[007]
ScarletSpecter
Current Version
Changed line(s) 3 from:
n
But, I do understand what you\'re trying to get at. Toph was acting more \
to:
But, I do understand what you\\\'re getting at. Toph was acting more \\\"feminine\\\" than normal and, of course, that involved her looks being brought up. She reacted poorly to a bunch of girls comparing her to a monkey. The \\\'\\\'context\\\'\\\' is a source of contention for me. \\\'\\\'Anyone\\\'\\\', male or female, would be just slightly miffed to be insulted that way. I guess ultimately all that mattered for Toph was that she was beautiful, but at the same time, she was determined to \\\'\\\'not care\\\'\\\'. Yes Toph, a {{Tomboy}}, may still secretly [[{{Hidden Depths}} want to be pretty]]. But, I\\\'m not sure if it necessarily counts against Toph, herself, as much as those [[{{Alpha Bitch}} girls who attacked her]].
What I got from your example was that just being more effeminate (already a loaded word), made Toph \\\"vain\\\", therefore childish. Simply trying to be \\\"girly\\\" or being into makeup, by default, makes you a [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} shallow, looks-obsessed bimbo]]. I know that\\\'s not what you meant. And I understand \\\"vanity\\\" [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} means different things to us]], but the main reason I found it so inappropriate was that it could imply that to explore femininity and looks, at all, counted as being vain (a word that carries a lot negative connotations and emotional baggage that [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} is treated synonomously with girliness]]).
You\\\'ve changed the description. But, I thought that for this trope to be legitamate, it needed to be asserted within the narrative that it\\\'s \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be vain because its \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be feminine. That episode showed that both Toph and Katara [[{{Feminist Fantasy}} can connect on girly things and still be awesome warriors]]. Your definition of \\\"vain\\\", in this case isn\\\'t as bad, because it\\\'s just treated like a preference in the show; not something that a girl needs [[{{Acceptable Feminine Goals}} to be to be a girl]]. I thought for this trope to count, there had to be concious derision toward \\\"vain\\\" people (male or female) as frivolous drama queens. Because girliness is [[{{Damsel In Distress}} weakness]]. Girliness is [[{{All Women Are Lustful}} lewd]]. If a person\\\'s girly, regardless of gender, they are [[{{Vanity Is Feminine}} shallow]], [[{{Alpha Bitch}} vindicitive]], and [[{{Hysterical Woman}} ineffectual]] at best.
Gay/effeminate men get hit with this especially hard, but, women also recieve spite as well. Some men will roll their eyes and [[{{He Man Woman Hater}} scorn women]] because they\\\'re \\\"shallow\\\", but it\\\'s just [[{{Unfortunate Implications}} natural]] and [[{{Double Standard}} fine]] for them [[{{Men Act Women Are}} because]] they\\\'re [[{{Women Are Delicate}} women]]. They can\\\'t help being worthless. But, when a \\\'\\\'man\\\'\\\' acts like that, all of a sudden it\\\'s perverse and evil.
What I got from your example was that just being more effeminate (already a loaded word), made Toph \\\"vain\\\", therefore childish. Simply trying to be \\\"girly\\\" or being into makeup, by default, makes you a [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} shallow, looks-obsessed bimbo]]. I know that\\\'s not what you meant. And I understand \\\"vanity\\\" [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} means different things to us]], but the main reason I found it so inappropriate was that it could imply that to explore femininity and looks, at all, counted as being vain (a word that carries a lot negative connotations and emotional baggage that [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} is treated synonomously with girliness]]).
You\\\'ve changed the description. But, I thought that for this trope to be legitamate, it needed to be asserted within the narrative that it\\\'s \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be vain because its \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be feminine. That episode showed that both Toph and Katara [[{{Feminist Fantasy}} can connect on girly things and still be awesome warriors]]. Your definition of \\\"vain\\\", in this case isn\\\'t as bad, because it\\\'s just treated like a preference in the show; not something that a girl needs [[{{Acceptable Feminine Goals}} to be to be a girl]]. I thought for this trope to count, there had to be concious derision toward \\\"vain\\\" people (male or female) as frivolous drama queens. Because girliness is [[{{Damsel In Distress}} weakness]]. Girliness is [[{{All Women Are Lustful}} lewd]]. If a person\\\'s girly, regardless of gender, they are [[{{Vanity Is Feminine}} shallow]], [[{{Alpha Bitch}} vindicitive]], and [[{{Hysterical Woman}} ineffectual]] at best.
Gay/effeminate men get hit with this especially hard, but, women also recieve spite as well. Some men will roll their eyes and [[{{He Man Woman Hater}} scorn women]] because they\\\'re \\\"shallow\\\", but it\\\'s just [[{{Unfortunate Implications}} natural]] and [[{{Double Standard}} fine]] for them [[{{Men Act Women Are}} because]] they\\\'re [[{{Women Are Delicate}} women]]. They can\\\'t help being worthless. But, when a \\\'\\\'man\\\'\\\' acts like that, all of a sudden it\\\'s perverse and evil.
Changed line(s) 3 from:
n
But, I do understand what you\'re trying to get at. Toph was acting more \
to:
But, I do understand what you\\\'re getting at. Toph was acting more \\\"feminine\\\" than normal and, of course, that involved her looks being brought up. She reacted poorly to a bunch of girls comparing her to a monkey. The \\\'\\\'context\\\'\\\' is a source of contention for me. \\\'\\\'Anyone\\\'\\\', male or female, would be just slightly miffed to be insulted that way. I guess ultimately all that mattered for Toph was that she was beautiful, but at the same time, she was determined to \\\'\\\'not care\\\'\\\'. Yes Toph, a {{Tomboy}}, may still secretly [[{{Hidden Depths}} want to be pretty]]. But, I\\\'m not sure if it necessarily counts against Toph, herself, as much as those [[{{Alpha Bitch}} girls who attacked her]].
What I got from your example was that just being more effeminate (already a loaded word), made Toph \\\"vain\\\", therefore childish. Simply trying to be \\\"girly\\\" or being into makeup, by default, makes you a [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} shallow, looks-obsessed bimbo]]. I know that\\\'s not what you meant. And I understand \\\"vanity\\\" [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} means different things to us]], but the main reason I found it so inappropriate was that it could imply that to explore femininity and looks, at all, counted as being vain (a word that carries a lot negative connotations and emotional baggage that [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} is treated synonomously with girliness]]).
You\\\'ve changed the description. But, I thought that for this trope to be legitamate, it needed to be asserted within the narrative that it\\\'s \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be vain because its \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be feminine. That episode showed that both Toph and Katara [[{{Feminist Fantasy}} can connect on girly things and still be awesome warriors]]. Your definition of \\\"vain\\\", in this case isn\\\'t as bad, because it\\\'s just treated like a preference in the show; not something that a girl needs [[{{Acceptable Feminine Goals}} to be to be a girl]]. I thought for this trope to count, there had to be concious derision toward \\\"vain\\\" people (male or female) as frivolous drama queens. Because girliness is [[{{Damsel In Distress}} weakness]]. Girliness is [[{{All Women Are Lustful}} lewd]]. If a person\\\'s girly, regardless of gender, they are [[{{Vanity Is Feminine}} shallow]], [[{{Alpha Bitch}} vindicitive]], and [[{{Hysterical Woman}} ineffectual]] at best.
Gay/effeminate men get hit with this especially hard, but, women also recieve spite as well. Some men will role their eyes and [[{{He Man Woman Hater}} scorn women]] because they\\\'re \\\"shallow\\\", but it\\\'s just [[{{Unfortunate Implications}} natural]] and [[{{Double Standard}} fine]] for them [[{{Men Act Women Are}} because]] they\\\'re [[{{Women Are Delicate}} women]]. They can\\\'t help being worthless. But, when a \\\'\\\'man\\\'\\\' acts like that, all of a sudden it\\\'s perverse and evil.
What I got from your example was that just being more effeminate (already a loaded word), made Toph \\\"vain\\\", therefore childish. Simply trying to be \\\"girly\\\" or being into makeup, by default, makes you a [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} shallow, looks-obsessed bimbo]]. I know that\\\'s not what you meant. And I understand \\\"vanity\\\" [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} means different things to us]], but the main reason I found it so inappropriate was that it could imply that to explore femininity and looks, at all, counted as being vain (a word that carries a lot negative connotations and emotional baggage that [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} is treated synonomously with girliness]]).
You\\\'ve changed the description. But, I thought that for this trope to be legitamate, it needed to be asserted within the narrative that it\\\'s \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be vain because its \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be feminine. That episode showed that both Toph and Katara [[{{Feminist Fantasy}} can connect on girly things and still be awesome warriors]]. Your definition of \\\"vain\\\", in this case isn\\\'t as bad, because it\\\'s just treated like a preference in the show; not something that a girl needs [[{{Acceptable Feminine Goals}} to be to be a girl]]. I thought for this trope to count, there had to be concious derision toward \\\"vain\\\" people (male or female) as frivolous drama queens. Because girliness is [[{{Damsel In Distress}} weakness]]. Girliness is [[{{All Women Are Lustful}} lewd]]. If a person\\\'s girly, regardless of gender, they are [[{{Vanity Is Feminine}} shallow]], [[{{Alpha Bitch}} vindicitive]], and [[{{Hysterical Woman}} ineffectual]] at best.
Gay/effeminate men get hit with this especially hard, but, women also recieve spite as well. Some men will role their eyes and [[{{He Man Woman Hater}} scorn women]] because they\\\'re \\\"shallow\\\", but it\\\'s just [[{{Unfortunate Implications}} natural]] and [[{{Double Standard}} fine]] for them [[{{Men Act Women Are}} because]] they\\\'re [[{{Women Are Delicate}} women]]. They can\\\'t help being worthless. But, when a \\\'\\\'man\\\'\\\' acts like that, all of a sudden it\\\'s perverse and evil.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
Look, I just don\'t agree with your \'\'definition\'\' of Vanity. Basically \'\'you\'re\'\' saying simply \'\'wanting\'\' to be beautiful or caring what other people think of you is being Vain. \'\'I\'m\'\' not saying vanity is uniformly bad; just that it\'s associated with shallowness and frivolity. I\'m just trying to say that it\'s a source of [[{{Double Standard}} Double Standards]] that could lead to some real {{Unfortunate Implications}} if used inappropriately. \'\'What\'\' exactly counts as inappropriate is [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} left to the viewer]].
to:
Look, I just don\\\'t agree with your \\\'\\\'definition\\\'\\\' of Vanity. Basically \\\'\\\'you\\\'re\\\'\\\' saying simply \\\'\\\'wanting\\\'\\\' to be beautiful or caring what other people think of you is being Vain. \\\'\\\'I\\\'m\\\'\\\' not saying vanity is uniformly bad; just that it\\\'s associated with shallowness and frivolity. This trope is a source of [[{{Double Standard}} Double Standards]] that could lead to some real {{Unfortunate Implications}} if used inappropriately. \\\'\\\'What\\\'\\\' exactly counts as inappropriate is [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} left to the viewer]].
Changed line(s) 3 from:
n
But, I do understand what you\'re trying to get at. Toph was acting more \
to:
But, I do understand what you\\\'re trying to get at. Toph was acting more \\\"feminine\\\" than normal and, of course, that involved her looks being brought up. She reacted poorly to a bunch of girls comparing her to a monkey. The \\\'\\\'context\\\'\\\' is a source of contention for me. \\\'\\\'Anyone\\\'\\\', male or female, would be just slightly miffed to be insulted that way. I guess ultimately all that mattered for Toph was that she was beautiful, but at the same time, she was determined to \\\'\\\'not care\\\'\\\'. Yes Toph, a {{Tomboy}}, still secretly [[{{Hidden Depths}} wants to be pretty]]. But, I\\\'m not sure if it necessarily counts against Toph, herself, as much as those [[{{Alpha Bitch}} girls who attacked her]].
What I got from your example was that just being more effeminate (already a loaded word), made Toph \\\"vain\\\", therefore childish. Simply trying to be \\\"girly\\\" or being into makeup, by default, makes you a [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} shallow, looks-obsessed bimbo]]. I know that\\\'s not what you meant. And I understand \\\"vanity\\\" [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} means different things to us]], but the main reason I found it so inappropriate was that it could imply that to explore femininity and looks, at all, counted as being vain (a word that carries a lot negative connotations and emotional baggage that [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} is treated synonomously with girliness]]).
You\\\'ve changed the description. But, I thought that for this trope to be legitamate, it needed to be asserted within the narrative that it\\\'s \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be vain because its \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be feminine. That episode showed that both Toph and Katara [[{{Feminist Fantasy}} can connect on girly things and still be awesome warriors]]. Your definition of \\\"vain\\\", in this case isn\\\'t as bad, because it\\\'s just treated like a preference in the show; not something that a girl needs [[{{Acceptable Feminine Goals}} to be a girl]]. I thought for this trope to count, there had to be concious derision toward \\\"vain\\\" people (male or female) as frivolous drama queens. Because girliness is [[{{Damsel In Distress}} weakness]]. Girliness is [[{{All Women Are Lustful}} lewd]]. If a person\\\'s girly, regardless of gender, they are [[{{Vanity Is Feminine}} shallow]], [[{{Alpha Bitch}} vindicitive]], and [[{{Hysterical Woman}} ineffectual]] at best.
Gay/effeminate men get hit with this especially hard, but, women also recieve spite as well. Some men will role their eyes and [[{{He Man Woman Hater}} scorn women]] because they\\\'re \\\"shallow\\\", but it\\\'s just [[{{Unfortunate Implications}} natural]] and [[{{Double Standard}} fine]] for them [[{{Men Act Women Are}} because]] they\\\'re [[{{Women Are Delicate}} women]]. They can\\\'t help being worthless. But, when a \\\'\\\'man\\\'\\\' acts like that, all of a sudden it\\\'s perverse and evil.
What I got from your example was that just being more effeminate (already a loaded word), made Toph \\\"vain\\\", therefore childish. Simply trying to be \\\"girly\\\" or being into makeup, by default, makes you a [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} shallow, looks-obsessed bimbo]]. I know that\\\'s not what you meant. And I understand \\\"vanity\\\" [[{{Your Mileage May Vary}} means different things to us]], but the main reason I found it so inappropriate was that it could imply that to explore femininity and looks, at all, counted as being vain (a word that carries a lot negative connotations and emotional baggage that [[{{Unfortunate Implication}} is treated synonomously with girliness]]).
You\\\'ve changed the description. But, I thought that for this trope to be legitamate, it needed to be asserted within the narrative that it\\\'s \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be vain because its \\\'\\\'bad\\\'\\\' to be feminine. That episode showed that both Toph and Katara [[{{Feminist Fantasy}} can connect on girly things and still be awesome warriors]]. Your definition of \\\"vain\\\", in this case isn\\\'t as bad, because it\\\'s just treated like a preference in the show; not something that a girl needs [[{{Acceptable Feminine Goals}} to be a girl]]. I thought for this trope to count, there had to be concious derision toward \\\"vain\\\" people (male or female) as frivolous drama queens. Because girliness is [[{{Damsel In Distress}} weakness]]. Girliness is [[{{All Women Are Lustful}} lewd]]. If a person\\\'s girly, regardless of gender, they are [[{{Vanity Is Feminine}} shallow]], [[{{Alpha Bitch}} vindicitive]], and [[{{Hysterical Woman}} ineffectual]] at best.
Gay/effeminate men get hit with this especially hard, but, women also recieve spite as well. Some men will role their eyes and [[{{He Man Woman Hater}} scorn women]] because they\\\'re \\\"shallow\\\", but it\\\'s just [[{{Unfortunate Implications}} natural]] and [[{{Double Standard}} fine]] for them [[{{Men Act Women Are}} because]] they\\\'re [[{{Women Are Delicate}} women]]. They can\\\'t help being worthless. But, when a \\\'\\\'man\\\'\\\' acts like that, all of a sudden it\\\'s perverse and evil.
