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* Buffy and Faith have connected mentally a couple times by that point, plus there's no telling what she overheard before she made her presence known. She might even just assume that if she'd actually killed Angel Buffy wouldn't have let her live.

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* I can't talk for the others, but I never liked Riley because he was rather boring and whiney. I don't like Angel much either, actually, because of his whole "vampire with a soul" thing going on. Spike was ok, tough, since his personality didn't change much after getting his soul back (when he wasn't insane, that is)

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* I can't talk for the others, but I never liked Riley because he was rather boring and whiney. I don't like Angel much either, actually, because of his whole "vampire with a soul" thing going on. Spike was ok, tough, though, since his personality didn't change much after getting his soul back (when he wasn't insane, that is)



*** Now that you mention it, it does seem odd that the usually straight-arrow Riley would go along with this.



**** Also, special ops units that have to operate undercover are sometimes allowed far more relaxed grooming standards than regular forces. Riley's hair isn't really pushing it.



***** In government service, "agent" has a very specific meaning. Military personnel NEVER use that term, preferring alternatives such as "operator". Even CIA agents are officially referred to as "officers".



**** True. NASA generally and the Apollo Program specifically were very high profile and regarded as a matter of national prestige and security. Every service branch wanted to be involved and had the motivation to send their best. The Initiative on the other hand was strictly hush hush and probably regarded as some kind of joke. It would have been very tempting to palm them off with personnel regarded by their commanders as dead weight.



**** If they have been shuffled around, rearranged and reassembled over the years, that could explain a lot. Like how the modern Initiative actually seems to know a lot LESS about demons, vampires, etc than the WW II era Anti-Demon Initiative.



*** While it is possible for homosexual people to engage in heterosexual relationships before coming out (in some cases even getting married and having children), it was pretty clear that Willow was not originally written that way. She even repeatedly kissed Xander while she was going out with Oz. It was clear that there was genuine sexual tension between them and not just a feeling that she had to conform to social convention. The out of universe reason is that Joss wanted to have a homosexual character on the show and he's openly said that he hadn't originally decided who it would be, so this hadn't originally been part of Willow's character; it could just have easily have been Xander. Joss probably didn't feel that having Willow come out as bisexual would be as significant to the character as having her come out as gay. If he could go back, he probably would have written some of the early episodes differently (not that it's a bad thing for the writers not to know in advance which character would be gay, since it means they're written the say way as everyone else). Willow being in love with Xander actually still makes perfect sense even if she was gay, given they've been best friends forever and even without sexual attraction it's easy to confuse a deep platonic connection for a romantic one even if you're heterosexual. Even her relationship with Oz makes sense given he was the first boy who really showed her any affection and they did have a lot in common. There were just a few times throughout the early seasons when it was clear she was originally written as sexually attracted to male characters which, if the episodes were written knowing what was planned, they probably would have been written differently.

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*** While it is possible for homosexual people to engage in heterosexual relationships before coming out (in some cases even getting married and having children), it was pretty clear that Willow was not originally written that way. She even repeatedly kissed Xander while she was going out with Oz. It was clear that there was genuine sexual tension between them and not just a feeling that she had to conform to social convention. The out of universe reason is that Joss wanted to have a homosexual character on the show and he's openly said that he hadn't originally decided who it would be, so this hadn't originally been part of Willow's character; it could just have easily have been Xander. Joss probably didn't feel that having Willow come out as bisexual would be as significant to the character as having her come out as gay. If he could go back, he probably would have written some of the early episodes differently (not that it's a bad thing for the writers not to know in advance which character would be gay, since it means they're written the say same way as everyone else). Willow being in love with Xander actually still makes perfect sense even if she was gay, given they've been best friends forever and even without sexual attraction it's easy to confuse a deep platonic connection for a romantic one even if you're heterosexual. Even her relationship with Oz makes sense given he was the first boy who really showed her any affection and they did have a lot in common. There were just a few times throughout the early seasons when it was clear she was originally written as sexually attracted to male characters which, if the episodes were written knowing what was planned, they probably would have been written differently.


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*** I could be wrong, but I'd swear I heard somewhere that Joss actually wanted to write her as bi, but couldn't get it past the executives. (They just barely tolerated her as a lesbian. Remember how long it took before she and Tara were shown kissing or even holding hands.) Personally, I would have found Willow only realizing she was bi when Tara was the first woman she'd ever felt a strong attraction far more believable than the whole "Welp, I kissed a girl so now I'm gay forever!" bit. Most gays/lesbians have figured out their orientation by their teens, and the first sign is often less same-sex attraction and more lack of opposite-sex attraction. Since bis do experience opposite sex attraction they often just assume they're straight until the first time they do find themselves strongly attracted to some of the same sex. Since this relies on so many complex variables, it may not happen until well into adulthood or even middle age.
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** The way I always looked at it (remembering that Whedon said it was meant to be totally random) was that it was sort of a nice tie-in to the rest of the dream elements to make them something the viewers can easier relate to. For example: In most dreams, no matter how linear or how much sense they make, there's usually one or two elements that don't really make sense no matter how you [[IncrediblyLamePun slice]] it. Thus, we have the dreams experienced by Buffy and the Scoobies, which given the plot line and progression of the episode, make sense in at least some basic way - there's something violent and angry that wants them all to die - and then you get this batshit crazy "cheese guy" vision out of nowhere. My two cents, anyway.

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** The way I always looked at it (remembering that Whedon said it was meant to be totally random) was that it was sort of a nice tie-in to the rest of the dream elements to make them something the viewers can easier relate to. For example: In most dreams, no matter how linear or how much sense they make, there's usually one or two elements that don't really make sense no matter how you [[IncrediblyLamePun [[{{Pun}} slice]] it. Thus, we have the dreams experienced by Buffy and the Scoobies, which given the plot line and progression of the episode, make sense in at least some basic way - there's something violent and angry that wants them all to die - and then you get this batshit crazy "cheese guy" vision out of nowhere. My two cents, anyway.

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* Kind of a side wonder continuing from above, but has anyone ever leaked where the writing planned to go with them before Creator/SethGreen decided to leave the show? "[[Recap/BuffyTheVampireSlayerS4E6WildAtHeart Wild at Heart]]" always felt rushed in that I know they did confirm that story was supposed to last longer but is there any clue what was longer originally going to be? On one hand it seems like it could have been a heart warming story about Oz realizing his werewolf side is just a part of him and strengthening the Oz/Willoe ship. On the other a big theme of the season was monsters vs monster-hunters and where that line is, so I admit an Oz FaceHeelTurn may not be improbable with a homicidal female werewolf tempting him. I had also assumed Tara's addition was a late comer idea from a now unattached Willow but reading that there may have been plans for Willow's coming out previously I wonder if a Tara-like character had been on the books for this season before hand or not? Does anybody have any dirt on a WhatCouldHaveBeen here or has no one ever spilled on this subject?

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* Kind of a side wonder continuing from above, but has anyone ever leaked where the writing planned to go with them before Creator/SethGreen decided to leave the show? "[[Recap/BuffyTheVampireSlayerS4E6WildAtHeart Wild at Heart]]" always felt rushed in that I know they did confirm that story was supposed to last longer but is there any clue what was longer originally going to be? On one hand it seems like it could have been a heart warming story about Oz realizing his werewolf side is just a part of him and strengthening the Oz/Willoe Oz/Willow ship. On the other a big theme of the season was monsters vs monster-hunters and where that line is, so I admit an Oz FaceHeelTurn may not be improbable with a homicidal female werewolf tempting him. I had also assumed Tara's addition was a late comer idea from a now unattached Willow but reading that there may have been plans for Willow's coming out previously I wonder if a Tara-like character had been on the books for this season before hand or not? Does anybody have any dirt on a WhatCouldHaveBeen here or has no one ever spilled on this subject?


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[[folder: Faith and Angel]]
When Faith first confronts Buffy after waking up, she is particularly angry that Buffy is no longer with Angel after everything that happened in season 3. But why should Faith think that Angel is still alive? He was at death's door when Faith went into the coma, and completely gone when she woke up. I think most people would have assumed that he didn't survive the poison.
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* The Initiative. Joss Whedon's handling of this [[MildlyMilitary "military" organization]] killed my interest in the show. There was [[CriticalResearchFailure NOTHING]] truly military about The Initiative at all, except that it was majority male and they used guns. And it wasn't a case of "Our Secret Military Groups are Different"; it was that the writers just didn't care. To name a few things, military people do ''not'' [[CriticalResearchFailure refer to each other as "agents", they refer to each other by their rank.]] Speaking of which, Riley acted like it was big secret thing that he had a rank (and Buffy seemed surprise). Ranks aren't secrets, or something only some people have--a military rank is literally the first thing other service-people will want to know about you because it quickly tells your amount of experience, level of responsibility, and sometimes even skill set. The costume department didn't bother to give Riley and co. clothes that looked like uniforms, but instead settled with plain trousers and sweaters. Riley's hair? Too long. Mentions of specific branches? Riley made an offhand mark about Marines, once, but that's it. (The irony of it being Marines is just hilarious--Marines are notorious for being insanely proud of being in the Corps, and the stereotypical Marine brags about it. A lot.) And all this is just scratching the surface.

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* The Initiative. Joss Whedon's handling of this [[MildlyMilitary "military" organization]] killed my interest in the show. There was [[CriticalResearchFailure NOTHING]] NOTHING truly military about The Initiative at all, except that it was majority male and they used guns. And it wasn't a case of "Our Secret Military Groups are Different"; it was that the writers just didn't care. To name a few things, military people do ''not'' [[CriticalResearchFailure refer to each other as "agents", they refer to each other by their rank.]] rank. Speaking of which, Riley acted like it was big secret thing that he had a rank (and Buffy seemed surprise). Ranks aren't secrets, or something only some people have--a military rank is literally the first thing other service-people will want to know about you because it quickly tells your amount of experience, level of responsibility, and sometimes even skill set. The costume department didn't bother to give Riley and co. clothes that looked like uniforms, but instead settled with plain trousers and sweaters. Riley's hair? Too long. Mentions of specific branches? Riley made an offhand mark about Marines, once, but that's it. (The irony of it being Marines is just hilarious--Marines are notorious for being insanely proud of being in the Corps, and the stereotypical Marine brags about it. A lot.) And all this is just scratching the surface.
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** What a lot of folks are also not acknowledging is that sexuality can be fluid. Sure, Willow is most likely a bi or pan woman written very clunkily by well-meaning straight writers. But she also could be someone who identified as straight and was genuinely attracted to Xander and Oz whose sexuality shifted when she met Tara and she stopped being attracted to men after that and was "gay now." That's not unheard of IRL.
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**Because it makes no sense for them to walk around asking if anyone has seen her when they don't know her human name or have any pictures of her human face. They can only track her via her lack of a soul, which is why she's been doing the ritual to borrow some of Buffy's.
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** The problem wasn't that The Initiative was new tech vs. Buffy and her stake being the Old Way. The problem is that if you're going to take out monster and demons and vampires (creatures from the Old Way) using New Tech, you have to at least respect and be somewhat knowledgeable about the Old Way first. It's the old adage of "if you're going to break the rules, you first have to master the rules so you know just HOW to break them properly." The Initiative did none of that, seeing demons as animals to capture, tag, and either keep for further research or release. Hence why Buffy was pissed. Buffy herself as a Slayer (a creature of the Old Ways) and a modern teenage girl (a creature of the New) was fairly skilled at being adaptable between the Old (Mega-Buffy spell) and the New (Mayor asplodey).

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** * The problem wasn't that The Initiative was new tech vs. Buffy and her stake being the Old Way. The problem is that if you're going to take out monster and demons and vampires (creatures from the Old Way) using New Tech, you have to at least respect and be somewhat knowledgeable about the Old Way first. It's the old adage of "if you're going to break the rules, you first have to master the rules so you know just HOW to break them properly." The Initiative did none of that, seeing demons as animals to capture, tag, and either keep for further research or release. Hence why Buffy was pissed. Buffy herself as a Slayer (a creature of the Old Ways) and a modern teenage girl (a creature of the New) was fairly skilled at being adaptable between the Old (Mega-Buffy spell) and the New (Mayor asplodey).
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**The problem wasn't that The Initiative was new tech vs. Buffy and her stake being the Old Way. The problem is that if you're going to take out monster and demons and vampires (creatures from the Old Way) using New Tech, you have to at least respect and be somewhat knowledgeable about the Old Way first. It's the old adage of "if you're going to break the rules, you first have to master the rules so you know just HOW to break them properly." The Initiative did none of that, seeing demons as animals to capture, tag, and either keep for further research or release. Hence why Buffy was pissed. Buffy herself as a Slayer (a creature of the Old Ways) and a modern teenage girl (a creature of the New) was fairly skilled at being adaptable between the Old (Mega-Buffy spell) and the New (Mayor asplodey).
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* I can't talk for the others, but I never liked Riley because he was rather boring and whiney. I don't like Angel much neither, actually, because of his whole "vampire with a soul" thing going on. Spike was ok, tough, since his personality didn't change much after getting his soul back (when he wasn't insane, that is)

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* I can't talk for the others, but I never liked Riley because he was rather boring and whiney. I don't like Angel much neither, either, actually, because of his whole "vampire with a soul" thing going on. Spike was ok, tough, since his personality didn't change much after getting his soul back (when he wasn't insane, that is)

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They didn't say it was "acting funny" they called it "the funny syphillis" because Xander was they were laughing at the idea of him getting an STI.


*** Because his being a sociopathic killer does not invalidate his point. That's an ad hominem. Spike has always been the character that sees things surprisingly clear and treats the others with pointedly brutal honesty, and this case was no exception. He's sort of like Anya in that regard; he'll say what no one else is willing to. He just doesn't do it left and right, like she does. Also, Xander had a magic disease that acted like syphilis. They even called it syphilis that was acting funny. Syphilis can very easily be fatal if untreated.

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*** Because his being a sociopathic killer does not invalidate his point. That's an ad hominem. Spike has always been the character that sees things surprisingly clear and treats the others with pointedly brutal honesty, and this case was no exception. He's sort of like Anya in that regard; he'll say what no one else is willing to. He just doesn't do it left and right, like she does. Also, Xander had a magic disease that acted like syphilis. They even called it syphilis that was acting funny.syphilis. Syphilis can very easily be fatal if untreated.


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****This gang has been through a lot of danger in the last 3+ years (including a giant snake demon and blowing up their own high school). Of course they're going to laugh and not take magical syphilis seriously at first. They'd act concerned if it had progressed to a life-threatening stage, which it didn't because Hus was dealt with.
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*** Additionally, as someone who is extremely good at facial recognition, a lot of people have a horrible ability to distinguish faces with even the slightest alteration (Clark Kent wouldn't get away with his spectacles disguise with everyone, but he'd for sure fool a lot of people). So it doesn't surprise me that, even if he had known him in passing, unless they were in the same squad, Riley wouldn't recognize him. Hell, most people seem to think Amy Adams and Isla Fisher look alike (they don't).

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*** Additionally, as someone who is extremely good at facial recognition, a lot of people have a horrible ability to distinguish faces with even the slightest alteration (Clark Kent wouldn't get away with his spectacles disguise with everyone, but he'd for sure fool a lot of people). So it doesn't surprise me that, even if he had known him in passing, unless they were in the same squad, Riley wouldn't recognize him. Adam. Hell, most people seem to think Amy Adams and Isla Fisher look alike (they don't).don't - they're both just pretty white girls with red hair).
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***Additionally, as someone who is extremely good at facial recognition, a lot of people have a horrible ability to distinguish faces with even the slightest alteration (Clark Kent wouldn't get away with his spectacles disguise with everyone, but he'd for sure fool a lot of people). So it doesn't surprise me that, even if he had known him in passing, unless they were in the same squad, Riley wouldn't recognize him. Hell, most people seem to think Amy Adams and Isla Fisher look alike (they don't).
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** Another reason why people didn't like Riley and why it wasn't even close to a healthy relationship: he was a teaching assistant in a class Buffy was taking. Granted, while not as bad as an outright Teacher/Student romance, it's still an UnequalPairing; he was still grading her papers and most universities have rules prohibiting this. The fact that the writers were trying to tell us it was totally healthy and A-OK to date a guy who's holding a position of power over you probably rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.


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** The writers were trying to kill this pairing and make people root for Buffy/Riley. Therefore, they shoehorned in examples of why they wouldn't work as a couple - even if those "examples" directly contradicted their characters. Because if they showed Spike openly admiring Buffy's strength and showing that he liked choice, that would've given fans more reason to ship them.
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*** [[CompletelyMissingThePoint My employer doesn't have an office in Ploughkeepsie.]]
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*** Yes. It's called GettingCrapPastTheRadar.
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[[folder: OOC Spike & Buffy]]
* In "[[Recap/BuffyTheVampireSlayerS4E9SomethingBlue Something Blue]]", Buffy and Spike are put under a love spell that makes them think they're getting married. Funny as they are, I couldn't help but notice the fact that the way they act is out of character for them, even for a version of them who have been charmed into SickeningSweethearts. It's less noticeable with Buffy, but even she completely ignores Xander in peril to make out with her "fiance", [[HeroComplex which is pretty contradictory to how she is usually]]. Then there's Spike, who A) acts like he hates Joyce despite the fact that we know he likes and gets along well with her and B) acts as though he’s unaware of Buffy’s competence in a fight and believes he needs to protect her despite it being clear that he views her as a challenging enemy--hence why he felt he needed the Gem of Amarra to kill her. I mean, it’s just a love spell, is it not? Why would it change anyone’s personality/opinions?
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*** I mean, I wasn't trying to imply that Buffy and Xander should have cheered and encouraged her to party it up, rather that it should have been the indicator about how badly she was coping. They instead mostly just look down their noses at her and say, "Hey, drinking is bad!" and leave it at that, which feels like an under-reaction and like they're not really paying attention to what it says about her mental state. Things like counselling or support groups should have come up in conversation, but everyone mostly seems content to give her vague, tepid assurances about how it'll get easier over reacting appropriately to her obvious trauma.
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*** Oh, I imagine they probably banked on using that as an excuse if the censors caught it, but Spike himself was probably just flipping Xander off.


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[[folder: Spike's Age]]
* In "The Initiative", Spike laments to Willow that he's "only 126" years old. One problem; no he isn't. William Pratt was born in 1853, so he was 147 at the time. If we consider that maybe, given how buffyverse vampires work, that he was talking about how old the demon is, aka, how long he's been a vampire, that age is ''still'' wrong. He would have been 120 instead. It also doesn't make sense if he was supposed to be lying to downplay his age, as why would he lie to be six years older than he actually is? That's just random.
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