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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Trouser Wearing Barbarian: Sorry, but this entry is seriously rubbing me the wrong way.
Haruka in Sailor Moon seems like a walking stereotype today, although back in The
Nineties, her presence in a children's series was a lot more groundbreaking.
Butch Lesbian and Camp Gay people exist in real life, dammit, and they're usually the ones who get the most homophobia directed towards them, sometimes even from other gay people. In fiction, Straight Gay characters are usually the only ones allowed to be anything other than a walking joke or Pet Homosexual. Keeping this in mind, I'd consider a "stereotypical" gay character who is also three dimensional and sympathetic to be pretty groundbreaking in its own right.

osh: I think the entry is rationalizing that Haruka is implicitly a Takarazuka Revue style character and calling her 'butch' (which is loaded with a lot of stereotypes) is mostly a thing from western fan perspective.

Trouser Wearing Barbarian: That, too. Either way, the "walking stereotype" comment is gratuitous. Thanks for re-writing it, I was going to do it myself, but I couldn't think of anything to say besides "Haruka from Sailor Moon."

Jomar: I do believe the pic in the article is a serious case of Hollywood Homely. The woman still looks pretty feminine.
  • Narvi: Oh? Do they have to be ugly to count as butch?
    • Well no, but they have to be unfeminine. Which the woman in the pic most certainly isn't.
  • I agree, Kate Moennig is much closer to chapstick than butch.
  • Matthew The Raven:: Yeah, Shane's more androgynous than straight up butch. Can we get a Bechdel panel up in here?
  • Twin Bird: I'd say it should definitely be live-action, but...I can't think of a significant character, in any live-action piece, whom I would call "butch." Not even the chirpy kind of butch. Maybe a celebrity? Shimizu?
  • Count Choculitis: I don't know, I don't think it needs to be live action. If we're going for "stereotypical butch lesbian," then oddly, most of the best examples I can think of are animated/drawn. (Bechdel characters, the lesbian couple from The Goode Family, Dana from Rick & Steve: The Happiest Gay Couple in All the World...) You're right, for whatever reason, most of the butch live action characters, as well as successful real-life celebrities, tend to be more on the soft butch/androgynous side (I'd include Shimizu in that, personally). kd lang is a notable exception. Perhaps her?
  • C Banana: I uploaded a picture of KD Lang for use in the article but someone edited it out. I'm just going to leave it here for now.

  • Lavode: "Probably most of the female cast in Hellsing." What? Heinkel may fit the trope depending on your interpretation of her relationship with Yumiko/Yumie, but isn't Seras/Pip and Integra/Alucard more or less canon?