History Fridge / Catherine

* In stage 3, Vincent is being chased by an upside-down body with a tongue protruding from the...er...behind. Each monster he faces is stated to have come from his own mind. Well, the next morning, [[YourCheatingHeart Catherine]] calls him a "perv" but refuses to expand on what they did... ''[[BrainBleach Eww]]''. She was probably lying to further tempt Vincent, but the implication is still there.

* At various points, there are references to Erika being hurt badly in a previous relationship. Then comes the revelation that she is a male-to-female transexual, and it becomes clear that she was the victim of a hate crime. Suddenly, Vincent, Johnny, and Orlando's desire to keep Toby from dating her looks very different.

** She's a transsexual, and has had the surgery, as Toby would know if she hadn't. Therefore, she has no means to reproduce.
*** I know that, but the point of winning the Nightmare Sequence doesn't have something to do with making babies. Men are thrown in there to die because they are in a relationship that won't produce kids. Erica had the nightmares because she was with Toby, who wants kids but didn't know she was a transsexual.

*** Since it was just [[spoiler:a dream Katherine]], it was just a [[spoiler:part of Vincent's own mind and obviously couldn't actually plan anything]]. Whether or not [[spoiler:the dream had to go as shown or if it could have gone another way (possibly leading to Vincent's death or a bluff) is very unclear]], especially since we don't know if it really was [[spoiler:the kind of dream where you can die or if Catherine had anything to do with it]].
* [[spoiler:If Dumuzid's plan was to increase the world's population by horrifically killing people who hindered reproduction, just imagine what he could and '''would''' do if he wanted to limit or decrease the population! So many sheep, so little time...]]
* So [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] [[GodNeedsPrayersBadly needs prayers badly]], but there's a minority who don't believe in him, and they are disrupting society to the point of RageAgainstTheHeavens. What does he do with the minority? [[spoiler:Send them through this nightly endeavor by allowing angels to select a person who will obtain "True Freedom".]] This is implied by [[spoiler:Astartoth and Thomas Mutton, both of whom are angels or work under them]].
* Let's assume [[spoiler:Erica]] was having ''the'' nightmares for keeping [[spoiler:Toby]] from a relationship that would produce children. How many innocent unsuspecting LGBT people could have or did die because of [[spoiler:Dumuzid]] [[IWantGrandkids wanting grandkids?]]
** It seems to mainly be an issue of people leading their partners on. [[spoiler:Toby didn't know about Erica's past at the time it was implied that she was having the nightmares.]] Transpeople who disclose their history to their partners probably wouldn't be affected, since everyone involved would either leave the relationship or choose to stay with the full knowledge that it won't result in children.

* In stage 3, Vincent is being chased by an upside-down body with a tongue protruding from the...er...behind. Each monster he faces is stated to have come from his own mind. Well, the next morning, [[YourCheatingHeart Catherine]] calls him a "perv" but refuses to expand on what they did...''[[BrainBleach Eww]]''. [[spoiler:She was probably lying to further tempt Vincent, but the implication is still there.]]
** Later in the game, by meeting the right conditions, Midnight Venus reveals herself as [[spoiler:Ishtar]] and [[BreakingTheFourthWall congratulates the player character]] by [[spoiler:making you her co-deity of love]] with everything that goes with it. The problem? [[spoiler:Ishtar's]] lovers, even the non-mortal ones, had a tendency to [[DeathBySex end up dead]], as pointed out waaay back in ''Literature/TheEpicOfGilgamesh''. With that in mind, though, maybe it's better that you ''don't'' [[WomanScorned turn her down]].

* At various points, there are references to Erika being hurt badly in a previous relationship. [[spoiler:Then comes the revelation that she is a male-to-female transexual, and it becomes clear that she was the victim of a hate crime. Suddenly, Vincent, Johnny, and Orlando's desire to keep Toby from dating her looks very different.]]
** Or maybe [[spoiler:the partner in the aforementioned relationship wasn't supportive]].

*** They only say she was hurt by the relationship, they don't explain how. [[spoiler:Maybe she just didn't explain to her previous partner who she used to be or how she felt; Toby is a nice guy, but even he got upset about being left in the dark. Sure, she's still on friendly terms with ''him'', but it's not hard to believe that someone else might take the info much more negatively if they weren't informed from the start.]]
*** [[spoiler:And many anti-trans hate crimes are born from that exact scenario.]]

** [[spoiler:Nothing, because it was a dream.]]
*** [[spoiler:The entire point of the game is that people are dying in real life because they died in a dream. And given that that cut scene happened in one of THOSE dreams...]]
*** [[spoiler:That was Vincent's dream, not Katherine's. There's no indication that people can die in someone else's dream.]]
*** I know [[spoiler:that was Vincent's dream, but he could have been killed and died in the real world because Katherine would have killed him if she had gotten the knife]].
*** Wait, I thought [[spoiler:Katherine was going to kill Catherine]].
*** She could [[spoiler:be planning on using the knife as a bluff, considering that she was horrified to see that she accidentally killed Catherine]].

** [[spoiler:Archie]] outright confims this on a later landing, [[spoiler:if you save him and Todd. Todd's]] reaction to this probably matches the player's.
--> '''[[spoiler:Todd]]''': Holy [[PrecisionFStrike fuck!]]
** Considering [[spoiler:Archie's having the nightmares for sleeping around]] and Vincent's just wearing what he falls asleep in for the nightmare stages (i.e. just his boxers), he... might or might not have been wearing much, if anything, for his first boss encounter. [[{{Squick}} Yikes.]]

** However, closer to mid-late parts of the game, [[spoiler:Astaroth mentions that many of the sheep who are climbing with you are actually insane men who no longer have physical bodies in our world]]. So it really depends on your interpretation. Judging by how the death toll on the news doesn't get any higher no matter how many sheep you watch fall to their deaths, it might be leaning towards that explanation.
* At the end of the super challenge thingummy, [[spoiler:Ishtar]] decides to go after ''you'', the player. '''This is not a good thing.''' Remember ''Literature/TheEpicOfGilgamesh''? Sure, she's a pretty girl, but in the end she always gets tired of her lovers and does away with them. [[spoiler:Mutton]] should just thank his lucky stars that he's easier to leave than kill...

* If the point of the Nightmare Sequence has something to do with making babies, shouldn't it be automatically {{Unwinnable}} for Erica?]]

** It isn't certain that Justin's correct. For all we know, this has been going on every single year. Alternatively, [[spoiler:Mutton]] was simply lying. Or maybe Atlus simply missed it.

* If the point of the Nightmare Sequence has something to do with making babies, shouldn't it be automatically {{Unwinnable}} for [[spoiler:Erica?]]
** ...Wait, what?
*** [[spoiler:She's a transsexual, and has had the surgery, as Toby would know if she hadn't. Therefore, she has no means to reproduce.]]
*** I know that, but the point of winning the Nightmare Sequence doesn't have something to do with making babies. [[spoiler:Men are thrown in there to die because they are in a relationship that won't produce kids. Erica had the nightmares because she was with Toby, who wants kids but didn't know she was a transsexual.]]

*** Even if she was having the Nightmare, you don't have to follow [[spoiler:Dumuzid's]] rules to escape. Vincent is able to win even if he takes the Cheaters or Freedom route.
*** He technically won ''before'' then, but challenged [[spoiler:Dumuzid]] to another round.

** But they ''are'' heading for the top... [[spoiler:Shadow of Vincent seemed to be toying with Vincent, though.]]
** It looks like [[spoiler:Shadow of Vincent]], [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton]], and [[spoiler:the Dumuzid]] are the only bosses who aren't restricted to climbing, so probably not.

** [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid]] always believed that Vincent could never win against him. Removing Vincent's win condition from the get-go is like acknowledging that Vincent is an actual threat.

* Justin says that the series of unexplained deaths among men happens every hundred years. Later, [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton claims that if he hadn't gotten the wrong man away from Vincent's mother, he wouldn't have been born]]. Wouldn't that have been much more recent than 100 years ago?

** Margin of error? There's no indications that would tell us how long the [[spoiler:nightmares]] last, so while they could happen every hundred years, they might also last several decades.
* If Vincent knew he'd be confronting [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton]] in his dreams on the ninth night, why didn't he wear more clothes to bed?

* Speaking of boxers, if [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton]] is anything to go by, you look like a sheep in boxers (with an afro) to all the other sheep in the dreams. So doesn't that mean a lot of the other sheep wore clothes to bed?
** [[spoiler:Mutton]] is the only one to remark on Vincent's underwear, and can probably see everyone in the nightmares as they really are. To the other sheep, Vincent is just "Sheep with Afro".
* So since [[spoiler:Katherine killed Catherine in the knife struggle]], did she [[TookALevelInBadass take a level in badass?]]
** [[spoiler:It was just a dream, so it's irrelevant.]]
** Considering the angle, it looks more like it was an accident and [[spoiler:Katherine]] clearly isn't at all happy with the outcome. Probably not an example of badassery.
* If the whole point of these dreams is [[spoiler:to remove men from relationships that won't result in children, then could committed, but infertile men be subjected to the dreams? And what about lesbians? One would assume that adoption wouldn't be a way out of Ishtar's scheme, for while that is child rearing, it doesn't do anything to increase the population. I guess in-vitro fertilization is still a choice, there, but would that count?]]
** Check the Fridge Brilliance section. [[spoiler:Ishtar]] admits that the given reason [[spoiler:is bull and she just wants a new boyfriend]].
** [[spoiler:OR girlfriend, considering she talks to the PLAYER, not Vincent.]]

* One of the confessional questions is "Boxers or briefs?" — kind of an odd thing to ask Vincent, since [[ComedicUnderwearExposure he's clearly already made his choice]], so answering "briefs" would just be hypocritical on his part. However, [[spoiler:Astaroth, who is an avatar of Ishtar, is responsible for the questions, and Ishtar/Trisha always speaks directly to the player. So the question isn't really for Vincent anyway]].

* The reason given by [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid]] for the nightmares doesn't sound very real at first, considering [[spoiler:the size of humanity]]. However, when you get to the intro for Axis Mundi, [[spoiler:Ishtar]] admits that the stated reason was really just bull and its ''real'' reason was to find [[spoiler:someone who could be her consort to replace Dumuzid]].
* You might wonder why Catherine managed to get your phone number and sends texts even if you don't respond. It makes perfect sense when you remember that (and this is barely a spoiler) [[spoiler:she's a succubus whose texts disappear the moment you win your freedom]]. She probably was able to just [[spoiler:send everything directly to Vincent and never his phone]].
* Catherine's photos to you. If you pay attention and apply a bit of Fridge Logic, you'll notice that [[spoiler:several seem far too professional to do with a phone]]. They suddenly make a lot more sense once you find out that [[spoiler:they're all illusions that follow what Vincent wants]].
* While playing the game, when you do well and climb fast, you'll hear people cheering you. Eventually, I realised that there was a pretty good in-universe reason for this happening as [[spoiler:the other sheep climbing comes to see you as a leader as you progress through the tower]]. —Mew seeker

* It makes sense that Toby isn't affected by the dreams for a few reasons. One, he wants to find his soulmate and have a family, and is looking for a woman who he can have that with ([[spoiler:the reason that Erica, a trans woman, is affected by the dreams, for keeping him from doing so]]), so he doesn't fit the MO of the men who usually must climb. Second, he's simply too young. The majority of the victims are men in their late twenties/early thirties or so, as are their partners. Toby is only 23, and doesn't qualify; likely the only way he ''would'' qualify would be if he were with an older woman with no intent to marry her, but given his preferences and what he wants, he likely wouldn't qualify anyway.
* Playing with the concept of Chaos (Catherine) and Order (Katherine), [[spoiler:their Alternate Endings in Full Body involve the ladies playing with their opposite theme. Catherine, who genuinely loves Vincent by the end of her route, goes back in time so that they could have an ideal romantic story as an ordinary human girl, embracing order to dedicate her life to Vincent. Katherine, after her break up with Vincent at the end of her route, decides to let go of her more conservative personality and decides to let loose more by becoming a model and becoming popular through her beauty, embracing chaos to feel more free.]]

* What if [[spoiler:Katherine actually got the knife instead of Catherine on the 7th day?]]

* Consider the stages where Vincent directly interacts with other sheep, instead of them just falling to their deaths in the background. The bosses for those areas are based off of fear of commitment, which is why you never see the NPC sheep (who all have a constant, specific boss in their Nightmares). So why did he run into [[spoiler:Steve]] after fighting [[spoiler:his Shadow]]? Because Shadow of Vincent was ''also'' a monster to [[spoiler:Steve]], as the man who stole Catherine from him. When he realizes the sheep before him is Vincent, the Shadow appears and sheds its mask.

* One of the confessional questions is "Are you a masochist or sadist?", with "Sadist" as the "Chaos" answer and "Masochist" as the "Law" answer. The "Good Cheater" ending's credit pictures show [[spoiler:Vincent and Catherine engaged in S&M activities, with Vincent as the Masochist]]. To get the "Good Cheater" ending, Vincent has to be mostly, but not fully, committed to Chaos. [[spoiler:He craves excitement enough to live with Catherine in the Netherworld, but that little bit of Law manifests as masochistic tendencies.]]
** [[spoiler:Relatedly, "Good Cheater" Vincent still partially desires stability, so he settles into a kinky, but ultimately stable, relationship with Catherine. Whereas the fully chaotic "True Cheater" Vincent grows restless just living with Catherine and takes over the whole damn place.]]

** Yet another for the fridge; when Vincent is drunk, he walks around in a really odd manner. Until you realize he stumbles around like a [[spoiler:sheep]].
* Another for the fridge; [[spoiler:Dumuzid's plan doesn't really make sense. He wants to increase the population by forcing people to get married. In a world in which the global population is a massive drain on resources and the planet, his plan seems absolutely idiotic... unless you consider the fact that his plan may be exclusively focused on the dwindling Japanese population.]]
** [[spoiler:Doubtful that he's focusing on Japan, the game is set in America.]]
*** [[spoiler:Still works if you're in Europe or North America — they've got an aging population and dwindling reproduction that isn't much better than, or - in the case of Germany/Italy/Spain - arguably worse than, Japan. The only difference is that Europe has an influx of immigrants, which masks the problems of declining reproduction such as [[https://www.businessinsider.com/spain-at-risk-demographic-time-bomb-abandoned-towns-2018-7?IR=T#residents-began-abandoning-la-estrella-and-other-rural-towns-in-1939-at-the-end-of-spains-civil-war-here-offerings-are-placed-behind-the-altar-at-the-village-sanctuary-3 in Spain, where the immigrants would usually head to the cities, with entire villages near abandoned.]]]]

** [[spoiler:It probably has something to do with what we learn in the True Freedom ending. Namely that the series is set in a time period where not only do they have massive, futuristic starships, but space colonies that look like regular towns, raising the question of whether or not the ENTIRE GAME takes place in space. If something happened to earth and humanity was surviving on space stations, that would certainly call for ensuring survival, wouldn't it?]]
** [[spoiler:Bear in mind that Dumuzid is working under Ishtar, a goddess of ''fertility''. It probably has less to do with actually keeping the human population up; rather, suppose that in order to sustain her power or possibly even to exist, Ishtar needs humans to breed? It certainly makes more sense, then, if that were the true purpose.]]
** [[spoiler:It's probably not that. If all she needs are for humans to breed, then she's probably one of the most powerful deities in existence. If she gains power from breeding, it's likely that she needs first to exercise her divine abilities and touch on the situation, gaining power not from the general breeding populace but from the breeding of those who have survived her trials.]]
* Consider the stages where Vincent directly interacts with other sheep, instead of them just falling to their deaths in the background. The bosses for those areas are based off of fear of commitment, which is why you never see the NPC sheep (who all have a constant, specific boss in their Nightmares). So why did he run into [[spoiler:Steve]] after fighting [[spoiler:his Shadow]]? Because [[spoiler:Shadow of Vincent]] was ''also'' a monster to [[spoiler:Steve]], [[spoiler:as the man who stole Catherine from him. When he realizes the sheep before him is Vincent, the Shadow appears and sheds its mask]].
* More Fridge involving [[spoiler:Shadow of Vincent]]. It's the only boss who never actively pursues Vincent, nor can Vincent outrun it. Instead, it hovers around the sides of the tower at the same level as him, constantly. This makes perfect sense; [[spoiler:you can't outrun your own Shadow, after all. As it says in its BossBanter, it's ''always'' watching him]]. Additionally, it's the only boss who doesn't get vaporised by the light of the door at the end of the night. [[spoiler:Going by implied continuity with the ''Persona'' series, the only way to defeat a berserk Shadow for good is to accept it as part of yourself, which Vincent ''didn't'' do.]]
* Why is the KarmaMeter in this game leaning towards UnfortunateImplications? Consider that the Nightmare world is under the jurisdiction of [[spoiler:[[HypocriticalHumor a womanizing man]] who gained the powers of [[EldritchAbomination a god]]. Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid is either taking out his own issues on average Joes and lying about why so he looks good, or he's just incapable of changing his ways unless defeated. And in the myths, he was condemned to the Underworld because he didn't mourn his wife when she was trapped there, which is why he's working with ''demons'']]. In short, it's DeliberateValuesDissonance.

* The reason given by [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid]] for the nightmares doesn't sound very real at first, considering [[spoiler:the size osf humanity]]. However, when you get to the intro for Axis Mundi, [[spoiler:Ishtar]] admits that the stated reason was really just bull and its ''real'' reason was to find [[spoiler:someone who could be her consort to replace Dumuzid]].

*** [[spoiler:Still works if you're in Europe — they've got an aging population that isn't much (or even any) better than Japan. Actually, Dumuzid's plan also works even in the USA or Australia in the long run, as immigration is the only thing that keeping the population young, and even that is only delaying the aging, not stopping it entirely.]]

* The reason given by [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid]] for the nightmares doesn't sound very real at first, considering [[spoiler:the size of humanity]]. However, when you get to the intro for Axis Mundi, [[spoiler:Ishtar]] admits that the stated reason was really just bull and its ''real'' reason was to find [[spoiler:someone who could be her consort to replace Dumuzid]].

** Yet another for the fridge; when Vincent is drunk, he walks around in a really odd manner. Until you realize he stumbles around like a [[spoiler:sheep.]]
* Another for the fridge; [[spoiler:Dumuzid's plan doesn't really make sense. He wants to increase the population by forcing people to get married. In a world in which the global population is a massive drain on resources and the planet, his plan seems absolutely idiotic. Unless you consider the fact that his plan may be exclusively focused on the dwindling Japanese population.]]

*** [[spoiler: Still works if you're in Europe - they've got an aging population that isn't much (or even any) better than Japan. Actually, Dumuzid's plan also work even in USA or Australia in the long run, as immigration is the only thing that keeping the population young, and even that is only delaying the aging, not stopping it entirely.]]
** It's probably more about survival of the fittest. Let's assume that unfaithfulness and inability to commit are inheritable. The mastermind would probably think "What good are these guys? I don't want them to produce the next generation" and so he offs them (which by the way will still drop the population count). At least that's how I see it.

** [[spoiler:Bear in mind that Dumuzid is working under Ishtar, a goddess of ''fertility''. It probably has less to do with actually keeping the human population up; rather, suppose that in order to sustain her power or possibly even to exist, Ishtar needs humans to breed? It certainly makes more sense then, if that were the true purpose.]]
** [[spoiler: It's probably not that. If all she needs are for humans to breed then she's probably one of the most powerful deities in existence. If she gains power from breeding, it's likely that she needs first to exercise her divine abilities and touch on the situation, gaining power not from the general breeding populace but from the breeding of those who have survived her trials.]]
* Consider the stages where Vincent directly interacts with other sheep, instead of them just falling to their deaths in the background. The bosses for those areas are based off of fear of commitment, which is why you never see the NPC sheep (who all have a constant, specific boss in their Nightmares). So why did he run into [[spoiler:Steve]] after fighting [[spoiler:his Shadow]]? Because [[spoiler:Shadow of Vincent]] was ''also'' a monster to [[spoiler:Steve]], [[spoiler:as the man who stole Catherine from him. When he realizes the sheep before him is Vincent, the Shadow appears and sheds its mask.]]
* More Fridge involving [[spoiler: Shadow of Vincent]]. It's the only boss who never actively pursues Vincent, nor can Vincent outrun it. Instead it hovers around the sides of the tower at the same level as him, constantly. This makes perfect sense [[spoiler: you can't outrun your own Shadow, after all. As it says in its BossBanter, it's ''always'' watching him.]] Additionally, it's the only boss who doesn't get vaporised by the light of the door at the end of the night. [[spoiler: Going by implied continuity with the ''Persona'' series, the only way to defeat a berserk Shadow for good is to accept it as part of yourself, which Vincent ''didn't'' do.]]
* Why is the KarmaMeter in this game leaning towards UnfortunateImplications? Consider that the Nightmare world is under the jurisdiction of [[spoiler:[[HypocriticalHumor a womanizing man]] who gained the powers of [[EldritchAbomination a god]]. Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid is either taking out his own issues on average Joes and lying about why so he looks good, or he's just incapable of changing his ways unless defeated. And in the myths, he was condemned to the Underworld because he didn't mourn his wife when she was trapped there, which is why he's working with ''demons''.]] In short, it's DeliberateValuesDissonance.
* One of the confessional questions is "Are you a masochist or sadist?", with "Sadist" as the "Chaos" answer and "Masochist" as the "Law" answer. The "Good Cheater" ending's credit pictures show [[spoiler:Vincent and Catherine engaged in S&M activities, with Vincent as the Masochist.]] To get the "Good Cheater" ending, Vincent has to be mostly, but not fully, committed to Chaos. [[spoiler:He craves excitement enough to live with Catherine in the Netherworld, but that little bit of Law manifests as masochistic tendencies.]]

* One of the confessional questions is "Boxers or briefs?" -- kind of an odd thing to ask Vincent, since [[ComedicUnderwearExposure he's clearly already made his choice]], so answering "briefs" would just be hypocritical on his part. However, [[spoiler:Astaroth, who is an avatar of Ishtar, is responsible for the questions, and Ishtar/Trisha always speaks directly to the player. So the question isn't really for Vincent anyway.]]
* Why does it seem like when they're trading techniques, it's hinting towards [[ADateWithRosiePalms "certain]] techniques"? The fact that they're climbing a tower doesn't help.

*** Context is what's most important here, BettyAndVeronica isn't about the girl's personalities as much as it is about how they relate to other members of the LoveTriangle[=/=]Harem, and specifically how easily attainable are they (be it because of class, attitude, or appearance), with Betties being ordinary and easy to "catch" without causing any major fusses while a Veronica is a girl that would otherwise seem out of their guy's league. Compared to IllGirl Fuuka, FemBot Aigis, UpTownGirl Mitsuru, and... [[BonusBoss whatever the heck]] Elizabeth is, the Tsundere ClingyJealousGirl Yukari is ''easily'' the Betty of her game. On the other hand, GenkiGirl IdolSinger Rise is an extremely popular Idol whose competition are all rather normal high school girls, in appearance and personality if not profession, like the TomBoy Chie, YamatoNadeshiko Yukiko, and SweetPollyOliver Naoto, which makes her the game's most obvious Veronica. So frankly the voice actresses still line up with their original role's archetypes rather nicely.
* It's implied that every time Vincent has a nightmare, he's actually sleeping with Catherine. All boss battles end with a [[DoesThisRemindYouOfAnything stream of white shot right at the boss's face while Vincent basks in the afterglow from the door]]

* While playing the game, when you do well and climb fast, you'll hear people cheering you. Eventually, I realised that there was a pretty good in-universe reason for this happening as [[spoiler: the other sheeps climbing comes to see you as a leader as you progress through the tower]]. —Mew seeker
* Given Atlus's major investments in the Persona series, and that series' preoccupation with associating people with the major arcana of the tarot, having this game center around The Tower makes perfect sense. The Tower, in the tarot, is considered an arcana with heavy associations with catastrophe, destruction, accidents, damage, liberation, and major changes in one's life.

** One of the greatest themes of the game is following one's own destiny and earning one's freedom through their labors. Vincent is constantly climbing the tower every night in order to earn the freedom of himself and the other "sheep" who climb it. "The man of legends" is given the opportunity to earn his freedom and whatsoever he chooses if he successfully climbs the tower. And, in the end of the game, one of Vincent's biggest choices is in deciding whether he wants the stability of a calm life, or if he'd be willing to face some danger to have an exciting life. With a great deal being focused on the dichotomy of order vs chaos (freedom). With the True Freedom ending being that Vincent chooses neither and makes a freedom of his own.
* It makes sense that Toby isn't affected by the dreams for a few reasons. One, he wants to find his soulmate and have a family, and is looking for a woman who he can have that with ([[spoiler: the reason that Erica, a trans woman, is affected by the dreams, for keeping him from doing so]]), so he doesn't fit the MO of the men who usually must climb. Second, he's simply too young. The majority of the victims are men in their late twenties/early thirties or so, as are their partners. Toby is only 23, and doesn't qualify; likely the only way he ''would'' qualify would be if he were with an older woman with no intent to marry her, but given his preferences and what he wants he likely wouldn't qualify anyway.

* FridgeHorror: What if [[spoiler:Katherine actually got the knife instead of Catherine on the 7th day?]]

*** [[spoiler: That was Vincent's dream, not Katherine's. There's no indication that people can die in someone else's dream.]]
*** I know [[spoiler:that was Vincent's dream, but he could have been killed and died in the real world because Katherine would have killed him if she had gotten the knife.]]
*** Wait, I thought [[spoiler:Katherine was going to kill Catherine.]]
*** She could [[spoiler:be planning on using the knife as a bluff. Considering that she was horrified to see that she accidentally killed Catherine.]]

* More Fridge Horror [[spoiler:If Dumuzid's plan was to increase the world's population by horrifically killing people who hindered reproduction, just imagine what he could and WOULD do if he wanted to limit or decrease the population! So many sheep, so little time...]]

* At various points, there are references to Erika being hurt badly in a previous relationship. [[spoiler:Then comes the revelation that she is a male-to-female transexual, and it becomes clear that she was the victim of a hate crime. Suddenly, Vincent, Johnny, and Orlando's desire to keep Toby from dating her looks very different]].

* There's an easy-to-miss one in the rest area/confession booth thing, from the sixth level on. Talking to the longhaired sheep, you learn that the monster he keeps trying to outrun is his mother, a mother who tried to 'lock him away' but that he escaped and has been running ever since. On one of the landings when you talk to him, he mentions that her hands were always cold and that she [[ParentalIncest never let him wear clothes....]]

** Considering [[spoiler: Archie's having the nightmares for sleeping around]] and Vincent's just wearing what he falls asleep in for the nightmare stages (i.e. just his boxers), he... might or might not have been wearing much, if anything, for his first boss encounter. [[{{Squick}} Yikes.]]

** However, closer to mid-late parts of the game, [[spoiler: Astaroth mentions that many of the sheep who are climbing with you are actually insane men who no longer have physical bodies in our world.]] So it really depends on your interpretation. Judging by how the death toll on the news doesn't get any higher no matter how many sheep you watch fall to their deaths, it might be leaning towards that explanation.

* If the point of the Nightmare Sequence has something to do with making babies. Shouldn't it be automatically UnWinnable for [[spoiler:Erica?]]

*** [[spoiler:She's a transsexual, and has had the surgery as Toby would know if she hadn't. Therefore, she has no means to reproduce.]]

*** It is never proven that Erica is having THE nightmares. All the talk seemed to only give her just one, unrelated nightmare.

* Justin says that the series of unexplained deaths among men happens every hundred years. Later, [[spoiler:Thomas Mutton claims that if he hadn't gotten the wrong man away from Vincent's mother, he wouldn't have been born.]] Wouldn't that have been much more recent than 100 years ago?
** It isn't certain that Justin's correct. For all we know this has been going on every single year. Alternatively, [[spoiler:Mutton]] was simply lying. Or maybe Atlus simply missed it.

** He's trying to defeat him to win his lover back, not taking him out on a date. He's not self conscious enough to give a crap about how naked he may or may not be during his dreams.

* Casting Creator/LauraBailey and MichelleRuff to voice Catherine and Katherine respectively in the English version must have been deliberate. [[VideoGame/{{Persona 4}} Rise]] and [[VideoGame/{{Persona 3}} Yukari]] both represent the [[TarotMotifs Lovers Arcana]], which classically represents two paths in life and choosing the one to follow. Guess what Vincent has to deal with?

* You might wonder why Catherine managed to get your phone number and sends texts even if you don't respond. It makes perfect sense when you remember that (and this is barely a spoiler) [[spoiler: he's a succubus whose texts disappear the moment you win your freedom]]. She probably was able to just [[spoiler:send everything directly to Vincent and never his phone]].

* In stage 3 of {{Catherine}}, Vincent is being chased by an upside-down body with a tongue protruding from the...er...behind. Each monster he faces is stated to have come from his own mind. Well, the next morning, [[YourCheatingHeart Catherine]] calls him a "perv" but refuses to expand on what they did...''[[BrainBleach Eww]]''. [[spoiler:She was probably lying to further tempt Vincent, but the implication is still there.]]

[[spoiler:OR girlfriend, considering she talks to the PLAYER, not Vincent.]]

So [[GodIsEvil YHVH]] [[GodNeedsPrayersBadly needs prayers badly]], but there's a minority who don't believe in him, and they are disrupting society to the point of RageAgainstTheHeavens. What does he do with the minority? [[spoiler:Send them through this nightly endeavor by allowing angels to select a person who will obtain "True Freedom".]] This is implied by [[spoiler:Astartoth and Thomas Mutton, both of whom are angels or work under them]].

* In both of the Bad endings, Trisha says that it could be considered a "good ending" for Vincent, as the girl he was pursuing may not have been what he really wanted from life. In the credit pictures of the "Good" endings, Vincent looks kind of unhappy, since to get those endings, he must be favoring Law or Chaos enough to win the girl back, but still have some doubts. So, in that sense, maybe the "Good" endings are actually worse than the "Bad" endings in some ways, since Vincent is in a relationship that he isn't completely sure he wants. He only looks fully happy in the "True" endings, where he is completely committed to Law or Chaos.

** Later in the game, by meeting the right conditions, Midnight Venus reveals herself as [[spoiler:Ishtar]] and [[BreakingTheFourthWall congratulates the player character]] by [[spoiler:making you her co-deity of love]] with everything that goes with it. The problem? [[spoiler:Ishtar's]] lovers, even the non-mortal ones, had a tendency to [[DeathBySex end up dead]], as pointed out waaay back in Literature/TheEpicOfGilgamesh. With that in mind, though, maybe it's better that you ''don't'' [[WomanScorned turn her down]].

* At the end of the super challenge thingummy, [[spoiler:Ishtar]] decides to go after ''you'', the player. '''This is not a good thing.''' Remember the EpicOfGilgamesh? Sure, she's a pretty girl, but in the end she always gets tired of her lovers and does away with them. [[spoiler:Mutton]] should just thank his lucky stars that he's easier to leave than kill...