Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Headscratchers / CaptainAmericaCivilWar

Go To

OR

Added: 502

Changed: 2

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Is everybody forgetting that Wanda is more responsible for the destruction caused by Ultron than Tony because not only did she indirectly create Ultron by mind raping Tony, she also fucking helped Ultron acquire the vibranium it needed and released the Hulk on a large city that could have killed a bunch of people?

to:

* Is everybody forgetting that Wanda is more responsible for the destruction caused by Ultron than Tony because not only did she indirectly create Ultron by mind raping Tony, she also fucking helped Ultron acquire the vibranium it needed and released the Hulk on a large city that could have killed a bunch of people?people.
** Regarding the MindRape the best I can offer is that while Ultron did happen because of it, Wanda did not force Tony to make Ultron, it was still his choice, he could have made something different to protect the earth that did not involve plugging dangerous alien technology into the internet. Also Ultron was already an idea of Tony's. Regarding helping Ultron and siccing the Hulk on Johannesburg though, though, the writers have seemingly forgotten that Wanda did that stuff after "Age of Ultron".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Is everybody forgetting that Wanda is more responsible for the destruction caused by Ultron than Tony because not only did she indirectly create Ultron by mind raping Tony she also fucking helped Ultron acquire the vibranium it needed and released the Hulk on a large city that could have killed a bunch of people

to:

* Is everybody forgetting that Wanda is more responsible for the destruction caused by Ultron than Tony because not only did she indirectly create Ultron by mind raping Tony Tony, she also fucking helped Ultron acquire the vibranium it needed and released the Hulk on a large city that could have killed a bunch of peoplepeople?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
This question needs to be answered

Added DiffLines:

[[folder: Why doesn’t Wanda feel like she should be held accountable for her actions?]]
* Is everybody forgetting that Wanda is more responsible for the destruction caused by Ultron than Tony because not only did she indirectly create Ultron by mind raping Tony she also fucking helped Ultron acquire the vibranium it needed and released the Hulk on a large city that could have killed a bunch of people
[[/folder]]

Changed: 90

Removed: 1834

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Meta questions aren't allowed


[[folder:Why can't the actor be in the Iron Man suit most of the time?]]
* There are times I can tell when Robert Downey, Jr.'s head is pasted on a stunt double. If you look closely at the scene where he is holding an injured Rhodes, Tony's head looks awkward. I can understand Hollywood using stunt doubles for dangerous stunts, but Iron Man is just sitting there with his wounded friend. They could have just put Robert in the suit. What is their reason for this?
** Most likely because the armor is only made to fit the stuntman, and the crew didn't want to pay to have a second suit made just for RDJ.
** There IS no on set Iron Man suit. It's all CGI pasted onto a mocap suit just like the Hulk. They made a real actual Iron Man suit once, the [=MK3=] for Iron Man, and RDJ even wore it but it was so cumbersome and impossible to move in it was only used for shots when Iron Man was just standing there and it was CGI most of the time. The Ironman suit with the helmet retracted effect doesn't quite look so well done in this film because it's a new thing they're doing, so they presumably haven't worked out the kinks to pasting RDJ's head onto a CGI headless suit I guess. But there's no stuntman wearing a suit. It's all CGI.
** So following that information, if the face looks off then it's the rendering of the green screen or whatever creating the suit. If RDJ isn't on set for some reason, then there might be a budget issue. Like any job, if someone is in the place of work then they have to be paid for it. And in a movie, someone is only contracted for a set amount of work - which is what the budget is for. If you need to bring them in for extra time, that's more money to be added to the budget. And when someone's salary is in the millions, that's usually a lot. So doubles and CGI are more cost effective.
[[/folder]]



* I don't know if I'm crazy and it's just me, but during the fight segment in the movie where T'Challa fights Bucky while in civilian clothes, I noticed something that seemed... odd. He placed his father's ring on his right hand. During the fight scene where Bucky escapes, he fights with T'Challa. There is a moment during their fight where T'Challa grabs Bucky's metal arm one handed and uses his free right hand (with the ring on it) to... point it at Bucky's hand? He is pointing his fingers of his right hand at Bucky's metal hand (as if he's using telepathy or something) and it appears that Bucky's hand is fighting his control, because for a few moments, his metal fingers are doing almost the same gesture. It is tough to explain, but it seemed so off to me, and I've seen the movie twice so there's SOMETHING going on there.

to:

* I don't know if I'm crazy and it's just me, but during During the fight segment in the movie where T'Challa fights Bucky while in civilian clothes, I noticed something that seemed... odd. He he placed his father's ring on his right hand. During the fight scene where Bucky escapes, he fights with T'Challa. There is a moment during their fight where T'Challa grabs Bucky's metal arm one handed and uses his free right hand (with the ring on it) to... point it at Bucky's hand? He is pointing his fingers of his right hand at Bucky's metal hand (as if he's using telepathy or something) and it appears that Bucky's hand is fighting his control, because for a few moments, his metal fingers are doing almost the same gesture. It is tough to explain, but it seemed so off to me, and I've seen the movie twice so there's SOMETHING going on there.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Tony watches a VHS tape of his parents being murdered by someone who happens to be in the room next to him, and said tape was offered to him by someone who clearly doesn't like him. Even if for someone so impulsive that can't seem like just a coincidence, especially if the tape belongs to an organization that secretly murdered his parents (why would they basically incriminate themselves?). Couldn't someone have suggested that the tape was altered for the sole purpose of making them fight each other?

to:

* Tony watches a VHS tape of his parents being murdered by someone who happens to be in the room next to him, and said tape was offered to him by someone who clearly doesn't like him. Even if for someone so impulsive impulsive, that can't seem like just a coincidence, especially if the tape belongs to an organization that secretly murdered his parents (why would they basically incriminate themselves?). Couldn't someone have suggested that the tape was altered for the sole purpose of making them fight each other?



** And he's a terrible liar. Not talking period, he can do, but there was no way he could have effectively lied to Tony about that being fake, especially given the reaction of Bucky.
** As mentioned above that's just the kind of guy Cap is. He's honest to a fault. It's the same reason he didn't just sign the Accords to shut everyone up with the intention to just go behind their back whenever he feels like it. If he's gonna commit to something like that he's gonna mean it. He tried to deflect the question with a half truth "Well I didn't know for sure it was him" (but he clearly put the dots together) but couldn't outright lie to Tony's face about it.

to:

** And he's Steve is a terrible liar. Not talking period, he can do, but there was no way he could have effectively lied to Tony about that being fake, especially given the reaction of Bucky.
** As mentioned above above, that's just the kind of guy Cap is. He's honest to a fault. It's the same reason he didn't just sign the Accords to shut everyone up with the intention to just go behind their back whenever he feels like it. If he's gonna commit to something like that that, he's gonna mean it. He tried to deflect the question with a half truth "Well half-truthful "Well, I didn't know for sure it was him" (but he clearly put the dots together) but couldn't outright lie to Tony's face about it.



** The way ''Age of Ultron'' played out, Wanda and Pietro were seen as misguided kids by the team that some of them (Cap and Hawkeye) were trying to get them to see the error of their ways. When the twins fought alongside the team and were willing to sacrifices their lives to fix their mistakes it was enough for them. Wanda was given a second chance by joining the Avengers and working toward atonement. This similar to what Clint did for Natasha in the MCU. As for this film intentionally ignoring ''Age of Ultron'' with Wanda I think it was a case of not being able to dive in depth with Wanda in this film and the fact that a year in universe for the characters. Wanda not mentioning her brother in this film could be a sign of her overcoming her grief (although ''Series/WandaVision'' suggests otherwise). Her not using her telepathy could be her pulling her punches. Mentioning her action in Age of Ultron wasn't really necessary. Wanda already felt bad for mistake in Civil War. Bringing up her hand in the Ultron incident wasn't necessary for the story or her character arc.
** What exactly does punishing Wanda accomplish? If anything, joining the Avengers is a good way of making her atone for what she's done. She's put to work using her powers to help others. So being part of the team keeps her off the street and ensures that she's not using her powers ''against'' anyone - only to help.

to:

** The way ''Age of Ultron'' played out, Wanda and Pietro were seen as misguided kids by the team that some of them (Cap and Hawkeye) were trying to get them to see the error of their ways. When the twins fought alongside the team and were willing to sacrifices sacrifice their lives to fix their mistakes mistakes, it was enough for them. Wanda was given a second chance by joining the Avengers and working toward atonement. This similar to what Clint did for Natasha in the MCU. As for this film intentionally ignoring ''Age of Ultron'' with Wanda Wanda, I think it was a case of not being able to dive in depth with Wanda in this film and the fact that a year in universe for the characters. Wanda not mentioning her brother in this film could be a sign of her overcoming her grief (although ''Series/WandaVision'' suggests otherwise). Her not using her telepathy could be her pulling her punches. Mentioning her action actions in Age ''Age of Ultron Ultron'' wasn't really necessary. Wanda already felt bad for her mistake in Civil War.''Civil War''. Bringing up her hand in the Ultron incident wasn't necessary for the story or her character arc.
** What exactly does punishing Wanda accomplish? If anything, joining the Avengers is a good way of making her atone for what she's done. She's put to work using her powers to help others. So being part of the team keeps her off the street streets and ensures that she's not using her powers ''against'' anyone - only to help.



** The United States government is in the habit of recruiting defectors all the time e.g. all those HYDRA scientists they contributed as part of Operation: Paperclip who almost certainly contributed to the deaths of countless innocent people. The Avengers doing that for Wanda isn't really much different. She's powerful enough to be a valuable asset to the team, especially since she helped mop the floor with Ultron. And considering the Avengers were about to be placed under the control of the UN due to the Sokovia accords (assuming some time passed between the actual Battle of Sokovia and the scene where we see Cap calling the new team together), the Avengers might have been encouraged to take her on by a government looking to get the incredibly powerful Scarlet Witch under their thumb. And she did get a proper redemption arc. It was in ''Age of Ultron'': She started as a straight-up antagonist, developed into an AntiVillain when we learned her motives, then became a full-on hero when she realized she had messed up, felt bad about it, and helped fix it, saving innocents in the process. Her NaiveNewcomer qualities are due to the fact that she's A) relatively new to the whole "hero" thing and B) still learning how The Avengers operate. If her seeming IncorruptiblePurePureness bothers you, think of it as her trying too hard, acting the part of the hero she wants to be.
** We're making the Watsonian assumption that Wanda intentionally released the Hulk on Johannesburg, but really the Doylist explanation is that the writers were just looking for an excuse to have a Hulk rampage. As mentioned above, it can be argued that Wanda didn't actually want to unleash the Hulk, but even if she did, why would she send him to a city that's miles away, instead of, oh I don't know, siccing him on the mostly catatonic Avengers? You could say "to distract Tony" but I think trying to stop Hulk from killing his teammates would keep him plenty distracted as well. And from what we've seen of her character before and after, she clearly doesn't want innocent people to get hurt which was why she and her brother abandoned Ultron. So yeah, we can chalk the inconsistency to the writing in Age of Ultron.

to:

** The United States government is in the habit of recruiting defectors all the time e.g. all those HYDRA scientists they contributed recruited as part of Operation: Paperclip who almost certainly contributed to the deaths of countless innocent people. The Avengers doing that for Wanda isn't really much different. She's powerful enough to be a valuable asset to the team, especially since she helped mop the floor with Ultron. And considering the Avengers were about to be placed under the control of the UN due to the Sokovia accords Accords (assuming some time passed between the actual Battle of Sokovia and the scene where we see Cap calling the new team together), the Avengers might have been encouraged to take her on by a government looking to get the incredibly powerful Scarlet Witch under their thumb. And she did get a proper redemption arc. It was arc in ''Age of Ultron'': She started as a straight-up antagonist, developed into an AntiVillain when we learned her motives, then became a full-on hero when she realized she had messed up, felt bad about it, and helped fix it, saving innocents in the process. Her NaiveNewcomer qualities are due to the fact that she's A) relatively new to the whole "hero" thing and B) still learning how The Avengers operate. If her seeming IncorruptiblePurePureness bothers you, think of it as her trying too hard, acting the part of the hero she wants to be.
** We're making the Watsonian assumption that Wanda intentionally released the Hulk on Johannesburg, but really the Doylist explanation is that the writers were just looking for an excuse to have a Hulk rampage. As mentioned above, it can be argued that Wanda didn't actually want to unleash the Hulk, but even if she did, why would she send him to a city that's miles away, instead of, oh I don't know, siccing him on the mostly catatonic Avengers? You could say "to distract Tony" but I think trying to stop Hulk from killing his teammates would keep him plenty distracted as well. And from what we've seen of her character before and after, she clearly doesn't want innocent people to get hurt which was why she and her brother abandoned Ultron. So yeah, we can chalk up the inconsistency to the writing in Age ''Age of Ultron.Ultron''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Tony is the poster boy of the SRA. The biggest name the on their side and the only real "face" that the Act has. Without him it looks like the collective [[ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight Avengers told the UN to go take a hike.]] Added with the money, high priced lawyers and contacts at his disposal that makes him untouchable. Ross indignation versus Tony's importance is a fight he could not win, so Ross wisely chose not to fight it.

to:

** Tony is the poster boy of the SRA. The biggest name the on their side and the only real "face" that the Act has. Without him it looks like the collective [[ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight Avengers told the UN to go take a hike.]] Added with the money, high priced lawyers and contacts at his disposal that makes him untouchable. Ross Ross' indignation versus Tony's importance is a fight he could not win, so Ross wisely chose not to fight it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Tony is the poster boy of the SRA. The biggest name the on their side and the only real "face" that the Act has. Without him it looks like the collective [[ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight Avengers told the UN to go take a hike.]] Added with the money, high priced lawyers and contacts at his disposal that makes him untouchable. Ross indignation versus Tony's importance is a fight he could not win, so Ross wisely chose not to fight it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


-->'''Bruce:''' So you're going for artificial intelligence and you don't want to tell the team?
-->'''Tony:''' Right. That's right. And you know why? Because we don't have time for a city hall debate. I don't want to hear the 'man was not meant to meddle' medley. I see a suit of armor around the world.
** The line about Wanda not having a visa complicates matters. She was a citizen of Sokovia, a country that physically no longer exist. That likely makes her a stateless person. As long as she was an Avenger, that wasn't an issue, because the Avengers went wherever they wanted in the world without worrying about national borders or the paperwork associated with them. But if countries are no longer letting the Avengers move around willy-nilly, then it raises the question of where Wanda could legally go. Tony's solution seemed to be that the Avengers compound is treated like international territory, so as long as Wanda remains there, she's fine, but if she steps outside, she'll be making an unauthorized entry into U.S. territory.
** As for not telling her about this ... knowing Tony, he probably figured that he'd be able to negotiate a more permanent solution to her residency status sooner rather than later. If he got that sorted out before Wanda decided to leave the compound for something, then she'd never know she was confined in the first place, and he could avoid an uncomfortable conversation.

to:

-->'''Bruce:''' --->'''Bruce:''' So you're going for artificial intelligence and you don't want to tell the team?
-->'''Tony:'''
team?\\
'''Tony:'''
Right. That's right. And you know why? Because we don't have time for a city hall debate. I don't want to hear the 'man was not meant to meddle' medley. I see a suit of armor around the world.
** The line about Wanda not having a visa complicates matters. She was a citizen of Sokovia, a country that (as later established in ''Series/TheFalconAndTheWinterSoldier'') physically no longer exist.exists. That likely makes her a stateless person. As long as she was an Avenger, that wasn't an issue, because the Avengers went wherever they wanted in the world without worrying about national borders or the paperwork associated with them. But if countries are no longer letting the Avengers move around willy-nilly, then it raises the question of where Wanda could legally go. Tony's solution seemed to be that the Avengers compound is treated like international territory, so as long as Wanda remains there, she's fine, but if she steps outside, she'll be making an unauthorized entry into U.S. territory.
** As for not telling her about this ...this... knowing Tony, he probably figured that he'd be able to negotiate a more permanent solution to her residency status sooner rather than later. If he got that sorted out before Wanda decided to leave the compound for something, then she'd never know she was confined in the first place, and he could avoid an uncomfortable conversation.
conversation.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

*** They could have made Bucky catch his reflection off the rear-view mirror.

Added: 374

Changed: 737

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

** The line about Wanda not having a visa complicates matters. She was a citizen of Sokovia, a country that physically no longer exist. That likely makes her a stateless person. As long as she was an Avenger, that wasn't an issue, because the Avengers went wherever they wanted in the world without worrying about national borders or the paperwork associated with them. But if countries are no longer letting the Avengers move around willy-nilly, then it raises the question of where Wanda could legally go. Tony's solution seemed to be that the Avengers compound is treated like international territory, so as long as Wanda remains there, she's fine, but if she steps outside, she'll be making an unauthorized entry into U.S. territory.
** As for not telling her about this ... knowing Tony, he probably figured that he'd be able to negotiate a more permanent solution to her residency status sooner rather than later. If he got that sorted out before Wanda decided to leave the compound for something, then she'd never know she was confined in the first place, and he could avoid an uncomfortable conversation.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while Steve may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may force him to have to choose between his friends. So it's a bit of an ignorance is bliss situation.

to:

*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while Steve may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may force him to have to choose between his friends. friends and he thought that if Tony never knew, he wouldn't have to deal with it. So it's a bit of an ignorance "ignorance is bliss bliss" situation.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* I read a few things online saying that the deal that Tony offered to Steve about him, Sam and Bucky was actually just a lie to try and get them to sign. I am confused because I remember hearing that RDJ said it in an interview, and I was wondering if it was true, if that is canon, like if the Russos or Feige said it as they would be WordOfGod to me. I thought if it was true it would make sense for it to be in the movie at some point to demonstrate how Tony is going down a dark path, so does anyone have confirmation and if RDJ is the only one who said it would you count that as canon?

to:

* I read a A few things online saying say that the deal that Tony offered to Steve about him, Sam and Bucky was actually just a lie to try and get them to sign. I am confused because I remember hearing that Apparently RDJ said it in an interview, and I was wondering if it was interview,so is this true, if that is canon, like if the Russos or Feige said it as they would be WordOfGod to me. I thought if WordOfGod. If it was true it would make sense for it to be in the movie at some point to demonstrate how Tony is going down a dark path, so does anyone have confirmation and if RDJ is the only one who said it would you count that as canon?



* One when Cap says in the letter locks can be replaced but maybe they shouldn't what does that mean? Does it mean that while Tony could shut all of the Anti-Accords people out of his life, Steve especially but maybe he shouldn't and try to reconcile at another point? Second Steve writes we all need family, the Avengers are yours maybe even more than mine. That confused me because of the Avengers who are on Earth during this movie. So not counting Thor and Bruce, it was initially divided with Rhodey, Vision and Nat with Tony and Wanda, Clint, and Sam with Steve. But Natasha changed sides, so shouldn't that mean that the Avengers are more Steve's than Tony's, or since only Tony and Vision are officially Avengers now that's why they are more his than Steve. Or does Steve not count Natasha letting him leave as changing sides, when to Tony it clearly does.

to:

* One when Cap says in the letter locks can be replaced but maybe they shouldn't what does that mean? Does it mean that while Tony could shut all of the Anti-Accords people out of his life, Steve especially but maybe he shouldn't and try to reconcile at another point? Second Steve writes we all need family, the Avengers are yours maybe even more than mine. That confused me because of Of the Avengers who are on Earth during this movie. So movie, sO not counting Thor and Bruce, it was initially divided with Rhodey, Vision and Nat with Tony and Wanda, Clint, and Sam with Steve. But Natasha changed sides, so shouldn't that mean that the Avengers are more Steve's than Tony's, or since only Tony and Vision are officially Avengers now that's why they are more his than Steve. Or does Steve not count Natasha letting him leave as changing sides, when to Tony it clearly does.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Considering he's confronting the Avengers as a group, Ross was throwing the collateral damage they caused as a team at them. If he wanted to confront them individually, he could have brought up [[Film/IronMan1 the Stark weapons the Ten Rings were using]], or [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier the freaking building Cap leveled with a crashing Helicarrier that almost certainly had SHIELD personnel in it]], or [[Film/TheIncredibleHulk most of Harlem]] as casualties.
** Except none of those examples were collateral damage done by the Avengers. If he had brought that up he would have been proving ironically case of necessary immediate action during global level threats. As well as questioning the oversight efficiency of government oversight in general. [[Film/IronMan1 The Stark weapons/Ten rings fiasco was not an Avengers event.]] It was the US military favourite arms manufacturer doing backroom dealing both under the American government's and Tony Stark's noses. Showing the inefficiency of government oversight when dealing with favored and influential companies. [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier The Helicarriers crashing into building with SHIELD personnel situation. ]] Occurred on mission stopping HYDRA from taking over the world with seconds to spare. HYDRA had already infiltrated multiple government agencies for decades without detection. If Steve team had tried to notify the correct people through the " proper" channels then their mission to stop HYDRA would have failed before it began. Because who knew who was listening in on those channels. Instead of hundreds of SHIELD personnel dying as collateral in stopping HYDRA, millions of innocents would have died and HYDRA would have taken over the world. Showing the necessity of immediate action despite collateral. [[Film/TheIncredibleHulk As for Harlem that was actually partially General Ross's fault for creating Abomination in his determination to catch Banner]], massive collateral damage that ironically he has yet to see consequences for. In fact the UN decided to let a man who used drone strikes on American soil as their enforcer. A man who has had no consequences or accountability for collatoral damage hunting a creature he helped create. Who ended the whole fiasco with a UN sanctioned promotion.


to:

** Considering he's confronting the Avengers as a group, Ross was throwing the collateral damage they caused as a team at them. If he wanted to confront them individually, he could have brought up [[Film/IronMan1 the Stark weapons the Ten Rings were using]], or [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier the freaking building Cap leveled with a crashing Helicarrier that almost certainly had SHIELD personnel in it]], or [[Film/TheIncredibleHulk [[Film/TheIncredibleHulk2008 most of Harlem]] as casualties.
** Except none of those examples were collateral damage done by the Avengers. If he had brought that up he would have been proving ironically case of necessary immediate action during global level threats. As well as questioning the oversight efficiency of government oversight in general. [[Film/IronMan1 The Stark weapons/Ten rings fiasco was not an Avengers event.]] It was the US military favourite arms manufacturer doing backroom dealing both under the American government's and Tony Stark's noses. Showing the inefficiency of government oversight when dealing with favored and influential companies. [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier The Helicarriers crashing into building with SHIELD personnel situation. ]] Occurred on mission stopping HYDRA from taking over the world with seconds to spare. HYDRA had already infiltrated multiple government agencies for decades without detection. If Steve team had tried to notify the correct people through the " proper" channels then their mission to stop HYDRA would have failed before it began. Because who knew who was listening in on those channels. Instead of hundreds of SHIELD personnel dying as collateral in stopping HYDRA, millions of innocents would have died and HYDRA would have taken over the world. Showing the necessity of immediate action despite collateral. [[Film/TheIncredibleHulk [[Film/TheIncredibleHulk2008 As for Harlem that was actually partially General Ross's fault for creating Abomination in his determination to catch Banner]], massive collateral damage that ironically he has yet to see consequences for. In fact the UN decided to let a man who used drone strikes on American soil as their enforcer. A man who has had no consequences or accountability for collatoral damage hunting a creature he helped create. Who ended the whole fiasco with a UN sanctioned promotion.

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Except none of those examples were collateral damage done by the Avengers. If he had brought that up he would have been proving ironically case of necessary immediate action during global level threats. As well as questioning the oversight efficiency of government oversight in general. [[Film/IronMan1 The Stark weapons/Ten rings fiasco was not an Avengers event.]] It was the US military favourite arms manufacturer doing backroom dealing both under the American government's and Tony Stark's noses. Showing the inefficiency of government oversight when dealing with favored and influential companies. [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier The Helicarriers crashing into building with SHIELD personnel situation. ]] Occurred on mission stopping HYDRA from taking over the world with seconds to spare. HYDRA had already infiltrated multiple government agencies for decades without detection. If Steve team had tried to notify the correct people through the " proper" channels then their mission to stop HYDRA would have failed before it began. Because who knew who was listening in on those channels. Instead of hundreds of SHIELD personnel dying as collateral in stopping HYDRA, millions of innocents would have died and HYDRA would have taken over the world. Showing the necessity of immediate action despite collateral. [[Film/TheIncredibleHulk As for Harlem that was actually partially General Ross's fault for creating Abomination in his determination to catch Banner]], massive collateral damage that ironically he has yet to see consequences for. In fact the UN decided to let a man who used drone strikes on American soil as their enforcer. A man who has had no consequences or accountability for collatoral damage hunting a creature he helped create. Who ended the whole fiasco with a UN sanctioned promotion.

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Unfortunately we can't tell if that actually was the government's perspective. From the way it was presented it was not here's a problem let us work together to find a solution. But you guy's are a problem, you will do as we say or you stop trying saving the world. Another factor is that it was a stop gap measure to a complex problem. The government's were looking for an easy solution to a complex situation for convivence which Steve would have noted they have done before ie, [[Film/TheAvengers2012 the attempted nuking of New York.]] Albeit a H.Y.D.R.A plan but signed off willingly by the World Security Council and to which Nick noted was a [[AscendedMeme "stupid ass decision." ]] It is doubtful that the World Council created the Accords to find a solution but seemed more a stop gap measure, they cant train the Avengers or heroes like Scarlet Witch because the only one's qualified are Avengers. From using a hard ass like Ross to sell it, it's more a take it or leave it because we want this solved half-assed with brute force if need be then general concern for the team readiness and training. A line of thinking that they haven't stopped using even post-snap as shown by their actions in regards to millions of persons displaced by the return of half the population, as shown in Series/TheFalconAndTheWinterSoldier.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** While talking to Steve, Tony says that Wanda is "contained", as if she was a criminal or weapon, which is what pissed off Steve more than anything else. When Hawkeye went to "rescue" her, she was hesitant until Vision started beating up on Clint, and after she attacks him it became beyond the point of no return. She was completely understanding on why she was kept there, but being under house arrest and not being talked to about it before hand left her upset and hurt over the incident.

to:

** While talking to Steve, Tony says that Wanda is "contained", as if she was a criminal or weapon, which is what pissed off Steve more than anything else. When Hawkeye went to "rescue" her, she was hesitant until Vision started beating up on Clint, and after she attacks him it became beyond the point of no return. She was completely understanding on why she was kept there, but being under house arrest and not being talked to about it before hand beforehand left her upset and hurt over the incident.



** Tony must have undergone some kind of cognitive dissonance if he really thought Wanda ''wanted'' to be in his GildedCage. The only reason she was there in the first place was because she had no idea she was being held against her will (only finding out when she tried to leave to go to a grocery store), and then she was guilt tripped by Vision to second guess herself and the control she had over her own powers. In the end she got out by herself. That is proof enough to indicate she very much didn't want to be there.

to:

** Tony must have undergone some kind of cognitive dissonance if he really thought Wanda ''wanted'' to be in his GildedCage. The only reason she was there in the first place was because she had no idea she was being held against her will (only finding out when she tried to leave to go to a grocery store), and then she was guilt tripped guilt-tripped by Vision to second guess second-guess herself and the control she had over her own powers. In the end end, she got out by herself. That is proof enough to indicate she very much didn't want to be there.

Added: 1331

Changed: 506

Removed: 371

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Most importantly, Tony didn't see the situation escalating like it did. For all Tony knew, Steve and the Falcon ran off with Bucky Barnes. If cooler heads prevail, they might even avoid a fight altogether. But in case it does, Peter's role is clear: Only engage the guy guaranteed to go easy him, from a distance if you can. He didn't know Cap was assembling a team to go on a mission he felt was vitally important. By the time he met them at the airport, he knows about Clint and Wanda being there, but that didn't seem to have happened until after his meeting with Peter. Now all of a sudden Cap has a force twice its original size and more than tripled in strength, and they're not backing down.

to:

** Most importantly, Tony didn't see the situation escalating like it did. For all Tony knew, Steve and the Falcon ran off with Bucky Barnes. If cooler heads prevail, they might even avoid a fight altogether. But in case it does, Peter's role is clear: Only engage the guy guaranteed to go easy on him, from a distance if you can. He didn't know Cap was assembling a team to go on a mission he felt was vitally important. By the time he met them at the airport, he knows about Clint and Wanda being there, but that didn't seem to have happened until after his meeting with Peter. Now all of a sudden Cap has a force twice its original size and more than tripled in strength, and they're not backing down.



** One thing that also complicates matter is that Rhodey is falling while his body is horizontal, which would slow Rhodey down, not by much but when you consider that both Falcon and Tony are using thrusters and going almost vertical, they should of caught up, the only way it makes sense is if they were not all that high up, also of note is that Tony himself has fallen with an unpowered suit and seemed to be okay, which makes it seem the suits had some form of compensators to basically mean that falling would be negligable, they seem to zigzag on how durable the suits are, the only thing I can think of is that his spine is actually healing and he only needs the leg braces until that finishes.

to:

** One thing that also complicates matter is that Rhodey is falling while his body is horizontal, which would slow Rhodey down, not by much but when you consider that both Falcon and Tony are using thrusters and going almost vertical, they should of have caught up, the only way it makes sense is if they were not all that high up, also of note is that Tony himself has fallen with an unpowered suit and seemed to be okay, which makes it seem the suits had some form of compensators to basically mean that falling would be negligable, they seem to zigzag on how durable the suits are, the only thing I can think of is that his spine is actually healing and he only needs the leg braces until that finishes.



** Clearly those two arrows were some sort of electricity attack arrows. If everything would have gone according to plan, Vision would have been outside, they would have escaped and arrows would have acted as a contingency distraction.

to:

** Clearly those two arrows were some sort of electricity attack arrows. If everything would have gone according to plan, Vision would have been outside, they would have escaped and the arrows would have acted as a contingency distraction.



** FridgeBrilliance: HYDRA was planning to use the stolen serum to endow five more of their assassins with super-soldier powers. Up until then, Bucky was their top enhanced assassin. Why ''wouldn't'' they arrange to record his attack on the Starks, so as to use the video as part of the new five-assassin team's training regimen? They probably planted cameras at the kill-site and inside the Starks' vehicle in advance, so they could capture every detail of how a super-powered asset carries out a hit. Even the closing image of Bucky shooting the camera makes sense, as it'd be a standard precaution the new team would need to emulate on future missions: a valuable lesson that's more than worth the price of one camera.

to:

** FridgeBrilliance: HYDRA was planning to use the stolen serum to endow five more of their assassins with super-soldier powers. Up until then, Bucky was their top enhanced assassin. Why ''wouldn't'' they arrange to record his attack on the Starks, so as to use the video as part of the new five-assassin team's training regimen? (We see the Red Room doing something similar to this in ''Film/BlackWidow2021'', where Taskmasker is introduced watching footage of the airport battle from ''Civil War'' for training purposes) They probably planted cameras at the kill-site and inside the Starks' vehicle in advance, so they could capture every detail of how a super-powered asset carries out a hit. Even the closing image of Bucky shooting the camera makes sense, as it'd be a standard precaution the new team would need to emulate on future missions: a valuable lesson that's more than worth the price of one camera.



** Given all the chaos and confusion going on, they probably put him in the first available and most secure cell until he could be transferred elsewhere.

to:

** Given all the chaos and confusion going on, and the fact we see him in a normal prison by the time of ''Series/TheFalconAndTheWinterSoldier'', they probably put him in the first available and most secure cell until he could be transferred elsewhere.



** The scene switch after Nat was talking to Black Panther shows Sharon giving Cap his and Falcon's gear that the CIA took custody of. My impression was that Nat knew Sharon was sweet on Cap and would be willing to smuggle out the gear to help him, Nat may have already figured out that it was Sharon who spilled the intel to Steve on locating Bucky in the first place. So simply place a tracker on Sharon...or say Cap's Shield...and BOOM you know where he is. Even if Nat didn't suspect Sharon, the Falcon's gear is Stark Tech therefore Tony should be able to track it.

to:

** The scene switch after Nat was talking to Black Panther shows Sharon giving Cap his and Falcon's gear that the CIA took custody of.confiscated from them. My impression was that Nat knew Sharon was sweet on Cap and would be willing to smuggle out the gear to help him, Nat may have already figured out that it was Sharon who spilled the intel to Steve on locating Bucky in the first place. So simply place a tracker on Sharon...or say Cap's Shield...and BOOM you know where he is. Even if Nat didn't suspect Sharon, the Falcon's gear is Stark Tech tech, therefore Tony should be able to track probably has a means of tracking it.



** Zemo said that Hydra deserved to fall. He was not a member of Hydra. But, considering his previous job, it's not surprising that he knows a lot ''about'' Hydra.

to:

** Zemo said that Hydra deserved to fall. He was not a member of Hydra. But, considering his previous job, job and his country having a HYDRA base, it's not surprising that he knows a lot ''about'' Hydra.HYDRA.



** Zemo would have had to be counting on Captain America recruiting allies telling them about the base and them but not Cap or Bucky getting caught and them being in a position where Tony could ask them later. Basically he'd have to be counting on the entire airport fight going down exactly as it did, which is impossible. If everyone had gotten away, then even when Tony finds out Bucky was set up, he's got no clue where Cap went because he's got nobody to ask. Meanwhile Cap's arriving at the base with a full Avengers team, and Wanda and Scott smashing the rocket shields apart to get to him. If Cap or Bucky gets caught, and a different combination of Avengers show up at Siberia instead, his video is worthless, because Tony either won't have Bucky within arms reach or won't have Cap to set him off by telling him he knew all along. Heck if any other players show up it could ruin everything. Rhodes or Peter could talk sense into Tony, and Vision or Wanda could restrain him easily unless everyone but Cap and Bucky get caught, and everyone else on Iron Man's team is either injured or had to leave for whatever reason like what happened in the movie. And he couldn't possibly have counted on all that.

to:

** Zemo would have had to be counting on Captain America recruiting allies and telling them about the base base, and them but not Cap or Bucky getting caught and them being in a position where Tony could ask them later. Basically he'd have to be counting on the entire airport fight going down exactly as it did, which is impossible. If everyone had gotten away, then even when Tony finds out Bucky was set up, he's got no clue where Cap went because he's got nobody to ask. Meanwhile Cap's arriving at the base with a full Avengers team, and Wanda and Scott smashing the rocket shields apart to get to him. If Cap or Bucky gets caught, and a different combination of Avengers show up at Siberia instead, his video is worthless, because Tony either won't have Bucky within arms reach or won't have Cap to set him off by telling him he knew all along. Heck if any other players show up it could ruin everything. Rhodes or Peter could talk sense into Tony, and Vision or Wanda could restrain him easily unless everyone but Cap and Bucky get caught, and everyone else on Iron Man's team is either injured or had to leave for whatever reason like what happened in the movie. And he couldn't possibly have counted on all that.



*** Well, Daniel Bruhl is German, so what we hear is actually his second language.

to:

*** Well, Daniel Bruhl Creator/DanielBruhl is German, so what we hear is actually his second language.



** ''Film/SpiderManHomecoming'' gives us the answer, although the [[TravelingAtTheSpeedOfPlot timing of everything is a bit off]]: Tony flew all the way back across the Atlantic to recruit Peter...but then didn't bring him back with him straight to Germany. Instead, Peter flew separately on a private jet with Happy, then still somehow had time to check into a hotel, go sightseeing in Berlin, stay the night at the hotel, then travel to Leipzig...all in under 24 hours as stated by Tony at the airport when they meet Cap.



** While talking to Steve, Tony says that Wanda is "contained", as if she was a criminal or weapon, which is what pissed off Steve more than anything else. When Hawkeye went to "rescue" her, she was hesitant until vision started beating up on Clint, and after she attacks him it became beyond the point of no return. She was completely understanding on why she was kept there, but being under house arrest and not being talked to about it before hand left her upset and hurt over the incident.

to:

** While talking to Steve, Tony says that Wanda is "contained", as if she was a criminal or weapon, which is what pissed off Steve more than anything else. When Hawkeye went to "rescue" her, she was hesitant until vision Vision started beating up on Clint, and after she attacks him it became beyond the point of no return. She was completely understanding on why she was kept there, but being under house arrest and not being talked to about it before hand left her upset and hurt over the incident.



** Vision is very new to living and not just being an AI at the time. Taking that into consideration, it's possible he was in a “finish the mission no matter what” kind of mindset. And no doubt Steve and Bucky would have survived the radio tower falling on them (after all, Steve’s shield did protect him and Natasha from a missile strike in ''Captain America: The Winter Soldier'', and he and Bucky have the super soldier reflexes that would make it possible for them to get out of the fall zone in time), but Natasha was also around there. Vision could have very well killed one of his own teammates.



** It's entirely possible that Bucky told Steve himself when he was explaining about the other Winter Soldiers, or at least gave Steve enough information to realize that Bucky was involved. "They were juiced up with the same stuff that made us, and I got it for the program by murdering Tony's parents."

to:

** It's entirely possible that Bucky told Steve and Sam himself when he was explaining about the other Winter Soldiers, or at least gave Steve enough information to realize that Bucky was involved. "They were juiced up with the same stuff that made us, and I got it for the program by murdering Tony's parents."



** Well, SHIELD probably investigated. And who controlled SHIELD? They just need to make it look close enough. Which also explains why no one mentioned the conveniently-shot camera a few feet away with the missing recording.
** He presumably broke her neck, and maybe smashed her head against the dashboard too, to make it look proper. With HYDRA controlling SHIELD, they would have altered the records and reports to make it look like she died in the accident. She was already suffering enough injuries that she couldn't move while the Winter Soldier was beating Howard to death, so it would have been easy to ignore the strangulation bruises.
** In any case, any competent investigation would have found foul play - cars rarely sverve off a road without a cause, aaaand with a bullet hole in the drivers window.

to:

** Well, SHIELD probably investigated. And who controlled SHIELD? HYDRA. They just need to make it look close enough. Which also explains why no one mentioned the conveniently-shot camera a few feet away with the missing recording.
** He presumably broke her neck, and maybe smashed her head against the dashboard too, to make it look proper. With HYDRA controlling SHIELD, they would have altered the could easily falisfy records and reports to make it look like she died in the accident. She was already suffering enough injuries that she couldn't move while the Winter Soldier was beating Howard to death, so it would have been easy to ignore the strangulation bruises.
** In any case, any competent investigation would have found foul play - cars rarely sverve off a road without a cause, aaaand with a bullet hole in the drivers driver's side window.



** It wasn't relevant in-story. Natasha is currently in hiding somewhere, and Steve is standing in front of Tony protecting the friend who he just learned is his parents' killer. Only Steve knows that Natasha knows, and there's no reason for him to reveal that to Tony in this scene.

to:

** It wasn't relevant in-story. Natasha is currently in hiding somewhere, (as seen in ''Black Widow''), and Steve is standing in front of Tony protecting the friend who he just learned is his parents' killer. Only Steve knows that Natasha knows, and there's no reason for him to reveal that to Tony in this scene.



** The later revelations in ''Series/TheFalconAndTheWinterSoldier'' that Sharon Carter is the Power Broker, and Zemo knows the Power Broker, raises the possibility that Zemo might've had some inside help.



* One when Cap says in the letter locks can be replaced but maybe they shouldn't what does that mean? Does it mean that while Tony could shut all of the Anti-Accords people out of his life, Steve especially but maybe he shouldn't and try to reconcile at another point? Second Steve writes we all need family, the Avengers are yours maybe even more than mine. That confused me because of the Avengers who are on Earth during this movie so not counting Thor and Bruce, it was initially divided with Rhodey, Vision and Nat with Tony and Wanda, Clint, and Sam with Steve. But Natasha changed sides, so shouldn't that mean that the Avengers are more Steve's than Tony's, or since only Tony and Vision are officially Avengers now that's why they are more his than Steve. Or does Steve not count Natasha letting him leave as changing sides, when to Tony it clearly does.

to:

* One when Cap says in the letter locks can be replaced but maybe they shouldn't what does that mean? Does it mean that while Tony could shut all of the Anti-Accords people out of his life, Steve especially but maybe he shouldn't and try to reconcile at another point? Second Steve writes we all need family, the Avengers are yours maybe even more than mine. That confused me because of the Avengers who are on Earth during this movie so movie. So not counting Thor and Bruce, it was initially divided with Rhodey, Vision and Nat with Tony and Wanda, Clint, and Sam with Steve. But Natasha changed sides, so shouldn't that mean that the Avengers are more Steve's than Tony's, or since only Tony and Vision are officially Avengers now that's why they are more his than Steve. Or does Steve not count Natasha letting him leave as changing sides, when to Tony it clearly does.




[[folder:Do the secret Avengers have a case against Ross for human rights violations?]]
* So the Raft is a walking laundry list of human rights violations, especially with regards to Wanda. If the members of Team Cap decided to sue Thaddeus Ross and take him to court over his violations of the Geneva Convention rules on prisoner treatment, would they prevail?
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:


[[folder:Do the secret Avengers have a case against Ross for human rights violations?]]
* So the Raft is a walking laundry list of human rights violations, especially with regards to Wanda. If the members of Team Cap decided to sue Thaddeus Ross and take him to court over his violations of the Geneva Convention rules on prisoner treatment, would they prevail?
[[/folder]]

Added: 926

Removed: 915

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



[[folder: Two things about Cap's letter at the end]]
* One when Cap says in the letter locks can be replaced but maybe they shouldn't what does that mean? Does it mean that while Tony could shut all of the Anti-Accords people out of his life, Steve especially but maybe he shouldn't and try to reconcile at another point? Second Steve writes we all need family, the Avengers are yours maybe even more than mine. That confused me because of the Avengers who are on Earth during this movie so not counting Thor and Bruce, it was initially divided with Rhodey, Vision and Nat with Tony and Wanda, Clint, and Sam with Steve. But Natasha changed sides, so shouldn't that mean that the Avengers are more Steve's than Tony's, or since only Tony and Vision are officially Avengers now that's why they are more his than Steve. Or does Steve not count Natasha letting him leave as changing sides, when to Tony it clearly does.


Added DiffLines:


[[folder: Two things about Cap's letter at the end]]
* One when Cap says in the letter locks can be replaced but maybe they shouldn't what does that mean? Does it mean that while Tony could shut all of the Anti-Accords people out of his life, Steve especially but maybe he shouldn't and try to reconcile at another point? Second Steve writes we all need family, the Avengers are yours maybe even more than mine. That confused me because of the Avengers who are on Earth during this movie so not counting Thor and Bruce, it was initially divided with Rhodey, Vision and Nat with Tony and Wanda, Clint, and Sam with Steve. But Natasha changed sides, so shouldn't that mean that the Avengers are more Steve's than Tony's, or since only Tony and Vision are officially Avengers now that's why they are more his than Steve. Or does Steve not count Natasha letting him leave as changing sides, when to Tony it clearly does.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added: 915

Changed: 6

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** While Tony trying to kill Bucky was definitely an irrational decision, the film never tries to paint him as justified and even Tony eventually realizes that he was in the wrong, as shown by his attitude in later films. The whole point of the scene is that he has RevengeOverReason on his mind, and this is what ultimately leads to the fall of the Avengers. T'Challa summed it up pretty well. "Vengeance has consumed you. It's consuming them."

to:

*** While Tony trying to kill Bucky was definitely an irrational decision, the film never tries to paint him as justified and even Tony eventually realizes that he was in the wrong, as shown by his attitude in later films. The whole point of the scene is that he has RevengeOverReason RevengeBeforeReason on his mind, and this is what ultimately leads to the fall of the Avengers. T'Challa summed it up pretty well. "Vengeance has consumed you. It's consuming them."


Added DiffLines:


[[folder: Two things about Cap's letter at the end]]
* One when Cap says in the letter locks can be replaced but maybe they shouldn't what does that mean? Does it mean that while Tony could shut all of the Anti-Accords people out of his life, Steve especially but maybe he shouldn't and try to reconcile at another point? Second Steve writes we all need family, the Avengers are yours maybe even more than mine. That confused me because of the Avengers who are on Earth during this movie so not counting Thor and Bruce, it was initially divided with Rhodey, Vision and Nat with Tony and Wanda, Clint, and Sam with Steve. But Natasha changed sides, so shouldn't that mean that the Avengers are more Steve's than Tony's, or since only Tony and Vision are officially Avengers now that's why they are more his than Steve. Or does Steve not count Natasha letting him leave as changing sides, when to Tony it clearly does.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** I think they would have an easy time doing so. It's actually harder than you realize for people to remember faces, especially considering for most people the Avengers are just a bunch of people whose names appear splashed across the news cycle every once in a while, so Steve, Wanda, Nat and Sam could easily perform activities in public without fear of being recognized. (It also helped that all of them save for Sam altered their appearances a bit: Wanda dyed her hair an auburn red, Natasha dyed her hair platinum blonde during the two week time skip at the end of ''Black Widow'', and Steve [[BeardnessProtectionProgram grew a beard and mustache]]).

to:

*** I think they would have an easy time doing so. It's actually harder than you realize for people to remember faces, especially considering for most people the Avengers are just a bunch of people whose names appear splashed across the news cycle every once in a while, so Steve, Wanda, Nat and Sam could easily perform activities in public without fear of being recognized. (It It also helped that all of them save for Sam altered their appearances a bit: Wanda bit (Wanda dyed her hair an auburn red, Natasha dyed her hair platinum blonde during the two week time skip at the end of ''Black Widow'', and Steve [[BeardnessProtectionProgram grew a beard and mustache]]).

Added: 705

Changed: 635

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** The thing is the Accords were never made about foreign borders, it was always about control. It was always about control of the Avengers. If they were about compromise, about working within reason and respect of sovereignty of other countries then Steve could have worked with that. Hell, the Avengers worked for years stopping massive threats to innocent lives and the UN didn't interfere until public outcry. Even then they didn't offer a real compromise or a working idea. They offered to tell the Avengers what is and what is not defined of a threat. If something is wrong, something so great a threat immediate and swift action needs to be taken. An out of context problem like HYDRA or Thanos. That's when the Avengers act. The Avengers operate only when needed, when its right to. Steve saw the Accords as a measure of control, not a measure of accountability. Also Ross was assigned by agreement of the UN, as the watchdog of the accords. Not a diplomat, not a lawyer. A man known for using excessive force to handle superhuamn problems. Then Steve and his group wariness about its message is warranted. As pointed out before, its about those who actually have power in the UN who decide what is right or wrong as long as not politically problematic. Against a soldier who sees something coming that is very wrong and acting on it. Also I don't think the accords are long for the World after Infinity War as the global community would most likely prefer that sort of global catastrophe be stopped post haste from now on. Instead of debated and defined ad nauseam, delaying action as Ross proved would happen.

to:

** The thing is the Accords were never made about foreign borders, it was always about control. It was always about control of the Avengers. If they were about compromise, about working within reason and respect of sovereignty of other countries then Steve could have worked with that. Hell, the Avengers worked for years stopping massive threats to innocent lives and the UN didn't interfere until public outcry. Even then they didn't offer a real compromise or a working idea. They offered to tell the Avengers what is and what is not defined of a threat. If something is wrong, something so great a threat immediate and swift action needs to be taken. An out of context problem like HYDRA or Thanos. That's when the Avengers act. The Avengers operate only when needed, when its right to. Steve saw the Accords as a measure of control, not a measure of accountability. Also Ross was assigned by agreement of the UN, as the watchdog of the accords. Not a diplomat, not a lawyer. A man known for using excessive force to handle superhuamn superhuman problems. Then Steve and his group wariness about its message is warranted. As pointed out before, its about those who actually have power in the UN who decide what is right or wrong as long as not politically problematic. Against a soldier who sees something coming that is very wrong and acting on it. Also I don't think the accords are long for the World after Infinity War as the global community would most likely prefer that sort of global catastrophe be stopped post haste from now on. Instead of debated and defined ad nauseam, delaying action as Ross proved would happen.



** The main problem with the Accords, and why it's considered by some a bad thing, is not the UN aspect but the aspect of those in power, corrupt or otherwise, defining what is and what is not something that needs to be Avengers-worthy. Corruption and agendas are a daily thing in the geopolitical landscape. Add to the fact the US appoitned General "use heavy ordnance on American soil, damn the collateral threat" Ross to be its main watchdog is a symptom of the problem. As for In-universe the Avengers operated for years globally without problems. Then collateral damage happened, suddenly everybody is concerned about borders and sovereignty. Which would be fine, except it comes across more about saving face and definitely opportunistic. Do they consult the Avengers before writing them up? Do they give them options or explain necessity of the Accords? No they send their watchdog, a man with thet subtlety of a sledgehammer, to tell them sign or retire. They tell the Avengers, Steve, to trust a system he knows can be corrupted or bought off to make the right moral choice over the more convenient choice. They use words like property damage and accountability but we know thanks to Thanos the cost of when the Avengers don't act. What kind of property damage or collateral damage Crossbones could have caused with that bioweapon on the open market? What kind of damage would happen if Project Insight had gone unchallenged and Steve went through all the red tape to get authority to take them on? The main problem with the Accords is not only trusting the UN, or those with power in the UN to make the right choice. But in a world where extinction-level threats happen on the fly, the Avengers are duty bound to respond. Collateral damage like property and death, are a cost of the reality of their work. A few versus the many is the hard math at play. If the UN could have given Steve a viable option to prevent that while allowing rapid response, he would have taken it. They didn't, and that is why he and the others chose what they did.

to:

** The main problem with the Accords, and why it's considered by some a bad thing, is not the UN aspect but the aspect of those in power, corrupt or otherwise, defining what is and what is not something that needs to be Avengers-worthy. Corruption and agendas are a daily thing in the geopolitical landscape. Add to the fact the US appoitned appointed General "use heavy ordnance on American soil, damn the collateral threat" Ross to be its main watchdog is a symptom of the problem. As for In-universe the Avengers operated for years globally without problems. Then collateral damage happened, suddenly everybody is concerned about borders and sovereignty. Which would be fine, except it comes across more about saving face and definitely opportunistic. Do they consult the Avengers before writing them up? Do they give them options or explain necessity of the Accords? No they send their watchdog, a man with thet subtlety of a sledgehammer, to tell them sign or retire. They tell the Avengers, Steve, to trust a system he knows can be corrupted or bought off to make the right moral choice over the more convenient choice. They use words like property damage and accountability but we know thanks to Thanos the cost of when the Avengers don't act. What kind of property damage or collateral damage Crossbones could have caused with that bioweapon on the open market? What kind of damage would happen if Project Insight had gone unchallenged and Steve went through all the red tape to get authority to take them on? The main problem with the Accords is not only trusting the UN, or those with power in the UN to make the right choice. But in a world where extinction-level threats happen on the fly, the Avengers are duty bound to respond. Collateral damage like property and death, are a cost of the reality of their work. A few versus the many is the hard math at play. If the UN could have given Steve a viable option to prevent that while allowing rapid response, he would have taken it. They didn't, and that is why he and the others chose what they did.



** Its gets worse, in ''Series/AgentsOfSHIELD'' it has been revealed that not only do the Avengers, have to sign and register, but any and all unregistered enhanced have to submit themselves for identification and documentation. Fingerprints, power base, personal history and details. Who you are, what you can do, your family, your friends, your blood type, where you live and where you work all taken down and stored in a government database. Basically, if you're powered or enhanced in any way and want to be left alone, you're out of luck. You will be documented and put on a list. They tell you it's a safe list but in the world of Edward Snowden, security leaks and hacking, you may have to take that with a pinch of salt. Not only that, who's to say that certain governments won't use this as leverage to [[BlackmailIsSuchAnUglyWord ''volunteer'' the services of those on the list for the interests of their Country]]. Or terrorist groups who manage to learn the identity of those enhanced and [[IHaveYourWife those they love, using this to force them to act as super-powered weapons]]. Or people like the [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Watchdogs and those like them]] who want to kill those different use the list as a target data base.

to:

** Its gets worse, in ''Series/AgentsOfSHIELD'' it has been revealed that not only do the Avengers, Avengers have to sign and register, but any and all unregistered enhanced have to submit themselves for identification and documentation. Fingerprints, power base, personal history and details. Who you are, what you can do, your family, your friends, your blood type, where you live and where you work all taken down and stored in a government database. Basically, if you're powered or enhanced in any way and just want to be left alone, you're out of luck. You will be documented and put on a list. They tell you it's a safe list but in the world of Edward Snowden, security leaks and hacking, you may have to take that with a pinch of salt. Not only that, who's to say that certain governments won't use this as leverage to [[BlackmailIsSuchAnUglyWord ''volunteer'' "volunteer"]] the services of those on the list for the interests of their Country]]. country? Or organized crime syndicates and terrorist groups who manage to learn the identity of those enhanced and [[IHaveYourWife those they love, using and use this to force them to act as super-powered weapons]]. weapons]]? Or people like the [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Watchdogs and those like them]] who want to kill those different use the list as a target data base. database?



* If Hydra had five more Winter Soldiers since early 90s, why have they not been brought out? Why didn't Pierce use them since they were apparently better than Bucky or Strucker use them against the Avengers. I understand if they could not be controlled, but from what Bucky mentioned, they were used on at least onermission and the flashback did show them brought back if they got out of control. I would accept it in Agents of Shield, they say that it was a cell of HYDRA who was exclusively using them, and was only being lent Bucky (which the others did not not know about) and the other Hydra cells had trouble trying to find year base. I am just wondering is all.

to:

* If Hydra had five more Winter Soldiers since early 90s, why have they not been brought out? Why didn't Pierce use them since they were apparently better than Bucky or Strucker use them against the Avengers. I understand if they could not be controlled, but from what Bucky mentioned, they were used on at least onermission one mission and the flashback did show them brought back if they got out of control. I would accept it in Agents of Shield, they say that it was a cell of HYDRA who was exclusively using them, and was only being lent Bucky (which the others did not not know about) and the other Hydra cells had trouble trying to find year base. I am just wondering is all.



** In Zola's presentation, we get a big hint that Bucky was the one who killed the Starks because the newspaper clippings on the Starks' deaths are juxtaposed with images of Bucky's metal arm. However we also have to remember the context of whats going on: this whole presentation was Zola taunting Steve while stalling him and Natasha so that they would be killed by the missile that hit like 1 minute after. Also, throughout the entire movie Steve was finding out and going through '''a lot''' of new information with little to no time to proccess anything. Including:

to:

** In Zola's presentation, we get a big hint that Bucky was the one who killed the Starks because the newspaper clippings on the Starks' deaths are juxtaposed with images of Bucky's metal arm. However we also have to remember the context of whats what's going on: this whole presentation was Zola taunting Steve while stalling him and Natasha so that they would be killed by the missile that hit like 1 minute after. was en route to blow them up. Also, throughout the entire movie movie, Steve was finding out and going through '''a lot''' of new information with little to no time to proccess process anything. Including:



*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may force him to have to choose between his friends. So it's a bit of an ignorance is bliss situation.

to:

*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while Steve may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may force him to have to choose between his friends. So it's a bit of an ignorance is bliss situation.



*** Even then, it looks like Wanda did use her telepathy at one moment in the fight, and it was when Rhodey gave Vision the order to shoot down Sam. It looks like pure luck that Sam dodged in the nick of time when Vision fired his beam, but given Wanda is right next to Vision, she probably heard Rhodey give the order to Vision and told Sam to duck.

to:

*** Even then, it looks like Wanda did use [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation might have]] used her telepathy at one moment in the fight, and it was when Rhodey gave Vision the order to shoot down Sam. It looks like might just be pure luck that Sam dodged in the nick of time when Vision fired his beam, but given Wanda is right next to Vision, Vision at the time, she probably would've heard Rhodey give the order to Vision and told had plenty of time to force her way into Sam's head to warn him "Vision's about to fire on you! Dodge now!" and Sam to duck.did so because he trusted his teammate.



*** ''Infinity War'' and ''Endgame'' have Sam using the exact same equipment he uses in ''Civil War'', while Wanda still has the same Avenger uniform she wore at the airport battle for the battles in Wakanda and upstate New York. This would mean that these possessions were confiscated during processing as they were being booked into the Raft. So they took a small detour to collect these things after Steve freed them from their cells. As for the Ant-Man suit, ''Film/AntManAndTheWasp'' establishes that Scott shrank the suit down and had it mailed home before he surrendered because he respected Hank enough to know how much Hank didn't want his technology falling into the hands of someone like Ross.



*** I think they would have an easy time doing so. It's actually harder than you realize for people to remember faces, especially considering for most people the Avengers are just a bunch of people whose names appear splashed across the news cycle every once in a while, so Steve, Wanda, Nat and Sam could easily perform activities in public without fear of being recognized.

to:

*** I think they would have an easy time doing so. It's actually harder than you realize for people to remember faces, especially considering for most people the Avengers are just a bunch of people whose names appear splashed across the news cycle every once in a while, so Steve, Wanda, Nat and Sam could easily perform activities in public without fear of being recognized. (It also helped that all of them save for Sam altered their appearances a bit: Wanda dyed her hair an auburn red, Natasha dyed her hair platinum blonde during the two week time skip at the end of ''Black Widow'', and Steve [[BeardnessProtectionProgram grew a beard and mustache]]).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
remove first person language


* I know Scott is a fanboy of Captain America and the Avengers, but he's also a felon on probation who just spent his first movie trying to reform himself and be there for his daughter. It's sheer luck that Paxton came around and gave him a second chance, but why throw that second chance away, even if it's Captain America asking for help?

to:

* I know Scott is a fanboy of Captain America and the Avengers, but he's also a felon on probation who just spent his first movie trying to reform himself and be there for his daughter. It's sheer luck that Paxton came around and gave him a second chance, but why throw that second chance away, even if it's Captain America asking for help?



* Also, thinking that the peak human term in comics is close to normal real life humans is a fallacy, since even supposedly ordinary humans in comics have done things that would require superhuman strength, like [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99951/2845521-hawkeye_lifting_a_cab_new_avengers_5_legion_cps_012.jpg Hawkeye flipping a car with one hand]]. As for comic Cap, he has [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3444501-overhead+1.jpg effortlessly carried away bikes]], [[http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/raykongs/Cappullsdownhelicopter_zpsa193ea57.png pulled a helicopter out of the air]] (yeah I know, makes no sense from a physics standpoint), [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101999/3695237-captainamericastopscar.jpg stopping cold a speeding car with teen Bucky's help]] and [[http://s498.photobucket.com/user/darthgoober/media/SecretDefenders07-03.jpg.html catches a falling tree]]. That's for raw strength, for striking you need no more than [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101999/3060335-cap19.jpg Steve in civilian clothes beating the crap out of this robot]] or [[http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80103/3888745-9445853892-12104.jpg punching a berserk Wolverine through a car roof]] or [[http://i.imgur.com/slP3o6C.jpg kicking through an armored door]]. Heck, Steve [[DePower without the benefit]] of the Super Soldier Serum [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3242990-6036020165-steve.jpg hit a guy using a shotgun as a club hard enough to dent the metal box he hit]]. I seriously doubt MCU Cap has done anything that comic Cap can't replicate, or in some occasions hasn't already done.

to:

* Also, thinking that the peak human term in comics is close to normal real life humans is a fallacy, since even supposedly ordinary humans in comics have done things that would require superhuman strength, like [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99951/2845521-hawkeye_lifting_a_cab_new_avengers_5_legion_cps_012.jpg Hawkeye flipping a car with one hand]]. As for comic Cap, he has [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3444501-overhead+1.jpg effortlessly carried away bikes]], [[http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/raykongs/Cappullsdownhelicopter_zpsa193ea57.png pulled a helicopter out of the air]] (yeah I know, makes no sense from a physics standpoint), air]], [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101999/3695237-captainamericastopscar.jpg stopping cold a speeding car with teen Bucky's help]] and [[http://s498.photobucket.com/user/darthgoober/media/SecretDefenders07-03.jpg.html catches a falling tree]]. That's for raw strength, for striking you need no more than [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101999/3060335-cap19.jpg Steve in civilian clothes beating the crap out of this robot]] or [[http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80103/3888745-9445853892-12104.jpg punching a berserk Wolverine through a car roof]] or [[http://i.imgur.com/slP3o6C.jpg kicking through an armored door]]. Heck, Steve [[DePower without the benefit]] of the Super Soldier Serum [[http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3242990-6036020165-steve.jpg hit a guy using a shotgun as a club hard enough to dent the metal box he hit]]. I seriously doubt MCU Cap has done anything that comic Cap can't replicate, or in some occasions hasn't already done.



** I kind of thought that Tony didn't fully trust anything from Steve about Bucky, until he got the proof that Zemo killed the psychiatrist and replied to the previous line that Steve gave about how they were going after Zemo with your judgment is askew, which considering what has happened so far is kind of reasonable.

to:

** I kind of thought that Tony didn't fully trust anything from Steve about Bucky, until he got the proof that Zemo killed the psychiatrist and replied to the previous line that Steve gave about how they were going after Zemo with your judgment is askew, which considering what has happened so far is kind of reasonable.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** I kind of thought that Tony didn't fully trust anything from Steve about Bucky, until he got the proof that Zemo killed the psychiatrist and replied to the previous line that Steve gave about how they were going after Zemo with your judgment is askew, which considering what has happened so far is kind of reasonable.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may force him to have to choose between his friends.

to:

*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may force him to have to choose between his friends. So it's a bit of an ignorance is bliss situation.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may lead him to have to choose between his friends.

to:

*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have to face the uncomfortable truth that may lead force him to have to choose between his friends.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Well, technically even if Ross knows of their existence now, Tony wouldn't tell him any further. Also ''Film/AvengersInfinityWar'' and ''Film/AvengersEndgame'' shows that he took a plea deal and went back to the farm so the biggest thing that could come from Tony doing that is now worthless as Ross can't use them as collateral against the other on the run heroes and now presumably doesn't care anymore.

to:

** Well, technically even if Ross knows of their existence now, Tony wouldn't tell him any further. Also ''Film/AvengersInfinityWar'' and ''Film/AvengersEndgame'' shows establish that he took a plea deal and went back to the farm so the biggest thing that could come from Tony doing that is now worthless as Ross can't use them as collateral against the other on the run heroes and now presumably doesn't care anymore.



** Most of the world thinks it's extremely rare, which is why Wakandaguards what they have so diligently. In fact back in the 1940s, the SSR thought that there was only enough to make one shield. It is possible using its enhanced technology, hidden fortune and operatives they have managed to sell itself as a country with nothing of interest and the only thing of interest (Vibranium) has mostly been depleted and stolen. They could have also used their hidden wealth and operatives not to mention advanced technology to divert interest when need be. They have also managed to use stealth technology to hide a whole country and what they truly have much like the [[Film/WonderWoman2017 Amazons back in Themiscyra.]] Wakanda used technology to hide themselves and what they really had from the world. Their fortune to buy influence around the world. Influence and technology to sell the illusion of what the world sees, a simple country with little of interest. It helps that they sold themselves as a small African kingdom of no importance except one, and that one thing may already be depleted beyond interest i.e all of it was used to create Ultron. A train of thought the Wakandans would have encouraged, for they know if the world knew that they had a literal mountain of vibranium that the world's governments would try to secure the [[NoBloodForPhlebotinum vibranium for themselves by force or guile.]]

to:

** Most of the world thinks it's extremely rare, which is why Wakandaguards Wakanda guards what they have so diligently. In fact back in the 1940s, the SSR thought that there was only enough to make one shield. It is possible using its enhanced technology, hidden fortune and operatives they have managed to sell itself as a country with nothing of interest and the only thing of interest (Vibranium) has mostly been depleted and stolen. They could have also used their hidden wealth and operatives not to mention advanced technology to divert interest when need be. They have also managed to use stealth technology to hide a whole country and what they truly have much like the [[Film/WonderWoman2017 Amazons back in Themiscyra.]] Wakanda used technology to hide themselves and what they really had from the world. Their fortune to buy influence around the world. Influence and technology to sell the illusion of what the world sees, a simple country with little of interest. It helps that they sold themselves as a small African kingdom of no importance except one, and that one thing may already be depleted beyond interest i.e all of it was used to create Ultron. A train of thought the Wakandans would have encouraged, for they know if the world knew that they had a literal mountain of vibranium that the world's governments would try to secure the [[NoBloodForPhlebotinum vibranium for themselves by force or guile.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** There was a scene in ''Age of Ultron'' where Wandaused her powers from a distance to warn the Sokovians to evacuate. The new team just wanted to downplay the telepathic powers as much as possible without actually retconning them out, so they're never used or mentioned. Strictly speaking there's no explanation for why she isn't using it.

to:

** There was a scene in ''Age of Ultron'' where Wandaused Wanda used her powers from a distance to warn the Sokovians to evacuate. The new team just wanted to downplay the telepathic powers as much as possible without actually retconning them out, so they're never used or mentioned. Strictly speaking there's no explanation for why she isn't using it.



** Even though everyone is fighting, it's clear that they're pulling punches and not going all out like it's a real fight; nobody (except Black Panther) really wanted anyone to get seriously hurt. Even when Wanda chides Hawkeye for pulling punches against Black Widow, you'll notice that she merely threw Black Widow into a structure, rater than destroying her with telekinesis. Wanda's [[StoryBreakerPower game breaking powers]] would probably have ended the battle swiftly, but after the events of ''Age of Ultron'', using her telepathy powers to reach into her friends' minds would be a gross invasion of privacy and almost seen as a dirty trick, and would almost certainly burn bridges with the pro-reg side. Remember, Wanda desperately wants these people NOT to be afraid of her - psychically torturing them in what isn't a life-or-death fight would certainly go against this goal.

to:

** Even though everyone is fighting, it's clear that they're pulling punches and not going all out like it's a real fight; nobody (except Black Panther) really wanted anyone to get seriously hurt. Even when Wanda chides Hawkeye for pulling punches against Black Widow, you'll notice that she merely threw Black Widow into a structure, rater rather than destroying her with telekinesis. Wanda's [[StoryBreakerPower game breaking powers]] would probably have ended the battle swiftly, but after the events of ''Age of Ultron'', using her telepathy powers to reach into her friends' minds would be a gross invasion of privacy and almost seen as a dirty trick, and would almost certainly burn bridges with the pro-reg side. Remember, Wanda desperately wants these people NOT to be afraid of her - psychically torturing them in what isn't a life-or-death fight would certainly go against this goal.



** People say this a lot, but fact of the matter is most hi-tech jets and vehicles don't have keys or security protection, with the idea being it's possible you might need that in the air within seconds and the quicker it starts up the better, meanwhile most security forces are capable of repelling anyone who would want to steal it. Tony could have security features installed, but he apparently doesn't since even Ultron with his ability to interface shut down by Vision was able to manually fly the jet in Age of Ultron. And while maybe Tony should have been inspired to secure it because of that, there's also the opposite problem. That they need the Quinjet in the air but the only person able to get to it isn't someone that can bypass the security lock like a civilian or something. Tony clearly is more worried about the second possibility than the first, which leaves it at risk for theft, but there's no perfect solution.

to:

** People say this a lot, but fact of the matter is most hi-tech jets and vehicles don't have keys or security protection, with the idea being it's possible you might need that in the air within seconds and the quicker it starts up the better, meanwhile most security forces are capable of repelling anyone who would want to steal it. Tony could have security features installed, but he apparently doesn't since even Ultron with his ability to interface shut down by Vision was able to manually fly the jet in Age ''Age of Ultron.Ultron''. And while maybe Tony should have been inspired to secure it because of that, there's also the opposite problem. That they need the Quinjet in the air but the only person able to get to it isn't someone that can bypass the security lock like a civilian or something. Tony clearly is more worried about the second possibility than the first, which leaves it at risk for theft, but there's no perfect solution.



** Most aircraft, even advanced ones, don't need keys. There's maybe a key to the door, probably one to the hangar, but generally turning on aircraft is a matter of a few switches and button presses. Knowing Tony, there's probably some sort of facial recognition or biometric security or something on there, but Tony probably hasn't had the chance to - or didn't want to have to - remove Steve from the list of authorized users.

to:

** Most aircraft, even advanced ones, don't need keys. There's maybe a key to the door, probably one to the hangar, but generally turning on aircraft is a matter of a few switches and button presses. Knowing Tony, there's probably some sort of facial recognition or biometric security or something on there, ''Film/ThorRagnarok'' establishes that the Avengers' Quinjets do have biometrics and require voice activation, but Tony probably hasn't had the chance to - or didn't want to have to - remove Steve from the list of authorized users.



* At the end of Age Of Ultron we see that the Avengers have hired a fairly large support team. Techs, soldiers. Fury and Hill coordinating, Cho and Selvig on science. Then in Civil War it's down to just the heroes. Not even Hill/Cho like in [=AoU=], where did they go?
** They're working out of other locations, or on other projects, or maybe they're just on call for the Avengers. Cho has her lab in Korea, and Selvig had some sort of a teaching position in Age of Ultron.

to:

* At the end of Age ''Age Of Ultron Ultron'' we see that the Avengers have hired a fairly large support team. Techs, soldiers. Fury and Hill coordinating, Cho and Selvig on science. Then in Civil War ''Civil War'', it's down to just the heroes. Not even Hill/Cho like in [=AoU=], where did they go?
** They're working out of other locations, or on other projects, or maybe they're just on call for the Avengers. Cho has her lab in Korea, and Selvig had some sort of a teaching position in Age ''Age of Ultron.Ultron''.



** He was living in a secluded house in Cleveland and seemed to have isolated himself on purpose, as any RetiredMonster terrorist group agent would. He wouldn't have found much help and probably wouldn't have wanted any. Besides, he sounded like a fanatic and made the conscious choice to die.

to:

** He was living in a secluded house in Cleveland and seemed to have isolated himself on purpose, as any RetiredMonster terrorist group agent would. He wouldn't have found much help and probably wouldn't have wanted any. Besides, he Karpov, like many HYDRA agents, sounded like a fanatic and made the conscious choice to die.



** Well, technically even if Ross knows of their existence now, Tony wouldn't tell him any further. Also ''Film/AvengersInfinityWar'' shows that he took a plea deal and went back to the farm so the biggest thing that could come from Tony doing that is now worthless as Ross can't use them as collateral against the other on the run heroes and now presumably doesn't care anymore.

to:

** Well, technically even if Ross knows of their existence now, Tony wouldn't tell him any further. Also ''Film/AvengersInfinityWar'' and ''Film/AvengersEndgame'' shows that he took a plea deal and went back to the farm so the biggest thing that could come from Tony doing that is now worthless as Ross can't use them as collateral against the other on the run heroes and now presumably doesn't care anymore.



* ''Film/BlackPanther'' made it clear that the entire world saw Wakanda as a small, backwards nation with nothing to offer. In this film, King T'Chaka announces that "stolen Wakandan vibranium" was used to create Ultimus and destroy Sokovia, and no one bats an eye. If everyone knows Wakanda has a supply of one of the most impossibly valuable materials on Earth and everyone thinks Wakanda is a helpless backwater, how is Wakanda not visibly always under attack by hostile powers trying to take their vibranium? Alternatively, how does everyone not already know that Wakanda is an unstoppable super power?
** Most of the world thinks it's extremely rare which is why the Wakandan government guards what they have so diligently. In fact back in the 1940s they thought that there was only enough to make one shield. It is possible using it's enhanced technology, hidden fortune and operatives they have managed to sell itself as a country with nothing of interest and the only thing of interest (Vibranium) has mostly been depleted and stolen. They could have also used their hidden wealth and operatives not to mention advanced technology to divert interest when need be. They have also managed to use stealth technology to hide a whole country and what they truly have much like the [[Film/WonderWoman2017 Amazons back in Themiscyra.]] Wakanda used technology to hide themselves and what they really had from the world. Their fortune to buy influence around the world. Influence and technology to sell the illusion of what the world sees, a simple country with little of interest. It helps that they sold themselves as a small African kingdom of no importance except one, and that one thing may already be depleted beyond interest i.e all of it was used to create Ultron. A train of thought the Wakadans would have encouraged, for they know if the world knew that they had a literal mountain of vibranium. Then the worlds governments would try to secure the [[NoBloodForPhlebotinum vibrinium for themselves by force or guile.]]

to:

* ''Film/BlackPanther'' made it clear that the entire world saw Wakanda as a small, backwards nation with nothing to offer. In this film, King T'Chaka announces that "stolen Wakandan vibranium" was used to create Ultimus Ultron and destroy Sokovia, and no one bats an eye. If everyone knows Wakanda has a supply of one of the most impossibly valuable materials on Earth and everyone thinks Wakanda is a helpless backwater, how is Wakanda not visibly always under attack by hostile powers trying to take their vibranium? Alternatively, how does everyone not already know that Wakanda is an unstoppable super power?
** Most of the world thinks it's extremely rare rare, which is why the Wakandan government guards Wakandaguards what they have so diligently. In fact back in the 1940s they 1940s, the SSR thought that there was only enough to make one shield. It is possible using it's its enhanced technology, hidden fortune and operatives they have managed to sell itself as a country with nothing of interest and the only thing of interest (Vibranium) has mostly been depleted and stolen. They could have also used their hidden wealth and operatives not to mention advanced technology to divert interest when need be. They have also managed to use stealth technology to hide a whole country and what they truly have much like the [[Film/WonderWoman2017 Amazons back in Themiscyra.]] Wakanda used technology to hide themselves and what they really had from the world. Their fortune to buy influence around the world. Influence and technology to sell the illusion of what the world sees, a simple country with little of interest. It helps that they sold themselves as a small African kingdom of no importance except one, and that one thing may already be depleted beyond interest i.e all of it was used to create Ultron. A train of thought the Wakadans Wakandans would have encouraged, for they know if the world knew that they had a literal mountain of vibranium. Then vibranium that the worlds world's governments would try to secure the [[NoBloodForPhlebotinum vibrinium vibranium for themselves by force or guile.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have the face the uncomfortable truth that may lead him to have to choose between his friends.

to:

*** In his letter at the end, Steve says "I guess I thought by not telling you about your parents I was sparing you, but I can see now that I was really sparing myself, and I'm sorry." This suggests that while may not have known 100% that Bucky did it, he did logically deduce that it was the most likely outcome and that he didn't look into to it further or want to bring it up to Tony because, subconsciously, he didn't want to have the to face the uncomfortable truth that may lead him to have to choose between his friends.

Top