This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Describe Magical Native American Discussion here.
Void: How was Smallpox an atrocity? Smallpox was an enormously deadly and contagious disease to everyone and the natives had no resistance to it. That Smallpox was endemic to Eurasia and Africa wasn't something that anyone controlled or planned. Now I am aware of the famous blanket incident but if Wikipedia tells the truth the natives were being decimated by smallpox shortly after the first contact with the Europeans and long before the French/Indian wars.
Gemmifer: Is it just me ot is this article unfunny and anvilicious as well as a Take That! to white Americans?
Lawyerdude: No, not really a Take That!. A lot of what the colonists and their descendents did was really, really bad. But white people most certainly did not have a monopoly on doing terrible things. The problem with a lot of the Magical Minority character types is that it plays up the "noble" aspect of their history, while downplaying the "savage" part. By that I mean Native Americans and Africans would also wage war on one another and sell people into slavery.
On another note, the thing that always strikes me about the Magical Native/African thing is the question that, if these people had such awesome and cool powers, how is it that they got virtually wiped out by the Europeans? The ability to see the future, speak with animals, blend into the land, cure disease and whatnot should have been enough to send the conquerors running away screaming. I've never actually seen that question addressed.
Justin Cognito: All right, I edited the main page to reflect the fact that, of course, some Native American tribes were full of bastards, too, but I wanted to take the page away from what seemed like a duel between "They were noble and oppressed!" (I'll admit, as trope launcher, I was partially responsible for this) and "No, they were really savages!"
Cassy: The main entry and discussion are so full with inaccuracies and offensive stereotyping I don't even know where to start... You guys are obviously really trying and more knowledgeable than many, but you should really do the research and pay attention to your phrasing... I'll leave it at that and come back on another day.
- Speaking of which, Native Americans and Canadians haven't been "virtually wiped out". Very few Nations have actually been wiped out (the Beothuks of Newfoundland are a famous example... but some people actually have Beothuk ancestry!), the fact that Native peoples are still alive today testifies to their amazing resilience and strength, and they have one of the highest population growth rates of North America if not THE highest (in fact, it's been the highest in Canada for at least a decade). Both in the US and Canada, the Native Renaissance has been going on since the late 1960s, with a focus on civil rights, sovereignty, and cultural revitalization among others. The "Vanishing Indian" stereotype is one of the most damaging propagandistic stereotypes about Native populations.
- Also, torture and slavery did exist but were pretty marginal phenomena; slavery mainly existed on the West Coast, and torture was mainly practiced by the more 'warlike' ethnic groups such as the Haudenosaunee / Six Nations Confederacy (mistakenly called 'Iroquois'). As for war, it did exist but Native peoples had a wholly different concept of war, its goal was submission and it usually stopped after the first bloodshed. Genocide was unheard of and when some Nations associated with e.g. the British and saw them slaughter the Nation's enemies, they were horrified. War is never nice, but you need to put things into perspective. Actions such as paedophilia and violence against women and children also existed, but they were considered as some of the highest crimes and were severely punished, sometimes by banishment or death. Native cultures were further consensus-based and their view of justice was based on harmony between all parts of the local ecosystem, which means that people were free to disagree with each other; it's not impossible that there were internecine wars among some Nations before colonization, but I've never heard of it and it must've been very rare. Also, Native North Americans had extremnely complex political systems; it's a little known fact that the American Constitution is largely based on the principles of the Six Nations Confederacy (in fact, even the eagle holding arrows in its claws is originally an 'Iroquois' symbol). Since these were and still are holistic belief systems, the spiritual, philosophical, medical, political, personal, economic, ecological, and social dimensions of these societies are all interrelated and in fact not categorized as in the western world. Hope this clarifies things a little bit, I'll have to think of a way of integrating some of this into the main entry.
Justin Cognito: Thanks, Cassy. I admit I'm just a white guy who's trying really hard to understand a culture that I have never personally interacted with but whose stereotyping by many other sources I am absolutely sick of.
Red Shoe: I have a dim memory of a Magical Native American appearing in a made-for-tv movie which was a biography of Harry Houdini. Anyone know this one?
Ozymandias: Nevermind, I was stupid and didn't notice that it says African bushmen count. He did seem to be the only African example I saw, so. Sorry.
About the entry for War of the Worlds episode:
- I don't think it's about the "dishonest traders" stereotype, since he gave the crystal to Blackwood as a gift (who was so surprised, he only muttered "I don't know what to say" - nobody taught him to say "Thank you"?) I wondered why Blackwood did accept the gift without any return gift, and why the shaman made the gift in the first place after Blackwood was only admiring it. However, since this episode started with dealers stealing artifacts (and bodies) illegaly from the reservation, and since the shaman didn't know Blackwood close enough to know he's a good guy, he might have thought giving a fake crystal as a present was a better way to get rid off the white guy than telling him off and having the whole staff stolen later. So the shaman was simply cautious.
Burai: Removed ...
- * Raven, the Aleutian force of fucking nature from Snow Crash, who can kayak across the Pacific and make laboratory-sharp glass knives as per some kind of ancient method. He's explicitly referred to as the baddest motherfucker in the world.
"Heyoka, a Lakota 'two-spirit'"
fhqwhgads: A "Two-spirit"? Weren't they considered hermaphrodites, at least socially?
Wilted: Thinking of adding the Quileutes from Twilight, but not sure if they qualify. Hesitant to add them here too hastily, but I think the fact that their ancestors were spirit warriors is more than enough reason for inclusion.
Vulpy: Pulled Natter from the Deadlands example.
- Well, yes. The "magic" involved here is asking nature spirits for assistance, spirits who will not help those who don't honestly believe in them. Magicality is less about ethnicity and more about culture.
- This is less Magical Native American than Religion is Magic, as believers in Old World religions also get favors from their (more aloof) deities or supernatural entities, and evil cultists of all stripes get power from the Reckoners. It is definitely Closer to Earth, though, in that Native Americans are portrayed as being religious enough that those without guardian spirits are easily identifiable, and unable to participate in Native American society, while irreligious members of Old World cultures just don't have the benefit of the Protection miracle.
- This troper is more concerned with the fact that, with the exception of the Aztecs and the Aztec-influenced Catholic variant Anahuac, the only difference between all Native American religions is that one or two spirit guardians aren't available in some parts of the country, never mind that they're supernatural beings.
- Deadlands' sister/sequel game, Hell On Earth, plays this straight: the Old World religions have ceased offering any magical benefits, but shamans and spirit guardians are still around and going strong. No reason is given for this.
That having been done, allow me to rebut here, where it is appropriate to do so. The first point presented is valid enough, and has been rolled into the main example. The second point is addressed on the Religion is Magic page, where Magical Native American is addressed as a subtrope of the former. Shamanism in Deadlands is both. (Not sure how to add the Closer to Earth point into the example on the page, though. Probably best just to put it on Closer to Earth and be done with it.) The third point is valid, but Word of God also says that a full list of all the minute differences in different tribal religious practices and beliefs would make for encyclopedic volumes. Finally, it is possible to create and play Blessed in Hell on Earth (with the rules even going so far as to include many references to the exorcism miracle); the implication isn't that the Old World deities have forsaken the world, but that the world has forsaken them, forgetting the power of faith in their time of crisis.
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