[002]
Cherry_Lover
Current Version
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*Well, with Kohaku, there is certainly a certain amount of comparison between them. However, amongst English-speaking game players, Kohaku seems to have a *lot* fewer haters, even though she\'s undoubtedly more to blame for the bad things that happen than Sakura is.
*Look, you\'re entirely missing the point here. I\'m not saying psychological or physical abuse isn\'t bad, I\'m just saying that what Sakura seems to have gone through in the manga (Shinji beating her occasionally and maybe some abusive treatment from Byakuya) is several levels below what she went through in the game, and there\'s simply no way that that wouldn\'t have altered her. Hell, both Rin and Shirou *knew* she was being beaten at home, and they did nothing about it because they didn\'t consider it serious enough to make a huge fuss over it when she was always defending Shinji. But, even if you assume it wouldn\'t affect her personality, you\'re missing the bigger problem. In FSN, Zouken has the ability to torture and control Sakura at his whim. Therefore, she *can\'t* fight against him, and when he orders her to summon Rider, she has no option. She\'s not an ExtremeDoormat because she stands up to him as best as she can in the circumstances. Yes, the abuse causes her to be more inclined towards obeying him, but the whole point of Sakura\'s character is that even after going through all that, she is *still* not broken. When it comes down to it, she is able to refuse his orders, and once she gets the power to defeat him (as Dark Sakura) she actually takes the opportunity (eventually, anyway). If he didn\'t have the worms to control her, she would have told him where to stick his war. In the manga, the only power anyone has over her is psychological, and Byakuya (her trainer) is dead. Plus, unless he\'s *really* incompetent, she should be a better magus here, since he\'s actually taught her magic rather than simply throwing her into a basement full of worms. Whilst she may well feel sympathy for Shinji, there\'s no way in hell she\'d summon a servant so that he could fight in a battle to the death against the guy she loves. FSN Sakura is *far* too strong to be bullied into it in a scenario like the one she is in in the manga, so for manga Sakura to be bullied into it, she has to be a *much* weaker person. There is no doubt in my mind that if you took the FSN Sakura (as she was at age 4) and put her through the manga timeline, you would not get manga Sakura out at the end. And, for that matter, if you took FSN Sakura as she was at *15* and put her into the manga situation (prior to the summoning of Rider) she would simply not have fought. So, manga Sakura cannot possibly be seen as the same person as FSN Sakura. She\'s totally different, and yet appears the same on the surface, hence why I consider it to be a total mangling of her character.
**I\'m not claiming there aren\'t ways to explain it, I\'m just saying that, as soon as you apply them, she ceases to be FSN Sakura and becomes a different character entirely. In particular, invoking \
*Look, you\'re entirely missing the point here. I\'m not saying psychological or physical abuse isn\'t bad, I\'m just saying that what Sakura seems to have gone through in the manga (Shinji beating her occasionally and maybe some abusive treatment from Byakuya) is several levels below what she went through in the game, and there\'s simply no way that that wouldn\'t have altered her. Hell, both Rin and Shirou *knew* she was being beaten at home, and they did nothing about it because they didn\'t consider it serious enough to make a huge fuss over it when she was always defending Shinji. But, even if you assume it wouldn\'t affect her personality, you\'re missing the bigger problem. In FSN, Zouken has the ability to torture and control Sakura at his whim. Therefore, she *can\'t* fight against him, and when he orders her to summon Rider, she has no option. She\'s not an ExtremeDoormat because she stands up to him as best as she can in the circumstances. Yes, the abuse causes her to be more inclined towards obeying him, but the whole point of Sakura\'s character is that even after going through all that, she is *still* not broken. When it comes down to it, she is able to refuse his orders, and once she gets the power to defeat him (as Dark Sakura) she actually takes the opportunity (eventually, anyway). If he didn\'t have the worms to control her, she would have told him where to stick his war. In the manga, the only power anyone has over her is psychological, and Byakuya (her trainer) is dead. Plus, unless he\'s *really* incompetent, she should be a better magus here, since he\'s actually taught her magic rather than simply throwing her into a basement full of worms. Whilst she may well feel sympathy for Shinji, there\'s no way in hell she\'d summon a servant so that he could fight in a battle to the death against the guy she loves. FSN Sakura is *far* too strong to be bullied into it in a scenario like the one she is in in the manga, so for manga Sakura to be bullied into it, she has to be a *much* weaker person. There is no doubt in my mind that if you took the FSN Sakura (as she was at age 4) and put her through the manga timeline, you would not get manga Sakura out at the end. And, for that matter, if you took FSN Sakura as she was at *15* and put her into the manga situation (prior to the summoning of Rider) she would simply not have fought. So, manga Sakura cannot possibly be seen as the same person as FSN Sakura. She\'s totally different, and yet appears the same on the surface, hence why I consider it to be a total mangling of her character.
**I\'m not claiming there aren\'t ways to explain it, I\'m just saying that, as soon as you apply them, she ceases to be FSN Sakura and becomes a different character entirely. In particular, invoking \
to:
*Well, with Kohaku, there is certainly a certain amount of comparison between them. However, amongst English-speaking game players, Kohaku seems to have a \\\'\\\'lot\\\'\\\' fewer haters, even though she\\\'s undoubtedly more to blame for the bad things that happen than Sakura is.
*Look, you\\\'re entirely missing the point here. I\\\'m not saying psychological or physical abuse isn\\\'t bad, I\\\'m just saying that what Sakura seems to have gone through in the manga (Shinji beating her occasionally and maybe some abusive treatment from Byakuya) is several levels below what she went through in the game, and there\\\'s simply no way that that wouldn\\\'t have altered her. Hell, both Rin and Shirou \\\'\\\'knew\\\'\\\' she was being beaten at home, and they did nothing about it because they didn\\\'t consider it serious enough to make a huge fuss over it when she was always defending Shinji. But, even if you assume it wouldn\\\'t affect her personality, you\\\'re missing the bigger problem. In FSN, Zouken has the ability to torture and control Sakura at his whim. Therefore, she \\\'\\\'can\\\'t\\\'\\\' fight against him, and when he orders her to summon Rider, she has no option. She\\\'s not an ExtremeDoormat because she stands up to him as best as she can in the circumstances. Yes, the abuse causes her to be more inclined towards obeying him, but the whole point of Sakura\\\'s character is that even after going through all that, she is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' not broken. When it comes down to it, she is able to refuse his orders, and once she gets the power to defeat him (as Dark Sakura) she actually takes the opportunity (eventually, anyway). If he didn\\\'t have the worms to control her, she would have told him where to stick his war. In the manga, the only power anyone has over her is psychological, and Byakuya (her trainer) is dead. Plus, unless he\\\'s \\\'\\\'really\\\'\\\' incompetent, she should be a better magus here, since he\\\'s actually taught her magic rather than simply throwing her into a basement full of worms. Whilst she may well feel sympathy for Shinji, there\\\'s no way in hell she\\\'d summon a servant so that he could fight in a battle to the death against the guy she loves. FSN Sakura is \\\'\\\'far\\\'\\\' too strong to be bullied into it in a scenario like the one she is in in the manga, so for manga Sakura to be bullied into it, she has to be a *much* weaker person. There is no doubt in my mind that if you took the FSN Sakura (as she was at age 4) and put her through the manga timeline, you would not get manga Sakura out at the end. And, for that matter, if you took FSN Sakura as she was at \\\'\\\'15\\\'\\\' and put her into the manga situation (prior to the summoning of Rider) she would simply not have fought. So, manga Sakura cannot possibly be seen as the same person as FSN Sakura. She\\\'s totally different, and yet appears the same on the surface, hence why I consider it to be a total mangling of her character.
**I\\\'m not claiming there aren\\\'t ways to explain it, I\\\'m just saying that, as soon as you apply them, she ceases to be FSN Sakura and becomes a different character entirely. In particular, invoking \\\"well, she\\\'s wearing purple contact lenses and dyeing her hair purple\\\" (even though I\\\'m pretty sure that\\\'s against the rules in almost every school in Japan) just smacks of \\\"well, we\\\'ve changed her backstory and her appearance now makes no sense, so lets make up some bullshit about her wearing contact lenses\\\". What I\\\'m doing is saying \\\"they\\\'ve made a mess of her character, so I don\\\'t like the manga\\\". What you\\\'re doing is saying \\\"I like the manga, so I\\\'m going to attempt to patch their botched characterisation of Sakura with fanon Deus Ex Machinas like having her dye her hair purple for no apparent reason\\\".
**The problem is that Fate/Zero is part of the backstory to FSN. If you change that, then you change the past. In particular, Kariya is responsible for Rin not having a mother. Plus, if Zouken wasn\\\'t there, he\\\'d still have been at the Matou house, and in any case if he knew Sakura was being abused, he\\\'d have just walked out of the house with her (since there is no-one to stop him) rather than fighting in the war (which he couldn\\\'t do without Zouken \\\'\\\'anyway\\\'\\\'). If you want to claim that the manga is in an alternate continuity (starting eleven years before, at least) from the game and anime then, fine, you\\\'re welcome to take that position. But, all you\\\'re doing is proving my point. If it\\\'s an alternate continuity, then they\\\'re \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' the same characters (except Saber, I suppose), they\\\'re just chracters that have been [[ContrivedCoincidence contrived]] to look and act the same as their FSN counterparts even though their pasts are different. That\\\'s just bad writing, IMO.
*Look, you\\\'re entirely missing the point here. I\\\'m not saying psychological or physical abuse isn\\\'t bad, I\\\'m just saying that what Sakura seems to have gone through in the manga (Shinji beating her occasionally and maybe some abusive treatment from Byakuya) is several levels below what she went through in the game, and there\\\'s simply no way that that wouldn\\\'t have altered her. Hell, both Rin and Shirou \\\'\\\'knew\\\'\\\' she was being beaten at home, and they did nothing about it because they didn\\\'t consider it serious enough to make a huge fuss over it when she was always defending Shinji. But, even if you assume it wouldn\\\'t affect her personality, you\\\'re missing the bigger problem. In FSN, Zouken has the ability to torture and control Sakura at his whim. Therefore, she \\\'\\\'can\\\'t\\\'\\\' fight against him, and when he orders her to summon Rider, she has no option. She\\\'s not an ExtremeDoormat because she stands up to him as best as she can in the circumstances. Yes, the abuse causes her to be more inclined towards obeying him, but the whole point of Sakura\\\'s character is that even after going through all that, she is \\\'\\\'still\\\'\\\' not broken. When it comes down to it, she is able to refuse his orders, and once she gets the power to defeat him (as Dark Sakura) she actually takes the opportunity (eventually, anyway). If he didn\\\'t have the worms to control her, she would have told him where to stick his war. In the manga, the only power anyone has over her is psychological, and Byakuya (her trainer) is dead. Plus, unless he\\\'s \\\'\\\'really\\\'\\\' incompetent, she should be a better magus here, since he\\\'s actually taught her magic rather than simply throwing her into a basement full of worms. Whilst she may well feel sympathy for Shinji, there\\\'s no way in hell she\\\'d summon a servant so that he could fight in a battle to the death against the guy she loves. FSN Sakura is \\\'\\\'far\\\'\\\' too strong to be bullied into it in a scenario like the one she is in in the manga, so for manga Sakura to be bullied into it, she has to be a *much* weaker person. There is no doubt in my mind that if you took the FSN Sakura (as she was at age 4) and put her through the manga timeline, you would not get manga Sakura out at the end. And, for that matter, if you took FSN Sakura as she was at \\\'\\\'15\\\'\\\' and put her into the manga situation (prior to the summoning of Rider) she would simply not have fought. So, manga Sakura cannot possibly be seen as the same person as FSN Sakura. She\\\'s totally different, and yet appears the same on the surface, hence why I consider it to be a total mangling of her character.
**I\\\'m not claiming there aren\\\'t ways to explain it, I\\\'m just saying that, as soon as you apply them, she ceases to be FSN Sakura and becomes a different character entirely. In particular, invoking \\\"well, she\\\'s wearing purple contact lenses and dyeing her hair purple\\\" (even though I\\\'m pretty sure that\\\'s against the rules in almost every school in Japan) just smacks of \\\"well, we\\\'ve changed her backstory and her appearance now makes no sense, so lets make up some bullshit about her wearing contact lenses\\\". What I\\\'m doing is saying \\\"they\\\'ve made a mess of her character, so I don\\\'t like the manga\\\". What you\\\'re doing is saying \\\"I like the manga, so I\\\'m going to attempt to patch their botched characterisation of Sakura with fanon Deus Ex Machinas like having her dye her hair purple for no apparent reason\\\".
**The problem is that Fate/Zero is part of the backstory to FSN. If you change that, then you change the past. In particular, Kariya is responsible for Rin not having a mother. Plus, if Zouken wasn\\\'t there, he\\\'d still have been at the Matou house, and in any case if he knew Sakura was being abused, he\\\'d have just walked out of the house with her (since there is no-one to stop him) rather than fighting in the war (which he couldn\\\'t do without Zouken \\\'\\\'anyway\\\'\\\'). If you want to claim that the manga is in an alternate continuity (starting eleven years before, at least) from the game and anime then, fine, you\\\'re welcome to take that position. But, all you\\\'re doing is proving my point. If it\\\'s an alternate continuity, then they\\\'re \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' the same characters (except Saber, I suppose), they\\\'re just chracters that have been [[ContrivedCoincidence contrived]] to look and act the same as their FSN counterparts even though their pasts are different. That\\\'s just bad writing, IMO.
Changed line(s) 11 from:
n
**I\'m not claiming there aren\'t ways to explain it, I\'m just saying that, as soon as you apply them, she ceases to be FSN Sakura and becomes a different character entirely. In particular, invoking \
to:
**I\\\'m not claiming there aren\\\'t ways to explain it, I\\\'m just saying that, as soon as you apply them, she ceases to be FSN Sakura and becomes a different character entirely. In particular, invoking \\\"well, she\\\'s wearing purple contact lenses and dyeing her hair purple\\\" (even though I\\\'m pretty sure that\\\'s against the rules in almost every school in Japan) just smacks of \\\"well, we\\\'ve changed her backstory and her appearance now makes no sense, so lets make up some bullshit about her wearing contact lenses\\\". What I\\\'m doing is saying \\\"they\\\'ve made a mess of her character, so I don\\\'t like the manga\\\". What you\\\'re doing is saying \\\"I like the manga, so I\\\'m going to attempt to patch their botched characterisation of Sakura with fanon Deus Ex Machinas like having her dye her hair purple for no apparent reason\\\".
**The problem is that Fate/Zero is part of the backstory to FSN. If you change that, then you change the past. In particular, Kariya is responsible for Rin not having a mother. Plus, if Zouken wasn\\\'t there, he\\\'d still have been at the Matou house, and in any case if he knew Sakura was being abused, he\\\'d have just walked out of the house with her (since there is no-one to stop him) rather than fighting in the war (which he couldn\\\'t do without Zouken *anyway*). If you want to claim that the manga is in an alternate continuity (starting eleven years before, at least) from the game and anime then, fine, you\\\'re welcome to take that position. But, all you\\\'re doing is proving my point. If it\\\'s an alternate continuity, then they\\\'re *not* the same characters (except Saber, I suppose), they\\\'re just chracters that have been [[ContrivedCoincidence contrived]] to look and act the same as their FSN counterparts even though their pasts are different. That\\\'s just bad writing, IMO.
**The problem is that Fate/Zero is part of the backstory to FSN. If you change that, then you change the past. In particular, Kariya is responsible for Rin not having a mother. Plus, if Zouken wasn\\\'t there, he\\\'d still have been at the Matou house, and in any case if he knew Sakura was being abused, he\\\'d have just walked out of the house with her (since there is no-one to stop him) rather than fighting in the war (which he couldn\\\'t do without Zouken *anyway*). If you want to claim that the manga is in an alternate continuity (starting eleven years before, at least) from the game and anime then, fine, you\\\'re welcome to take that position. But, all you\\\'re doing is proving my point. If it\\\'s an alternate continuity, then they\\\'re *not* the same characters (except Saber, I suppose), they\\\'re just chracters that have been [[ContrivedCoincidence contrived]] to look and act the same as their FSN counterparts even though their pasts are different. That\\\'s just bad writing, IMO.
