Discussion History Creator / Toonami

* It\\\'s fairly obvious that GeorgeRRMartin loves Catelyn Tully far more than fans do; consider that nearly all characters treat her as if she\\\'s wise and capable, more than one man loves her, and she\\\'s always written as the \\\"only adult in the room\\\" when in fact she\\\'s usually surrounded by seasoned warriors. She has her \\\"token flaw\\\" (that she cannot stand the sight of John Snow, who serves as a reminder of her husband\\\'s infidelity) but otherwise is perceived as near perfect by a lot of people. Problem is, her advice is usually bad, and driven by her swinging moods, and it\\\'s arguable that at least one of her brash actions provides the catalyst for much unpleasantness that follows. She frames the wrong person, abducts him without cause, takes him to her crazy sister for judgement, nearly getting him killed when he was in no way at fault, but is still presented not just sympathetically, but as if she\\\'s someone whose judgement her war-leader son should trust. [[spoiler:Yes, she died later, but that was more an indication of AnyoneCanDie, plus she\\\'s now back as an undead, apparently having learning nothing about rushing to judgement.]]
** In addition to her rashness, her hypocrisy is also an issue. More than once, she reminds her son that he is not just a teenage boy, but a king, and therefore does not have the luxury of thinking or acting like a boy. That\\\'s good advice. However, she later [[spoiler: frees Jamie Lannister from captivity, in the hopes that her daughters will be returned. In doing so, she seriously harms her son\\\'s war effort]]. She excuses herself by claiming that she acted out of \\\"mother\\\'s love\\\". Had she taken her own advice though, she would have realized that she is not just a mother, but the mother of a king, and thus does not have the luxury of thinking or acting like a normal mother. The reason this is so vexing is because the narrative clearly expects us to sympathize with her, portraying her as a tragic heroine, ignoring the fact that the situation is no one\\\'s fault but her own.

This really seems to be more character-bashing than an actual example of the trope. (Note that is says she \\\"frames\\\" the wrong person- she honestly thought that Tyrion had tried to kill her son) A lot of the reason that Catelyn is [[TheScrappy so hated by fans]] (as the above demonstrates) is because she\\\'s mean to fan favorites Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister, who definitely border on this trope if not fit it. Notably, both of them are presented as very cool and are quite lucky (at least as ASOIF characters go), whereas nothing good ever happens to Catelyn.

I think Catelyn is pretty clearly presented as the personification of \\\"the road to hell is paved with good intentions\\\". All of her decisions are at least somewhat reasonable based on the information she currently had, but all lead to horrible outcomes.

Along similar lines, while Catelyn is basically a good, well-intentioned person, she is very cold and judgmental- she exists to show how unpleasant a good, well-intentioned person can be ([[FanDumb which is why fans hate her far more than all the cool mass murderers]]).

Edit- Catelyn is very rarely treated as the voice of reason/the only adult in the room- the only times she is clearly this is more or less by default, when paired with her crazy sister or trying to mediate between the feuding brothers Stannis and Renly, which is a literal example of PoorCommunicationKills. She \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' sometimes more sensible than her son, Robb or brother, Edmure, but those times are counterbalanced by her own flaws (laid out in excruciating detail above).