests began as a way to stem corruption, but has been in place so long it's become part of just How Things Are Done.
***** Actually, the whole Priestly Celibacy issue (or rather, the lack thereof, hah. That was a Pune, or play on words, [[DontExplainTheJoke about genealogy charts mentioning "no issue"]]), came about because the Church wanted to stop the losses of Its holdings to the legal inheritance of the closest living relative.

to:

*** ** Wizards can, in fact, reproduce. As shown in Equal Rites and Sourcery. The main reason that they're told not to is so that Sourcerers won't be born (The eighth son of an eighth son of an eighth son is a Sourcerer, the eighth son of an eighth son is always a wizard. As such wizards must have families in order for a sourcerer to be born.)
*** ** My theory is that the whole magic/sex incompatibility Cutwell demonstrated wasn't because it was some kind of fundemental law, but a combination of two factors: 1) he just wasn't able to concentrate as well, and 2) he ''believed'' wizards don't have sex, and belief is a powerful force on the Disc.
*** ** It's a law, but it's a law of the university rather than a fundamental law of the universe. WordOfGod says "It was fear of sourcerors that led the insistence on celibacy among wizards. Celibacy has no physical effect on magical ability, otherwise Nanny Ogg would be a washerwoman." Not to mention that Rincewind has had sex, if you count the first few books as canon. (Which I do, except the bits that are directly contradicted by later books.)
**** ** He's ''Rincewind''. He has no magical ability to lose in the first place.
***** ** But it's made clear more than once that he still counts as a wizard (for some reason).
***** ** He qualifies (just barely) because he can see octarine.
***** ** He doesn't qualify as a wizard because he can see octarine. He can see octarine because he's a wizard. He ''is'' a wizard; it's said in many of the books that competence is not an issue, even to Rincewind. So it's probably not an issue to the narrative causality which allows wizards to see octarine, either. Wizard = octarine, not 'magic user'.Uh
*** ** Lettice Earwig is married to a wizard who gave up his hat, if I remember my "Sea and Little Fishes" rightly. I think it's also mentioned briefly in ''Hat Full of Sky''.
**** ** Yes, and Mr. Earwig's retirement is briefly mentioned at the beginning of ''Unseen Academicals'', when Ridcully (enraged that the Dean quit) claims it's the same as if Earwig has died.
*** ** There's another universe mentioned in ''Lords and Ladies'' that suggests that Granny Weatherwax could have ended up married (quite happily) to Archchancellor Ridcully, if she had been ''slightly'' less proud (or at least humble enough to not play hard-to-get so well). Moreover, while an eighth son of an eighth son will become a wizard, there's nothing that states that every wizard ''has'' to be the eighth son of an eighth son. It apparently just takes the right mindset (as does witching).
*** ** Note that the first ''competent'' wizard to appear in the series, Greicha of the Wyrmberg, had three children.
*** ** ''Sourcery'' makes it fairly clear that while fear of sourcerers ''is'' the real reason why wizards are celibate this was largely forgotten outside the most powerful wizards, so standards were probably a bit more relaxed before the appearance of Coin.
**** ** Didn't ''Discworld/NightWatch'' mention something that indicates they DO have condoms on the disc?
***** ** ''Discworld/TheFifthElephant'' was the book that made a big deal about them, as one of the more famous manufacturers, Sonky, was related to the plot.
****** ** My question remains: Why don't wizards just go and use them? Worries about, err, thaumarturgic waste?
**** ** As said before, celibacy has just become sort of the tradition with Wizards. Sorta like how in Roundworld, celibacy of priests began as a way to stem corruption, but has been in place so long it's become part of just How Things Are Done.
***** ** Actually, the whole Priestly Celibacy issue (or rather, the lack thereof, hah. That was a Pune, or play on words, [[DontExplainTheJoke about genealogy charts mentioning "no issue"]]), came about because the Church wanted to stop the losses of Its holdings to the legal inheritance of the closest living relative.



*** It wouldn't. Happen, that is. The eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard, full stop. Even a wizzard like Rincewind knows he is a wizard. That's just Discworld magic and the power of Narrative Causality.

to:

*** ** It wouldn't. Happen, that is. The eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard, full stop. Even a wizzard like Rincewind knows he is a wizard. That's just Discworld magic and the power of Narrative Causality.



*** And we now know that she has, indeed, at least one son. Who apparently needs protection from something. It is possible that her having him was frowned upon in certain circles.
**** Would Esk need to have eight children/sons? Thinking logically (and using the word logically very loosely and probably wrongly) and disregarding gender for the moment, if a sourcerer is a "wizard squared", then if two wizards have a child (wizard x wizard) would the child be a sourcerer?
**** Probably not, otherwise Krull (which allows both male and female wizards) would've produced a sourcerer and conquered the world by now.
*** Wizards are celibate because they basically go from clueless, spotty, stuffy, geeky, students straight to stuffy, slighty-deranged, over-bearing, arrogant, fat old men (due to the university diet and multi-lunches). They don't have opportunity to have sex, at least if there is a rule about celibacy they can claim they chose it. Those few wiz(z)ards that get the opportunity just treat the rule as a guideline, in the finest UU tradition.
*** I think that that was subtly pointed out in ''Unseen Academicals'' as well.

to:

*** ** And we now know that she has, indeed, at least one son. Who apparently needs protection from something. It is possible that her having him was frowned upon in certain circles.
**** ** Would Esk need to have eight children/sons? Thinking logically (and using the word logically very loosely and probably wrongly) and disregarding gender for the moment, if a sourcerer is a "wizard squared", then if two wizards have a child (wizard x wizard) would the child be a sourcerer?
**** ** Probably not, otherwise Krull (which allows both male and female wizards) would've produced a sourcerer and conquered the world by now.
*** ** Wizards are celibate because they basically go from clueless, spotty, stuffy, geeky, students straight to stuffy, slighty-deranged, over-bearing, arrogant, fat old men (due to the university diet and multi-lunches). They don't have opportunity to have sex, at least if there is a rule about celibacy they can claim they chose it. Those few wiz(z)ards that get the opportunity just treat the rule as a guideline, in the finest UU tradition.
*** ** I think that that was subtly pointed out in ''Unseen Academicals'' as well.
well.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Witches and their importance]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Languages]]



*** There does seem to be an "official" Borogravian language; at least, Vimes tries to use one to impress Polly. That said, it's not unusual for countries to have an official language that simply goes unspoken by most people. And, of course, it may just be that so many words were declared to be Abominations Unto Nuggan that they just started using Morporkian to get around having to feel bad whenever they referred to their bum/uncle/sandwich.
*** In ''Discworld/{{Snuff}}'', there's a telling point where the Quirmian (French) gendarmes reveal that they all speak Morporkian but elect to use Quirmian among themselves as their first language. This makes Discworld "French" a language rather like Welsh on our world: people use "Morporkian/English" to communicate with the wider world, as the disparity betwen the two is so impossibly huge that nothing else is possible. (English: spoken by billions worldwide; Welsh -- spoken to varying degrees of fluency by half a million in a relatively confined geographical area). Speakers of the minority language may be militant and bloody-minded as to their right to speak it -- think modern Wales. And another good parellel to Quirm is Quebec, the thriving survival of French in North America. Try speaking English there, outside Montreal, and see how far you get. But the Quirmians, like the Welsh, speak their own language among themselves whilst being able to ''listen in Morporkian'', as has been said about Discworld dwarfs. Morporkian must be the English of the discworld, the common tongue. However, it also has its Chinese/Japanese competitor (Agatean) and its Arabic/Persian/Hindu (Klatchian) as serious linguistic rivals. Everything else, including "French", does appear to be a bit of a Welsh -- a minority language spoken only in its own small area.
**** Morporkian is Discworld's Lingua Quirmia?

to:

*** ** There does seem to be an "official" Borogravian language; at least, Vimes tries to use one to impress Polly. That said, it's not unusual for countries to have an official language that simply goes unspoken by most people. And, of course, it may just be that so many words were declared to be Abominations Unto Nuggan that they just started using Morporkian to get around having to feel bad whenever they referred to their bum/uncle/sandwich.
*** ** In ''Discworld/{{Snuff}}'', there's a telling point where the Quirmian (French) gendarmes reveal that they all speak Morporkian but elect to use Quirmian among themselves as their first language. This makes Discworld "French" a language rather like Welsh on our world: people use "Morporkian/English" to communicate with the wider world, as the disparity betwen the two is so impossibly huge that nothing else is possible. (English: spoken by billions worldwide; Welsh -- spoken to varying degrees of fluency by half a million in a relatively confined geographical area). Speakers of the minority language may be militant and bloody-minded as to their right to speak it -- think modern Wales. And another good parellel to Quirm is Quebec, the thriving survival of French in North America. Try speaking English there, outside Montreal, and see how far you get. But the Quirmians, like the Welsh, speak their own language among themselves whilst being able to ''listen in Morporkian'', as has been said about Discworld dwarfs. Morporkian must be the English of the discworld, the common tongue. However, it also has its Chinese/Japanese competitor (Agatean) and its Arabic/Persian/Hindu (Klatchian) as serious linguistic rivals. Everything else, including "French", does appear to be a bit of a Welsh -- a minority language spoken only in its own small area.
**** ** Morporkian is Discworld's Lingua Quirmia?
Quirmia?

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Werewolves and undead]]



*** Werewolves' traits and abilities vary quite a bit. It's likely that only some are contagious.

to:

*** ** Werewolves' traits and abilities vary quite a bit. It's likely that only some are contagious.



*** I am British, and lives in an area where racists (culturalists?) specifically make the distinction between Pakistanis and Indians even... never mind other racial appearances. So not a great example!

to:

*** ** I am British, and lives in an area where racists (culturalists?) specifically make the distinction between Pakistanis and Indians even... never mind other racial appearances. So not a great example!



--->"Iím more what you might call honorary undead," said Lupine.

to:

--->"Iím --->"I'm more what you might call honorary undead," said Lupine.
Lupine.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Twoflower and Grand Viziers]]



*** It seems inevitable Twoflower would become the number 2 guy. Cohen knows the man led a revolution against the power structure. Keep your enemies closer and all that. Relatedly, he trusts Rincewind and Rincewind trusts Twoflower. Cohen is smart and can figure that out.

to:

*** ** It seems inevitable Twoflower would become the number 2 guy. Cohen knows the man led a revolution against the power structure. Keep your enemies closer and all that. Relatedly, he trusts Rincewind and Rincewind trusts Twoflower. Cohen is smart and can figure that out.



*** That would be awesome!
*** Unless Cohen and the concubines found any time to themselves, cough cough. It's established that the barbarians, despite their age, are so experienced as to physically out perform far younger people, and it's mentioned that one of the younger noblewomen finds herself oddly attracted to Cohen's lion-like musk...
*** By that argument, ''Conina'' could have a claim to the imperial throne. A barbarian hairdresser empress?
**** She's probably not his only kid though, and he probably didn't think about telling her (she didn't give the appearance of having had much interaction with him).
*** She's definitely not his only kid. In ''Discworld/TheLastHero'' he mentions that he's got at least a half-dozen or so.

to:

*** ** That would be awesome!
*** ** Unless Cohen and the concubines found any time to themselves, cough cough. It's established that the barbarians, despite their age, are so experienced as to physically out perform far younger people, and it's mentioned that one of the younger noblewomen finds herself oddly attracted to Cohen's lion-like musk...
*** ** By that argument, ''Conina'' could have a claim to the imperial throne. A barbarian hairdresser empress?
**** ** She's probably not his only kid though, and he probably didn't think about telling her (she didn't give the appearance of having had much interaction with him).
*** ** She's definitely not his only kid. In ''Discworld/TheLastHero'' he mentions that he's got at least a half-dozen or so.



*** Given what the scheme was, he might have been just worried (rightfully) that it was going to do some serious damage to the rest of the world.
*** Regardless of the motivation, the end result is that he betrayed/rebelled against his ruler, and the scheme he set in motion indirectly ''lead to the ruler's death.'' So narrative causality has twisted Twoflower into the traditional role of "evil" grand visier, even with every individual act and every individual motivation in the sequence being arguably "good". That's what narrativium does in Discworld.
**** Except that Cohen is already 'evil' (well ignorant), so betraying him to save the world would be...not so evil, maybe.
*** That's the beauty of the thing: narrativium ''can'' be beaten, but it is easier for it to be twisted. And what is the easiest way to twist the [[EvilChancellor Evil Grand Vizier that betrays his liege]] trope? Making the betrayal a logical consequence of the Grand Vizier being a ''[[TheGoodChancellor Good]]'' Chancellor, of course! As it says above, Twoflower has followed the traditional path of the 'evil' grand vizier, betraying his monarch and at least to some degree usurping his power... but since he is such a fundamentally nice guy, to get that result the entire situation became one where the betraying, usurping Grand Vizier was ''doing the right thing'' and saving the world.

to:

*** ** Given what the scheme was, he might have been just worried (rightfully) that it was going to do some serious damage to the rest of the world.
*** ** Regardless of the motivation, the end result is that he betrayed/rebelled against his ruler, and the scheme he set in motion indirectly ''lead to the ruler's death.'' So narrative causality has twisted Twoflower into the traditional role of "evil" grand visier, even with every individual act and every individual motivation in the sequence being arguably "good". That's what narrativium does in Discworld.
**** ** Except that Cohen is already 'evil' (well ignorant), so betraying him to save the world would be...not so evil, maybe.
*** ** That's the beauty of the thing: narrativium ''can'' be beaten, but it is easier for it to be twisted. And what is the easiest way to twist the [[EvilChancellor Evil Grand Vizier that betrays his liege]] trope? Making the betrayal a logical consequence of the Grand Vizier being a ''[[TheGoodChancellor Good]]'' Chancellor, of course! As it says above, Twoflower has followed the traditional path of the 'evil' grand vizier, betraying his monarch and at least to some degree usurping his power... but since he is such a fundamentally nice guy, to get that result the entire situation became one where the betraying, usurping Grand Vizier was ''doing the right thing'' and saving the world.
world.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ankh-Morpork size]]



*** ...And so on. Before the industrialized world, city-states ''were'' powerful, hence why they're called "city-''states''"
*** Ankh-Morpork imports cabbage. It mostly exports finished goods by transforming raw materials into just about anything a craftsman can make.

to:

*** ...** ...And so on. Before the industrialized world, city-states ''were'' powerful, hence why they're called "city-''states''"
*** ** Ankh-Morpork imports cabbage. It mostly exports finished goods by transforming raw materials into just about anything a craftsman can make.



*** This. It's outright ''stated'' that Ankh-Morpork isn't powerful due to force, it's powerful because if you cross them they will call in your mortgages, bribe your friends and buy out your army from under you. They conquered the world through force once (Tacticus et all), made themselves the trading centre of the entire disc, then let the rest of the world go because economic dominance is so much less hassle.
*** [[CrowningMomentOfFunny "Let others boast of martial dash, for we have boldly fought with cash. We own all your helmets, we own all your shoes, we own all your generals, touch us and you'll lose."]]
*** Ankh-Morpork is similar to Florence or Venice during Renaissance - a small city-state with a massive influence due to massive trade-connections.

to:

*** ** This. It's outright ''stated'' that Ankh-Morpork isn't powerful due to force, it's powerful because if you cross them they will call in your mortgages, bribe your friends and buy out your army from under you. They conquered the world through force once (Tacticus et all), made themselves the trading centre of the entire disc, then let the rest of the world go because economic dominance is so much less hassle.
*** ** [[CrowningMomentOfFunny "Let others boast of martial dash, for we have boldly fought with cash. We own all your helmets, we own all your shoes, we own all your generals, touch us and you'll lose."]]
*** ** Ankh-Morpork is similar to Florence or Venice during Renaissance - a small city-state with a massive influence due to massive trade-connections.
trade-connections.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Annagramma's money]]



*** There is a guild of conjurers, so it's apparently ok to do stage magic as long as you make it very clear you aren't doing actual magic.

to:

*** ** There is a guild of conjurers, so it's apparently ok to do stage magic as long as you make it very clear you aren't doing actual magic.




[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ankh-Morpork's population]]



*** Can't store anything in the Pork Future warehouse - the pork futures already hog up (ha!) all the space.
*** That's not what was implied - it was stated that Ankh-Morpork has the ''ability'' to refrigerate food. No one said the food was actually stored inside the Pork Future warehouses.
**** That extreme cold is actually a byproduct of the slabs of meat in porktentia. It's not a case of the not-yet-pork being kept cold by the warehouse, but of the speculative pork's magical energies keep the warehouse cold.

to:

*** ** Can't store anything in the Pork Future warehouse - the pork futures already hog up (ha!) all the space.
*** ** That's not what was implied - it was stated that Ankh-Morpork has the ''ability'' to refrigerate food. No one said the food was actually stored inside the Pork Future warehouses.
**** ** That extreme cold is actually a byproduct of the slabs of meat in porktentia. It's not a case of the not-yet-pork being kept cold by the warehouse, but of the speculative pork's magical energies keep the warehouse cold.



*** Not to mention that a dietary staple (rats) for the city's largest minority (dwarfs) is indigenous to the city itself.
*** And the dietary staple (rocks) for its second largest minority (trolls) only goes bad on a geological time-scale.
*** Even the humans can rest assured that their eggs and dairy products will be delivered fresh, provided they [[Discworld/ThiefOfTime have the right milkman]].

to:

*** ** Not to mention that a dietary staple (rats) for the city's largest minority (dwarfs) is indigenous to the city itself.
*** ** And the dietary staple (rocks) for its second largest minority (trolls) only goes bad on a geological time-scale.
*** ** Even the humans can rest assured that their eggs and dairy products will be delivered fresh, provided they [[Discworld/ThiefOfTime have the right milkman]].



**** The key error in this question is "planned". Why should it have to be planned? The city evolved, building on top of itself, and the infrastructure evolved with it. The city couldn't grow beyond the ability of the infrastructure to support it, though may have reached a precarious point where a shock to the system could upset things. See ''Discworld/NightWatch'' where Reg starts talking about planning food distribution through People's Warehouses, adding what is shown to be an unnecessary level of planning, and where the Revolution is shown to put a spanner in the works of the city of 30 years ago. If you don't believe this is possible without planning, go and read the Science of Discworld series and concetrate on the bits about emergent phenomena.
*** Remember what Creator/TerryPratchett said about how the Disk is "at the far end of the probability curve" and is mostly held together by belief? People beleive that their food will come in somehow, so it does, somehow. If they were to think too hard about it, the waveform would collapse and they would all die.
*** If someone's willing to buy the food, people will be willing to get it there. It's not necessarily a flawless system, but when money talks, people listen.
**** It's stated, I think it's in ''Night Watch,'' that Ankh-Morpork is actually bigger than just the city within the walls, referred to elsewhere as its fiefdom; there are huge fields and farms outside the actual city that belong to Ankh-Morpork, and provide it with much of the food and essentials it needs. The Morporkians do have to trade, barter and buy a lot of stuff from other countries to feed the entire population (and to get certain things that for various reasons aren't easily available in their part of the world), but they don't rely solely on other nations to get what they need.
***** It's probably worth observing that London had a population of one million in 1800. Ankh-Morpork, broadly speaking, has that technology level and a comparable geogrpahical situation.
*** And although ''The Colour Of Magic'' does give the impression of a crime-ridden hellhole, that book's events within the city are nearly all confined to the dockyards and the Broken Drum. Less-squalid areas are mentioned in passing (e.g. Ankh is implied to be upper-class), they're just not the sort of neighborhood Twoflower came to the city to look at.

to:

**** ** The key error in this question is "planned". Why should it have to be planned? The city evolved, building on top of itself, and the infrastructure evolved with it. The city couldn't grow beyond the ability of the infrastructure to support it, though may have reached a precarious point where a shock to the system could upset things. See ''Discworld/NightWatch'' where Reg starts talking about planning food distribution through People's Warehouses, adding what is shown to be an unnecessary level of planning, and where the Revolution is shown to put a spanner in the works of the city of 30 years ago. If you don't believe this is possible without planning, go and read the Science of Discworld series and concetrate on the bits about emergent phenomena.
*** ** Remember what Creator/TerryPratchett said about how the Disk is "at the far end of the probability curve" and is mostly held together by belief? People beleive that their food will come in somehow, so it does, somehow. If they were to think too hard about it, the waveform would collapse and they would all die.
*** ** If someone's willing to buy the food, people will be willing to get it there. It's not necessarily a flawless system, but when money talks, people listen.
**** ** It's stated, I think it's in ''Night Watch,'' that Ankh-Morpork is actually bigger than just the city within the walls, referred to elsewhere as its fiefdom; there are huge fields and farms outside the actual city that belong to Ankh-Morpork, and provide it with much of the food and essentials it needs. The Morporkians do have to trade, barter and buy a lot of stuff from other countries to feed the entire population (and to get certain things that for various reasons aren't easily available in their part of the world), but they don't rely solely on other nations to get what they need.
***** ** It's probably worth observing that London had a population of one million in 1800. Ankh-Morpork, broadly speaking, has that technology level and a comparable geogrpahical situation.
*** ** And although ''The Colour Of Magic'' does give the impression of a crime-ridden hellhole, that book's events within the city are nearly all confined to the dockyards and the Broken Drum. Less-squalid areas are mentioned in passing (e.g. Ankh is implied to be upper-class), they're just not the sort of neighborhood Twoflower came to the city to look at.



*** In one of the earlier Watch books (I forget which) it is said people on first arriving in the city ask how it keeps going, what is the basis of its civic economy and so on, given it has a river you can chew they would ask where the water comes from. The question is not really answered, and in fact the text notes people ''should'' be asking that but instead tend to seek out the ladies of negotiable affection. I guess, as several notes above, it people don't think about it, arrangements are made.
*** On a related note, regarding where the water comes from given that the Ankh is 'chewable' (although no one on the right mind would want to do so), I reasoned that they had a similar solution as early Venice, (which also had water supply problems given that it's built on a salt marsh) and relied on rain water collection (which I'm pretty sure is refered to in canon at some point), plus wells and possibly underground streams, the existance of both of which is supported by canon.

to:

*** ** In one of the earlier Watch books (I forget which) it is said people on first arriving in the city ask how it keeps going, what is the basis of its civic economy and so on, given it has a river you can chew they would ask where the water comes from. The question is not really answered, and in fact the text notes people ''should'' be asking that but instead tend to seek out the ladies of negotiable affection. I guess, as several notes above, it people don't think about it, arrangements are made.
*** ** On a related note, regarding where the water comes from given that the Ankh is 'chewable' (although no one on the right mind would want to do so), I reasoned that they had a similar solution as early Venice, (which also had water supply problems given that it's built on a salt marsh) and relied on rain water collection (which I'm pretty sure is refered to in canon at some point), plus wells and possibly underground streams, the existance of both of which is supported by canon.



*** Ah, yes. It's past the Post Office, 200 yards down, and then widdershins at the lights.

to:

*** ** Ah, yes. It's past the Post Office, 200 yards down, and then widdershins at the lights.
lights.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Carrot's powers outside of Ankh-Morpork]]



*** It's also mentioned in ''Jingo'' that countries are "always flogging spare royalty off each other". He's probably nearly as closely related to Klatchian royalty as his Morporkian ancestors, and if it's already established that royalty is transferrable across countries, then even if it was area-dependent why wouldn't it work in Klatch?
** Beause when he's in Klatch, he's Lawrence of Arabia.
*** Don't you mean he's that guy from ''Shadowe of the Dessert''?

to:

*** ** It's also mentioned in ''Jingo'' that countries are "always flogging spare royalty off each other". He's probably nearly as closely related to Klatchian royalty as his Morporkian ancestors, and if it's already established that royalty is transferrable across countries, then even if it was area-dependent why wouldn't it work in Klatch?
** Beause Because when he's in Klatch, he's Lawrence of Arabia.
*** ** Don't you mean he's that guy from ''Shadowe of the Dessert''?



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Guild of Merchants]]



*** Exactly. It's mentioned more than once that people don't (usually) conspire against Vetinari or otherwise rock the boat because the resultant disorder would just make things worse. This, one imagines, is especially true with commerce.

to:

*** ** Exactly. It's mentioned more than once that people don't (usually) conspire against Vetinari or otherwise rock the boat because the resultant disorder would just make things worse. This, one imagines, is especially true with commerce.



*** Let us not forget that the aforementioned Mr. Parker did show up at last (where we could see him) during a council meeting in ''Making Money''.

to:

*** ** Let us not forget that the aforementioned Mr. Parker did show up at last (where we could see him) during a council meeting in ''Making Money''.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Witches as Mafia]]



*** Mind you, the comparison does make sense. There is no leader of the Mafia, because the Mafia does not exist. Without the organisation, there can be no leader, and Don Corleone is the leader they do not have. Absolutely ''nothing like'' the situation with Granny Weatherwax.

to:

*** ** Mind you, the comparison does make sense. There is no leader of the Mafia, because the Mafia does not exist. Without the organisation, there can be no leader, and Don Corleone is the leader they do not have. Absolutely ''nothing like'' the situation with Granny Weatherwax.
Weatherwax.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Dwarf females and immigrants]]



*** Granted, but there are still activities on the Disc that are very clearly Male Human activities. Theatre, for example. Hwel seems to be more ashamed of not loving gold than he is about being in the theatre business. Soldiering. Being part of the Watch (Cuddy and Angua showed up at the same time; we're led to believe that, until that point, there'd been no female Watchmen).
**** Dwarfs have theatre, opera and policemen as well. They don't have women's work, and therefore there is no feminine culture.
***** Also, the more conservative grags are opposed to ''any'' dwarf living above ground. Obviously there are too many dwarfs living above ground for them to matter much. Prejudice isn't logical, but after a few generations of "normalcy" the reasons for prejudice generally fade away, though of course, never completely.
*** Since when does "not feminine" mean the same as "masculine"? Drinking beer, swinging an axe, and singing about gold isn't acting like a man, it's acting like a ''dwarf''. It just so happens that the male humans are typically a bit more dwarfish than the female ones.
**** Exactly. Breathing or enjoying a cheeseburger is no more a male/female human action than quaffing is for dwarves.

to:

*** ** Granted, but there are still activities on the Disc that are very clearly Male Human activities. Theatre, for example. Hwel seems to be more ashamed of not loving gold than he is about being in the theatre business. Soldiering. Being part of the Watch (Cuddy and Angua showed up at the same time; we're led to believe that, until that point, there'd been no female Watchmen).
**** ** Dwarfs have theatre, opera and policemen as well. They don't have women's work, and therefore there is no feminine culture.
***** ** Also, the more conservative grags are opposed to ''any'' dwarf living above ground. Obviously there are too many dwarfs living above ground for them to matter much. Prejudice isn't logical, but after a few generations of "normalcy" the reasons for prejudice generally fade away, though of course, never completely.
*** ** Since when does "not feminine" mean the same as "masculine"? Drinking beer, swinging an axe, and singing about gold isn't acting like a man, it's acting like a ''dwarf''. It just so happens that the male humans are typically a bit more dwarfish than the female ones.
**** ** Exactly. Breathing or enjoying a cheeseburger is no more a male/female human action than quaffing is for dwarves.



*** True- the dwarfs are essentially a culture which never got round to crystalising biological sex as a cultural instution, and, as such, distinctions based on biological sex do not necessarilly imply any great binary which dicatates social roles and patterns of behaviour. All dwarfs are gender neutral, and so they refer to themselves in a gender neutral sense, which just happens to be identical to the masculine sense in Morpokian and English, at least if we accept that "it" tends to refer to inanimate objects, or at least to non-humans, and so could be construed as offensively dehumanising, uh, dedwarfising. It's also possible that they actually don't really see human males as being particularly masculine, given that their defining characteristics are, to dwarfs, largely "dwarfy" rather than distinctly masculine. It's possible that, on an emotional level, they only really grasp human females as expressing a defined gender, and so only biologically female dwarfs (and, hypothetically, transgendered dwafs) feel encouraged to adopt any non-dwarfish characteristics.

to:

*** ** True- the dwarfs are essentially a culture which never got round to crystalising biological sex as a cultural instution, and, as such, distinctions based on biological sex do not necessarilly imply any great binary which dicatates social roles and patterns of behaviour. All dwarfs are gender neutral, and so they refer to themselves in a gender neutral sense, which just happens to be identical to the masculine sense in Morpokian and English, at least if we accept that "it" tends to refer to inanimate objects, or at least to non-humans, and so could be construed as offensively dehumanising, uh, dedwarfising. It's also possible that they actually don't really see human males as being particularly masculine, given that their defining characteristics are, to dwarfs, largely "dwarfy" rather than distinctly masculine. It's possible that, on an emotional level, they only really grasp human females as expressing a defined gender, and so only biologically female dwarfs (and, hypothetically, transgendered dwafs) feel encouraged to adopt any non-dwarfish characteristics.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thugs]]



* I have an answer for the first two Banjo was intentional but Mr. Tulips redemption was made by his [[ExecutiveMeddling editor.]]

to:

* ** I have an answer for the first two Banjo was intentional but Mr. Tulips redemption was made by his [[ExecutiveMeddling editor.]]
]]

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Dwarf and troll magic]]



*** Well, the dwarfs seem to have some sort of magic with their various 'darks'. If trolls have magic, it's likely something to do with rocks and not really comprehensible to humans. And also one or the other species likely built the Devices.
*** Probably not, as they both seem to have very complete histories, and the dwarfs at least don't know where Devices come from. For all we know, the Devices were created by a race that's long extinct.
**** Or the Creator accidentally left some widgets from his toolbox behind, same as he left the Octavo.
**** Or, of course, it doesn't matter where they came from; they are just 'devices', as in 'plot'.

to:

*** ** Well, the dwarfs seem to have some sort of magic with their various 'darks'. If trolls have magic, it's likely something to do with rocks and not really comprehensible to humans. And also one or the other species likely built the Devices.
*** ** Probably not, as they both seem to have very complete histories, and the dwarfs at least don't know where Devices come from. For all we know, the Devices were created by a race that's long extinct.
**** ** Or the Creator accidentally left some widgets from his toolbox behind, same as he left the Octavo.
**** ** Or, of course, it doesn't matter where they came from; they are just 'devices', as in 'plot'.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Eskarina's little brothers]]



** ...I'm not sure I follow this, but I think 'eighth son' is just being poetic/chauvanistic. Esk is an ''eighth child of an eighth child'', so she's a massively powerful wizard, and if she'd had a little brother he probably would also have been a wizard, but not as powerful as her. It's irrelevent, anyway, because it didn't happen, and ''Equal Rites'' was written before the Discworld was really solidified as a series.
*** How do you know it didn't happen? People keep saying things didn't happen when they can't know it didn't, it just didn't ''in the book''.
*** Guess we'll have to wait until the next generation, and see if Covetousness Carter (an eighth child) has an eighth child who's a wizard.

to:

** ...I'm not sure I follow this, but I think 'eighth son' is just being poetic/chauvanistic.poetic/chauvinistic. Esk is an ''eighth child of an eighth child'', so she's a massively powerful wizard, and if she'd had a little brother he probably would also have been a wizard, but not as powerful as her. It's irrelevent, irrelevant, anyway, because it didn't happen, and ''Equal Rites'' was written before the Discworld was really solidified as a series.
*** ** How do you know it didn't happen? People keep saying things didn't happen when they can't know it didn't, it just didn't ''in the book''.
*** ** Guess we'll have to wait until the next generation, and see if Covetousness Carter (an eighth child) has an eighth child who's a wizard.



*** It's not ''only'' eighth sons of eighth sons that become wizards. It's just that eighth sons of eighth sons are always magically talented because of the way the number 8 is significant on the Disc.
**** For the exact same reason, a ninth son of an eighth son is no more powerful or likely to become a wizard than the seventh son ''because people on the Disc don't expect them to''.
**** If peoples' expectations were the ''only'' reason why eighth sons of eighth sons became wizards, doesn't that imply that a wizard whose father is belatedly exposed as having fathered an out-of-wedlock son, making the wizard # 9 instead of # 8, could lose his powers?
**** Not if he is already a wizard see? 'cause I reckon that magical talent is not only a thing that people are born with, but also something people can get if they're stubborn enough. If an assumed 8th son of an 8th son had that fact as a motivation and became a wizard, then the revelation does nothing because he has already become a wizard, i.e. he was stubborn enough, but if he didn't became a wizard in spite of the assumption, then stands to reason it was because he wasn't actually the 8th son, nor stubborn enough. It stands to reason.

to:

*** ** It's not ''only'' eighth sons of eighth sons that become wizards. It's just that eighth sons of eighth sons are always magically talented because of the way the number 8 is significant on the Disc.
**** ** For the exact same reason, a ninth son of an eighth son is no more powerful or likely to become a wizard than the seventh son ''because people on the Disc don't expect them to''.
**** ** If peoples' expectations were the ''only'' reason why eighth sons of eighth sons became wizards, doesn't that imply that a wizard whose father is belatedly exposed as having fathered an out-of-wedlock son, making the wizard # 9 instead of # 8, could lose his powers?
**** ** Not if he is already a wizard see? 'cause I reckon that magical talent is not only a thing that people are born with, but also something people can get if they're stubborn enough. If an assumed 8th son of an 8th son had that fact as a motivation and became a wizard, then the revelation does nothing because he has already become a wizard, i.e. he was stubborn enough, but if he didn't became a wizard in spite of the assumption, then stands to reason it was because he wasn't actually the 8th son, nor stubborn enough. It stands to reason.
reason.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Rob's wives]]



*** He's one of the kelda's sons who became Big Man because of natural leadership skills, thus tapping him as best of the candidates for marriage.

to:

*** ** He's one of the kelda's sons who became Big Man because of natural leadership skills, thus tapping him as best of the candidates for marriage.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Susan and invisibility]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Guild of Gamblers]]



*** They also regulate the crooked tricks they all use, so that a match between any two Guild members is reduced back into a game of skill and chance, since both are using the exact same shaved dice/cards.

* In reply to all of the above: AWizardDidIt
** Nah, his brain would've squirted out his ears. [[AWizardDidIt A Sourceror Did It]].

to:

*** ** They also regulate the crooked tricks they all use, so that a match between any two Guild members is reduced back into a game of skill and chance, since both are using the exact same shaved dice/cards.

* In reply to all of the above: AWizardDidIt
** Nah, his brain would've squirted out his ears. [[AWizardDidIt A Sourceror Did It]].
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Troll names]]



*** [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detritus_(geology) Actually...]]

to:

*** ** [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detritus_(geology) Actually...]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Dumb is good]]



** Maybe thats what differs the background carachters from the main and minor characters. Say, a man collapses in the street. You'll usually have a crowd of people staring and/or discussing what to do ("Someone should really do something") and a few people who'll actually call an ambulance. Following those characters who do stuff when confronted with a problem is just more interesting, so the story focuses on them.

to:

** Maybe thats what differs the background carachters characters from the main and minor characters. Say, a man collapses in the street. You'll usually have a crowd of people staring and/or discussing what to do ("Someone should really do something") and a few people who'll actually call an ambulance. Following those characters who do stuff when confronted with a problem is just more interesting, so the story focuses on them.
them.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Turtle food]]



*** It was Thief Of Time actually.

to:

*** ** It was Thief Of Time actually.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Assassins and Thieves Guilds]]



*** And citizens can rest assured that Guild thieves won't ''kill'' people during a robbery, because that'd be impinging on the Assassins' Guild's territory. For example, Guild muggers attend special classes to learn how to knock a person out without causing permanent damage. Likewise, Guild assassins don't swipe stuff.

to:

*** ** And citizens can rest assured that Guild thieves won't ''kill'' people during a robbery, because that'd be impinging on the Assassins' Guild's territory. For example, Guild muggers attend special classes to learn how to knock a person out without causing permanent damage. Likewise, Guild assassins don't swipe stuff.



*** Plus it can't be a case of Aristocrats are evil, as we're told in one book no true gentleman would dream of being trained as a thief. Boggis may well be a very important member of the city ''now'', even mentioned in Feet of Clay as a potential candidate for ''Patrician'', but that's because times have changed and the Guild is an important organization for the smooth running of the city, not because any nobles are trained there.

to:

*** ** Plus it can't be a case of Aristocrats are evil, as we're told in one book no true gentleman would dream of being trained as a thief. Boggis may well be a very important member of the city ''now'', even mentioned in Feet of Clay as a potential candidate for ''Patrician'', but that's because times have changed and the Guild is an important organization for the smooth running of the city, not because any nobles are trained there.



*** Not exactly. They existed, and the crappy government never tried to do anything about them, but they weren't legally recognized.
*** You're getting them mixed up with the ''Thieves'' Guild. The Assassin's Guild still had the same "posh school to send your kids to" reputation even when Vetinari was a child and a student of the place.

to:

*** ** Not exactly. They existed, and the crappy government never tried to do anything about them, but they weren't legally recognized.
*** ** You're getting them mixed up with the ''Thieves'' Guild. The Assassin's Guild still had the same "posh school to send your kids to" reputation even when Vetinari was a child and a student of the place.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Assassins' Guild name]]



*** But does the Watch still go after the murderer then?
**** Nope. Assasins leave a chit verifying that it was official assassin business. Watch might get to check with the Guild to make sure the chit is legitimate, but they only get involved with deaths when its a non-Guild murder and the Guild can't (or won't) do anything about it. Same as the way they can't stop Thieves' Guild thievery.

to:

*** ** But does the Watch still go after the murderer then?
**** ** Nope. Assasins leave a chit verifying that it was official assassin business. Watch might get to check with the Guild to make sure the chit is legitimate, but they only get involved with deaths when its a non-Guild murder and the Guild can't (or won't) do anything about it. Same as the way they can't stop Thieves' Guild thievery.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Guild of Seamstresses name]]



*** Outnumber the genuine seamstresses? It's been established in-story that they vastly outnumber the ''sewing needles''.

to:

*** ** Outnumber the genuine seamstresses? It's been established in-story that they vastly outnumber the ''sewing needles''.



*** In one of Shakespeare's plays, he has a Bawd(or madam) referring to the ladies who board in her house as "three or four gentlewomen who make their livings by the prick of their needles".

to:

*** ** In one of Shakespeare's plays, he has a Bawd(or madam) referring to the ladies who board in her house as "three or four gentlewomen who make their livings by the prick of their needles".



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Colon's military service]]



** There's about 30 years seperating the two times of NW, so even if we put GG at 10 years before the start of NW that still gives us about 20 years to play around with. If he left with a year of the revolution, he could do 3-4 years in each regiment, and still make it to Watch Sergeant in time to appear in GG.

to:

** There's about 30 years seperating separating the two times of NW, so even if we put GG at 10 years before the start of NW that still gives us about 20 years to play around with. If he left with a year of the revolution, he could do 3-4 years in each regiment, and still make it to Watch Sergeant in time to appear in GG.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ridcully and football]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Vetinari as a fat man]]



*** Nobody ever said they couldn't have had more than one Mad Lord Fill-in-the-Blank as Patrician. The last king died sufficiently long ago that epithets like "Mad" or "Homicidal" have surely all been used several times, albeit probably no more than once a generation for each.
*** I'm fairly certain there _have_ been multiple patricians called "Mad Lord..." Snapecase has also been referred to as Psycho-Neurotic Lord Snapecase, though. [Note: previous claims about use of the word mad as a generic title are not supported by the Discworld Wiki, though three of the named patricians (and Vetinari) have no title given except Lord. There has also been at least one other never Canonically mentioned, as we hear about Olaf Quimby II but never OQ I]
**** The Patricianship isn't hereditary, though. There's no reason to assume Olaf Quimby I was Patrician just because his son was.
**** We don't use numbers after a name for anyone but royalty in Britain. This can get messy when dealing with historical records of a family with traditional/hereditary forenames, like some of the Scottish clans. You'll occasionally see senior/junior or pere/fils, but mostly you just have to suck it up.

to:

*** ** Nobody ever said they couldn't have had more than one Mad Lord Fill-in-the-Blank as Patrician. The last king died sufficiently long ago that epithets like "Mad" or "Homicidal" have surely all been used several times, albeit probably no more than once a generation for each.
*** ** I'm fairly certain there _have_ been multiple patricians called "Mad Lord..." Snapecase has also been referred to as Psycho-Neurotic Lord Snapecase, though. [Note: previous claims about use of the word mad as a generic title are not supported by the Discworld Wiki, though three of the named patricians (and Vetinari) have no title given except Lord. There has also been at least one other never Canonically mentioned, as we hear about Olaf Quimby II but never OQ I]
**** ** The Patricianship isn't hereditary, though. There's no reason to assume Olaf Quimby I was Patrician just because his son was.
**** ** We don't use numbers after a name for anyone but royalty in Britain. This can get messy when dealing with historical records of a family with traditional/hereditary forenames, like some of the Scottish clans. You'll occasionally see senior/junior or pere/fils, but mostly you just have to suck it up.
up.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Young wizards and geeks]]



*** And if not done right it can be fatal.

to:

*** ** And if not done right it can be fatal.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Margolotta and Angua]]



*** About the preciseness: It's indicated that the whole region was made up of patches of feuding countries, changing rulership, borders and names rather quickly (see middle European history for a nice round world example)."Überwald" was probably as specific as you could get, without having to change the name every three days.
*** The canonicity is questionable, but ''VideoGame/DiscworldNoir'' features a third clan of Uberwald nobility with the name von Uberwald.
*** All three families' names probably date back to the Evil Empire, which encompassed most if not all of Uberwald; hence, the lack of precision. It's likely that all three families were elevated to noble status in the first place under the Evil Emperor, who was really into monsters (see ''Unseen Academicals'').
*** As far as I know, Angua actually is her surname. Her first name is Delphine, though she's only ever referred to as such by her parents in ''Discworld/TheFifthElephant''. Calling her parents "Von Uberwald" is probably more of an honorific, just like Richard in Shakespeare's Richard III is known as "Gloucester" until he's crowned (since he's the Duke of Gloucester).

to:

*** ** About the preciseness: It's indicated that the whole region was made up of patches of feuding countries, changing rulership, borders and names rather quickly (see middle European history for a nice round world example)."Überwald" was probably as specific as you could get, without having to change the name every three days.
*** ** The canonicity is questionable, but ''VideoGame/DiscworldNoir'' features a third clan of Uberwald nobility with the name von Uberwald.
*** ** All three families' names probably date back to the Evil Empire, which encompassed most if not all of Uberwald; hence, the lack of precision. It's likely that all three families were elevated to noble status in the first place under the Evil Emperor, who was really into monsters (see ''Unseen Academicals'').
*** ** As far as I know, Angua actually is her surname. Her first name is Delphine, though she's only ever referred to as such by her parents in ''Discworld/TheFifthElephant''. Calling her parents "Von Uberwald" is probably more of an honorific, just like Richard in Shakespeare's Richard III is known as "Gloucester" until he's crowned (since he's the Duke of Gloucester).
Gloucester).

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Margolotta's accent]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Moist's suit]]



*** Which is ''exactly'' why Moist would buy another one.
**** Probably one with stains on it too, plus ripped pockets and no buttons..."yeah officer I saw this bloke, you should've seen the state of him, no buttons on his suit, all stained and I don't want to think about what was hanging out of his pocket. His face guv? Wurl...average I suppose, I don't recall really, but that suit..."

* This might be a silly question (I haven't read the books, just what TV Tropes has to say about them), but . . . Belief changes the nature of reality in Discworld. Reality there is bleaker than most characters normally realize (unless they're knurd from drinking Klatchian coffee). If the people who think it isn't bleak outnumber the people like Vimes who naturally see things as they are, how come their world hasn't become less bleak to match their beliefs?

to:

*** ** Which is ''exactly'' why Moist would buy another one.
**** ** Probably one with stains on it too, plus ripped pockets and no buttons..."yeah officer I saw this bloke, you should've seen the state of him, no buttons on his suit, all stained and I don't want to think about what was hanging out of his pocket. His face guv? Wurl...average I suppose, I don't recall really, but that suit..."

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Belief]]

* This might be a silly question (I haven't read the books, just what TV Tropes has to say about them), but . . .but... Belief changes the nature of reality in Discworld. Reality there is bleaker than most characters normally realize (unless they're knurd from drinking Klatchian coffee). If the people who think it isn't bleak outnumber the people like Vimes who naturally see things as they are, how come their world hasn't become less bleak to match their beliefs?



*** Don't read up on them too closely, or you'll discover that physics in the real world doesn't work anything like that. And learning would be wrong. (Seriously, Discworld has not a damn thing to do with science or maths, just enjoy it as it is.)
*** It's not that being observed changes the thing, is the measuring that changes the object. Also, if you set a detector it doesn't stop from happening, what that test proves is that those particles can behave as both things, they actually are both things until you try to measure them. It behaves as a wave until you put try to measure it, and then the waveform thingy collapses and bop, you have a particle behavior.

to:

*** ** Don't read up on them too closely, or you'll discover that physics in the real world doesn't work anything like that. And learning would be wrong. (Seriously, Discworld has not a damn thing to do with science or maths, just enjoy it as it is.)
*** ** It's not that being observed changes the thing, is the measuring that changes the object. Also, if you set a detector it doesn't stop from happening, what that test proves is that those particles can behave as both things, they actually are both things until you try to measure them. It behaves as a wave until you put try to measure it, and then the waveform thingy collapses and bop, you have a particle behavior.
behavior.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Equivilant Exchange]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Round worlds]]



*** Because the bubble that the mini-universe is contained inside was also a sphere?

to:

*** ** Because the bubble that the mini-universe is contained inside was also a sphere?



*** The elves were there in the first timeline, but the wizards don't know it until they go inside Roundworld in the second book.
**** But in the second book they were pulled into Roundworld as a side-effect of the elves going there, so before that, the elves shouldn't have been in Roundworld.
*** The best explaination is probably that the humans evolved extelligence on their own the first time around, just like we did on the RealLife version of Roundworld. The reason that chasing off the elves in the second book reduced Roundworld humans to un-extelligent slackers is that the elves only had time to sing the first note of their "song" -- presumably, a note that soothes the intended victim so it'll listen to the rest of the performance -- and that "soothing" effect lingered. When the wizards refrained from stopping them, the elves finished their song and thus, had time to introduce creativity to the human precursors -- something that would've evolved anyway, but the elves didn't know that -- yet their hanging around afterwards still tampered with history just enough to cause MedievalStasis and prevent humans from leaving the planet.

to:

*** ** The elves were there in the first timeline, but the wizards don't know it until they go inside Roundworld in the second book.
**** ** But in the second book they were pulled into Roundworld as a side-effect of the elves going there, so before that, the elves shouldn't have been in Roundworld.
*** ** The best explaination is probably that the humans evolved extelligence on their own the first time around, just like we did on the RealLife version of Roundworld. The reason that chasing off the elves in the second book reduced Roundworld humans to un-extelligent slackers is that the elves only had time to sing the first note of their "song" -- presumably, a note that soothes the intended victim so it'll listen to the rest of the performance -- and that "soothing" effect lingered. When the wizards refrained from stopping them, the elves finished their song and thus, had time to introduce creativity to the human precursors -- something that would've evolved anyway, but the elves didn't know that -- yet their hanging around afterwards still tampered with history just enough to cause MedievalStasis and prevent humans from leaving the planet.
planet.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:7A]]



*** Except that your link notes the thirteenth floor can be called 12A or 12B. So my question stands, why would anyone call it 7A (or 12A) when it is quite obviously the ''second'' 7 (or 12)?
**** Same reason that [[Franchise/StarTrek the first NCC-1701 was just "Enterprise" and the second was "Enterprise-A"]].
*** It's the second 7, but the first to require a letter. Why should they start at the second letter?

to:

*** ** Except that your link notes the thirteenth floor can be called 12A or 12B. So my question stands, why would anyone call it 7A (or 12A) when it is quite obviously the ''second'' 7 (or 12)?
**** ** Same reason that [[Franchise/StarTrek the first NCC-1701 was just "Enterprise" and the second was "Enterprise-A"]].
*** ** It's the second 7, but the first to require a letter. Why should they start at the second letter?
letter?

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Krull]]



*** And Al Khali is visited in both ''Sourcery'' and ''Jingo'' yet it hasn't got a map yet either.

to:

*** ** And Al Khali is visited in both ''Sourcery'' and ''Jingo'' yet it hasn't got a map yet either.
either.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Goths]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:American editions]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Skullcap]]



*** Yep. I think Stephen Briggs started this one; it was part of his original Vetinari costume, and the only part to have remained when the rest of the costume switched from "Renaissance nobleman" to "Victorian gentleman". The first time it actually gets mentioned in a book, I think, is ''Making Money'' where it's actually part of the plot. Kidby generally seems to draw the Patrician face-on, so you can't ''see'' the skullcap...
*** If I'm not mistaken, the skullcap is also mentioned in "Going Postal" when Vetinari is put on a postage stamp. Could be wrong about that though.
*** The Pope and Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church also wear skullcaps, albeit in white (pope) or red (Cardinals). So it isn't just a Jewish thing. Apparently senior dignitaries of the Catholic Church are preserving the formal robes and dress of mediaeval Italian princes - which, of course, they were at that time! The parellel - British judges and lawyers are the only people, todsy, who wear formal wigs, which were commonplace three hundred years ago. What was once everyday has become ceremonial.

to:

*** ** Yep. I think Stephen Briggs started this one; it was part of his original Vetinari costume, and the only part to have remained when the rest of the costume switched from "Renaissance nobleman" to "Victorian gentleman". The first time it actually gets mentioned in a book, I think, is ''Making Money'' where it's actually part of the plot. Kidby generally seems to draw the Patrician face-on, so you can't ''see'' the skullcap...
*** ** If I'm not mistaken, the skullcap is also mentioned in "Going Postal" when Vetinari is put on a postage stamp. Could be wrong about that though.
*** ** The Pope and Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church also wear skullcaps, albeit in white (pope) or red (Cardinals). So it isn't just a Jewish thing. Apparently senior dignitaries of the Catholic Church are preserving the formal robes and dress of mediaeval Italian princes - which, of course, they were at that time! The parellel - British judges and lawyers are the only people, todsy, who wear formal wigs, which were commonplace three hundred years ago. What was once everyday has become ceremonial.

[[/folder]]

[[folder:Tiffany and witchcraft]]



*** Being a witch has everything to do with magic, girls without magical talent don't become witches, plain as that. The fact that they don't '''use''' magic much is similar to the reason senior wizards don't use it much, in small quantities it can be very helpful, but using it too much is very dangerous.
**** Not true. It's explicitly mentioned in the books that Granny and Tiffany weren't born with an ounce of magic in their blood. They became witches through sheer force of will and stubbornness. It seems to me that it takes a certain personality to get magic, and people with that kind of willpower are witches whether they use magic or not (Granny Aching was almost certainly a witch, and she never used any magic at all, as far as I remember).
***** Source or it didn't happen. Near as I've been able to tell, they're born with magical abilities, but need training before they realise they've got them.
***** In Tiffany's case it is explicitly stated near the end of And I Shall Wear Midnight that she was not born with any special talent in magic (she was born instead with a special talent in making cheese), but when she decided as a young girl that she wanted to be a witch, her determination more or less "forced" the universe to give her magic ability. But this sort of thing is fully consistent with the Theory of Narrative Causality. You could say the local narrativium responded to her will and caused her to develop magical powers. But you could also read that line to mean that Tiffany had some magical talent all along, just not ''special'' magical talent. Because by the end of her trilogy, Tiffany isn't just any young witch, she's a ''very powerful'' young witch, basically the Granny Weatherwax of her generation. So, in this interpretation, she was born with sufficient magical ability to become an ordinary witch, but her force of will turned her into a very good witch.
**** All this I know. My annoyance isn't about how witch magic works, it's about the preachiness of the Tiffany Aching books.
***** Pratchett actually contradicted himself very badly on Tiffany being born with or without magical talent. It was an important plot point in ''The Wee Free Men'' that Tiffany inherited the position of witch -- including the magic, and the particular ''kind'' of magic -- from her grandmother, Granny Sarah Aching. This carried through when Tiffany kickstarted the plot of ''Wintersmith'' specifically because she is tied to land and nature the way that most witches aren't. Then, it was an important plot point in ''I Shall Wear Midnight'' that Tiffany was born ''without any magical talent at all,'' and you might even call the plot the universe punishing her for taking the power that she has through sheer force of will. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
***** Tiffany inherited her ''close connection to the Chalk'' from Granny Aching, not her magic. Having that connection had nothing innately to do with witchcraft, and could just as easily have helped to make her a good shepherd or a good druid or a good gardener or a good geologist as a good witch.
***** Keep in mind, they're aimed at children/young adults. Pratchett's being a bit more obvious than usual.
****** Completely disagree. Heavy-handed moralising is no more acceptable in a children's book than an adult's book and Pratchett's earlier work for younger audiences (such as the Johnny Maxwell series) shows none of it.
****** Possibly they are that way because ''Tiffany'' is prone to taking a moral hard line. The sections which are told from Roland's or other characters' POV aren't particularly "preachy", so perhaps it's intentional: Pratchett's way of illustrating how Tiffany is becoming as ultra-strict about right and wrong as Granny Weatherwax, who's all-too-aware of her own potential for "cackling".

to:

*** ** Being a witch has everything to do with magic, girls without magical talent don't become witches, plain as that. The fact that they don't '''use''' magic much is similar to the reason senior wizards don't use it much, in small quantities it can be very helpful, but using it too much is very dangerous.
**** ** Not true. It's explicitly mentioned in the books that Granny and Tiffany weren't born with an ounce of magic in their blood. They became witches through sheer force of will and stubbornness. It seems to me that it takes a certain personality to get magic, and people with that kind of willpower are witches whether they use magic or not (Granny Aching was almost certainly a witch, and she never used any magic at all, as far as I remember).
***** ** Source or it didn't happen. Near as I've been able to tell, they're born with magical abilities, but need training before they realise they've got them.
***** ** In Tiffany's case it is explicitly stated near the end of And I Shall Wear Midnight that she was not born with any special talent in magic (she was born instead with a special talent in making cheese), but when she decided as a young girl that she wanted to be a witch, her determination more or less "forced" the universe to give her magic ability. But this sort of thing is fully consistent with the Theory of Narrative Causality. You could say the local narrativium responded to her will and caused her to develop magical powers. But you could also read that line to mean that Tiffany had some magical talent all along, just not ''special'' magical talent. Because by the end of her trilogy, Tiffany isn't just any young witch, she's a ''very powerful'' young witch, basically the Granny Weatherwax of her generation. So, in this interpretation, she was born with sufficient magical ability to become an ordinary witch, but her force of will turned her into a very good witch.
**** ** All this I know. My annoyance isn't about how witch magic works, it's about the preachiness of the Tiffany Aching books.
***** ** Pratchett actually contradicted himself very badly on Tiffany being born with or without magical talent. It was an important plot point in ''The Wee Free Men'' that Tiffany inherited the position of witch -- including the magic, and the particular ''kind'' of magic -- from her grandmother, Granny Sarah Aching. This carried through when Tiffany kickstarted the plot of ''Wintersmith'' specifically because she is tied to land and nature the way that most witches aren't. Then, it was an important plot point in ''I Shall Wear Midnight'' that Tiffany was born ''without any magical talent at all,'' and you might even call the plot the universe punishing her for taking the power that she has through sheer force of will. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
***** ** Tiffany inherited her ''close connection to the Chalk'' from Granny Aching, not her magic. Having that connection had nothing innately to do with witchcraft, and could just as easily have helped to make her a good shepherd or a good druid or a good gardener or a good geologist as a good witch.
***** ** Keep in mind, they're aimed at children/young adults. Pratchett's being a bit more obvious than usual.
****** ** Completely disagree. Heavy-handed moralising is no more acceptable in a children's book than an adult's book and Pratchett's earlier work for younger audiences (such as the Johnny Maxwell series) shows none of it.
****** ** Possibly they are that way because ''Tiffany'' is prone to taking a moral hard line. The sections which are told from Roland's or other characters' POV aren't particularly "preachy", so perhaps it's intentional: Pratchett's way of illustrating how Tiffany is becoming as ultra-strict about right and wrong as Granny Weatherwax, who's all-too-aware of her own potential for "cackling".
"cackling".

[[/folder]]

[[folder:L-Space and art]]



*** Who would sue a Wiki?

to:

*** ** Who would sue a Wiki?



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Dog-speak]]



* You know, so many people bash ''Literature/{{Twilight}}'' for the sparkling vampires (myself included), but I just realized something: Terry Pratchett has a race of beings that traditionally eat people and are vulnerable to sunlight being able to walk around during the day and integrate into society. Some of them even sparkle. But Terry doesn't the kind of shit Stephanie Meyer does for what he did with trolls.
** Because Terry Pratchett is an amazing writer, who researches everything he writes about, has a sparkling wit, and has clever, inventive, and memorable stories that hold up under repeat viewings and get better over time.\\\
Stephanie Meyer, however, is an utterly talentless hack who can't be bothered to look at a map long enough to see what's on the west coast of a bloody ''continent'', and who seems to think a creepy ephebophilic stalker and werewolves falling in lust with infants is the epitome of wholesome romance.\\\
There's comparing apples to oranges, and then there's comparing diamonds to turds. Terry Pratchett is, in every conceivable way, a better author than Stephanie Meyer. It's not just the sparkling that she gets flack for.
*** True. Still, I contend that it makes decent FridgeHorror.
** Also, vampires in Discworld are only fine in the Sun if they cover their skin completely with clothing and wear a hat to protect their face (Sally says as much in Thud!). The ones that don't attack people are also sort of neurotic, replacing their addiction with something else (light, in Otto's case, or police work with Sally). Black Ribboners are idiosyncratic and humorous. Other vampires (which we really only see in Discworld/CarpeJugulum) are still parodies of the common vampire legend, and they don't sparkle. And as said above, Pratchett is an absolutely brilliant author while Meyer is a talentless hack. Her depiction of vampires isn't the sole basis for her hate.
*** Read the original post again. S/he wasn't talking about Pratchett's depiction of ''vampires''...
** Trolls don't eat people. They might chew them up a bit, but it's bad news for them if they swallow. Also, in most literature, myth, folklore etc trolls are depicted as many different types of creature, from small and hairy, to massive ogre-like beasts. Terry Pratchett has taken the time to work out a fairly 'plausible' way of showing trolls that explain why they are like they are. Firstly, they're made of stone and have silicone brains. They're like a kind of inorganic human, or like a living computer. Daylight is only harmful to them in the way that the sun is hot and overheating is a problem (like in computers) so they have to shut down. He goes on to describe other things like diamond teeth to explain how they can eat rock. He's put thought into making them work. I don't think there's been much trying to explain twilight vampires (although it's not necessary in a story to explain the biology of things, but it is nice). Modern vampires are generally quite similar, but there are a lot of exceptions, such as those which can survive in sunlight or are not harmed by garlic. In the Discworld books I think it may be lampshaded or at least referenced that saome vampires are atypical. But twilight vampires seemingling have none of the qualities of a stereotypical vampire, or even the less known attributes. They can run around in the sun without harm, they don't seem to be affected by garlic or crucifixes, can cross running water, can enter a house without permission, can't turn into a bat or any other 'night-creature'. Supposedly some vampires could be stopped by spilling rice or something (they'd have to count it) or hiding their possesions, or burying them upside down or something. I think I heard somewhere that twilight vampires have to be dismembered and burnt to kill them off for good, so a simple stake in the heart probably won't kill them. Twilight vampires also sparkle and have magic powers and don't 'need' to drink blood. So to me, they're a vampire in name only. They're more like some kind of fairy. It's like saying 'here is a cat, but it has no legs, no fur, is covered in scales and has fins and has gills instead of lungs and is actually a fish, but it's still a cat'. The problem with twilight isn't just the vampires, though it is a large part. The opinions I see around the internet from people who've read the books show that a lot of people are annoyed with how every other sentence mentions how handsome and sexy Edward is and how powerful and magic and everything he is, but how he has such a tragic life (death? unlife?) what with being immortal, eternally young, handsome and no weaknesses... But I suppose if you like twilight, it's your choice. Just don't expect everyone to agree that it's a fantastic book.

to:

* You know, so many people bash ''Literature/{{Twilight}}'' for the sparkling vampires (myself included), but I just realized something: Terry Pratchett has a race of beings that traditionally eat people and are vulnerable to sunlight being able to walk around during the day and integrate into society. Some of them even sparkle. But Terry doesn't the kind of shit Stephanie Meyer does for what he did with trolls.
** Because Terry Pratchett is an amazing writer, who researches everything he writes about, has a sparkling wit, and has clever, inventive, and memorable stories that hold up under repeat viewings and get better over time.\\\
Stephanie Meyer, however, is an utterly talentless hack who can't be bothered to look at a map long enough to see what's on the west coast of a bloody ''continent'', and who seems to think a creepy ephebophilic stalker and werewolves falling in lust with infants is the epitome of wholesome romance.\\\
There's comparing apples to oranges, and then there's comparing diamonds to turds. Terry Pratchett is, in every conceivable way, a better author than Stephanie Meyer. It's not just the sparkling that she gets flack for.
*** True. Still, I contend that it makes decent FridgeHorror.
** Also, vampires in Discworld are only fine in the Sun if they cover their skin completely with clothing and wear a hat to protect their face (Sally says as much in Thud!). The ones that don't attack people are also sort of neurotic, replacing their addiction with something else (light, in Otto's case, or police work with Sally). Black Ribboners are idiosyncratic and humorous. Other vampires (which we really only see in Discworld/CarpeJugulum) are still parodies of the common vampire legend, and they don't sparkle. And as said above, Pratchett is an absolutely brilliant author while Meyer is a talentless hack. Her depiction of vampires isn't the sole basis for her hate.
*** Read the original post again. S/he wasn't talking about Pratchett's depiction of ''vampires''...
** Trolls don't eat people. They might chew them up a bit, but it's bad news for them if they swallow. Also, in most literature, myth, folklore etc trolls are depicted as many different types of creature, from small and hairy, to massive ogre-like beasts. Terry Pratchett has taken the time to work out a fairly 'plausible' way of showing trolls that explain why they are like they are. Firstly, they're made of stone and have silicone brains. They're like a kind of inorganic human, or like a living computer. Daylight is only harmful to them in the way that the sun is hot and overheating is a problem (like in computers) so they have to shut down. He goes on to describe other things like diamond teeth to explain how they can eat rock. He's put thought into making them work. I don't think there's been much trying to explain twilight vampires (although it's not necessary in a story to explain the biology of things, but it is nice). Modern vampires are generally quite similar, but there are a lot of exceptions, such as those which can survive in sunlight or are not harmed by garlic. In the Discworld books I think it may be lampshaded or at least referenced that saome vampires are atypical. But twilight vampires seemingling have none of the qualities of a stereotypical vampire, or even the less known attributes. They can run around in the sun without harm, they don't seem to be affected by garlic or crucifixes, can cross running water, can enter a house without permission, can't turn into a bat or any other 'night-creature'. Supposedly some vampires could be stopped by spilling rice or something (they'd have to count it) or hiding their possesions, or burying them upside down or something. I think I heard somewhere that twilight vampires have to be dismembered and burnt to kill them off for good, so a simple stake in the heart probably won't kill them. Twilight vampires also sparkle and have magic powers and don't 'need' to drink blood. So to me, they're a vampire in name only. They're more like some kind of fairy. It's like saying 'here is a cat, but it has no legs, no fur, is covered in scales and has fins and has gills instead of lungs and is actually a fish, but it's still a cat'. The problem with twilight isn't just the vampires, though it is a large part. The opinions I see around the internet from people who've read the books show that a lot of people are annoyed with how every other sentence mentions how handsome and sexy Edward is and how powerful and magic and everything he is, but how he has such a tragic life (death? unlife?) what with being immortal, eternally young, handsome and no weaknesses... But I suppose if you like twilight, it's your choice. Just don't expect everyone to agree that it's a fantastic book.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Age]]



** Why? Vetinari is implicitly a few years older than vimes in Night Watch. He's a young gentleman, so he's still in school, college-phase to be exact, whereas Vimes is poor and thus had to get a job.

* Does catch and release fishing not exist on this world? Despite the words of a certain Tyrant, I suspect the first fish to fall victim to this would come up with a word for "water" very quickly.
** Does metaphor not exist in your world?
*** It does. But my world also has a wick called AnalogyBackfire. (Though one that could work to the Tyrant's benefit, if drawn to the full conclusion that people won't realize they're slaves until they leave the country.)
** Considering the massive amounts of food needed by city-states (mostly Ankh-Morpork) I doubt there's a lot of time spent fishing for the fun of it, at the very least the people who enjoy it would probably sell/eat the fish. The only fisherman we know are Ridcully who would most likely cook and eat it as son as possible, and the fly-fisherman from Mort who looked forward to NOT catching a fish. So no, catch and release fishing probably does not exist on the disk.

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** Why? Vetinari is implicitly a few years older than vimes Vimes in Night Watch. He's a young gentleman, so he's still in school, college-phase to be exact, whereas Vimes is poor and thus had to get a job.

* Does catch and release fishing not exist on this world? Despite the words of a certain Tyrant, I suspect the first fish to fall victim to this would come up with a word for "water" very quickly.
** Does metaphor not exist in your world?
*** It does. But my world also has a wick called AnalogyBackfire. (Though one that could work to the Tyrant's benefit, if drawn to the full conclusion that people won't realize they're slaves until they leave the country.)
** Considering the massive amounts of food needed by city-states (mostly Ankh-Morpork) I doubt there's a lot of time spent fishing for the fun of it, at the very least the people who enjoy it would probably sell/eat the fish. The only fisherman we know are Ridcully who would most likely cook and eat it as son as possible, and the fly-fisherman from Mort who looked forward to NOT catching a fish. So no, catch and release fishing probably does not exist on the disk.
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[[folder:Death's appearances]]



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[[folder:French translation]]



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[[folder:Carrot writing to his parents]]



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[[folder:Cohen the last hero]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Assassin Insurance]]



** Remember that taking contracts is fully optional for the assassins guild. Going by Pratchett's style, I'd assume that this happened once, and the guild bent its considerable influence into fulfilling the conditions for assassination, thus earning a commision and discouraging smartasses in one fell swoop.

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** Remember that taking contracts is fully optional for the assassins guild. Going by Pratchett's style, I'd assume that this happened once, and the guild bent its considerable influence into fulfilling the conditions for assassination, thus earning a commision commission and discouraging smartasses in one fell swoop.



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Double meaning Snuff]]



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[[folder:Feet memory]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Lady Luck]]



[[/folder]]

[[folder:Wizards and knowing death time]]



*** In fact, I think that it was either in Mort or Soul Music that Albert returns back into the world after centuries spent in Death's domain, enters Mended Drum (formerly Broken Drum) and is asked by current barkeep to fit the bill he made those hundreds of years ago when he was two weeks away from dying.

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*** ** In fact, I think that it was either in Mort or Soul Music that Albert returns back into the world after centuries spent in Death's domain, enters Mended Drum (formerly Broken Drum) and is asked by current barkeep to fit the bill he made those hundreds of years ago when he was two weeks away from dying.



*** It's not just "likely", it's stated outright in ''Reaper Man'' when Windle is grousing about nobody remembering it's his death-day.

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*** ** It's not just "likely", it's stated outright in ''Reaper Man'' when Windle is grousing about nobody remembering it's his death-day.



*** I forget where it says this, but I'm pretty sure that's the WordOfGod explanation. The quote goes something along the lines of, "They are aware that there is such a thing as a ''lingering'' death." ''Nanny Ogg's Cookbook'' also mentions an instance of a wizard who died of drinking too much at his Going-Away Party.
*** I would have thought Wizards would be all too aware of what happens to people who try to be Mister Clever-Dick on the Disc. What with narrativium and vengeful gods and all.

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*** ** I forget where it says this, but I'm pretty sure that's the WordOfGod explanation. The quote goes something along the lines of, "They are aware that there is such a thing as a ''lingering'' death." ''Nanny Ogg's Cookbook'' also mentions an instance of a wizard who died of drinking too much at his Going-Away Party.
*** ** I would have thought Wizards would be all too aware of what happens to people who try to be Mister Clever-Dick on the Disc. What with narrativium and vengeful gods and all.



*** Is it? I remember at least one wizard who knew death was coming, so he climbed inside an impregnable box-- sans air-holes-- and died of asphyxiation.
*** Presumably he was going to die of a heart attack or something anyway, and the suffocation just sped up the timetable by a few hours while adding a dose of irony.

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*** ** Is it? I remember at least one wizard who knew death was coming, so he climbed inside an impregnable box-- sans air-holes-- and died of asphyxiation.
*** ** Presumably he was going to die of a heart attack or something anyway, and the suffocation just sped up the timetable by a few hours while adding a dose of irony.


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[[folder:Harry King the knight]]


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[[folder:Ridcully as Archchancellor]]


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[[folder:Younger wizard origin]]


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[[folder:Reading guide]]


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[[folder:Twoflower's Luggage]]


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[[/folder]]
17th Dec '15 12:35:29 PM Discar
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* Sorry for skipping the question queue, but how did this page survive for so long time with its title written wrongly?
** The link goes to the same page no matter how you capitalize it. Literature/DiScwOrld, even. Plus, we like wikiwords and Discworld has an obvious way to do that, even if it's not correct.
*** This is why using non-[=MediaWiki=] wikis is just stupid.
11th Oct '15 8:57:18 AM WeirdBeard
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***Not entirely true: there's JerkSue and VillainSue subtypes.
29th Sep '15 3:49:55 PM LBHills
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** When the point about lack of dwarfish feminine pronouns first came up (in ''Feet of Clay,'' I believe) it seemed likely to me that Carrot's original home in the mines of Copperhead had borrowed the customs of the local humans, at least in terms of telling ''humans'' which gender they were. ''The Fifth Elephant'' made it clear that different dwarf colonies did vary in their level of 'traditional' culture.
20th Sep '15 12:34:27 AM Myydrin
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**** Actually having Aspergers, I can say with confidence that you can indeed be cool, calm, and collected and can be quite adept in social interaction. Remember it is a very broad spectrum disorder.
7th Sep '15 5:30:50 AM jormis29
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*** Pratchett himself mentions in ''The Art of Discworld'' and ''The Pratchett Portfolio'' how spot-on he thinks Kidby captures the characters. Not to mention that the official ''GURPS Discworld'' roleplaying game, which was co-authored by Pratchett, uses the Kidby drawings.

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*** Pratchett himself mentions in ''The Art of Discworld'' and ''The Pratchett Portfolio'' how spot-on he thinks Kidby captures the characters. Not to mention that the official ''GURPS Discworld'' ''[[TabletopGame/DiscworldRolePlayingGame GURPS Discworld]]'' roleplaying game, which was co-authored by Pratchett, uses the Kidby drawings.
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