History Headscratchers / BuffySeason2

20th Sep '17 2:16:48 AM LB7979
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* Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get why the Roma would make it so if Angel was happy, then he'd revert to being a complete monster. How would the pure happiness thing benefit them? Wouldn't it be easier to permanently bond the soul to him?

to:

* Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get why the Roma gypsies would make it so if Angel was happy, then he'd revert to being a complete monster. How would the pure happiness thing benefit them? Wouldn't it be easier to permanently bond the soul to him?



*** It may or may not have been easier to permanently bond his soul. Magic is clearly established as being weird like that early on. The reality is that the Roma were established to be dicks and maybe they thought that if he was enjoying being a vampire that they'd failed so epically they might as well let him go back to being free range evil. Honestly it makes LESS sense that his moment of perfect happiness happened when it did. I just barely survived a fight and an invincible demon has been resurrected, it's gonna take more than me getting in a girls pants to produce perfect happiness. Maybe it's just me who thinks the end of the world would be depressing enough to keep me from getting there. Though I probably would have gone evil when Buffy came back from the dead but that would have been REAL inconvenient.
*** Consider the context though. He has not been with a woman in over a century, at least where it had any meaning beyond sex. Hell, he has scarcely had ''any'' contract at all. Buffy was the first girl he truly loved, to the point she made him feel human again. "Getting into her pants" had a much greater significance based on that context, thus why he reached too happiness. I also agree with above in the Roma were simply assholes that wanted him to suffer for eternity.

to:

*** It may or may not have been easier to permanently bond his soul. Magic is clearly established as being weird like that early on. The reality is that the Roma gypsies were established to be dicks and maybe they thought that if he was enjoying being a vampire that they'd failed so epically they might as well let him go back to being free range evil. Honestly it makes LESS sense that his moment of perfect happiness happened when it did. I just barely survived a fight and an invincible demon has been resurrected, it's gonna take more than me getting in a girls pants to produce perfect happiness. Maybe it's just me who thinks the end of the world would be depressing enough to keep me from getting there. Though I probably would have gone evil when Buffy came back from the dead but that would have been REAL inconvenient.
*** Consider the context though. He has not been with a woman in over a century, at least where it had any meaning beyond sex. Hell, he has scarcely had ''any'' contract at all. Buffy was the first girl he truly loved, to the point she made him feel human again. "Getting into her pants" had a much greater significance based on that context, thus why he reached too happiness. I also agree with above in the Roma gypsies were simply assholes that wanted him to suffer for eternity.



* The Curse as a curse is actually a very clever vengeance spell. In 'Innocence', Jenny's uncle tells her that the curse (ie its function) is to make his soul plague his thoughts with guilt forever. The spell/curse must make Angel suffer - but in a moment of pure happiness, Angel's soul no longer affects his thoughts (even, as Enyos says 'for a mere moment'). Therefore the curse's function ends and the spell is broken. Even this likely unintended small print (the true happiness clause) would probably not be considered an issue - because he is suffering extreme guilt, how would Angel(us) ever achieve 'true' happiness anyway? The Roma presumably had considerable magical ability as they created the spell in the first place, but in the Buffyverse it is unusual for magic to have no flipsides whatsoever. Plus, once the curse is in place again, it's even worse for Angel - he knows what will cause him to lose his soul, making being near Buffy even more unbearable for him.
* Okay, so the Roma want to curse Angelus because he committed one little tiny act of sadistic murder on a favorite daughter. Sounds reasonable, as far as eternal vendettas go. They curse him with a human soul so that his guilt torments him until his re-dying day. Right there with ya, Roma. But if you take his soul away when he experiences a moment of true happiness, that not only leaves you with the Pure Evil (TM) demonic vampire, free to wreak havoc and misery and kill all the Roma daughters he could find, you're left with that, but HAPPY and RELIEVED for not having to deal with that pesky "remorse" anymore. I get that they're not working off reason, but really? Taking his soul back sort of defeats the purpose of giving it to him in the first place. A moment of total, perfect happiness is rare enough as it is, and even so it doesn't make guilt disappear forever. After his perfect moment is over, Angel is going to go right back to being a remorseful sadsack who still did a bunch of awful shit. It makes more sense to have him regain his soul if, say, he's about to kill himself, since then they pain will really be over for good. Angel is never made aware of the happiness clause before activating it, so it's not a self-correcting system it's just incredibly near-sighted. If Jenny hadn't had a computer to translate the information contained in the mystical paperweight, he'd have stayed Angelus and the world would have been sucked into hell, favored gyspy daughters and all. Maybe it's [[FridgeLogic Fridge Logic]] on a meta scale to point out that vengeance is really dumb and a bad excuse to do anything.
** First, the information wasn't in the Orb of Thesulah. That was just a 'spirit vault' to house the soul when it was pulled from wherever souls go when we die, but before it was placed back into Angelus. Jenny had a copy of the spell in the original Romani, so had to devise an accurate translation before she could attempt it. Second, once Angel knows the curses' happiness clause, he knows to avoid behaviour that would risk repeating that moment of happiness - so after that point it IS a self-correcting system. It just wasn't what was originally intended. The spell is a curse that uses a soul to make Angelus feel remorse for his victims as ''vengeance'' for killing the favourite daughter of the clan. The curse states that Angelus must suffer. But an unintended side effect (the 'small print' of the spell) is that if the curse states he must suffer for his crime(s) for all eternity, then as soon as that statement is rendered untrue (by a moment of actual happiness i.e. the state of ''not'' suffering), then that curse is broken. Breaking the curse removes the soul. Removing the soul makes Angel become Angelus once again. It's important to remember that he is the same being whether he is Liam, Angel, or Angelus. All that differs are his experiences, conscience, and soul (or lack thereof). Angelus is just Angel who does not have to suffer. He's had to exist as Angel for so long that he considers Angelus another personality rather than just himself with the demon rather than the human at the controls.

to:

* The Curse as a curse is actually a very clever vengeance spell. In 'Innocence', Jenny's uncle tells her that the curse (ie its function) is to make his soul plague his thoughts with guilt forever. The spell/curse must make Angel suffer - but in a moment of pure happiness, Angel's soul no longer affects his thoughts (even, as Enyos says 'for a mere moment'). Therefore the curse's function ends and the spell is broken. Even this likely unintended small print (the true happiness clause) would probably not be considered an issue - because he is suffering extreme guilt, how would Angel(us) ever achieve 'true' happiness anyway? The Roma gypsies presumably had considerable magical ability as they created the spell in the first place, but in the Buffyverse it is unusual for magic to have no flipsides whatsoever. Plus, once the curse is in place again, it's even worse for Angel - he knows what will cause him to lose his soul, making being near Buffy even more unbearable for him.
* Okay, so the Roma gypsies want to curse Angelus because he committed one little tiny act of sadistic murder on a favorite daughter. Sounds reasonable, as far as eternal vendettas go. They curse him with a human soul so that his guilt torments him until his re-dying day. Right there with ya, Roma. gypsies. But if you take his soul away when he experiences a moment of true happiness, that not only leaves you with the Pure Evil (TM) demonic vampire, free to wreak havoc and misery and kill all the Roma gypsy daughters he could find, you're left with that, but HAPPY and RELIEVED for not having to deal with that pesky "remorse" anymore. I get that they're not working off reason, but really? Taking his soul back sort of defeats the purpose of giving it to him in the first place. A moment of total, perfect happiness is rare enough as it is, and even so it doesn't make guilt disappear forever. After his perfect moment is over, Angel is going to go right back to being a remorseful sadsack who still did a bunch of awful shit. It makes more sense to have him regain his soul if, say, he's about to kill himself, since then they pain will really be over for good. Angel is never made aware of the happiness clause before activating it, so it's not a self-correcting system it's just incredibly near-sighted. If Jenny hadn't had a computer to translate the information contained in the mystical paperweight, he'd have stayed Angelus and the world would have been sucked into hell, favored gyspy daughters and all. Maybe it's [[FridgeLogic Fridge Logic]] on a meta scale to point out that vengeance is really dumb and a bad excuse to do anything.
** First, the information wasn't in the Orb of Thesulah. That was just a 'spirit vault' to house the soul when it was pulled from wherever souls go when we die, but before it was placed back into Angelus. Jenny had a copy of the spell in the original Romani, gypsies, so had to devise an accurate translation before she could attempt it. Second, once Angel knows the curses' happiness clause, he knows to avoid behaviour that would risk repeating that moment of happiness - so after that point it IS a self-correcting system. It just wasn't what was originally intended. The spell is a curse that uses a soul to make Angelus feel remorse for his victims as ''vengeance'' for killing the favourite daughter of the clan. The curse states that Angelus must suffer. But an unintended side effect (the 'small print' of the spell) is that if the curse states he must suffer for his crime(s) for all eternity, then as soon as that statement is rendered untrue (by a moment of actual happiness i.e. the state of ''not'' suffering), then that curse is broken. Breaking the curse removes the soul. Removing the soul makes Angel become Angelus once again. It's important to remember that he is the same being whether he is Liam, Angel, or Angelus. All that differs are his experiences, conscience, and soul (or lack thereof). Angelus is just Angel who does not have to suffer. He's had to exist as Angel for so long that he considers Angelus another personality rather than just himself with the demon rather than the human at the controls.



* Okay, so Angelus, the Scourge of Europe, the terror of the 18th and 19th century, gets unleashed by the curse being lifted due to a Roma loophole. That's fine, and brings out the chance of a really good villain. Problem, Angelus is not an effective villain. What did he do during his terrible spree in Sunnydale? He grilled some fish and broke Jenny Calendar's neck. Psychological torture is fine and all, but grilling fish, really? You could have gotten more conflict if Willow came home and found, instead of her fish had been barbecued, that her parents were limbless, or that her mom had been raped, or that the house was on fire with them inside. All of these are better than dead fish because they mean business, and up until he actually killed Jenny, I thought Angelus was nothing but hype. You might argue that its ContractualImmortality, but that's bogus, because at that point, we had never seen Xander's or Willow's parents, and they are hardly ever shown throughout the rest of the series.\\

to:

* Okay, so Angelus, the Scourge of Europe, the terror of the 18th and 19th century, gets unleashed by the curse being lifted due to a Roma gypsy loophole. That's fine, and brings out the chance of a really good villain. Problem, Angelus is not an effective villain. What did he do during his terrible spree in Sunnydale? He grilled some fish and broke Jenny Calendar's neck. Psychological torture is fine and all, but grilling fish, really? You could have gotten more conflict if Willow came home and found, instead of her fish had been barbecued, that her parents were limbless, or that her mom had been raped, or that the house was on fire with them inside. All of these are better than dead fish because they mean business, and up until he actually killed Jenny, I thought Angelus was nothing but hype. You might argue that its ContractualImmortality, but that's bogus, because at that point, we had never seen Xander's or Willow's parents, and they are hardly ever shown throughout the rest of the series.\\



*** It's entirely an informed ability. Angelus's power is clearly great PR. Look at his displayed history. He killed Jenny and I assume dozens of unnamed citizens. Big whoop, every vampire racks up an off screen kill or ten. The only truly impressive things he does is attempt to awaken Akathla, which is admitedly we need bigger scales on the one to ten scale of evil. He does all of nothing aside from try to eliminate direct threats when he comes back in Angel. Throughout the flash backs we find out that he wasn' even that terrible a vampire. Holts was hunting him, he eventually killed Holt' family. After that he doesn't do anything evil enough to warrent documentation. If the Roma weren't complete morons Darla would have ended up with a soul not Angel. Darla captured the girl, Darla delivered her to Angel. All he did was feed. It's not that Angel is blameless, he's about as blameless as a man sitting down to a steak dinner is of killing a cow.

to:

*** It's entirely an informed ability. Angelus's power is clearly great PR. Look at his displayed history. He killed Jenny and I assume dozens of unnamed citizens. Big whoop, every vampire racks up an off screen kill or ten. The only truly impressive things he does is attempt to awaken Akathla, which is admitedly we need bigger scales on the one to ten scale of evil. He does all of nothing aside from try to eliminate direct threats when he comes back in Angel. Throughout the flash backs we find out that he wasn' even that terrible a vampire. Holts was hunting him, he eventually killed Holt' family. After that he doesn't do anything evil enough to warrent documentation. If the Roma gypsies weren't complete morons Darla would have ended up with a soul not Angel. Darla captured the girl, Darla delivered her to Angel. All he did was feed. It's not that Angel is blameless, he's about as blameless as a man sitting down to a steak dinner is of killing a cow.
16th Sep '17 8:58:40 AM lowkeyaugust
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* Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get why the gypsies would make it so if Angel was happy, then he'd revert to being a complete monster. How would the pure happiness thing benefit them? Wouldn't it be easier to permanently bond the soul to him?

to:

* Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get why the gypsies Roma would make it so if Angel was happy, then he'd revert to being a complete monster. How would the pure happiness thing benefit them? Wouldn't it be easier to permanently bond the soul to him?



*** It may or may not have been easier to permanently bond his soul. Magic is clearly established as being weird like that early on. The reality is that the gypsies were established to be dicks and maybe they thought that if he was enjoying being a vampire that they'd failed so epically they might as well let him go back to being free range evil. Honestly it makes LESS sense that his moment of perfect happiness happened when it did. I just barely survived a fight and an invincible demon has been resurrected, it's gonna take more than me getting in a girls pants to produce perfect happiness. Maybe it's just me who thinks the end of the world would be depressing enough to keep me from getting there. Though I probably would have gone evil when Buffy came back from the dead but that would have been REAL inconvenient.
*** Consider the context though. He has not been with a woman in over a century, at least where it had any meaning beyond sex. Hell, he has scarcely had ''any'' contract at all. Buffy was the first girl he truly loved, to the point she made him feel human again. "Getting into her pants" had a much greater significance based on that context, thus why he reached too happiness. I also agree with above in the gypsies were simply assholes that wanted him to suffer for eternity.

to:

*** It may or may not have been easier to permanently bond his soul. Magic is clearly established as being weird like that early on. The reality is that the gypsies Roma were established to be dicks and maybe they thought that if he was enjoying being a vampire that they'd failed so epically they might as well let him go back to being free range evil. Honestly it makes LESS sense that his moment of perfect happiness happened when it did. I just barely survived a fight and an invincible demon has been resurrected, it's gonna take more than me getting in a girls pants to produce perfect happiness. Maybe it's just me who thinks the end of the world would be depressing enough to keep me from getting there. Though I probably would have gone evil when Buffy came back from the dead but that would have been REAL inconvenient.
*** Consider the context though. He has not been with a woman in over a century, at least where it had any meaning beyond sex. Hell, he has scarcely had ''any'' contract at all. Buffy was the first girl he truly loved, to the point she made him feel human again. "Getting into her pants" had a much greater significance based on that context, thus why he reached too happiness. I also agree with above in the gypsies Roma were simply assholes that wanted him to suffer for eternity.



* The Curse as a curse is actually a very clever vengeance spell. In 'Innocence', Jenny's uncle tells her that the curse (ie its function) is to make his soul plague his thoughts with guilt forever. The spell/curse must make Angel suffer - but in a moment of pure happiness, Angel's soul no longer affects his thoughts (even, as Enyos says 'for a mere moment'). Therefore the curse's function ends and the spell is broken. Even this likely unintended small print (the true happiness clause) would probably not be considered an issue - because he is suffering extreme guilt, how would Angel(us) ever achieve 'true' happiness anyway? The gypsies presumably had considerable magical ability as they created the spell in the first place, but in the Buffyverse it is unusual for magic to have no flipsides whatsoever. Plus, once the curse is in place again, it's even worse for Angel - he knows what will cause him to lose his soul, making being near Buffy even more unbearable for him.
* Okay, so the gypsies want to curse Angelus because he committed one little tiny act of sadistic murder on a favorite daughter. Sounds reasonable, as far as eternal vendettas go. They curse him with a human soul so that his guilt torments him until his re-dying day. Right there with ya, gypsies. But if you take his soul away when he experiences a moment of true happiness, that not only leaves you with the Pure Evil (TM) demonic vampire, free to wreak havoc and misery and kill all the gypsy daughters he could find, you're left with that, but HAPPY and RELIEVED for not having to deal with that pesky "remorse" anymore. I get that they're not working off reason, but really? Taking his soul back sort of defeats the purpose of giving it to him in the first place. A moment of total, perfect happiness is rare enough as it is, and even so it doesn't make guilt disappear forever. After his perfect moment is over, Angel is going to go right back to being a remorseful sadsack who still did a bunch of awful shit. It makes more sense to have him regain his soul if, say, he's about to kill himself, since then they pain will really be over for good. Angel is never made aware of the happiness clause before activating it, so it's not a self-correcting system it's just incredibly near-sighted. If Jenny hadn't had a computer to translate the information contained in the mystical paperweight, he'd have stayed Angelus and the world would have been sucked into hell, favored gyspy daughters and all. Maybe it's [[FridgeLogic Fridge Logic]] on a meta scale to point out that vengeance is really dumb and a bad excuse to do anything.

to:

* The Curse as a curse is actually a very clever vengeance spell. In 'Innocence', Jenny's uncle tells her that the curse (ie its function) is to make his soul plague his thoughts with guilt forever. The spell/curse must make Angel suffer - but in a moment of pure happiness, Angel's soul no longer affects his thoughts (even, as Enyos says 'for a mere moment'). Therefore the curse's function ends and the spell is broken. Even this likely unintended small print (the true happiness clause) would probably not be considered an issue - because he is suffering extreme guilt, how would Angel(us) ever achieve 'true' happiness anyway? The gypsies Roma presumably had considerable magical ability as they created the spell in the first place, but in the Buffyverse it is unusual for magic to have no flipsides whatsoever. Plus, once the curse is in place again, it's even worse for Angel - he knows what will cause him to lose his soul, making being near Buffy even more unbearable for him.
* Okay, so the gypsies Roma want to curse Angelus because he committed one little tiny act of sadistic murder on a favorite daughter. Sounds reasonable, as far as eternal vendettas go. They curse him with a human soul so that his guilt torments him until his re-dying day. Right there with ya, gypsies. Roma. But if you take his soul away when he experiences a moment of true happiness, that not only leaves you with the Pure Evil (TM) demonic vampire, free to wreak havoc and misery and kill all the gypsy Roma daughters he could find, you're left with that, but HAPPY and RELIEVED for not having to deal with that pesky "remorse" anymore. I get that they're not working off reason, but really? Taking his soul back sort of defeats the purpose of giving it to him in the first place. A moment of total, perfect happiness is rare enough as it is, and even so it doesn't make guilt disappear forever. After his perfect moment is over, Angel is going to go right back to being a remorseful sadsack who still did a bunch of awful shit. It makes more sense to have him regain his soul if, say, he's about to kill himself, since then they pain will really be over for good. Angel is never made aware of the happiness clause before activating it, so it's not a self-correcting system it's just incredibly near-sighted. If Jenny hadn't had a computer to translate the information contained in the mystical paperweight, he'd have stayed Angelus and the world would have been sucked into hell, favored gyspy daughters and all. Maybe it's [[FridgeLogic Fridge Logic]] on a meta scale to point out that vengeance is really dumb and a bad excuse to do anything.



*** It's entirely an informed ability. Angelus's power is clearly great PR. Look at his displayed history. He killed Jenny and I assume dozens of unnamed citizens. Big whoop, every vampire racks up an off screen kill or ten. The only truly impressive things he does is attempt to awaken Akathla, which is admitedly we need bigger scales on the one to ten scale of evil. He does all of nothing aside from try to eliminate direct threats when he comes back in Angel. Throughout the flash backs we find out that he wasn' even that terrible a vampire. Holts was hunting him, he eventually killed Holt' family. After that he doesn't do anything evil enough to warrent documentation. If the Gypsies weren't complete morons Darla would have ended up with a soul not Angel. Darla captured the girl, Darla delivered her to Angel. All he did was feed. It's not that Angel is blameless, he's about as blameless as a man sitting down to a steak dinner is of killing a cow.

to:

*** It's entirely an informed ability. Angelus's power is clearly great PR. Look at his displayed history. He killed Jenny and I assume dozens of unnamed citizens. Big whoop, every vampire racks up an off screen kill or ten. The only truly impressive things he does is attempt to awaken Akathla, which is admitedly we need bigger scales on the one to ten scale of evil. He does all of nothing aside from try to eliminate direct threats when he comes back in Angel. Throughout the flash backs we find out that he wasn' even that terrible a vampire. Holts was hunting him, he eventually killed Holt' family. After that he doesn't do anything evil enough to warrent documentation. If the Gypsies Roma weren't complete morons Darla would have ended up with a soul not Angel. Darla captured the girl, Darla delivered her to Angel. All he did was feed. It's not that Angel is blameless, he's about as blameless as a man sitting down to a steak dinner is of killing a cow.
15th Feb '17 3:04:49 PM timemonkey
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** Was it ever stated in the first bit of S2 that Giles had communicated with the Council recently? They may have seen Kendra's activation and assumed Buffy was dead and left Giles alone to pull himself together emotionally and send them word of what happened. After that they might have been pissed at him for keeping so much important information to himself which would explain why they continue leaving him out of the loop before ultimately firing him.
5th Oct '16 10:47:13 AM DarkWillow
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*** Actually, it's very likely CPR ''would'' work. Many things are thrown aside as 'unrealistic' by people whose knowledge of such things amounts to what they can Google. CPR is all about maintaining bloodflow (and therefore oxygen) to the brain when the heart is either fibrillating (in heart attacks) or has stopped (like, say, when ''someone drowns''). CPR often stimulates the heart and lungs to begin functioning again, but the real goal is to keep the brain oxygenated. Medical lesson over - I've often wondered why Kendra's Watcher Sam Zebuto, who Giles ''recognises by name'', didn't phone ahead to warn Giles that he'd sent her over. The simplest and possibly most logical explanation is that in all the excitement, Giles was often away from his phone. Her Watcher DID try to let Giles know, he just wasn't successful.



Kendra is sent to Sunnydale because her Watcher senses a dark presense rising in Sunnydale. Which turns out to be Drusilla. Let's for the moment forgive the fact that Kendra is the one who captures Angel for Spike because that wasn't her plan. What's so impressive about Drusilla that it qualifies as something to send the Slayer after? Of all our major vampires she's by far the most "tame" and the only major threat is her seeing which seems balanced by her crazy most of the time. Angelus however didn't qualify as a big threat until he found Acathla? I'll be the first to admit Angelus' reputation far and wide outstrips his actions but he's still clearly worse than Dru and the Judge was supposed to be invincible and might well have been a global threat had Xander not had a stroke of genius.

to:

Kendra is sent to Sunnydale because her Watcher senses a dark presense presence rising in Sunnydale. Which turns out to be Drusilla. Let's for the moment forgive the fact that Kendra is the one who captures Angel for Spike because that wasn't her plan. What's so impressive about Drusilla that it qualifies as something to send the Slayer after? Of all our major vampires she's by far the most "tame" and the only major threat is her seeing which seems balanced by her crazy most of the time. Angelus however didn't qualify as a big threat until he found Acathla? I'll be the first to admit Angelus' reputation far and wide outstrips his actions but he's still clearly worse than Dru and the Judge was supposed to be invincible and might well have been a global threat had Xander not had a stroke of genius.


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*** 'Dark Power about to rise' could mean any of a few possibilities. It could mean Drusilla, Angelus (who 'rises' a few episodes later), or ultimately Acathla. The events are all linked: Drusilla is healed with Angel's lifeforce. If Drusilla isn't healed, she dies and they probably don't end up reassembling the Judge. If they don't reassemble the Judge, different circumstances could've meant that Angelus did not reappear (though Buffy had told Willow she intended to sleep with Angel at some point). If Angelus hadn't reappeared, Acathla probably wouldn't have been awoken, since the demon for some reason needed Angel's blood to wake up.


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** They visit one in 'Ted' and then in a late Season 3 episode ('Enemies', I believe) the Mayor says he's taking Faith miniature golfing. It's probably just that there's a course within driving distance, but not actually in Sunnydale itself, explaining why Willow says 'there's no course here'. Can I also add...what a nitpick this one is!
5th Oct '16 10:23:18 AM DarkWillow
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** First, the information wasn't in the Orb of Thesulah. That was just a 'spirit vault' to house the soul when it was pulled from wherever souls go when we die, but before it was placed back into Angelus. Jenny had a copy of the spell in the original Romani, so had to devise an accurate translation before she could attempt it. Second, once Angel knows the curses' happiness clause, he knows to avoid behaviour that would risk repeating that moment of happiness - so after that point it IS a self-correcting system. It just wasn't what was originally intended. The spell is a curse that uses a soul to make Angelus feel remorse for his victims as ''vengeance'' for killing the favourite daughter of the clan. The curse states that Angelus must suffer. But an unintended side effect (the 'small print' of the spell) is that if the curse states he must suffer for his crime(s) for all eternity, then as soon as that statement is rendered untrue (by a moment of actual happiness i.e. the state of ''not'' suffering), then that curse is broken. Breaking the curse removes the soul. Removing the soul makes Angel become Angelus once again. It's important to remember that he is the same being whether he is Liam, Angel, or Angelus. All that differs are his experiences, conscience, and soul (or lack thereof). Angelus is just Angel who does not have to suffer. He's had to exist as Angel for so long that he considers Angelus another personality rather than just himself with the demon rather than the human at the controls.
4th Jun '16 10:02:49 PM ApeAccount
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[[folder:Minigolf]]
* This is only a very minor one, but in "When She was Bad" is was explicitly mentioned that there was no minigolf course in Sunnydale. A few months later in "Ted" they all went minigolfing. There was no reference to the course being new and it didn't look like it'd just been built. I suppose it's possible the course had closed down and reopened but this wasn't addressed in the episode. So it seems likely the writers simply forgot that they'd said that said there was no course before. Again, it's not a big deal and there's really no reason why the characters had to have a line saying, "Hey, that's right, the old minigolf course that we previously couldn't go to because it closed is now reopened again." It's just not clear whether the course was supposed to be new, was supposed to be an old course reopened, they had to leave Sunnydale to go minigolfing, or it was simply forgotten about that there wasn't a course in Sunnydale before.
[[/folder]]
11th Feb '16 7:38:01 PM InnerDeliciousnes
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*** The heels of a neart-death experience is actually an excellent time for a moment of perfect happiness. Surviving a near-death experience makes everything more meaningful for people. We tend to take what we have for granted; when we come very close to losing everything, the world becomes a lot more flavorful for a while. Angel was still in that period of "Embrace and savor everything that happens" that comes after a near-death experience, shutting out all the bad to bury himself in the good (in this case, the sex). That was his moment of Perfect Happiness with Buffy.

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*** The heels of a neart-death near-death experience is actually an excellent time for a moment of perfect happiness. Surviving a near-death experience makes everything more meaningful for people. We tend to take what we have for granted; when we come very close to losing everything, the world becomes a lot more flavorful for a while. Angel was still in that period of "Embrace and savor everything that happens" that comes after a near-death experience, shutting out all the bad to bury himself in the good (in this case, the sex). That was his moment of Perfect Happiness with Buffy.



** I don't think so. Or, at least, not the orgasm itself. It had more to do with who he was having sex with. The entire point was that Angel had a sexual connection with someone he loved (Buffy). Later, in his own show, Darla would use this to purposely bring back Angelus. She failed precisely because Angel didn't have the emotional connection required with Darla that was neccessary to create a moment of perfect happiness.

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** I don't think so. Or, at least, not the orgasm itself. It had more to do with who he was having sex with. The entire point was that Angel had a sexual connection with someone he loved (Buffy). Later, in his own show, Darla would use this to purposely bring back Angelus. She failed precisely because Angel didn't have the emotional connection required with Darla that was neccessary necessary to create a moment of perfect happiness.



*Okay, so the gypsies want to curse Angelus because he committed one little tiny act of sadistic murder on a favorite daughter. Sounds reasonable, as far as eternal vendettas go. They curse him with a human soul so that his guilt torments him until his re-dying day. Right there with ya, gypsies. But if you take his soul away when he experiences a moment of true happiness, that not only leaves you with the Pure Evil (TM) demonic vampire, free to wreak havoc and misery and kill all the gypsy daughters he could find, you're left with that, but HAPPY and RELIEVED for not having to deal with that pesky "remorse" anymore. I get that they're not working off reason, but really? Taking his soul back sort of defeats the purpose of giving it to him in the first place. A moment of total, perfect happiness is rare enough as it is, and even so it doesn't make guilt disappear forever. After his perfect moment is over, Angel is going to go right back to being a remorseful sadsack who still did a bunch of awful shit. It makes more sense to have him regain his soul if, say, he's about to kill himself, since then they pain will really be over for good. Angel is never made aware of the happiness clause before activating it, so it's not a self-correcting system it's just incredibly near-sighted. If Jenny hadn't had a computer to translate the information contained in the mystical paperweight, he'd have stayed Angelus and the world would have been sucked into hell, favored gyspy daughters and all. Maybe it's [[FridgeLogic Fridge Logic]] on a meta scale to point out that vengeance is really dumb and a bad excuse to do anything.






** Even with advanced healing some injuries just take longer and still may be permenent. They may have thought Spike was permenently paralysed.

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** Even with advanced healing some injuries just take longer and still may be permenent. permanent. They may have thought Spike was permenently permanently paralysed.
8th Feb '16 4:03:00 PM bwburke94
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***** Xander was clearly terrified by the encounter with Angelus in 'Killed by Death'. He is shocked enough to visibly untense afterward. Plus, how exactly was he intimidating Angelus? Angelus' response to Xander standing in his way is 'do you think for one MICROSECOND that you could stop me?' The only reason Angelus walks off is because there were dozens of witnesses and police around - even in AtS, Angel would have had trouble with that many opponents. In the Angel episode 'Expecting' he takes on four or five big guys at once and wins, but it's a tough fight and he gets shot several times. Against more, Angelus realises it would be more trouble than it's worth, and he's already spooked Xander by just being there.

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***** Xander was clearly terrified by the encounter with Angelus in 'Killed by Death'. He is shocked enough to visibly untense afterward. Plus, how exactly was he intimidating Angelus? Angelus' response to Xander standing in his way is 'do you think for one MICROSECOND that you could stop me?' The only reason Angelus walks off is because there were dozens of witnesses and police around - even in AtS, his own series, Angel would have had trouble with that many opponents. In the Angel episode 'Expecting' he takes on four or five big guys at once and wins, but it's a tough fight and he gets shot several times. Against more, Angelus realises it would be more trouble than it's worth, and he's already spooked Xander by just being there.
4th Jan '16 3:53:56 AM DarkWillow
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***** Xander was clearly terrified by the encounter with Angelus in 'Killed by Death'. He is shocked enough to visibly untense afterward. Plus, how exactly was he intimidating Angelus? Angelus' response to Xander standing in his way is 'do you think for one MICROSECOND that you could stop me?' The only reason Angelus walks off is because there were dozens of witnesses and police around - even in AtS, Angel would have had trouble with that many opponents. In the Angel episode 'Expecting' he takes on four or five big guys at once and wins, but it's a tough fight and he gets shot several times. Against more, Angelus realises it would be more trouble than it's worth, and he's already spooked Xander by just being there.


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** Exactly. At no point does he ever turn to Anya and ask how many people she killed during her demonic career. His hatred of Angel(us) was entirely personal.


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***** Plus he thinks for most of the episode that it's a genuine vision of the future, confirming all his worst fears about his family and himself. He doesn't really believe he's good enough for Anya if that is going to be his future.


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* The Curse as a curse is actually a very clever vengeance spell. In 'Innocence', Jenny's uncle tells her that the curse (ie its function) is to make his soul plague his thoughts with guilt forever. The spell/curse must make Angel suffer - but in a moment of pure happiness, Angel's soul no longer affects his thoughts (even, as Enyos says 'for a mere moment'). Therefore the curse's function ends and the spell is broken. Even this likely unintended small print (the true happiness clause) would probably not be considered an issue - because he is suffering extreme guilt, how would Angel(us) ever achieve 'true' happiness anyway? The gypsies presumably had considerable magical ability as they created the spell in the first place, but in the Buffyverse it is unusual for magic to have no flipsides whatsoever. Plus, once the curse is in place again, it's even worse for Angel - he knows what will cause him to lose his soul, making being near Buffy even more unbearable for him.


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***** Misses the point entirely - Angel's recovery time was very long because he had been almost drained to death by the 'Restore Vampire' ritual Spike did to heal Drusilla. The ritual was meant to completely destroy Angel and give his strength to Dru, but Spike had to end it prematurely, meaning Dru was still restored while Angel didn't die. He needed a length recuperation afterward.
4th Jan '16 3:21:24 AM DarkWillow
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*** Of course it was the wrong thing to do. Xander up to that point had good reasons to want Angel dead, but remember his reasons for hating him go way back. Xander's judgement regarding Angel has been constantly influenced by his (Angel's) relationship to Buffy and the fact Xander never got to be with her. All of this comes to a head in Becoming when Xander has an opportunity to see the guy he hates (but is also currently a genuine enemy) get killed, without bothering to deliver Willow's message. Neither Willow nor Buffy wanted to kill Angel. Buffy would have fought a delaying action (something she was perfectly capable of) and concentrated on keeping him away from Acathla. Xander had no right to take away Buffy's choices - she's the one fighting, not him. He wanted to make sure Angel never walked away from the fight, whether with a soul or without.
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