This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Kizor: Pulled...
- Truth In Television - Most, if not all, supernatural phenomenon aren't compatible with accepted scientific criteria such as being repeatable and disprovable. Inversely, take the example of a phenomenon which is supernaturally capable of engendering a logical paradox, eg God being omnipotently capable of creating a rock heavier than He can lift. From the point of view of logic, this is a contradiction and literally anything _can_ follow. Elves, green cheese moons, psychic space wombats, _anything_. Having said that, I would argue that this trope as well as others mentioned above and similar examples such as No Such Thing As Space Jesus are less media phenomenon than they are philosophical points of view of the authors and, as such, are out of place on this site.
...because that was more editorializing and Conversation On The Main Page rather than the treatment of the subject in media. As it says, it's on a wholly different basis than the rest of the article to the point of calling for its destruction. Nothing personal.
Sunder the Gold: Pulled again. Either it didn't take the first time for some reason, or someone put it back up after you pulled it.
Valantis: Pulled
- Let's be fair here; ghosts are vastly different from aliens in regard to this trope. If something is shown to exist after death, God existing is an incredibly reasonable conclusion.
Except from a skeptical point of view a ghost could be no more evidence for an afterlife as a corpse is, and even accepting the existence of an afterlife does not mean there must be a deity who controls it (for example, buddhism). "If ghost, then afterlife, then God"
joeyjoe: still extraterrestrial life is supported not conflicted with modern scientific knowledge. unlike the supernatural.
Jared: I'm not sure how the intelligent design/evolution thing has rabidness on both ends. Frankly, the Evolution side is RIGHT. Yes, Dawkins and co can be kind of tactless, and it has to be admitted that Intelligent Design is possible. It's also possible that all of reality is a Matrix-style sim, that dogs rule the world so secretly that no one could ever discover them, ect, ect. Intelligent design adds NOTHING to human knowledge. It's a sop to make fuzzy thinkers more comfortable, and a tool to wedge christian fundamentalism into public schools. Its a nice way to reconcile faith with reality to make yourself feel better, but it's not a valid scientific theory.
Blork: Does anyone else think that the write up is somewhat biased towards the religious side? It's especially noticable with the paragraph starting "This is an insult to everyone involved..." which then goes on to list two separate reasons why the author thinks it offends religious people.
Later: Changed that paragraph to at least mention the skeptical point of view, but there still seems to be the general idea running through this that a "moderate" position requires the person to believe in gods. Also, I'm not sure about the NUMB3RS example, I haven't watched it for a while (having been Dan Browned by Charlie's ability to make incredibly specific deductions from very small samples) but from what I remember, if he set out to debunk, say, a psychic it would be because he didn't believe in... well... psychics.
Kilyle: I'm not entirely sure of the NUMB3RS example myself, and I'm the one who suggested it. But this whole trope came about because of an episode in which Charlie was helped on a case by a woman who believed in Numerology. And it became pretty clear while watching that the debate wasn't "Is numerology credible or not?" but "Are faith-based things in general credible or not?" - lumping them all together, with Larry being the one telling Charlie to open his mind a little. I got a little scared for the future of the show, really, because I doubt they could go in any direction with faith that would be satisfying. Although I'd love to be wrong... oh, and I vaguely recall that the ending of that ep had the Numerology lady say Charlie was already involved in a faith-based or non-rational belief: love.
ArcTan: Removed the Signs and I Am Legend examples, as they really are completely inappropriate. Hardened skeptics having their faith renewed by some inspiring miraculous event may be a trope in itself — a much larger trope, in fact — but has nothing to do with "If you can accept aliens you can accept Jesus". Mel Gibson's character certainly does not believe that God's existence is possible simply because aliens are possible — and Will Smith's character DEFINITELY doesn't believe God's existence is possible because zombies are possible. (Quite the opposite, in fact.)
False Prophet: Re:
I'm not inclined to think radical Christians are less likely to believe in "woo"—I think many fundamentalists may interpret these in their own world view, perhaps as Satanic practices, or evidence of demons (obviously they consider these practices "evil" then). Much like early Christians, some fundamentalists acknowledge that just as God can make his presence known in the world, so can Satan. Not painting all fundamentalists with the same brush, I just think they're no more or less likely than anyone else to be swayed—and those that are interpret these phenomena within the context of their beliefs. Jack Chick
is a good example—he really thinks Wicca and Harry Potter are tools of Satan.
Y'all Fail Logic Forever. Random supernatural hypothesis X doesn't imply random supernatural hypothesis Y in all cases, but in many cases it does. Because if hypothesis X is, say, God — God is, according to the official literature, incompatible with logic. All-powerful, inherently contradictory, and taken as an axiom (not requiring justification or cause). So if your logic system has God as an axiom, nothing is disprovable. If the God of Joshua is hanging around in your universe, then everything happens according to his whim and no further sense is required. And anything can be, no matter how much it's contradicted by other observations. Maybe Uri Geller can bend spoons, but only when the unbelievers aren't looking, because God likes to play tricks on us. Maybe the fossil record really is the world's most elaborate ruse. Nothing follows from anything. And anything at all follows from nothing.
pawsplay: I just took a cleaver to the main page to reduce the rantiness. I moved the G. K. Chesteron quote to the top where it belongs, without Troper On Board. I changed the text to reflect the reality that yes, there is a sliding scale of skepticism versus credulity, which IN ADDITION to someone's specific belief system, influences what they are willing to believe.
Noaqiyeum: According to two separate studies (conducted by the magazine Skeptical Enquirer in 1980, and by the Gallup Organization in association with the Baylor's Institute for Studies of Religion just a few days ago), self-proclaimed Christians are less likely to believe in paranormal or extraterrestrial activity than self-proclaimed atheists and agnostics. Until someone else brings up an antithetical study, I'm going to revert the "Truth in Television" notice.
Burai: Axed ...
- * The Marc Cohn song, "Walking in Memphis" has the character encounter the ghost of Elvis, which, for some reason, convinces him to become Christian.
Because it's just plain forced. The reference to Elvis and the reference to "Man, I am [a Christian] tonight" come in different verses, and the context of the latter (being moved by exposure to gospel music and Southern hospitality) is unambigous; it isn't "if ghosts then Jesus" but more "if beautiful music and friendly people than Jesus". This might also be a stretch of logic, but not the one addressed by this trope. ;-)
