History Fridge / Saw

* The ending of Saw 3D seems to be the ultimate refusement of Jigsaw's philosophy. If there's anyone throughout the series who has shown both the will and drive to live, it's Mark Hoffman... and yet, he's left to die without any way to escape - not because of every single crime he's committed, but because he killed Jill Tuck, John's wife. Combined with all the suffering John puts people he personally knew and disagreed with through in the other movies, and it shows that despite everything he claims, John is really just a bitter, angry man lashing out at the world and adding some window dressing so he can think of himself as a good person.

[[AC:FridgeBrilliance]]

[[AC:FridgeHorror]]

[[AC:FridgeLogic]]

* When I saw ''Saw II'', I was annoyed at how the ending cut off so suddenly. Sure, Amanda's FaceHeelTurn/backstory reveal was cool even though I already knew who she'd be (although I thought she turned between the second and third films and was wondering "If he's there [in the safe], where's Amanda!?" so it wasn't a complete waste of a good twist ending),]] but it seemed a little hollow. A while later I realized: The house wasn't Jigsaw's game, and Amanda's game for Matthews wasn't for him to escape before the tape ran out, ''the whole film was the game she had set up for him!'' The Game Over was much more satisfying once I realized that Jigsaw's game hadn't led him to Amanda's trap, but it was ''entirely'' Amanda's trap and he'd already failed!

'''''All spoilers will be unmarked ahead. Administrivia/YouHaveBeenWarned!'''''

* ''Fridge/{{Jigsaw}}

[[Fridge/SawI has its own page]]

The first movie [[Fridge/SawI has its own page]].

!!FridgeBrilliance:

!!FridgeHorror:

!!FridgeLogic:

[[AC:FridgeBrilliance]]

*** The reveal of Hoffman & Amanda as Jigsaw's apprentices were twists in and of themselves. What makes them FridgeBrilliance, however, is when you realize that they revealed themselves exactly the same way that John did back in the original ''Saw:'' They were presented as mere victims in their traps, only to reveal to their ultimate victims that they were the ones ''manipulating'' the traps.

* In Saw II, the Razor Blade Box seems to initially be an inescapable trap. However, if one looks at the top of the shot as it pans higher, you can see the lock holding the top of the box closed actually has the key already in the hole. If only its victim had taken a closer look around, she could have avoided a painful and gruesome death.
* Hoffman's trap in Saw IV. Electrocuting an ungrounded person's feet is a truly terrible way to kill them, since the electricity won't go anywhere near the heart...but, since the goal wasn't really to kill Hoffman, it hardly matters.

[[AC:FridgeHorror]]

[[AC:FridgeLogic]]

* It has always been unclear to me why Lawrence's wife and daughter were also a part of the trap in the first Saw, when they weren't shown to do anything even remotely bad. I think now that John knew Zepp wouldn't kill them. Zepp did have a sadistic streak and enjoyed the power he suddenly had, waving the gun around and making and smug comments to the video feed from Bathroom Trap. On the other hand, he was quite clearly a coward (and scared shitless when he suddenly had to fight Tapp, or even when Lawrence discovered his identity), and as John knew him before, presumably he knew Zepp wouldn't be able to murder a defenseless woman and girl in cold blood even under death threat. Especially since it seems that his primary goal was to kill Lawrence rather than them. Of course that assumes that John could predict all that, but you pretty much have to accept that he's omniscient to take these movies seriously anyway.
** Another possibility: Zepp was never supposed to kill Lawrence's wife and daughter in first place, just Lawrence himself. That explains his gun-waving nicely; he had only to ''scare'' them (to put pressure on Lawrence), and did exactly that (in a clumsy manner fully expected from someone who doesn't do this sort of thing on a regular basis.) Notice how when the time runs out he doesn't tell them "I'll kill you now", he says "Lawrence made a mistake and I'll do what I have to do." Alison's sudden attack and Tapp's intervention prevented him from executing his original plan, but notice also when he stuns Tapp with a vase for some seconds, he doesn't go after her; rather, he declares, "Now I'll kill your husband" and goes off to do exactly that. The only thing that contradicts this theory is Zepp's tape, which says "Will you murder a mother and her child to save yourself?" However Adam didn't play that tape to the end; maybe the actual rules clarified that he needed only to threaten them with murder. A weak point, I know, but it makes everything else much more understandable.
*** Zepp didn't chase them because by that time he probably wouldn't find them before they had alerted somebody, and WordOfGod is his gun-waving was because he was enjoying finally having control over somebody else. And Adam ''did'' play the tape to the end. Jigsaw is simply a liar, a hyprocrite and a ManipulativeBastard and narcissistic sociopath- most of his victims are people he already knew who either annoyed him or whom he was envious of; his philosophy is not meant to be taken seriously. Given the amount of planning that goes into his traps and schemes its more likely that he is just a power-control serial torture-killer who feels the need to have people appreciate him 'vis a vie'' "saving" them and converting them to his cause, and he is perfectly willing to kill innocent people to do it (since he is never the one who actually pulls the trigger, he can probably make excuses for himself). He may be narcissistic enough to believe his own lies, but in the end he is just a loser (in his own mind) who wants to feel important.

* In Saw II, Amanda and Daniel are the only ones in the house who aren't coughing or showing other signs of dying. This shows that they have already been given the antidote.

* A lot of people were bugged because of Jill's strong badassness pretty much was undone by ''SAW 3D''. The problem is one has to look into it a lot more closely. Jill was able to get the drop on [[AxCrazy Mark]] [[KnightTemplar Hoffman]] because he was sitting down and was temporary distracted by his note to Amanda. Jill was able to pretty much own Hoffman with this info and rigged the chair that Hoffman was sitting in. The brilliance comes when you realized Jill is a trained ''doctor'', and isn't someone who clearly is not trained as a fighter. Hoffman is also overall stronger and bigger than her. Jill was hoping for Hoffman's death because she knew that she only had one shot with the Reverse Bear Trap 2.0 and knew that Hoffman would come and kill her, if he lived which is why she went to the police for help.

* A lot of people were bugged because of Jill's strong badassness pretty much was undone by ''SAW 3D''. The problem is one has to look into it a lot more closely. [[spoiler:Jill was able to get the drop on [[AxCrazy Mark]] [[KnightTemplar Hoffman]] because he was sitting down and was temporary distracted by his note to Amanda. Jill was able to pretty much own Hoffman with this info and rigged the chair that Hoffman was sitting in.]] The brilliance comes when you realized Jill is a trained ''doctor'', and isn't someone who clearly is not trained as a fighter. Hoffman is also overall stronger and bigger than her. Jill was hoping for Hoffman's death because she knew that she only had one shot with the Reverse Bear Trap 2.0 and knew that Hoffman would come and kill her, if he lived which is why she went to the police for help.
* The tagline for Saw V was, "You won't believe how it ends." Visit the IMDB message board for that film and a lot of people are crying foul, saying [[spoiler:they saw Hoffman's framing Strahm as Jigsaw coming a mile away. That's not what the tagline is referring to. Think of how the movie ends; Strahm ends up crushed - pulverized, even - in the wall trap.]] How many films before Saw V showed such a trap (hell, even Star Wars had it!), but how many of those films showed every f'in detail of the final result? You won't believe how it ends indeed!

* It makes one wonder, aside from the fact that he was justifiably angry [[spoiler: with being blamed for Seth Baxter's murder and framed/threatened him into being his apprentice, what Jigsaw saw in Hoffman and how a clever and resourceful man like himself could be ''[[HorribleJudgeOfCharacter so wrong]]'' [[EvilerThanThou about the guy.]]]] You then have to remember that the man had terminal brain cancer that was gradually getting worse and while he was still rather brilliant in most aspects (obviously enough to build traps, make sure they worked, train his apprentices, overpower his victims, etc.), at the same time he isn't a mind reader and probably never even predicted that Hoffman would someday kill his wife.

* When I saw ''Saw II'', I was annoyed at how the ending cut off so suddenly. [[spoiler: Sure, Amanda's FaceHeelTurn/backstory reveal was cool even though I already knew who she'd be (although I thought she turned between the second and third films and was wondering "If he's there [in the safe], where's Amanda!?" so it wasn't a complete waste of a good twist ending),]] but it seemed a little hollow. A while later I realized: [[spoiler: The house wasn't Jigsaw's game, and Amanda's game for Matthews wasn't for him to escape before the tape ran out, ''the whole film was the game she had set up for him!'' The Game Over was much more satisfying once I realized that Jigsaw's game hadn't led him to Amanda's trap, but it was ''entirely'' Amanda's trap and he'd already failed!]]
** To add to that, what made the twist of [[spoiler:Amanda being Jigsaw's accomplice]] really work was the realization afterward that you should not have been remotely surprised if you actually thought about it for a moment. [[spoiler:She claims that she's being punished for being 'naughty', with a flashback scene of her cutting herself. But as is revealed at the end of the film, with the same scene shown but with a wider shot showing Jigsaw rooting her on, a man whose entire philosophy is based on proving through bloodshed that you value life would hardly have condemned her for such an act.]]

*** Also, as noted in the [[WordOfGod Director Commentary]], not once during the entirety of the gas house [[spoiler:did Amanda show symptoms of the gas such as the coughing everyone else did.]]
** The twist in the original ''Saw'' was definitely cool, but after the adrenaline wore off logic tried to reassert itself. [[spoiler:How did John stay so still? How did they not hear him breathing?]] When you rewatch the film, it gives you the answers: [[spoiler:presumably he took the same nerve agent that kept the man from whom Amanda had to retrieve the key to her trap immobile, and his breath would naturally be rather weak given that he had cancer.]]
*** ''Saw III'' confirmed what was mentioned in the above spoiler.
** ''Saw IV'' - while being a clusterfuck example of fragmented narrative, to say the least - had one part that seemed illogical at first, but made sense later (like a year later). When [[spoiler: Rigg freed the Paris Hilton look-a-like from that hair pulling contraption, and then she later pulled out a knife stored in a cabinet, it brings out a curious question. How come she didn't tell him it was there, so he could free her from the device by cutting her hair instead of a slow reveal of the combination? It certainly would've eliminated any risk and/or extreme pain? Later, it became apparent that the test was a double entendre, based off Jigsaw's lesson in Saw IV: the only way people can be saved is to save themselves. If the blonde woman really valued her life, she would've told Rigg about the knife, but her selfishness became her undoing]] - t3hdow

*** The reveal as [[spoiler:Hoffman & Amanda]] as Jigsaw's apprentices were twists in and of themselves. What makes them FridgeBrilliance, however, is when you realize that they revealed themselves exactly the same way that John did back in the original ''Saw:'' They were presented as mere victims in their traps, only to reveal to their ultimate victims that they were the ones ''manipulating'' the traps.

* Many people have taken issue with the fact that despite Bobby Dagen being the one who is being tested, his wife dies despite his trying his hardest to save her and his friends. Then it occurred to me: In V, Jigsaw mentions that he finds taking credit for someone else's work to be distasteful, especially when that work is inferior to his own. He was referring to Hoffman at the time, but the same basic principle can be applied to Bobby: Bobby was posing as a Jigsaw victim, thus ''imitating'' the other victims. He made up a poorly-conceived trap, when it's fairly obvious to anyone with medical knowledge [[spoiler:(such as Doctor Gordon)]] that the pectoral muscles aren't strong enough to support the weight of the human body. Thus, it would make sense that Bobby is punished the harshest by having to watch his friends and wife die. It's no less inexcusable, but it makes more sense.

* A lot of people were bugged because of Jill's strong badassness pretty much was undone by ''SAW 3D''. The problem is one has to look into it a lot more closely. [[spoiler:Jill was able to get the drop on [[AxCrazy Mark]] [[KnightTemplar Hoffman]] because he was sitting down and was temporary distracted by his note to Amanda. Jill was able to pretty much own Hoffman with this info and rigged the chair that Hoffman was sitting in.]] The brilliance comes when you realized Jill is a trained ''doctor'', and isn't someone who clearly is not trained as a fighter. [[spoiler:Hoffman is also overall stronger and bigger then her. Jill was hoping for Hoffman's death because she knew that she only had one shot with the Reverse Bear Trap 2.0 and knew that Hoffman would come and kill her, if he lived which is why she went to the police for help.]]

** [[spoiler: ''Film/Thir13enGhosts'' had it at the end.]]

* It makes one wonder, aside from the fact that he was justifiably angry [[spoiler: with being blamed for Seth Baxter's murder and framed/threatened him into being his apprentice, what Jigsaw saw in Hoffman and how a clever and resourceful man like himself could be ''[[HorribleJudgeOfCharacter so wrong]]'' [[EvilerThanThou about the guy.]]]] You then have to remember that the man had terminal brain cancer that was gradually getting worse and while he was still rather brilliant in most aspects (obviously enough to build traps, make sure they worked, train his apprentices, overpower his victims, etc.), at the same time he isn't a mind reader and probably never even predicted that [[spoiler: Hoffman would someday kill his wife.]]
** [[spoiler:Or at the beginning, at the very least. Jigsaw must have realized that should Hoffman find a way to survive his test, then Jill will be in great danger. Which is why he arranged for Dr. Gordon to execute Hoffman just before his death; as ''Saw VI'' implies, John knew Hoffman's sociopathy makes him unfit to continue his legacy.]]

* If John could predict human behavior, then he knew that, at the end of the sixth film's main game, [[spoiler:Brent would kill William. This means that he knew William would die, even if he had redeemed himself and learned his lesson, which, considering all he went through and who he chose to let live, he certainly did. This means that William's game was no more of a test than Amanda's traps; it was only a death trap. Yes, that means Jigsaw is guilty of using one of his games as revenge, rather than trying to teach someone a lesson. The fact that this game was part of his "final wish" says something about his priorities]].
** John could also predict that [[spoiler: William was going to save only the women, which could also have been planned to enrage [[TheScrappy Brent]] further, because in his imbalanced state, the kid could easily be swayed to believe William's decision of refusing to cover his dad was based partly on gender.]]
*** I think that people might be seriously over-interpreting this [[spoiler: sexism]] angle - I never even noticed it when I saw the movie and I don't recall any references being made in the characters' dialogue to this being an issue.
*** Well, there were [[spoiler: Josh's last words]], when he yelled at him for being "pussy-whipped" and how "a bitch" takes precedence...
*** That only proves that ''[[spoiler: Josh]]'' is sexist, not that William is.

* In the sixth film, [[spoiler: Brent kills William in cold blood right in front of his innocent sister, meaning there is a witness who is probably going to tell the police about his actions.]] True, [[spoiler: the viewer probably doesn’t give a shit about [[TheScrappy Brent]], but what about his mom? The poor woman just lost her husband and now her son is likely going to do time in prison.]]

* Crossing over with fridge horror but how is it that Jigsaw [[spoiler: and Amanda, Hoffman and so forth]] were able to seemingly know how much of the sedatives to use on their victims prior to kidnapping them? I mean [[spoiler: ''Film/{{Jigsaw}}'' finally gave us an example of someone who ''didn't'' wake up in uniform time like the other victims, only to be awakened by Kramer due to him realizing how "unfair" it would be to be killed in his sleep]], but was there ever an incident where someone had an adverse reaction to the sedative (due to taking something else that screwed with the effectiveness of the drug) or perhaps even an overdose of what they had pumped into them?

* In ''Jigsaw'', with the part consisting of the [[spoiler: three syringes, why didn't they just test them on the ground? Surely the acid-filled one's reaction would have been obvious.]]
** [[spoiler: Depends how strong the acid is, and what the floor's actually made of in that room. At a minimum, though, they might at least have tested a single drop on someone's ''skin'', to check if it stung, before shooting it into Carly's bloodstream ... maybe even ''Carly's'' skin, since it was her life most at stake. Given that they'd ''already'' shown they had the nerve to touch a spinning saw blade, it can't even be argued that they feared the risk of a painful chemical burn too much to try.]]

* Crossing over with fridge horror but how is it that Jigsaw [[spoiler: and Amanda, Hoffman and so forth]] were able to know how much poison, drugs, or sedatives to use on their victims prior to kidnapping them? I mean [[spoiler: ''Film/{{Jigsaw}}'' finally gave us an example of someone who ''didn't'' wake up in uniform time like the other victims, only to be awakened by Kramer due to him realizing how "unfair" it would be to be killed in his sleep]], but was there ever an incident where someone had an adverse reaction to the poison (due to taking something else that screwed with the effectiveness of the drug) or perhaps even an overdose of what they had pumped into them?

** [[spoiler: Depends how strong the acid is, and what the floor's actually made of in that room. At a minimum, though, they might at least have tested a single drop on someone's ''skin'', to check if it stung, before shooting it into Carly's bloodstream ... maybe even ''Carly's'' skin, since it was her life most at stake. Given that they'd ''already'' shown they had the nerve to touch a spinning saw blade, it can't even be argued that they feared the risk of a painful chemical burn too much to try.]]

* Crossing over with fridge horror but how is it that Jigsaw [[spoiler: and Amanda, Hoffman and so forth]] were able to know how much poison or whatever to use on their victims prior to kidnapping them? I mean [[spoiler: ''Film/{{Jigsaw}}'' finally gave us an example of someone who ''didn't'' wake up in uniform time like the other victims, only to be awakened by Kramer due to him realizing how "unfair" it would be to be killed in his sleep]], but was there ever an incident where someone had an adverse reaction to the poison (due to taking something else that screwed with the effectiveness of the drug) or perhaps even an overdose of what they had pumped into them?

* How is it that Jigsaw [[spoiler: and Amanda, Hoffman and so forth]] was able to know how much poison or whatever to use on their victims prior to kidnapping them? I mean [[spoiler: ''Film/{{Jigsaw}}'' finally gave us an example of someone who ''didn't'' wake up in uniform time like the other victims, only to be awakened by Kramer due to him realizing how "unfair" it would be to be killed in his sleep]], but was there ever an incident where someone had an adverse reaction to the poison (due to taking something else that screwed with the effectiveness of the drug) or perhaps even an overdose of what they had pumped into them?

*** Considering how messed up William's head clearly was by the time the carousel's potential targets were reduced to two, it's entirely plausible that he decided ''not to decide at all'', and just left it to luck: whichever person was the next to halt in front of the shotgun, male or female, he'd save. It's not like he was demonstrably counting how many spaces it turned between one firing and the next, after all; the guy was barely coherent by then.

** Depends how strong the acid is. At a minimum, though, they might at least have tested a single drop on someone's ''skin'' before shooting it into someone's bloodstream, to see if it stung ... maybe even ''Carly's'' skin, since it was her life most at stake.

* In ''Jigsaw'', with the part consisting of the [[spoiler: three syringes, why didn't they just test them on the ground? Surely the acid-filled one's reaction would have been obvious.]]