History Headscratchers / BattleForWesnoth

4th Dec '11 8:00:50 AM terrkerr
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* In Heir to The Throne, after freeing Elensefar, Konrad has to go north to fetch the scepter of fire. Now, for some reason, he can't use the ships to sail to the ford of Abez, and instead crosses right through enemy territory. Even if the river weren't navigable (which it should be, as it looks very wide when you have to cross it on foot), why can't Konrad & Co. cross the river by boat at it's mouth and go east through allied territory (Wesmere). That makes FAR more sense than having to plow through legions of orcs, undead, and the entire Wesnoth army before crossing the ford of Abez. Guess Delfador's a mighty Archmage, but he can't read a map.

to:

* In Heir to The Throne, after freeing Elensefar, Konrad has to go north to fetch the scepter of fire. Now, for some reason, he can't use the ships to sail to the ford of Abez, and instead crosses right through enemy territory. Even if the river weren't navigable (which it should be, as it looks very wide when you have to cross it on foot), why can't Konrad & Co. cross the river by boat at it's its mouth and go east through allied territory (Wesmere). That makes FAR more sense than having to plow through legions of orcs, undead, and the entire Wesnoth army before crossing the ford of Abez. Guess Delfador's a mighty Archmage, but he can't read a map.
16th Sep '11 10:35:35 PM Harakuroi
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Battle for Wesnoth is one of the best open-source turn based wargames out there, and I appreciate the number of developers who worked hard for essentially no pay making this excellent video game.

However, there's no sense of scale. One hex is one thing, so there's no consistent sense of how big a single hex is.

Since a hex doesn't allow stacking, this means a hex is about one meter in size (since that's about how much space a single person would take up in a war).

But this results in:

* Villages so tiny they can only fit one person

* Castles so small they can't fit more than a dozen people

* A single turn is four hours long (six turns per day). This means, for example, the mage can only move six meters in four hours.

Since an average person can easily walk six miles in four hours, even if they aren't fit. This in mind, we can also say a hex is a mile in size; this makes sense for some things (unit movement, the villages) but not for other things (the size of castles, roads and bridges).

So, depending on which aspect of gameplay we look at, a single hex is either a meter or a mile in size.

Also, the game has day and night cycles, but how come none of troops ever need to sleep?

* Read [[http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19145 this]] thread. Basically, hexes are purposefully abstract representations of space. Each hex represents one "thing," (object); a village, a unit, etc... scale be damned. That means that, for specific instances, you will see differences scales using the same hexagons. For example, a unit can be a single soldier with each "village" being just a house, or each unit can be a platoon/squad with each "village" being a small town (in this case, the unit's name is the name of the platoon/squad commander). In the latter example, units sleep in shifts. In the former... I have no idea. Anyways, all this tomfoolery is best summed up by the acronym HAPMA - Hexagons Are Possibly Miles Across.

** Excellent thread. [[WordOfGod Word of God]] (Dave in the above thread) agrees this is true, and even brought up the issue with tropps never sleeping. I can suspend my disbelief while playing the game if I make a hex about a mile across, have a single unit be a battalion (solving the sleep problem for non-undead troops; only some of the group sleeps at a given time and the rest are carried around while sleeping via some form of magic; lawful units like to sleep at night and chaotic units during the day, which explains the day/night penalties/bonuses), have the “castles” actually be large towns, and have things like paths and bridges be a lot smaller compared to the scale seen on the map (To answer Word of God’s point about collecting taxes in the middle of the night, maybe that’s a case of taking people’s valuables from the town). This view of the reality works quite nicely for multiplayer games; campaigns are a different kettle, but I prefer multiplayer on random maps against the computer.

to:

* Battle for Wesnoth is one of the best open-source turn based wargames out there, and I appreciate the number of developers who worked hard for essentially no pay making this excellent video game.

game. However, there's no sense of scale. One hex is one thing, so there's no consistent sense of how big a single hex is.

is. Since a hex doesn't allow stacking, this means a hex is about one meter in size (since that's about how much space a single person would take up in a war).

war). But this results in:

* Villages
in villages so tiny they can only fit one person

* Castles
person, castles so small they can't fit more than a dozen people

* A
people and a single turn is taking four hours long (six turns per day). This means, for example, the mage can only move six meters in four hours. \n\n Since an average person can easily walk six miles in four hours, even if they aren't fit. This in mind, fit, we can could also say a hex is a mile in size; this makes sense for some things (unit movement, the villages) but not for other things (the size of castles, roads and bridges).

bridges). So, depending on which aspect of gameplay we look at, a single hex is either a meter or a mile in size.

size. Also, the game has day and night cycles, but how come none of troops ever need to sleep?

*
sleep?
**
Read [[http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19145 this]] thread. Basically, hexes are purposefully abstract representations of space. Each hex represents one "thing," "thing" (object); a village, a unit, etc... scale be damned. That means that, for specific instances, you will see differences different scales using the same hexagons. For example, a unit can be a single soldier with each "village" being just a house, or each unit can be a platoon/squad with each "village" being a small town (in this case, the unit's name is the name of the platoon/squad commander). In the latter example, units sleep in shifts. In the former... I have no idea. Anyways, all this tomfoolery is best summed up by the acronym HAPMA - Hexagons Are Possibly Miles Across.

Across.
** Excellent thread. [[WordOfGod Word of God]] (Dave in the above thread) agrees this is true, and even brought up the issue with tropps troops never sleeping. I can suspend my disbelief while playing the game if I make a hex about a mile across, have a single unit be a battalion (solving the sleep problem for non-undead troops; only some of the group sleeps at a given time and the rest are carried around while sleeping via some form of magic; lawful units like to sleep at night and chaotic units during the day, which explains the day/night penalties/bonuses), have the “castles” castlesť actually be large towns, and have things like paths and bridges be a lot smaller compared to the scale seen on the map (To answer Word of God’s WordOfGod's point about collecting taxes in the middle of the night, maybe that’s that's a case of taking people’s people's valuables from the town). This view of the reality works quite nicely for multiplayer games; campaigns are a different kettle, but I prefer multiplayer on random maps against the computer.




* In Heir to The Throne, after freeing Elensefar Konrad has to go north to fetch the scepter of fire. Now, for some reason, he can't use the ships to sail to the ford of Abez, instead crossing right through enemy territory. Even if the river weren't navigable (which it should, as it looks very wide when you have to cross it on foot), why can't Konrad & Co. cross the river by boat at it's mouth and go east through allied territory (Wesmere). That makes FAR more sense than having to plow through legions of orcs, undead, and the entire Wesnoth army before crossing the ford of Abez. Guess Delfador's a mighty Archmage, but he can't read a map.
** ... because then the campaign wouldn't be any fun to play. Seriously, it's a good question, we'll look into finding an appropriate handwave.

to:

\n* In Heir to The Throne, after freeing Elensefar Elensefar, Konrad has to go north to fetch the scepter of fire. Now, for some reason, he can't use the ships to sail to the ford of Abez, and instead crossing crosses right through enemy territory. Even if the river weren't navigable (which it should, should be, as it looks very wide when you have to cross it on foot), why can't Konrad & Co. cross the river by boat at it's mouth and go east through allied territory (Wesmere). That makes FAR more sense than having to plow through legions of orcs, undead, and the entire Wesnoth army before crossing the ford of Abez. Guess Delfador's a mighty Archmage, but he can't read a map.
** ... because then the campaign wouldn't be any fun to play. Seriously, Seriously though, it's a good question, we'll look into finding an appropriate handwave.



**** It can do when the devs are tropers, yeah. We haven't managed to figure anything out for this yet, though.
** Because everyone is actually BloodKnight. See how they respect and soldier only during battle? They need more soldiers, so they go trough enemy army, kill, loot and pillage and conscript everyone in theri path. Granted, not very heroic but atleast it's one explanation...
** Two reasons I can think of. The army still had a lot of inexperienced soldiers, and Delfador decided to take that route to prepare them for the more grueling battles along the way; most of what they were expecting to fight were orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army, so plowing through orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army would steel the newer recruits. The other potential argument would be that the Wesnoth military would expect Konrad to go by boat after he escaped that same way, and they sent their navy to block any entry into the North by ship. Either of those make sense in the twisted recesses of this troper's mind.
** I thought of the blockade angle as well. Simply add a line in the campaign to this effect:
"With Ashevier's navy blockading Elensefar, Konrad's army had no choice but to march overland."

to:

**** It can do when the devs are tropers, yeah. We haven't managed to figure anything out for this yet, though.
** Because everyone is are actually BloodKnight. [[BloodKnight Blood Knights]]. See how they respect and soldier only during battle? They need more soldiers, so they go trough through the enemy army, kill, loot and pillage and conscript everyone in theri their path. Granted, that's not very heroic but atleast at least it's one explanation...
** Two reasons I can think of. The of: the army still had a lot of inexperienced soldiers, and Delfador decided to take that route to prepare them for the more grueling battles along the way; most of what they were expecting to fight were orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army, so plowing through orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army would steel the newer recruits. The other potential argument would be that the Wesnoth military would expect Konrad to go by boat after he escaped that same way, and they sent their navy to block any entry into the North by ship. Either of those make sense in the twisted recesses of this troper's mind.
** I thought of the blockade angle as well. Simply add a line in the campaign to this effect:
effect: "With Ashevier's navy blockading Elensefar, Konrad's army had no choice but to march overland."
27th Mar '11 8:03:40 AM Pulsar
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** Two reasons I can think of. The army still had a lot of inexperienced soldiers, and Delfador decided to take that route to prepare them for the more grueling battles along the way; most of what they were expecting to fight were orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army, so plowing through orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army would steel the newer recruits. The other potential argument would be that the Wesnoth military would expect Konrad to go by boat after he escaped that same way, and they sent their navy to block any entry into the North by ship. Either of those make sense in the twisted recesses of this troper's mind.

to:

** Two reasons I can think of. The army still had a lot of inexperienced soldiers, and Delfador decided to take that route to prepare them for the more grueling battles along the way; most of what they were expecting to fight were orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army, so plowing through orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army would steel the newer recruits. The other potential argument would be that the Wesnoth military would expect Konrad to go by boat after he escaped that same way, and they sent their navy to block any entry into the North by ship. Either of those make sense in the twisted recesses of this troper's mind.mind.
** I thought of the blockade angle as well. Simply add a line in the campaign to this effect:
"With Ashevier's navy blockading Elensefar, Konrad's army had no choice but to march overland."
8th Nov '10 6:41:48 PM fishsicles
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** Because everyone is actualy BloodKnight. See how they respect and soldier only during battle? They need more soldiers, so they go trough enemy army, kill, loot and pillage and conscript everyone in theri path. Granted, not very heroic but atleast it's one explanation...

to:

** Because everyone is actualy actually BloodKnight. See how they respect and soldier only during battle? They need more soldiers, so they go trough enemy army, kill, loot and pillage and conscript everyone in theri path. Granted, not very heroic but atleast it's one explanation...explanation...
** Two reasons I can think of. The army still had a lot of inexperienced soldiers, and Delfador decided to take that route to prepare them for the more grueling battles along the way; most of what they were expecting to fight were orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army, so plowing through orcs, undead, and the Wesnoth army would steel the newer recruits. The other potential argument would be that the Wesnoth military would expect Konrad to go by boat after he escaped that same way, and they sent their navy to block any entry into the North by ship. Either of those make sense in the twisted recesses of this troper's mind.
18th Oct '10 2:26:22 AM Mandemo
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**** It can do when the devs are tropers, yeah. We haven't managed to figure anything out for this yet, though.

to:

**** It can do when the devs are tropers, yeah. We haven't managed to figure anything out for this yet, though.though.
** Because everyone is actualy BloodKnight. See how they respect and soldier only during battle? They need more soldiers, so they go trough enemy army, kill, loot and pillage and conscript everyone in theri path. Granted, not very heroic but atleast it's one explanation...
17th Oct '10 9:04:56 AM thespaceinvader
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*** So an anonymous rant on a wiki makes plot holes go away? AWESOME. Thanks for looking into it.

to:

*** So an anonymous rant on a wiki makes plot holes go away? AWESOME. Thanks for looking into it.it.
**** It can do when the devs are tropers, yeah. We haven't managed to figure anything out for this yet, though.
16th Oct '10 2:42:14 PM 190.229.168.49
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** ... because then the campaign wouldn't be any fun to play. Seriously, it's a good question, we'll look into finding an appropriate handwave.

to:

** ... because then the campaign wouldn't be any fun to play. Seriously, it's a good question, we'll look into finding an appropriate handwave.handwave.
*** So an anonymous rant on a wiki makes plot holes go away? AWESOME. Thanks for looking into it.
16th Aug '10 1:41:13 PM thespaceinvader
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* In Heir to The Throne, after freeing Elensefar Konrad has to go north to fetch the scepter of fire. Now, for some reason, he can't use the ships to sail to the ford of Abez, instead crossing right through enemy territory. Even if the river weren't navigable (which it should, as it looks very wide when you have to cross it on foot), why can't Konrad & Co. cross the river by boat at it's mouth and go east through allied territory (Wesmere). That makes FAR more sense than having to plow through legions of orcs, undead, and the entire Wesnoth army before crossing the ford of Abez. Guess Delfador's a mighty Archmage, but he can't read a map.

to:

* In Heir to The Throne, after freeing Elensefar Konrad has to go north to fetch the scepter of fire. Now, for some reason, he can't use the ships to sail to the ford of Abez, instead crossing right through enemy territory. Even if the river weren't navigable (which it should, as it looks very wide when you have to cross it on foot), why can't Konrad & Co. cross the river by boat at it's mouth and go east through allied territory (Wesmere). That makes FAR more sense than having to plow through legions of orcs, undead, and the entire Wesnoth army before crossing the ford of Abez. Guess Delfador's a mighty Archmage, but he can't read a map.map.
** ... because then the campaign wouldn't be any fun to play. Seriously, it's a good question, we'll look into finding an appropriate handwave.
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