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Changed line(s) 78 (click to see context) from:
*** People have no idea Stark created Ultron, that Wanda influenced him, or that the battle of New York was caused because of Loki's anger towards Thor. Plus the loss of SHIELD is likely not a price to high to save the life of potencially millions of people.
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*** People have no idea Stark created Ultron, that Wanda influenced him, or that the battle of New York was caused because of Loki's anger towards Thor. Plus the loss of SHIELD is likely not a price to too high to save the life of potencially millions of people.
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***People have no idea Stark created Ultron, that Wanda influenced him, or that the battle of New York was caused because of Loki's anger towards Thor. Plus the loss of SHIELD is likely not a price to high to save the life of potencially millions of people.
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** Proportional strength of a spider means a lot more than you might think- the kid can lift trucks. He's fast enough to dodge bullets occasionally with his spider-sense, and is probably a match for most of Cap's team, apart from Scarlet Witch. In a world with as few superhumans as the MCU, having Spider-Man on side is a really good thing for Tony.
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[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why Spidey?]]
* Fanservice and original comic aside, why would Stark involve a 15-year-old kid with wall crawling and web shooters in a brutal conflict between superpowered special forces personnel?
[[folder: Why Spidey?]]
* Fanservice and original comic aside, why would Stark involve a 15-year-old kid with wall crawling and web shooters in a brutal conflict between superpowered special forces personnel?
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*** Declared a US Citizen to be the property of the US Government, in violation of the 13th Amendment and his soldier's oath to uphold the Constitution.
**** He might have gotten special permission, seeing as the NYPD is part of the force used in the New York City mission, he seemed to have clearance to operate stateside.
**** There's a Brazilian soldier or police officer in the command vehicle with Ross, so he had some sort of official permission to be there.
**** Ross states Banner stole military secrets, (which I suppose he did technically, by being a test subject for an army experiment and then not allowing the results to be collected) and was implicated in several deaths not connected to the initial accident. (some hunters, state troopers, and a Canadian Mountie)
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*** Why is he not in Leavenworth again? And how did he get approved to run America's diplomats when he personally is responsible for a major diplomatic incident?
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Changed line(s) 74 (click to see context) from:
* According to the trailer the gobvernment is blaming the superheroes for the disasters in New York, Washington D.C. and Sokovia, but in NY the destruction was caused by the Chitauris Loki brought, the D.C. one was because HYDRA took a Helicarrier which inevitably would end in disaster, and the Sokovia one wouldn't have happened if Ultron didn't levitate the city. So why are they blaming the superheroes? how did they expected ithem to end? Did they expect them to just sit and watch while innocents were killed? I mean, it's not like if they destroyed those cities likie Superman did.
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* According to the trailer the gobvernment government is blaming the superheroes for the disasters in New York, Washington D.C. and Sokovia, but in NY the destruction was caused by the Chitauris Chitaur Loki brought, the D.C. one was because HYDRA took a Helicarrier which inevitably would end in disaster, and the Sokovia one wouldn't have happened if Ultron didn't levitate the city. So why are they blaming the superheroes? how did they expected ithem them to end? Did they expect them to just sit and watch while innocents were killed? I mean, it's not like if they destroyed those cities likie like Superman did.did.
** Loki (and Chituri) specifically targeted Earth because it was important to Thor; HYDRA's threat was removed, but at the cost of Cap deliberately destroying SHIELD and the government's intelligence/survellience network, with Bucky as Cap's best friend yet brainwashed only goes so far to excuse him; Ultron was created by Tony, who while affected by Wanda, has also turned hero. Indirectly, these attacks and issues all have their ties to the heroes, even if done by villain hands - it seems easiest to blame them, especially since they're in the here and now, and ''available'', when they can't touch Loki; they're hunting down HYDRA + Bucky; and Ultron is dead.
** Loki (and Chituri) specifically targeted Earth because it was important to Thor; HYDRA's threat was removed, but at the cost of Cap deliberately destroying SHIELD and the government's intelligence/survellience network, with Bucky as Cap's best friend yet brainwashed only goes so far to excuse him; Ultron was created by Tony, who while affected by Wanda, has also turned hero. Indirectly, these attacks and issues all have their ties to the heroes, even if done by villain hands - it seems easiest to blame them, especially since they're in the here and now, and ''available'', when they can't touch Loki; they're hunting down HYDRA + Bucky; and Ultron is dead.
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[[/folder]]
[[folder: Blaming who???]]
* According to the trailer the gobvernment is blaming the superheroes for the disasters in New York, Washington D.C. and Sokovia, but in NY the destruction was caused by the Chitauris Loki brought, the D.C. one was because HYDRA took a Helicarrier which inevitably would end in disaster, and the Sokovia one wouldn't have happened if Ultron didn't levitate the city. So why are they blaming the superheroes? how did they expected ithem to end? Did they expect them to just sit and watch while innocents were killed? I mean, it's not like if they destroyed those cities likie Superman did.
[[folder: Blaming who???]]
* According to the trailer the gobvernment is blaming the superheroes for the disasters in New York, Washington D.C. and Sokovia, but in NY the destruction was caused by the Chitauris Loki brought, the D.C. one was because HYDRA took a Helicarrier which inevitably would end in disaster, and the Sokovia one wouldn't have happened if Ultron didn't levitate the city. So why are they blaming the superheroes? how did they expected ithem to end? Did they expect them to just sit and watch while innocents were killed? I mean, it's not like if they destroyed those cities likie Superman did.
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** I would say its a combination of Ross having friends in high places (which was how he got the revised super soldier serum in the first place I think), people in government thinking he was right about the Hulk being the property of the government or the threat Banner posed justified in the actions/crimes he committed, Ross blamed Blonsky for how out of control things got, Hydra strings being pulled (they might see him as being useful tool in the future for creating chaos or containing the Hulk), and good old dislike of Stark (who has been unpopular with the U.S. government since he started doing Iron Man thing) and Banner to take their word seriously, and some cover up. I'm sure Ross getting in this position and escaping punishment despite everything he did is going to be used to add fuel to why Cap doesn't think governments should have full control of the superhero crowd.
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Changed line(s) 68 (click to see context) from:
** Blonsky isn't, but Leonard Samson is, as is Banner for the period where he was an upstanding member of the Avengers, as is his pal Tony Stark and anyone else on the team Banner told his story to. Basically there is no damn good reason why Ross got his position. That is, unless something very bad is going on behind the scenes.
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** Blonsky isn't, but Leonard Samson is, as is Banner for the period where he was an upstanding member of the Avengers, as is his pal Tony Stark and anyone else on the team Banner told his story to. Basically there is no damn good reason why Ross got his position.is not only a free man, but one of the most powerful men in the country. That is, unless something very bad is going on behind the scenes.
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** Blonsky isn't, but Leonard Samson is, as is Banner for the period where he was an upstanding member of the Avengers, as is his pal Tony Stark and anyone else on the team Banner told his story to. Basically there is no damn good reason why Ross got his position. That is, unless something very bad is going on behind the scenes.
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** Blonsky did that -- after assaulting a superior officer and going against Ross's orders. Remember Ross said he'd pull Blonsky off if he got out of hand. Also Ross was publicly seen helping the Hulk ''stop'' the Abomination. Remember that the public does not see all we see or know all we know. All it would've taken was Ross calling in some favors to turn the story into, "It's all Blonsky's fault for taking a serum we were trying to contain and destroy," and Ross's career survives. It's not like Blonsky was in a position to dispute things.
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*** Yes, but usually not guys personally responsible for turning a well-known American neighborhood to rubble.
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** Are you unfamiliar with American politics? Stupid assholes get put in charge of stuff all the time.
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Changed line(s) 63 (click to see context) from:
* The man is not known for being a decent human being, nor is he known for his intelligence. His own daughter has disowned him. It makes sense that he might be a bt of a hypocrite on top of everything else.
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* The man is not known for being a decent human being, nor is he known for his intelligence. His own daughter has disowned him. It makes sense that he might be a bt bit of a hypocrite on top of everything else.else.
** Understatement of the year. Still doesn't explain who thought it would be a good idea to put this monumentally stupid asshole in charge.
** Understatement of the year. Still doesn't explain who thought it would be a good idea to put this monumentally stupid asshole in charge.
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** There were also rumors a while back that one character will be TheMole for the other team. It's up in the air for who that person might be, but Widow is a candidate.
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* The man is not known for being a decent human being, nor is he known for his intelligence. His own daughter has disowned him. It makes sense that he might be a bt of a hypocrite on top of everything else.
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**** Furthermore there appear to have never been any formal charges filed against Dr. Banner in the first place. The accident he was involved in was classified as just that: an accident. So were the deaths associated with it. He has used military personnel to personally harass a private citizen.
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*** Declared a US Citizen to be the property of the US Government, in violation of the 13th Amendment and his oath to the Constitution.
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*** Declared a US Citizen to be the property of the US Government, in violation of the 13th Amendment and his soldier's oath to uphold the Constitution.
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** To list the misdeeds he hasn't been shown to be held accountable for, he has:
*** Declared a US Citizen to be the property of the US Government, in violation of the 13th Amendment and his oath to the Constitution.
*** Used military personnel for a criminal manhunt, in violation of federal law.
*** Sent military personnel into a friendly foreign nation (Which has an active extradition treaty with the US) to extract a fugitive without even trying to use standard channels, in violation of federal law and just about every known precept of diplomacy.
*** Reactivating a super-soldier program that Congress had explicitly ordered him to stop, creating a monster who trashed a good chunk of Harlem.
*** Why is he not in Leavenworth again? And how did he get approved to run America's diplomats when he personally is responsible for a major diplomatic incident?
*** Declared a US Citizen to be the property of the US Government, in violation of the 13th Amendment and his oath to the Constitution.
*** Used military personnel for a criminal manhunt, in violation of federal law.
*** Sent military personnel into a friendly foreign nation (Which has an active extradition treaty with the US) to extract a fugitive without even trying to use standard channels, in violation of federal law and just about every known precept of diplomacy.
*** Reactivating a super-soldier program that Congress had explicitly ordered him to stop, creating a monster who trashed a good chunk of Harlem.
*** Why is he not in Leavenworth again? And how did he get approved to run America's diplomats when he personally is responsible for a major diplomatic incident?
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** He becomes Secretary of State, so nothing overtly negative happened to him.
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**Zero accountability? We don't know what happened to Ross in the years between TIH and CW.
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** The Doylist answer is the directors/writers wanted Ross in the movie so The Incredible Hulk film from Phase 1 was more connected to the overall MCU. The reasoning in-universe seems to be that Ross realized he had the wrong approach and changed tactics from overwhelming military force to using political pressure to get his way.
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[[folder: General Ross]]
* I really don't have a problem with the accountability speech from the trailer except it's being delivered by ''General Ross!'' This guy operated with ''zero'' accountability in his pursuit of the Hulk to the point where he created a monster ''far'' more destructive than the Hulk ever was. He's the last person to be able to lecture someone on the subject. What idiot thought it was a good idea to put this asshole in charge!?
* I really don't have a problem with the accountability speech from the trailer except it's being delivered by ''General Ross!'' This guy operated with ''zero'' accountability in his pursuit of the Hulk to the point where he created a monster ''far'' more destructive than the Hulk ever was. He's the last person to be able to lecture someone on the subject. What idiot thought it was a good idea to put this asshole in charge!?
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*** We know the Avengers got back together sometime after the events of Winter Soldier to track down Loki's scepter and take down Hydra. According to Age of Ultron they had been doing that for months. That is the time frame where Steve and Tony started to become friends. While I agree that Age of Ultron did not do as much as it could done to show Tony and Steve had developed a closer bond/friendship there might be an argument that there were subtle clues to an improved relationship. Cap was annoyed with how Tony joked a lot during the mission in Avengers. During the Hydra raid at Tony made a joke about language thing, but Steve for the most part was fine with it and bemoaned how his slip of the tongue was going to haunt him. As someone else pointed out the fact that Steve used in Tony's nightmare vision to sell it over fellow Science Bro, Bruce, does make a statement. At the end of the film they had what might be considered a genuine friendship moment. Widow joked about them gazing into each other's eyes, which be a hint that they became closer during their time together as Avengers. Yes, it would have been nice for the last Avengers to have given them more screen time together not fighting or supporting each other more like Winter Soldier movie did Cap and Black Widow or the first Avengers did for Tony and Bruce, but it is what is.
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** Who knows? The movie's not out yet, they haven't released any information about that and nobody knows anything. Wait for the movie to come out.
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* What HAS Bucky been doing between visiting the Smithsonian and the stinger for Ant-Man? Did he go into hiding?
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* What HAS Bucky been doing between visiting the Smithsonian and the stinger for Ant-Man? Did he go into hiding?hiding?
[[/folder]]
[[/folder]]
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[[/folder]]
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[[folder: Bucky's Whereabouts]]
* What HAS Bucky been doing between visiting the Smithsonian and the stinger for Ant-Man? Did he go into hiding?
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**** Don't forget that there is a sizeable slash fandom out there: Steve/Tony was a carryover from the comics that has only been fueled by scenes from Avengers that could be interpreted as BelligerentSexualTension and Tony's nightmare from AoU that focused more on Steve than any of the others. And Steve/Bucky is the most popular slash ship in the MCU according to Fanlore. There's no rational way that the writers, actors, directors and producers don't know that, and so making the conflict about Bucky and Tony feeling like Steve is choosing between them might be, even if only fractionally, their way of egging on the slash fans with a plot that, for some, will feel like a subtextual LoveTriangle.
**** Let's also not forget that Tony likely now knows that Howard and Maria were killed by the Winter Soldier. However much antipathy he had towards his father, he's still going to take that amiss, and Tony loved his mother very much. His ego doesn't even have to come into the equation for there to be a very legitimate feeling of betrayal on Tony's part that Cap would be trying to shield Bucky from being made to answer for their murder. Especially since Tony has every reason to think that Steve knows Bucky's kill list includes Tony's parents. I mean, wouldn't you be a little hurt and betrayed in Tony's shoes, even if the person in Steve's place was just a "work friend"?
**** Let's also not forget that Tony likely now knows that Howard and Maria were killed by the Winter Soldier. However much antipathy he had towards his father, he's still going to take that amiss, and Tony loved his mother very much. His ego doesn't even have to come into the equation for there to be a very legitimate feeling of betrayal on Tony's part that Cap would be trying to shield Bucky from being made to answer for their murder. Especially since Tony has every reason to think that Steve knows Bucky's kill list includes Tony's parents. I mean, wouldn't you be a little hurt and betrayed in Tony's shoes, even if the person in Steve's place was just a "work friend"?
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**** OP here, the big thing about that for me is that he really is that self-absorbed in my eyes, and this scene clinches it. Even when he's pleading in the name of his and Steve's friendship, it feels more like he's upset that he's losing something. Even if I accept that he truly does consider himself Steve's friend and the whole VitriolicBestBuds thing is what fuels the relationship, it still seems really weird and self-centered. The only thing I can figure is that he sees it as "this dude has been out of your life for 70 years, you owe your life/friendship/kindness to the people around you now", where Steve sees it as dealing with losing him for maybe 2-3 years during a horrible war. I'm hoping the movie will clarify it some more and maybe show them doing things as friends before it all goes to hell.
