History Main / IfJesusThenAliens

28th May '17 9:15:51 PM Fireblood
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* Methodological naturalism kind of flip-flops on this point. The world view focuses on that which is observable, and where cause and effect are connected, i.e. an evidence-based system. Because the supernatural and other associated things are inherently without evidence, methodological naturalism makes no judgment on them, leaving them out of scope. While the default position most seem to take is to not accept an idea without evidence, changes to our understanding of the natural world could lead to accepting a whole new range of things.
** In other words, once there is evidence for the supernatural, it ceases to ''be'' supernatural, and becomes "natural, if weird and yet unexplained."
*** This would not be the case necessarily. If one found hard, reproducible evidence that meets scientific standards of something that violated gravity (such as levitation) that could be deemed supernatural (above or beyond the natural laws) and if, except for this phenomena, gravity still was seen to hold, it would not disprove these laws, or require their alteration. It would raise a ''lot'' of questions, naturally, but any new discovery will do the same. Methodological naturalism is as I understand it more a guideline-scientists assume, for the sake of simplicity, that nothing supernatural will interfere with the results of experiments, otherwise science couldn't be done. If there were such irrefutable evidence for the supernatural, that could be studied just as natural phenomena.
** Humorously put in a Tim Minchin beat poem, "by definition, I begin, alternative medicine, I continue, has either not been proved to work or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."

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* Methodological naturalism kind of flip-flops on this point. The world view focuses on that which is observable, and where cause and effect are connected, i.e. an evidence-based system. Because the supernatural and other associated things are deemed inherently without evidence, methodological naturalism makes no judgment on them, leaving them out of scope. While the default position most seem to take is to not accept an idea without evidence, changes to our understanding of the natural world could lead to accepting a whole new range of things.
**
things. In other words, once there is evidence for the supernatural, it ceases to ''be'' supernatural, and becomes "natural, if weird and yet unexplained."
*** This would not be the case necessarily.
" Some however disagree with this concept. If one found hard, reproducible evidence that meets scientific standards of something that violated gravity (such as levitation) that could be deemed supernatural (above or beyond the natural laws) and if, except for this phenomena, gravity still was seen to hold, it would not disprove these laws, or require their alteration. It would raise a ''lot'' of questions, naturally, but any new discovery will do the same. Methodological naturalism is as I understand it more of a guideline-scientists assume, for the sake of simplicity, that nothing supernatural will interfere with the results of experiments, otherwise science couldn't be done. If there were such irrefutable evidence for the supernatural, that could be studied just as natural phenomena.
**
phenomena. Some religious organizations like the Catholic Church do investigate supernatural phenomena (miracles, demonic possession) scientifically, for instance.
*
Humorously put in a Tim Minchin beat poem, "by definition, I begin, alternative medicine, I continue, has either not been proved to work or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."



** Also, he seems to believe that Jesus is both a deity and an [[AncientAstronauts Ancient Astronaut]], and so are the TheReptilians, described as "clones of the Fallen Angels" devoid of any memory of their divine status. Thus, he may be on the polar opposite of the Raelien cult (see ''Raelien'' in this page): while Raeliens are atheists granting aliens what is the equivalent of divine status, Montesi is a believer granting deities physical and humanoid-like interactions with our continuum. To put it mildly "Aliens are Jesus, Jesus is every good unnamed alien in history".

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** Also, he seems to believe that Jesus is both a deity and an [[AncientAstronauts Ancient Astronaut]], and so are the TheReptilians, described as "clones of the Fallen Angels" devoid of any memory of their divine status. Thus, he may be on the polar opposite of the Raelien cult (see ''Raelien'' in this page): 'below): while the Raeliens are atheists granting aliens what is the equivalent of divine status, Montesi is a believer granting deities physical and humanoid-like interactions with our continuum. To put it mildly mildly: "Aliens are Jesus, Jesus is every good unnamed alien in history".
28th May '17 9:09:14 PM Fireblood
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* Robert J. Sawyer plays with this trope extensively in Calculating God. Thomas remains stubbornly atheist while several species of alien try to convince him that not only does God exist, but the math proves it.

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* Robert J. Sawyer plays with this trope extensively in Calculating God.''Calculating God''. Thomas remains stubbornly atheist while several species of alien try to convince him that not only does God exist, but the math proves it.



* Grace Van Pelt in ''Series/TheMentalist'' is like this. She is a religious believer and also believes that a relative is a psychic, and asks the titular mentalist how to distinguish "true" psychics from "false" ones. Patrick Jane dismisses her with a categorical "There is no such thing as psychics" but she refuses to acknowledge it. She closes the discussion with the non-sequitur "The Kingdom of Heaven is a real place, Mr. Jane."
** As I recall it's the only time this was brought up, and in her case the belief in psychics specifically revolved over their supposed ability to communicate with the dead, the afterlife being central to Christian doctrine.

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* Grace Van Pelt in ''Series/TheMentalist'' is like this. She is a religious believer and also believes that a relative is a psychic, and asks the titular mentalist how to distinguish "true" psychics from "false" ones. Patrick Jane dismisses her with a categorical "There is no such thing as psychics" but she refuses to acknowledge it. She closes the discussion with the non-sequitur "The Kingdom of Heaven is a real place, Mr. Jane."
** As I recall it's the only time
In this was brought up, and in her case the connection was sensible, since her belief in psychics specifically revolved over their supposed ability to communicate with the dead, the afterlife being central to Christian doctrine.



** Somewhat similar case with Giordano Bruno: they didn't care about his idea that other worlds existed with lifeforms on them, but denying the miracle of the virgin birth? No way.
14th May '17 10:09:46 PM billybobfred
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* Christians who take the Bible in its most literal form usually do ''not'' believe in aliens due to the fact that Jesus came to Earth in human form and died in that form, and has forever taken on physical human form after rising from the dead. Why would He take on the form of a human, permanently, if there are other forms of life in the universe that don't look human? Why would he come to just one planet if others had life? Did literally none of those planets have a fall from grace? Also, as God proclaimed man to be made in His image, this precludes the idea of intelligent forms of life that look different from "the image of God". In this case, it is If Jesus, then [[AvertedTrope Not Aliens]].

to:

* Christians who take the Bible in its most literal form usually do ''not'' believe in aliens due to the fact that Jesus came to Earth in human form and died in that form, and has forever taken on physical human form after rising from the dead. Why would He take on the form of a human, permanently, if there are other forms of life in the universe that don't look human? Why would he come to just one planet if others had life? Did literally none of those planets have a fall from grace? Also, as God proclaimed man to be made in His image, this precludes the idea of intelligent forms of life that look different from "the image of God". In this case, it is If Jesus, then [[AvertedTrope Not Aliens]]. Or at least, HumanAliens only.
11th May '17 9:25:10 AM Hjortron18
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* Captain America in ''Film/TheAvengers2012''. While he refuses to believe Thor and Loki are gods ("There's only one God, m'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that."), he accepts that they're magic-using aliens without question. Of course, he ''has'' seen the very-unscientific powers of the Tesseract [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheFirstAvenger first-hand]], so it's not that much of a stretch for him. Steve is technically correct, as well, given that in the movie universe, the Asgardians are supposed to be {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s.

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* Captain America in ''Film/TheAvengers2012''. While he refuses to believe Thor and Loki are gods ("There's only one God, m'am, ma'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that."), he accepts that they're magic-using aliens without question. Of course, he ''has'' seen the very-unscientific powers of the Tesseract [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheFirstAvenger first-hand]], so it's not that much of a stretch for him. Steve is technically correct, as well, given that in the movie universe, the Asgardians are supposed to be {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s.
9th May '17 10:47:56 PM Golondrina
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** Similarly, an early scene in ''Film/TheDarkKnight'' suggested that anyone who believes in Batman not only also believes in Bigfoot, but furthermore believes that Creator/ElvisPresley and UsefulNotes/AbrahamLincoln are still alive.

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** Similarly, an early scene in ''Film/TheDarkKnight'' suggested that anyone who believes in Batman not only also believes in Bigfoot, but furthermore believes that Creator/ElvisPresley Music/ElvisPresley and UsefulNotes/AbrahamLincoln are still alive.
4th May '17 11:16:08 AM Hjortron18
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* Captain America in ''Film/TheAvengers2012''. While he refuses to believe Thor and Loki are gods ("There's only one God, m'am, and he doesn't dress like that."), he accepts that they're magic-using aliens without question. Of course, he ''has'' seen the very-unscientific powers of the Tesseract [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheFirstAvenger first-hand]], so it's not that much of a stretch for him. Steve is technically correct, as well, given that in the movie universe, the Norse gods are supposed to be {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s.

to:

* Captain America in ''Film/TheAvengers2012''. While he refuses to believe Thor and Loki are gods ("There's only one God, m'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that."), he accepts that they're magic-using aliens without question. Of course, he ''has'' seen the very-unscientific powers of the Tesseract [[Film/CaptainAmericaTheFirstAvenger first-hand]], so it's not that much of a stretch for him. Steve is technically correct, as well, given that in the movie universe, the Norse gods Asgardians are supposed to be {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s.
11th Apr '17 10:24:30 AM DustSnitch
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[[InWhichATropeIsDescribed Trope Part the First]]: Anyone on television who is a person of faith is a person who will believe in anything. Unicorns. [=UFOs=]. Psychics. Snake handling. Bigfoot. Yes, [[AllMythsAreTrue all of them at once]], even if they are contradictory. Thus: ''If Jesus, Then Aliens''. "Believers" are [[BeliefMakesYouStupid gullible idiots]] who will accept pretty much anything as not just possible, but probable, or even likely.

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[[InWhichATropeIsDescribed Trope Part the First]]: Anyone on television who is a person of faith is a person who will believe in anything. Unicorns. [=UFOs=]. Psychics. Snake handling. Bigfoot. Yes, [[AllMythsAreTrue all of them at once]], even if they are contradictory. Thus: ''If Jesus, UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}}, Then Aliens''. "Believers" are [[BeliefMakesYouStupid gullible idiots]] who will accept pretty much anything as not just possible, but probable, or even likely.
13th Jan '17 10:02:54 PM Doug86
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** Here's an example from ''JLA.''

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** Here's an example from ''JLA.''''JLA''.



* This is ultimately the crux of the judge's decision regarding the existence of Santa Claus in the climax of the remake of ''Film/MiracleOn34thStreet'': If the U.S. government has the wherewithal to put "In God We Trust" on their money, then who is he to declare false the faith that Kris Kringle is Santa Claus?

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* This is ultimately the crux of the judge's decision regarding the existence of Santa Claus in the climax of the remake of ''Film/MiracleOn34thStreet'': ''Film/MiracleOnThirtyFourthStreet'': If the U.S. government has the wherewithal to put "In God We Trust" on their money, then who is he to declare false the faith that Kris Kringle is Santa Claus?
5th Nov '16 9:27:53 PM zunger
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Added DiffLines:

** This was the reasoning used to condemn [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno Giordano Bruno's]] belief in the existence of other worlds as heresy, and him to the stake, in [[RealLife Real Life]].
27th Oct '16 11:45:46 PM Mhazard
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* Christians who take the Bible in its most literal form usually do ''not'' believe in aliens due to the fact that Jesus came to Earth in human form and died in that form, and has forever taken on physical human form after rising from the dead. Why would He take on the form of a human, permanently, if there are other forms of life in the universe that don't look human? Why would he come to just one planet if others had life? Did literally none of those planets have a fall from grace? Also, as God proclaimed man to be made in His image, this precludes the idea of intelligent forms of life that look different from "the image of God". In this case, it is If Jesus, then Not Aliens.

to:

* Christians who take the Bible in its most literal form usually do ''not'' believe in aliens due to the fact that Jesus came to Earth in human form and died in that form, and has forever taken on physical human form after rising from the dead. Why would He take on the form of a human, permanently, if there are other forms of life in the universe that don't look human? Why would he come to just one planet if others had life? Did literally none of those planets have a fall from grace? Also, as God proclaimed man to be made in His image, this precludes the idea of intelligent forms of life that look different from "the image of God". In this case, it is If Jesus, then [[AvertedTrope Not Aliens.Aliens]].
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