Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Greenygal: Deleted Jade and Obsidian from the DC examples; their parents were married, although very briefly.

Richard AK: The biblical quotation at the top of the page isn't really accurate or appropriate, since the Hebrew word "mamzer" doesn't really mean "bastard." A bastard is one whose parents were unmarried. A mamzer is a child of a married woman by a man other than her husband. All mamzerim are thus bastards, but not all bastards are mamzerim.

Bob: Fascinating.

Nornagest: Cut the following —

...with no source of stability or discipline, youths - especially boys - turn out rather poorly, on average. In the end, societies that do not enjoy the unlimited wealth and ease of the West cannot afford to ignore the facts on the ground: stigmatize bastards (and thus, protect yourself and your people) or pay the price in blood and treasure.

There's a few issues with this. First of all, it sounds a lot like someone's trying to make some kind of Point, although I'm not sure exactly what axe is being ground; it also seems a little over-narrow to characterize fathers as the only possible source of stability and discipline. The biggest problem, however, is that it's disconnected from the article; it doesn't mesh with the rest of the trope, and in some ways actively contradicts it. Replaced with something that should work as a lead-in to the next paragraphs and thus improve the article's flow.

-I cut this paragraph because it's not factual.

"In Real Life, there was a man who lived in England, who was born out of wedlock, and because of the cruelty of the laws then, if he got married and had children, despite the fact he was married, they would also be bastards. So, he never married and became very rich. In a form of spite against the laws of his country, his will donated everything he owned to the people of the United States, a country he had never visited, for the creation of a facility for learning. James Smithson's gift became the founding of the Smithsonian Institution, the largest museum complex in the United States."

I don't know where this came from, but it's not true. If Smithson had married, his children would have been as legitimate as any. There has NEVER been any such law in the history of England.

Do satanic marriages count? Because I think Raven's parent did have some form of ceremony, or at least some blood spattered ritual to summon the groom, but I'm sure it was at least a package deal.

Vifetoile: Removed the names of Athena and Aphrodite from the list of mythological figures. Athena's mother, Metis, was Zeus' first wife, so she was totally legitimate, just considered motherless. And Aphrodite has no parentage at all in most myths - she just emerged from the sea-foam after a few interesting things fell into it.

This troper cannot imagine where the notion illegitimate children were not allowed to attend Church services came from. Possibly some Protestant denominations do this but for centuries the Catholic church was a favorite depository for illegitimate children. Granted this required a dispensation but those were so freely available that Parish priests actually kept blank forms on hand. It should be added that the Church could be a fine career for men and women alike, and at worst it was lifelong security. Also fathers often were required by courts to provide support for their byblows in the 'bad old days'. In all fairness many seem to have done so voluntarily.