Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Headscratchers / CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
General clarification on works content



to:

** In ''Civil War,'' Zemo mentions that while Natasha dumped all the files onto the internet, only a skilled operative like himself could decrypt the files.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** There are countless possible reasons that may lead to that, but you can read ComicBook/CivilWar for some basic ideas.

to:

** There are countless possible reasons that may lead to that, but you can read ComicBook/CivilWar ''ComicBook/{{Civil War|2006}}'' for some basic ideas.

Added: 579

Changed: 83

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


--->'''Steve Rogers:''' Soldiers trust each other. That's what makes it an army. Not a bunch of guys running around shooting guns.\\
'''Nick Fury:''' [[Film/CaptainMarvel2019 Last time I trusted someone, I lost an eye]]. Look, I didn't want you doing anything you weren't comfortable with. Agent Romanoff is comfortable with everything.\\
'''Steve Rogers:''' I can't lead a mission when the people I'm leading have missions of their own.\\
'''Nick Fury:''' It's called compartmentalization. Nobody spills the secrets, because nobody knows them all.\\
'''Steve Rogers:''' Except you.






*** And not only was Hanssen a double agent working counterintelligence for the FBI, but when the FBI realized there was a mole (Hanssen), [[HiredToHuntYourself Hanssen was put on the team to find this person]]. Working on that team gave him several more years to cover his tracks or stay ahead of the search.

to:

*** And not only was Hanssen a double agent working counterintelligence for the FBI, but when the FBI realized there was a mole (Hanssen), [[HiredToHuntYourself Hanssen was put on the team to find this person]]. Working on that team gave him person]], and he ended up getting several more years to cover his tracks or stay ahead of the search.



** With ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' it has now been confirmed that a Soviet/Russian cell of HYDRA was involved in the Winter Soldier program -- the primary facility was in Siberia. Given that at least ''some'' of the HYDRA agents involved seemed to be Soviet officials or at least ''masquerading'' as Soviet officials, it makes perfect sense that there would be aspects of the Winter Soldier program made to look superficially Soviet.

to:

** With ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' it has now been confirmed establishes that a Soviet/Russian cell of HYDRA was involved in the Winter Soldier program -- the primary facility was in Siberia. Given that at least ''some'' of the HYDRA agents involved seemed to be Soviet officials or at least ''masquerading'' as Soviet officials, it makes perfect sense that there would be aspects of the Winter Soldier program made to look superficially Soviet.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** They have Fury's psych profile, extensive personal observations, access to the same type of AI his car has, knowledge of the traffic jams that keep him on a certain route (which they may have arranged), and, oh yeah, ''an algorithm intended to predict people's reactions''. We don't know if it can be applied on a more tactical level, but it ''would'' make sense. It's also possible the Soldier planned to shoot Fury ''however'' Fury took that intersection (''all'' of the options would force Fury to slow down, including straight), realized the crash would force Fury left, and Fury just happened to end up on the worst route.


Added DiffLines:

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:


* Kind of a tangent, but related to Natasha's history: Zola says that her middle name is "Alianova", which doesn't seem like a patronymic[[note]]In Russian names, a version of the father's name is used as a the middle name for his children[[/note]], and Wiki/TheOtherWiki confirms that patrynoms don't end with -nova or -ova. Does this mean that "Natasha Romanov" is just another of Black Widow's many aliases?
** I always like referring to [[http://fuckyeahblackwidow.tumblr.com/post/5457623630/the-name-game this Tumblr post]] for a good explanation on Nat's confusing name history (at least in comics). "Alianova" was an interesting choice when Claremont first used it but not because patronymics don't end in "-ova". It's actually very common, and Wiki/TheOtherWiki does not explicitly say female patronymics cannot have "-nova" or "-ova", which would be incorrect. My guess is that the movie just went with Alianova since that seems to be Marvel's default in their encyclopedias. Whether or not Natalia Alianova Romanova is an alias or not for MCU's Widow remains to be seen.

to:

* Kind of a tangent, but related to Natasha's history: Zola says that her middle name is "Alianova", which doesn't seem like a patronymic[[note]]In Russian names, a version of the father's name is used as a the middle name for his children[[/note]], and Wiki/TheOtherWiki Website/TheOtherWiki confirms that patrynoms don't end with -nova or -ova. Does this mean that "Natasha Romanov" is just another of Black Widow's many aliases?
** I always like referring to [[http://fuckyeahblackwidow.tumblr.com/post/5457623630/the-name-game this Tumblr post]] for a good explanation on Nat's confusing name history (at least in comics). "Alianova" was an interesting choice when Claremont first used it but not because patronymics don't end in "-ova". It's actually very common, and Wiki/TheOtherWiki Website/TheOtherWiki does not explicitly say female patronymics cannot have "-nova" or "-ova", which would be incorrect. My guess is that the movie just went with Alianova since that seems to be Marvel's default in their encyclopedias. Whether or not Natalia Alianova Romanova is an alias or not for MCU's Widow remains to be seen.



*** Wiki/TheOtherWiki says her name is Natalia Alianovna Romanova.

to:

*** Wiki/TheOtherWiki Website/TheOtherWiki says her name is Natalia Alianovna Romanova.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** The fact that he had enough clarity to ask the question in the first place is our first hint that HYDRA’s control over him isn’t absolute. He recognized Steve. Bucky’s memories and identity were jumpstarted by his proximity to Steve, in addition to Steve calling him by his actual name. Through the movie, Steve takes a hammer to the restraint HYDRA put on Bucky’s mind, and he eventually succeeds.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** As well, Sitwell asked the men with him to get his car ready, then didn't get in. HYDRA already knows that Steve and Natasha are onto them, so an important agent going missing in the city would raise red flags, and there is a good chance they'd have killed him even if he didn't talk, just to be certain.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

[[folder:"Who the hell is Bucky?"]]
* This is an awesome moment taken almost verbatim, visually and verbally, from the comics, but [[WatsonianVersusDoylist what reason would Bucky have to ask this question when Steve says his name]]? From everything we ever see about The Winter Soldier, he's a single-minded weapon with one goal-- complete mission and get out. He has no thoughts beyond doing what he was assigned to do, and is designed by Hydra specifically to ''not'' be an independent thinker. He should not care that his target appears to recognize him and calls him this (from his perspective) random and unfamiliar name. Things like curiosity, inquisitiveness, etc., should for all intents and purposes be completely absent unless they relate directly to completing the mission, no?
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** First, this isn't the comics. Not every character has every ability they have in 616, or the Ultimate-verse, which heavily inspires the MCU. If they did, Thor wouldn't need the Bifrost for inter-dimensional travel. Second, Hulk's not invincible. The Chitauri pinned him down during the Battle of New York with far less firepower than even one of those helicarriers could have brought to bear and he was completely unable to escape their barrage. Thirdly, Banner trying to kill himself happens offscreen. In these movies he Hulks out when his heart rate increases. There is no way he could work up the nerve to shoot himself before starting to transform (shown in a deleted scene from TIH) so he'd already have some durability to survive a bullet in the mouth. When Banner is sniped with a tranquilizer unawares in Film/TheIncredibleHulk he's out like a light. To be fair, that's after the Hulk suppression procedure, but that treatment clearly didn't suppress the Hulk as intended. There's no reason why HYDRA can't kill Banner/Hulk with those helicarriers.

to:

** First, this isn't the comics. Not every character has every ability they have in 616, or the Ultimate-verse, which heavily inspires the MCU. If they did, Thor wouldn't need the Bifrost for inter-dimensional travel. Second, Hulk's not invincible. The Chitauri pinned him down during the Battle of New York with far less firepower than even one of those helicarriers could have brought to bear and he was completely unable to escape their barrage. Thirdly, Banner trying to kill himself happens offscreen. In these movies he Hulks out when his heart rate increases. There is no way he could work up the nerve to shoot himself before starting to transform (shown in a deleted scene from TIH) so he'd already have some durability to survive a bullet in the mouth. When Banner is sniped with a tranquilizer unawares in Film/TheIncredibleHulk ''Film/{{The Incredible Hulk|2008}}'' he's out like a light. To be fair, that's after the Hulk suppression procedure, but that treatment clearly didn't suppress the Hulk as intended. There's no reason why HYDRA can't kill Banner/Hulk with those helicarriers.

Added: 650

Removed: 636

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



[[folder: Ambushing Fury]]
* Nick Fury has just led his ambushers (the mock police) on a several-block chase through D.C. Finally throwing off the last pursuers (okay, he let a truck throw them off, same diff), he makes a left turn, and sees... the Soldier waiting in the middle of the street to ambush him with his grenade/mine launcher. The question: ''How the hell did the Soldier know where Fury would end up'' in time to position himself in his path? How would anyone predict Fury's ultimate path, especially given his making a turn at the last minute? Given that Hydra is good at this kind of thing, but how are they ''that'' good?


Added DiffLines:


[[folder: Ambushing Fury]]
* Nick Fury has just led his ambushers (the mock police) on a several-block chase through D.C. Finally throwing off the last pursuers (okay, he let a truck throw them off, same diff), he makes a left turn, and sees... the Winter Soldier waiting in the middle of the street to ambush him with his grenade/mine launcher. The question: ''How the hell did the Soldier know where Fury would end up'' in time to position himself in his path? How would anyone predict Fury's ultimate path, especially given his making a turn at the last minute? Given, Hydra is good at this kind of thing, but how are they ''that'' good?
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:


[[folder: Ambushing Fury]]
* Nick Fury has just led his ambushers (the mock police) on a several-block chase through D.C. Finally throwing off the last pursuers (okay, he let a truck throw them off, same diff), he makes a left turn, and sees... the Soldier waiting in the middle of the street to ambush him with his grenade/mine launcher. The question: ''How the hell did the Soldier know where Fury would end up'' in time to position himself in his path? How would anyone predict Fury's ultimate path, especially given his making a turn at the last minute? Given that Hydra is good at this kind of thing, but how are they ''that'' good?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** [[ReassignedToAntarctica Which means North Korea is where the HYDRA operatives who piss off the wrong people in the organization (but may still have value later) get sent.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** The suit is also around 70 years old. No matter how much preservation it's undergone, there's bound to be some deterioration from age.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* The idea that HYDRA had infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. from its inception simply doesn't hold water in the grand scheme of things. Why didn't they arrange for Elvis' court martial, conviction, and life sentence to a brig? Why didn't they whack or frame Martin Luther King Jr. during the Montgomery Bus Boycott, or before? Why didn't they put (more) operators into the National Guard during the Kent State Massacre? How was it that S.H.I.E.L.D. super science didn't knock North Vietnam out of that war? Why did they never try to overthrow Fidel Castro after the TheGreatPoliticsMessUp, or keep at least one BananaRepublic going after the end of the Cold War? Why didn't they whack or frame Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, or for that matter, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_(Watergate) Mark Felt]]? Why didn't they blackmail the senators who voted for Bill Clinton's acquittal into voting for conviction? Why did they wait until 2008 to manipulate a presidential election after the 1972 one, or did the October Surprise happen on their watch? Most especially, how come the Militia/Posse Comitatus movement was cracked down on, rather than infiltrated and used as an ear to the ground? All of this simply jolted me out of the story until Cap and company left that bunker.

to:

* The idea that HYDRA had infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D. from its inception simply doesn't hold water in the grand scheme of things. Why didn't they arrange for Elvis' court martial, conviction, and life sentence to a brig? Why didn't they whack or frame Martin Luther King Jr. during the Montgomery Bus Boycott, or before? Why didn't they put (more) operators into the National Guard during the Kent State Massacre? How was it that S.H.I.E.L.D. super science didn't knock North Vietnam out of that war? Why did they never try to overthrow Fidel Castro after the TheGreatPoliticsMessUp, fall of the Soviet Union, or keep at least one BananaRepublic going after the end of the Cold War? Why didn't they whack or frame Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, or for that matter, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_(Watergate) Mark Felt]]? Why didn't they blackmail the senators who voted for Bill Clinton's acquittal into voting for conviction? Why did they wait until 2008 to manipulate a presidential election after the 1972 one, or did the October Surprise happen on their watch? Most especially, how come the Militia/Posse Comitatus movement was cracked down on, rather than infiltrated and used as an ear to the ground? All of this simply jolted me out of the story until Cap and company left that bunker.



** Adolf Hitler and several other high ranking Nazis were on record as absolutely despising Jazz. Rock and roll would have been seen by Johann Schmidt and his disciples as Administrivia/TheSameButMore UpToEleven. I know, we have Ike Turner, Big John Hooker, Little Richard, Chubby Checker, and arguably James Brown as antecedents, and Buddy Holly actually wrote his own material, but Elvis was the poster child to the masses.

to:

** Adolf Hitler and several other high ranking Nazis were on record as absolutely despising Jazz. Rock and roll would have been seen by Johann Schmidt and his disciples as Administrivia/TheSameButMore UpToEleven.Administrivia/TheSameButMore. I know, we have Ike Turner, Big John Hooker, Little Richard, Chubby Checker, and arguably James Brown as antecedents, and Buddy Holly actually wrote his own material, but Elvis was the poster child to the masses.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Either that, or he's secretly [[ComicBook/LukeCageHeroForHire Heroing for Hire]] in his free time.

to:

** Either that, or he's secretly [[ComicBook/LukeCageHeroForHire [[ComicBook/HeroesForHire Heroing for Hire]] in his free time.

Added: 82

Changed: 236

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

** If you [[FreezeFrameBonus look closely]] when Tony brings up "Natalie"'s files in ''Iron Man 2'', it says she did modeling from 2004-2007. Natasha stated her encounter with the Winter Soldier was 5 years before this film, so in 2009.


Added DiffLines:

** It was confirmed in a tie-in comic, ''Black Widow Prelude'', that she is alive.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* After all the AvengersMania after the Battle for Manhattan, how does the Smithsonian not know Steve is alive? And the kid who recognizes Steve is acting as if he's seeing his hero, not as if he's seeing someone back from the dead. I'm sure that Cap's banner lists his dates as 1918-1945, just as Bucky's banner gives his dates as 1917-1944? Is this some of the footage that was filmed for Avengers and not used there? And if so, couldn't they have done a CGI correction?

to:

* After all the AvengersMania [=AvengersMania=] after the Battle for Manhattan, how does the Smithsonian not know Steve is alive? And the kid who recognizes Steve is acting as if he's seeing his hero, not as if he's seeing someone back from the dead. I'm sure that Cap's banner lists his dates as 1918-1945, just as Bucky's banner gives his dates as 1917-1944? Is this some of the footage that was filmed for Avengers and not used there? And if so, couldn't they have done a CGI correction?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

**''Film/BlackWidow2021'' states she was younger than six when she joined, which would put it before 1991.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** It's not someone from his high school. Its ''Zola'' who picked the targets, for one thing.

to:

** It's not someone from his high school. Its It's ''Zola'' who picked the targets, for one thing.

Top