This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Oh, how I adore stereotypes. Real mature.
Ethereal Mutation: Not only is it a stupid stereotype, it's also wildly inaccurate. Out of all the major categories of "geek" fandoms (outside of fanfiction, but it's not really fair to list writing in general as a "geek" activity), both fantasy and roleplaying are easily the closest to gender equal. They aren't quite female dominated, but it's pathetically easy to find women who are into either. Not like it's that hard to find women in practically any fandom, but these two are the major ones. Anyway, I'll just go ahead and rewrite that paragraph.
Sikon: While I agree, especially about roleplaying (I've been surprised to find out how many roleplayers on Argent Dawn are female in real life or at least claim to be so), I should also note that the stereotype-laden sentence in question didn't say anything about genders.
Ethereal Mutation: Even though the sentence doesn't state gender, anyone even the slightest bit familiar with geek stereotyping knows that it's predominantly about men. Anyway, I went ahead and changed it, so it's a bit of a moot point.
Lord TNK: I'm okay with the better description you made, but I'm a nerd, so that was more Self-Deprecation than bashing.
aswilson: I realize we're not looking for an encyclopedic level of rigor here, but the page can't seem to decide whether it's referring to power metal, metal (or any other music) that makes specific references to specific works of fiction, or metal with general fantastic themes; power metal isn't defined at all in terms of lyrical content. Thoughts?
Dragon Quest Z: You're just reading it that way. The page makes it clear it about any kind of metal with fantasy themes. Power Metal is specifically mentioned to be just a type.
Licky Lindsay: it's cool to see we have a page about this kind of thing. I always called the older examples of this "Dungeon Rock". As for Older Than They Think, does anyone actually think this isn't old though?
Battle Hamster: I realize that the list of examples is getting long enough that some kind of sorting is needed, but sorting them by subgenre seems a bit impossible. There's Blind Guardian, which is speed, power, progressive, and sometimes symphonic metal, depending on your opinion. Iced Earth is power, heavy, and thrash metal. Then there's the Viking metal subgenre, except it's not exactly a subgenre, because it's based on whether or it's about Vikings, so there can be Viking death metal. (However I'm not sure how else we could sort it - maybe vague fantasy themes/references (Helloween, Dragonforce) vs. specific stories (Blind Guardian, Ayreon, Rhapsody), though I'm not sure that that would be any easier, or where that would leave bands like Iron Maiden that have occasional songs about both. Maybe degrees of geekiness? But I'm not sure that would be any easier, either.) In any case, if we stay with subgenres, we should probably make it clear that, in this context, heavy metal refers to the subgenre, not all metal.
aswilson: Regarding Older Than They Think, I'd argue that metal is, in mass culture, generally associated with the emphasis on "evil", and that the more fantastic stuff is generally thought of as a weird offshoot, instead of something that's been with it since the beginning.
Max Chaplin: Hmmm... Is there place for non-metal fantasy-oriented music here?
Twin Bird: Whether or not there is, a lot has found its way onto the list. It'd have to be some sort of hard rock/punk rock, at least...the dissonance this trope suggests doesn't work otherwise.
Springjack: What about bands like the Decemberists? I mean, some of their stuff doesn't sound too far off from the beginnings of heavy metal in terms of power..... and their recent album The Hazards of Love is a Changeling Fantasy with Murder Ballads and evil Queens......
I mean, Led Zeppelin really isn't considered heavy metal nowadays (either is Black Sabbath but.... Fan Dumb.)
Licky Lindsay: Zeppelin and (especially) Sabbath are indisputably ancestral to Metal, so they belong in this trope.
Meanwhile, it's not just musical genre that gets fuzzy. Does "horror" count for this trope? If Lovecraf counts, do Vampires, Werewolves, Zombies.. Cause there's a whole lot of songs about those.
Max Chaplin: I wonder whether the Flaming Lips belong here. They rock hard, though not consistently, and their lyrics are often Sci-Fi-themed. They have a Concept Album named "Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots", with corresponding lyrics and sounds.
Mio: I edited this example out:
- And sticks to it. A Nightmare to Remember. A Rite of Passage. Just to name two.
These two songs are not examples of this trope. The former is about a traumatic car crash and the latter is about real life Free Masons.
Shouldn't Power Metal (and possibly viking metal as well) have it's own page rather than a redirect? Power metal is a distinct musical style as opposed to mainly lyrics (with necessary 'many power metal bands have Heavy Mithril lyrics' or whatever) and there are enough power metal bands around, while if you talk to someone outside this wiki about Heavy Mithril, they will likely be like 'er... wut?'. If people agree I can make a start on it.
I agree - I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. I'll try to get a start on it, if someone else doesn't get there first.
Mag Flare: I want to thank Smapti for bringing Alestorm to my attention. Hot damn, but they're awesome.
