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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Doug S Machina: Did anyone else read this title and think of "Black Hole Sun" by...I can't remember?
  • Haven: *just added The Stinger based along those lines* Heh. Clearly, you were not.

Cassius335 Soundgarden, according to The Other Wiki

Visitor: ...Why is this called a Black Hole Sue? Isn't this just what a Mary Sue does in a story? How can a Mary Sue be a Mary Sue without this and why is it separated? Does this have something to do with the silly-looking Mary Sue page?

Rebochan: Is there really a point to this page? It seems incredibly redundant since its just describing every single Mary Sue in existence - and we already have a definition page for that. Since there's not supposed to be any examples anyway, why essentially restate what we've already said about Mary Sue? The original purpose of the "clean up" was to make less extraneous Sue pages, not more of them.

Trouser Wearing Barbarian: Seriously. This page is just Mary Sue. I vote that we cut this and use this definition for the main Mary Sue page to replace that current one, which is largely meaningless.

Mouser: This was the main Mary Sue description, until it was moved here and replaced by a mess that can be summarized as "I don't know, and neither do you".

Trouser Wearing Barbarian: Yeah. Mary Sue = author wish-fulfillment fantasy that acts as a plot black hole. Any character that doesn't fit this isn't a Mary Sue, regardless of how annoying they might be. Common Mary Sue Traits are just that - common, not "synonymous."

Unfortunately, some people will call any character that they dislike with a couple of Common Mary Sue Traits a "Mary Sue" regardless of whether or not they fit the definition.

Mouser: Cutlisted again. Let's see how long it stays on the cutlist this time.

Fast Eddie: Not long.

Mouser: Is there a particular reason for this?

Fast Eddie: For not cutting it? It was the use of this definition as the sole definition in Mary Sue that kicked off the last round of "It means this. No! It means this other thing!" The current article is correct in its appraisal that no one agrees on the definition in any solid way. As to the case for having Black Hole Sue, obviously this aspect of the definitions has some support. The issue of whether or not it is the definition is not something we can — or should try to — resolve.

Mouser: How controversial was it really? I don't recall anyone except you and Ethereal Mutation objecting to this definition.

Fast Eddie: The definition of Mary Sue means absolutely nothing to me, personally. When reviewing the YKTTW discussions (archived at the top of Mary Sue Discussion) it became clear that no consensus was going to be reached on the definition. As to how controversial: very, apparently. There are hundreds of posts in those discussions. Surprised me, for such an inconsequential topic. Evidently, people feel strongly about it for some reason.

Mouser: Look again. See how much one side of the debate consisted of one person.

Rebochan: There was a consensus. The only reason the discussion kept going was because Ethereal Mutation would keep starting more and more YKTT Ws every time she lost. Furthermore, having "no definition" of Mary Sue is insane when clearly TV Tropes is using a definition. This page is redundant.

Rebochan: I would like to add that hey, definition agreed on or not, this page describes all of our Sues and is completely redundant.


Fast Eddie: Oh, so this is the person who has the 100% agreed-to definition of a Mary Sue. Only about the tenth one this week with an utterly different certainty.
  • Visitor, now on a different computer: You IP-banned me for two edits when I questioned the current state of Mary Sue? If you think I was rude, that's one thing and I'd be happy to apologise, but I seriously object to being banned because my opinion differed from yours. In any case, I'd rather just never look at Mary Sue pages again if it means I'm not forbidden from YKTTW and the rest of the site, where I spend most of my time.


Andrusi: Can I just pop in here and comment? I've seen a sizeable number of recent uses of the term Mary Sue in contexts that don't fit Black Hole Sue. Bob and George used it in the narration in the sense of a God-Mode Sue, in a context where Black Hole Sue wouldn't even make sense because the character in question only occasionally even exists. I'm also aware of people who use the term Mary Sue as a synonym for Original Character. The original definition, which is still used in many circles, is synonymous with Author Avatar. And so on. I guess what I'm saying is that I think it's silly to claim that Black Hole Sue is The Definitive Mary Sue Definition That Everyone Agrees On Except Ethereal Mutation And Fast Eddie Who Are Stupid when there are people out there who think it's merely a common consequence of being whatever they think Mary Sue means.

You may accuse me of being in on the conspiracy now.

Rebochan: Actually...no. Author Avatar is not automatically a Sue. And really, Bob and George is, at best, a Parody Sue example...let me take care of that. In any case, we don't count Sues just because someone screams "MARY SUE!" when they're clearly not.

Oh, and if my point hasn't been proven enough, this whole Sue concept is being debated *again* on the forums.

Andrusi: Well of course there's a consensus on what it means if you dismiss everyone who disagrees as wrong.

Lord Stampher: I think Donna Noble from Doctor Who should be added as an example, seeing how "multiple universes" were literally collapsing around her. I don't think any character embodies this trope more fully.