This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Janitor: Chopping this up to fit the thesis of Good=Dumb resulted in about three lines. Good=Evil, maybe.
Maybe.Anyone have an idea of how to fix this? It is all over the place.
Adonic Meki: Perhaps we could call this entry Turncoat Decay, since that seems to pretty much be the idea: all you have to do is switch sides from evil to good, and you become weaker. LATER: Anyone have any thoughts on this change? A second for the alternative name, better alternative names, some other way to fix up the entry, whatever.
Gus I think you are onto it. The premise is misstated. Good Is Weak for a title fixes a lot of it, methinks.
Red Shoe: Good Is Lame was what I originally wanted for this, and changed it purely on the basis of that Spaceballs quote. It's a decision I now regret.
Gus: Turning Good Makes You Lame, then. The Spaceballs quote still works.
Harry: Haha, someone edited the spoiler thnigy in my example, thanks whoever did that. Oh, and i think goodisdumb or goodisweaker are good names. I guess the page is basically about how you can't have someone really powerful on your side, because then the player has no challenge.
Sunder the Gold: Good Is Lame would have made a more accurate title, but that's more derrogatory than necessary for the basis of the trope, which is the fact that the protagonists must be the underdogs (or at least at a major disadvantage) in order for the story to be interesting. It's not just about turncoats getting weaker, it's about all of the heroes being weaker as a matter of course. Good Is Weak doesn't seem appropriate either, since Good almost always ends up winning the day, and thus proving itself stronger than Evil. Protagonists=Underdogs, perhaps works better. In any case, we should really think about changing this trope's title to anything else, now that we have the Hero Ball to explain bouts of heroic stupidity.
Gus: Re: the Angel reference "...when it became a major plot-point that his evil alter-ego was significantly more intelligent." I'm not sure what was meant from Season 4 to support this.
Zeke: I noticed this too, so I modified it. I think what the editor meant was Angelus' knowledge of the Beast — which had nothing to do with intelligence, he was just exempt from the spell covering up the Beast's existence.
Cosmetor: On the Paper Mario example: it's a spoiler, so it gets spoiler space. Also, Vivian was a male in the Japanese version. I refer to him with male pronouns to avoid spoiling the reader as to his joining the party.
Tanto: It's not a huge spoiler, though. It's not necessary to spoilerize every little plot point, or the whole damn wiki would be spoilered. For your example, the spoilers make the reading nonsensical. As this entry is about villains who turn good, every example is a spoiler to some extent, and unless it's a big, huge thing that the plot hinges on (which this isn't — just a garden variety Heel–Face Turn), it's not necessary to hide it. I'm changing it back.
See the Spoiler Policy and its discussion for more details on this (or if you want to argue about it).
As for the Japanese, eh, who cares? There seems to be a bit of a debate about original Japanese versus dubs/localizations going on elsewhere, but Vivian works much better as a female rather than a Wholesome Crossdresser, methinks.
Bob: I removed the Baldur's Gate example because of 3 reasons:
1: Thanks to Leaked Experience, he starts at the same level as the party.
2: He's still the biggest Badass in the game, even counting literal Dragons, several Evil Overlords and a cameo appearance from Elminster. (This one is personal opinion, but hey: There Is No Such Thing As Notability)
3: Because of the difference in experience caps, he's actually much, much stronger than he was in the first game.
arromdee: Deleted the Terminator 2 example. Arnie in it plays a different Terminator than the one from the first movie.
That Other 1 Dude: Removed
- Order Of The Stick not only subverts this trope, but calls it out by name, when an evil Half-Orc assassin is ambushed by a group of paladins.
"Contrary to popular opinion, Good is not always dumb."
- And then she has to keep repeating herself because no one gets why Lien and Hinjo didn't do something polite (and therefore "good") but counterproductive.
While it is a reference to the trope name (and/or the Spaceballs line), it's doesn't really have anything to do with this trope. The "dumb" she's referring to is more like Lawful Stupid.
Danel: Natter natter natter:
- What are you on about? All the Green Ranger lost was a fireball attack, his sword and some evil healing. He was still a much better fighter than any of the other rangers (notably beating the crap out of Goldar when unmorphed, whereas Red Ranger struggles to stay alive), and his Dragonzord could stall a foe that destroys the Megazord in seconds. Not to mention that when Dragonzord merges with Megazord you get something more than double the power of Megazord.
- Of course, the original Green Ranger was sort of justified in that his sword, which gave him a large amount of power but also made him evil, was destroyed, thus causing his Heel–Face Turn. ...Or So I Heard...
- In Power Rangers: Lightspeed Rescue, when Impus steals Diaboloco's star power after the Rangers defeat him, Diaboloco returns later on, though is more-or-less an afterthought by the Rangers compared to newer Monsters of the Week.
Also, I'm really not sure if this counts, since while a number of fans may prefer him evil, he's not really much weaker once he becomes a good guy:
- Spike in Buffy The Vampire Slayer started out as a decoy Big Bad, but ultimately turned good and suffered massive Himification.
Nor am I sure about the Angel example, though I haven't removed it - it seems to take the trope title too literally (on which note, is it going to be changed? It's kind of confusing)and whether or not Angelus is smarter than Angel, he's also much more arrogant, which can trip him up. Also, can someone who knows anything about Digimon Frontier edit the example to make it less whiney?
Charred Knight: We need to clean this up and remove subversions, aversions, and inverted into Evil Is Dumb
MFM: Pulled due to not relating to the trope at all:
- This Troper, when he picks up a Firecracker Cannon in Super Smash Bros Brawl, should always (and sometimes does) throw it off the stage. Because, of the four players in any given game (himself, his brother, and two level 9 CPUs), This Troper is the worst at using the Firecracker Cannon, so best to get rid of it before someone else takes it.
