History DethroningMoment / Film

23rd Dec '17 9:13:12 AM SithPanda16
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* ''DethroningMoment/StarWars''



* Tropers/{{cricri3007}}: ''Film/TheForceAwakens'' was a very nice movie, but the crowning moment of [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot wasted potential]] is the battle of Takonda where Finn, an ex-Stormtrooper, have to fight the First Order. Does he hesitate killing them, knowing that he could having been talking to them not a week ago? Knowing that they are brainwashed from a young age into believing the First Order's right? Does he have anything resembling fragment of his brainwashing coming back up to haunt him ? No! He kills them without any ounce of remorse or hesitation.
** Miracle @ St. Olaf: What makes it so bad is that they went to the trouble of establishing Stormtroopers as being kidnapped and brainwashed from childhood, and thus also tragic victims of the First Order's machinations. From there, though, the film proceeds to ignore that setup for everyone except Finn, along with all the interesting possibilities for conflict that it introduces, and simply depicts them all as bog-standard mooks for our heroes to kill by the cartload. It's not a bad idea to try introducing some shades of grey into a universe that otherwise uses BlackAndWhiteMorality, but for the love of God, don't half-ass it; giving Stormtroopers a sympathetic background as forced conscripts and leaving it at that just makes watching them get slaughtered a lot more uncomfortable than it used to be, back when they were just implied to be an all-volunteer evil army.
** Tropers/{{Peridonyx}}: For me, it's the sheer HappyEndingOverride over ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi''. Sure, ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'' also invoked RealityEnsues regarding the Battle of Endor, the New Republic, the New Jedi Order, etc., but at least it was all done in a way that didn't make you feel like you'd just watched a glorified ShootTheShaggyDog story. The same, however, can't be said for the state of affairs in this film: The heroes are still at a major disadvantage (arguably even a worse one than before), the villains are still so overpowering (complete with yet another FallenHero acting as TheDragon, not to mention a UpToEleven version of the Death Star), and the New Jedi Order was taken down even far easier than the one in the Prequels (thus technically making Luke a FailureHero despite all his CharacterDevelopment in the Originals -- and off-screen on top of it). So what's the point of getting invested in the heroes if pretty much all their accomplishments are just going to be {{Retcon}}ned away between movies regardless?
** Tropers/{{Allronix}}: Much as I mentioned above, the cherry on top of the mess? Luke Skywalker pulling the same stunt as Kevin Flynn above. He runs off to a scenic location to pout...excuse me, "meditate" while leaving his friends, family, and allies to clean up the mess while his crazed nephew actively trashes everything he and his loved ones worked for. At least when it was Jacen pulling this crap in the old EU, Luke was the first to go after him. I do hope Leia tears him a new one.



* Bobg: I don't care about Victor Salva's past. He did his time and has every right to go back to making films, and I hate those who try to bring up a person's past and use it as an excuse to boycott their work when there is no connection between the two. I hate them even more when they have the gall to insult people for paying for and supporting those works. No I don't hate ''Film/JeepersCreepers 3'' for the fact that it was made by Victor Salva. I hate it for the scene where the protagonists find out what the Creeper is and the film says "Fuck you" to the audience by not telling us. We waited 14 years for the film, with it being promised for all of those years that when it came out, it would reveal the Creeper's origin. This continued when the trailer was finally released. Than the film comes out and they break their promise and tease the audience. The way they promised to reveal what it is but only let the characters learn while hiding it from the audience, and than doing a sequel tease at the end just screams "We lied. Wait several more years and you MAY find out." Well fuck you. You deliberately tease us with that scene and refuse to tell us after you promised you would. Not only does this scene break a promise, but it also makes the entire movie pointless. Since the film takes place between 1 and 2, we know he's gonna be alive at the end, so the only point to this film would be to reveal his origin, which does not happen.
* Tropers/{{Peridonyx}}: ''Film/TheLastJedi''. My chosen moment is [[spoiler:Snoke's DiscOneFinalBoss death]]; after all that hype and mystique, those implications of [[spoiler:him]] being an interesting {{Foil}} to [[spoiler:Palpatine]], etc., [[spoiler:he]] turns out to be a complete waste just for the sake of a ShockingSwerve. Say what you will about the Prequels; at least they didn't make me feel this level of DarknessInducedAudienceApathy and/or EightDeadlyWords.
** Troper/DrZulu2010: For me it has to be what the fight between [[spoiler: Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker]]. Did I say fight? I meant [[spoiler: HumiliationConga where Ren flails his lightsaber to Luke while Luke gives him a ReasonYouSuckSpeech while being in ''astral projection''.]] This was after [[spoiler: he killed Snoke cementing himself as the BigBad, which I enjoyed since that means that the climax of Episode 9 won't be a rehash of ''Return of the Jedi'' and gave Kylo some needed credibility as a villain,]] so you'd expect they would make [[spoiler: him]] into a credible villain but nope. At least [[spoiler: his grandfather Anakin]] became a dangerous badass when he became [[spoiler: Darth Vader]] near the end of ''Film/RevengeOfTheSith'' and he was my most hated character in all of ''Star Wars'' (even more than Jar Jar). [[spoiler: Kylo]] already has a bad time to become credible [[spoiler: after being on the recieving side of a CurbStompBattle by Rey, who never wielded a lightsaber by this point,]] so how did Creator/JJAbrams expect that this loser can be seen as a credible threat with a sad track record? Pathetic villains work if they are secondary villains or henchmen or if the movie is comical or lighthearted in nature, but not in a god damned serious drama because that would make the heroes incompetent by proxy if they can't handle a bunch of losers.
** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1) Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2) Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[{{Narm}} the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Creator/CarrieFisher.
*** Troper/{{Retloclive}}: [[spoiler:Admiral Ackbar getting [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter unceremoniously killed off]]]] in this exact scene was a horrible send off for a character that has become a huge ''Star Wars'' cultural icon. If he was going [[spoiler:to die in this movie, they could have at the very least given him a much better sendoff]]. Like, I didn't care one bit for the Vice Admiral Holdo character. How much cooler would ''that'' scene have been had it been [[spoiler:Ackbar that got to pull the HeroicSacrifice]] rather than a brand new character that was all of a sudden introduced to the viewers?
** Troper/Edgar81539: For me, it's the complete character assassination of Luke. Let's go through most of the stuff he went through in the Original Trilogy: he had his parents and mentor killed, most of his friends died in battle with the Empire, he discovered that the guy that killed his mentor and the second hand of the Emperor (with all the atrocities it entailed) was his father, faced certain death multiple times and was the pet project of Palpatine. And yet, even under his influence and having a known genocidist at his mercy, Luke didn't budge. He knew his father goodness was still alive in the inside and was almost tortured to death for that faith. Now, let's compared that with his actions here. [[spoiler: Leia and Han felt that Ben was being pulled by the Dark Side, and fearing another Darth Vader, sent him to train with his uncle. Luke senses that Ben is being influenced by Snoke. Someone would expect that Luke, knowing first hand how terrible being influenced by such powerful forces is, along with his blood ties to the boy, helps him. Instead, he chooses to kill him on his sleep. He backs down on the last moment, but not before Ben realizes what he was trying to do and, scared, starts his life as Kylo Ren.]] Luke is reduced to nothing more than a plot device and regresses on his development so much you wouldn't even realize it's the same character. Luke deserved nothing but respect yet was treated like trash throughout the entire movie, culminating with his [[spoiler: lame duel with Kylo Ren and becoming one with the Force in the end.]] We get it, a story needs to be told about the new generation. But not at the expense of one of the most iconics characters in cinema history.

to:

* Bobg: I don't care about Victor Salva's past. He did his time and has every right to go back to making films, and I hate those who try to bring up a person's past and use it as an excuse to boycott their work when there is no connection between the two. I hate them even more when they have the gall to insult people for paying for and supporting those works. No I don't hate ''Film/JeepersCreepers 3'' for the fact that it was made by Victor Salva. I hate it for the scene where the protagonists find out what the Creeper is and the film says "Fuck you" to the audience by not telling us. We waited 14 years for the film, with it being promised for all of those years that when it came out, it would reveal the Creeper's origin. This continued when the trailer was finally released. Than the film comes out and they break their promise and tease the audience. The way they promised to reveal what it is but only let the characters learn while hiding it from the audience, and than doing a sequel tease at the end just screams "We lied. Wait several more years and you MAY find out." Well fuck you. You deliberately tease us with that scene and refuse to tell us after you promised you would. Not only does this scene break a promise, but it also makes the entire movie pointless. Since the film takes place between 1 and 2, we know he's gonna be alive at the end, so the only point to this film would be to reveal his origin, which does not happen.
* Tropers/{{Peridonyx}}: ''Film/TheLastJedi''. My chosen moment is [[spoiler:Snoke's DiscOneFinalBoss death]]; after all that hype and mystique, those implications of [[spoiler:him]] being an interesting {{Foil}} to [[spoiler:Palpatine]], etc., [[spoiler:he]] turns out to be a complete waste just for the sake of a ShockingSwerve. Say what you will about the Prequels; at least they didn't make me feel this level of DarknessInducedAudienceApathy and/or EightDeadlyWords.
** Troper/DrZulu2010: For me it has to be what the fight between [[spoiler: Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker]]. Did I say fight? I meant [[spoiler: HumiliationConga where Ren flails his lightsaber to Luke while Luke gives him a ReasonYouSuckSpeech while being in ''astral projection''.]] This was after [[spoiler: he killed Snoke cementing himself as the BigBad, which I enjoyed since that means that the climax of Episode 9 won't be a rehash of ''Return of the Jedi'' and gave Kylo some needed credibility as a villain,]] so you'd expect they would make [[spoiler: him]] into a credible villain but nope. At least [[spoiler: his grandfather Anakin]] became a dangerous badass when he became [[spoiler: Darth Vader]] near the end of ''Film/RevengeOfTheSith'' and he was my most hated character in all of ''Star Wars'' (even more than Jar Jar). [[spoiler: Kylo]] already has a bad time to become credible [[spoiler: after being on the recieving side of a CurbStompBattle by Rey, who never wielded a lightsaber by this point,]] so how did Creator/JJAbrams expect that this loser can be seen as a credible threat with a sad track record? Pathetic villains work if they are secondary villains or henchmen or if the movie is comical or lighthearted in nature, but not in a god damned serious drama because that would make the heroes incompetent by proxy if they can't handle a bunch of losers.
** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1) Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2) Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[{{Narm}} the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Creator/CarrieFisher.
*** Troper/{{Retloclive}}: [[spoiler:Admiral Ackbar getting [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter unceremoniously killed off]]]] in this exact scene was a horrible send off for a character that has become a huge ''Star Wars'' cultural icon. If he was going [[spoiler:to die in this movie, they could have at the very least given him a much better sendoff]]. Like, I didn't care one bit for the Vice Admiral Holdo character. How much cooler would ''that'' scene have been had it been [[spoiler:Ackbar that got to pull the HeroicSacrifice]] rather than a brand new character that was all of a sudden introduced to the viewers?
** Troper/Edgar81539: For me, it's the complete character assassination of Luke. Let's go through most of the stuff he went through in the Original Trilogy: he had his parents and mentor killed, most of his friends died in battle with the Empire, he discovered that the guy that killed his mentor and the second hand of the Emperor (with all the atrocities it entailed) was his father, faced certain death multiple times and was the pet project of Palpatine. And yet, even under his influence and having a known genocidist at his mercy, Luke didn't budge. He knew his father goodness was still alive in the inside and was almost tortured to death for that faith. Now, let's compared that with his actions here. [[spoiler: Leia and Han felt that Ben was being pulled by the Dark Side, and fearing another Darth Vader, sent him to train with his uncle. Luke senses that Ben is being influenced by Snoke. Someone would expect that Luke, knowing first hand how terrible being influenced by such powerful forces is, along with his blood ties to the boy, helps him. Instead, he chooses to kill him on his sleep. He backs down on the last moment, but not before Ben realizes what he was trying to do and, scared, starts his life as Kylo Ren.]] Luke is reduced to nothing more than a plot device and regresses on his development so much you wouldn't even realize it's the same character. Luke deserved nothing but respect yet was treated like trash throughout the entire movie, culminating with his [[spoiler: lame duel with Kylo Ren and becoming one with the Force in the end.]] We get it, a story needs to be told about the new generation. But not at the expense of one of the most iconics characters in cinema history.
happen.
21st Dec '17 2:33:57 AM ClintEastwood
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** Troper/DrZulu2010: For me it has to be what the fight between [[spoiler: Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker]]. Did I say fight? I meant [[spoiler: HumilliationConga where Ren flails his lightsaber to Luke while Luke gives him a ReasonYouSuckSpeech while being in ''astral projection''.]] This was after [[spoiler: he killed Snoke cementing himself as the BigBad, which I enjoyed since that means that the climax of Episode 9 won't be a rehash of Return of the Jedi and gave Kylo some needed credibility as a villain,]] so you'd expect they would make [[spoiler: him]] into a credible villain but nope. At least [[spoiler: his grandfather Anakin]] became a dangerous badass when he became [[spoiler: Darth Vader]] near the end of Film/RevengeOfTheSith and he was my most hated character in all of Star Wars (even more than Jar Jar). [[spoiler: Kylo]] already has a bad time to become credible [[spoiler: after being on the recieving side of a CurbStompBattle by Rey, who never wielded a lightsaber by this point,]] so how did JJ Abrams expected that this loser can be seen as a credible threat with a sad track record. Pathetic villains work if they are secondary villains or henchmen or if the movie is comical or lighthearted in nature, but not in a god damned serious drama because that would make the heroes incompetent by proxy if they can't handle a bunch of losers.
** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[{{Narm}} the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.

to:

** Troper/DrZulu2010: For me it has to be what the fight between [[spoiler: Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker]]. Did I say fight? I meant [[spoiler: HumilliationConga HumiliationConga where Ren flails his lightsaber to Luke while Luke gives him a ReasonYouSuckSpeech while being in ''astral projection''.]] This was after [[spoiler: he killed Snoke cementing himself as the BigBad, which I enjoyed since that means that the climax of Episode 9 won't be a rehash of Return ''Return of the Jedi Jedi'' and gave Kylo some needed credibility as a villain,]] so you'd expect they would make [[spoiler: him]] into a credible villain but nope. At least [[spoiler: his grandfather Anakin]] became a dangerous badass when he became [[spoiler: Darth Vader]] near the end of Film/RevengeOfTheSith ''Film/RevengeOfTheSith'' and he was my most hated character in all of Star Wars ''Star Wars'' (even more than Jar Jar). [[spoiler: Kylo]] already has a bad time to become credible [[spoiler: after being on the recieving side of a CurbStompBattle by Rey, who never wielded a lightsaber by this point,]] so how did JJ Abrams expected Creator/JJAbrams expect that this loser can be seen as a credible threat with a sad track record. record? Pathetic villains work if they are secondary villains or henchmen or if the movie is comical or lighthearted in nature, but not in a god damned serious drama because that would make the heroes incompetent by proxy if they can't handle a bunch of losers.
** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere 1) Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone 2) Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[{{Narm}} the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.Creator/CarrieFisher.



** Troper/Edgar81539: For me, it's the complete character assassination of Luke. Let's go through most of the stuff he went through in the Original Trilogy: he had his parents and mentor killed, most of his friends died in battle with the Empire, he discovered that the guy that killed his mentor and the second hand of the Emperor (with all the atrocities it entailed) was his father, faced certain death multiple times and was the pet project of Palpatine. And yet, even under his influence and having a known genocidist at his mercy, Luke didn't budge. He knew his father goodness was still alive in the inside and was almost tortured to death for that faith. Now, let's compared that with his actions here. [[spoiler: Leia and Han felt that Ben was being pulled by the Dark Side, and fearing another Darth Vader, sent him to train with his uncle. Luke senses that Ben is being influenced by Snoke. Someone would expect that Luke, knowing first hand how terrible being influenced by such powerful forces is, along with his blood ties to the boy, helps him. Instead, he choses to kill him on his sleep. He backs down on the last moment, but not before Ben realizes what he was trying to do and, scared, starts his life as Kylo Ren.]] Luke is reduced to nothing more than a plot device and regresses on his development so much you wouldn't even realize it's the same character. Luke deserved nothing but respect yet was treated like trash throughout the entire movie, culminating with his [[spoiler: lame duel with Kylo Ren and becoming one with the Force in the end.]] We get it, a story needs to be told about the new generation. But not at the expense of one of the most iconics characters in cinema history.

to:

** Troper/Edgar81539: For me, it's the complete character assassination of Luke. Let's go through most of the stuff he went through in the Original Trilogy: he had his parents and mentor killed, most of his friends died in battle with the Empire, he discovered that the guy that killed his mentor and the second hand of the Emperor (with all the atrocities it entailed) was his father, faced certain death multiple times and was the pet project of Palpatine. And yet, even under his influence and having a known genocidist at his mercy, Luke didn't budge. He knew his father goodness was still alive in the inside and was almost tortured to death for that faith. Now, let's compared that with his actions here. [[spoiler: Leia and Han felt that Ben was being pulled by the Dark Side, and fearing another Darth Vader, sent him to train with his uncle. Luke senses that Ben is being influenced by Snoke. Someone would expect that Luke, knowing first hand how terrible being influenced by such powerful forces is, along with his blood ties to the boy, helps him. Instead, he choses chooses to kill him on his sleep. He backs down on the last moment, but not before Ben realizes what he was trying to do and, scared, starts his life as Kylo Ren.]] Luke is reduced to nothing more than a plot device and regresses on his development so much you wouldn't even realize it's the same character. Luke deserved nothing but respect yet was treated like trash throughout the entire movie, culminating with his [[spoiler: lame duel with Kylo Ren and becoming one with the Force in the end.]] We get it, a story needs to be told about the new generation. But not at the expense of one of the most iconics characters in cinema history.
20th Dec '17 7:28:18 AM Retloclive
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*** Troper/{{Retloclive}}: [[spoiler:Admiral Ackbar's getting [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter unceremoniously killed off]]]] in this exact scene was a horrible send off for a character that has become a huge ''Star Wars'' cultural icon. If he was going [[spoiler:to die in this movie, they could have at the very least given him a much better sendoff]]. Like, I didn't care one bit for the Vice Admiral Holdo character. How much cooler would ''that'' scene have been had it been [[spoiler:Ackbar that got to pull the HeroicSacrifice]] rather than a brand new character that was all of a sudden introduced to the viewers?

to:

*** Troper/{{Retloclive}}: [[spoiler:Admiral Ackbar's Ackbar getting [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter unceremoniously killed off]]]] in this exact scene was a horrible send off for a character that has become a huge ''Star Wars'' cultural icon. If he was going [[spoiler:to die in this movie, they could have at the very least given him a much better sendoff]]. Like, I didn't care one bit for the Vice Admiral Holdo character. How much cooler would ''that'' scene have been had it been [[spoiler:Ackbar that got to pull the HeroicSacrifice]] rather than a brand new character that was all of a sudden introduced to the viewers?
20th Dec '17 7:27:36 AM Retloclive
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Added DiffLines:

*** Troper/{{Retloclive}}: [[spoiler:Admiral Ackbar's getting [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter unceremoniously killed off]]]] in this exact scene was a horrible send off for a character that has become a huge ''Star Wars'' cultural icon. If he was going [[spoiler:to die in this movie, they could have at the very least given him a much better sendoff]]. Like, I didn't care one bit for the Vice Admiral Holdo character. How much cooler would ''that'' scene have been had it been [[spoiler:Ackbar that got to pull the HeroicSacrifice]] rather than a brand new character that was all of a sudden introduced to the viewers?
20th Dec '17 7:15:13 AM Retloclive
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* Tropers/{{Peridonyx}}: ''Film/TheLastJedi'' has multiple contenders [[note]]Rey's parents turning out to be [[spoiler:complete nobodies (meaning she can't be the silver lining in the now-completely-screwed Skywalker bloodline after all)]], Luke's [[spoiler:HeroicSacrifice (that's frankly TooSoon after ''The Force Awakens'' already killed Han off, thus making the Sequels feel like a ''Game of Thrones''-style KillEmAll against longtime fans' nostalgia)]], etc.[[/note]], actually. But my chosen moment is [[spoiler:Snoke's DiscOneFinalBoss death]]; after all that hype and mystique, those implications of [[spoiler:him]] being an interesting {{Foil}} to [[spoiler:Palpatine]], etc., [[spoiler:he]] turns out to be a complete waste just for the sake of a ShockingSwerve. Say what you will about the Prequels; at least they didn't make me feel this level of DarknessInducedAudienceApathy and/or EightDeadlyWords.

to:

* Tropers/{{Peridonyx}}: ''Film/TheLastJedi'' has multiple contenders [[note]]Rey's parents turning out to be [[spoiler:complete nobodies (meaning she can't be the silver lining in the now-completely-screwed Skywalker bloodline after all)]], Luke's [[spoiler:HeroicSacrifice (that's frankly TooSoon after ''The Force Awakens'' already killed Han off, thus making the Sequels feel like a ''Game of Thrones''-style KillEmAll against longtime fans' nostalgia)]], etc.[[/note]], actually. But my ''Film/TheLastJedi''. My chosen moment is [[spoiler:Snoke's DiscOneFinalBoss death]]; after all that hype and mystique, those implications of [[spoiler:him]] being an interesting {{Foil}} to [[spoiler:Palpatine]], etc., [[spoiler:he]] turns out to be a complete waste just for the sake of a ShockingSwerve. Say what you will about the Prequels; at least they didn't make me feel this level of DarknessInducedAudienceApathy and/or EightDeadlyWords.
18th Dec '17 12:38:47 PM DrZulu2010
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** Troper/DrZulu2010: For me it has to be what the fight between [[spoiler: Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker]]. Did I say fight? I meant [[spoiler: HumilliationConga where Ren flails his lightsaber to Luke while Luke gives him a ReasonYouSuckSpeech while being in ''astral projection''.]] This was after [[spoiler: he killed Snoke cementing himself as the BigBad]] so you'd expect they would make [[spoiler: him]] into a credible villain but nope. At least [[spoiler: his grandfather Anakin]] became a dangerous badass when he became [[spoiler: Darth Vader]] near the end of Film/RevengeOfTheSith and he was my most hated character in all of Star Wars (even more than Jar Jar). [[spoiler: Kylo]] already has a bad time to become credible [[spoiler: after being on the recieving side of a CurbStompBattle by Rey, who never wielded a lightsaber by this point,]] so how did JJ Abrams expected that this loser can be seen as a credible threat with a sad track record. Pathetic villains work if they are secondary villains or henchmen or if the movie is comical or lighthearted in nature, but not in a god damned serious drama because that would make the heroes incompetent by proxy if they can't handle a bunch of losers.

to:

** Troper/DrZulu2010: For me it has to be what the fight between [[spoiler: Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker]]. Did I say fight? I meant [[spoiler: HumilliationConga where Ren flails his lightsaber to Luke while Luke gives him a ReasonYouSuckSpeech while being in ''astral projection''.]] This was after [[spoiler: he killed Snoke cementing himself as the BigBad]] BigBad, which I enjoyed since that means that the climax of Episode 9 won't be a rehash of Return of the Jedi and gave Kylo some needed credibility as a villain,]] so you'd expect they would make [[spoiler: him]] into a credible villain but nope. At least [[spoiler: his grandfather Anakin]] became a dangerous badass when he became [[spoiler: Darth Vader]] near the end of Film/RevengeOfTheSith and he was my most hated character in all of Star Wars (even more than Jar Jar). [[spoiler: Kylo]] already has a bad time to become credible [[spoiler: after being on the recieving side of a CurbStompBattle by Rey, who never wielded a lightsaber by this point,]] so how did JJ Abrams expected that this loser can be seen as a credible threat with a sad track record. Pathetic villains work if they are secondary villains or henchmen or if the movie is comical or lighthearted in nature, but not in a god damned serious drama because that would make the heroes incompetent by proxy if they can't handle a bunch of losers.
17th Dec '17 7:19:20 PM Edgar81539
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** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[{{Narm}} the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.

to:

** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[{{Narm}} the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.Fisher.
** Troper/Edgar81539: For me, it's the complete character assassination of Luke. Let's go through most of the stuff he went through in the Original Trilogy: he had his parents and mentor killed, most of his friends died in battle with the Empire, he discovered that the guy that killed his mentor and the second hand of the Emperor (with all the atrocities it entailed) was his father, faced certain death multiple times and was the pet project of Palpatine. And yet, even under his influence and having a known genocidist at his mercy, Luke didn't budge. He knew his father goodness was still alive in the inside and was almost tortured to death for that faith. Now, let's compared that with his actions here. [[spoiler: Leia and Han felt that Ben was being pulled by the Dark Side, and fearing another Darth Vader, sent him to train with his uncle. Luke senses that Ben is being influenced by Snoke. Someone would expect that Luke, knowing first hand how terrible being influenced by such powerful forces is, along with his blood ties to the boy, helps him. Instead, he choses to kill him on his sleep. He backs down on the last moment, but not before Ben realizes what he was trying to do and, scared, starts his life as Kylo Ren.]] Luke is reduced to nothing more than a plot device and regresses on his development so much you wouldn't even realize it's the same character. Luke deserved nothing but respect yet was treated like trash throughout the entire movie, culminating with his [[spoiler: lame duel with Kylo Ren and becoming one with the Force in the end.]] We get it, a story needs to be told about the new generation. But not at the expense of one of the most iconics characters in cinema history.
17th Dec '17 2:27:58 AM cricri3007
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** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[narm the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.

to:

** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[narm [[{{Narm}} the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.
17th Dec '17 2:27:29 AM cricri3007
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and}} using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[narm the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.

to:

** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and}} and]] using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[narm the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.
17th Dec '17 2:26:47 AM cricri3007
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----

to:

----** Troper/cricri3007: Leia [[spoiler:surviving being in a room that got shot to piece, being in space, and}} using the Force [[spoiler:to fly to the ship so she can be rescued]] when 1)Nowhere is it stated that she got training in using it, 2)Everyone else [[spoiler:in the room]] died, 3) [[narm the way it's filmed is incredibly hard to take seriously]]. Having her died thusly would have also been a great sendoff to Carrie Fisher.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=DethroningMoment.Film