humans are bastards, at least to me

Humanity has the capacity for both immense compassion and immense disservice to our own humanity.

Due to inherent human selfishness (not bastardliness), we are predispositioned towards bastardliness, but we being creatures of sapience and not wholly instinctual, this predisposition is often ignored as well.

The only thing predictable about humanity is our unpredictability. So, yes, concrete generalizations are very difficult. I can say what is my personal belief on the subject, based on various observations, but I cannot cite it as sociological fact.

~shrug~

I'm a bastard?

Ok.

I don't know, mailedbypostman. Are you?

The chances of bastardliness on the part of humans decreases proportionally to the number of people involved. Law of averages and such...

I agree with it being kind of dumb to call humanity bastards when you don't have anything to compare to. Maybe its "Sapient/Sentient life is bastardly"

Well, there are animals, I guess.

^And for many animals, stuff like eating your own kids is perfectly normal.

So by any comparative metric available, humans are paragons of saintly goodness.

How?

Firstly, a comparative is useless. Your run of the mill serial killer is better than Stalin, Hitler, and Mao, but he's still deserving of a bullet to the head anyhow.

Being a saint by comparison does not make one a saint.

Secondly, most animals don't get a choice in the matter, what with instinct and such.

Humans not only organize our murder, we make it profitable.

When was the last time animals fought a war of aggression with the capacity for morality to distinguish right and wrong?

Well certain types of ants wage war and use other ant colonies as their slaves...

Chimps, dude. There was also a pair of serial killer chimps that stole and ate baby chimps and knew enough to cover their tracks really well.

Also...

edited 1st Nov '11 7:19:45 AM by Katrika

Dolphins kill other animals for fun and will prevent female dolphins from feeding until they put out. Lions will kill cubs so that the mom will go back into heat. Slavemaker ants do exactly what you think they do.

And it's a bit hypocritical to excuse their behavior as "instinct" and then insist that bastardry is "human nature".

Right.

'When was the last time animals fought a war of aggression with the capacity for morality to distinguish right and wrong? ' is a useless question if you're going to reply that animals don't have the capacity for morality to distinguish right and wrong.

If you, as a human, are able to call yourself (or others) out on being bastards, then that proves that you're not predisposed to evil; a truly "evil" being would see no problem with killing and other assorted crimes, and thus would always see themselves as "in the right".

The fact that most humans are able to tell "right" from "wrong" alone proves that humans as a whole are jim dandy,and that the people making these annoying, over-generalized statements need to quit being so ridiculous.

edited 1st Nov '11 11:00:59 AM by DisasterGrind

I never did say humans were bastards by nature. Quite the opposite.

We are selfish by nature.

All those animals are largely working on instinct. Even dolphins—instinctual seeking of pleasure—and apes—intelligence used to meet instinctual needs more efficiently.

Humans do both, but with comprehensive knowedge that there can be such things as "right" and "wrong."

Humans are instintual with the capacity to ignore superficial aspects of our nature. That is what makes us dangerous. Whether we act on this capacity is situational and varies from person to person.

edited 1st Nov '11 1:26:26 PM by USAF721

Everything is selfish by nature. Even acts of altruism can be considered 'selfish', because people feel good for going it, when of course it'd only be selfless if being kind made you feel like you were drinking tea sweetened with ground glass, right?

(wrong.)

Selfishness is not inherently bad. Wanting to feel good isn't bad. Feeling good for helping people isn't bad. Wanting to get paid when you do a job isn't bad.

edited 1st Nov '11 1:37:07 PM by Katrika

Er... no.

~checks clothing for straw~

As I said, people can and do ignore their nature. However, humans are gifted with sapience, and yet not with rationality. Thus, we consider the short-term, material gains of selfishness better than the long-term, often non-material gains of altruism, on average, even when the later is usually better for us.

We're impatient and predisposed to going for the selfish, easy option. Most people go with this disposition. Some don't. Net gain is in the selfishness department, however.

Edit: no, there's nothing wrong with those things, if you're not hurting anyone.

edited 1st Nov '11 1:40:43 PM by USAF721

But all selfishness means is inclined to do things for a reward - including the reward of doing good things to feel good.

You don't honestly think that theory lasts five seconds in reality, do you?

In reality, people fuck each other for those rewards, because they can. Ignore that you'd get farther working together.

@Katrika: Why I give you the award? Because you are first person besides me who has thought about "Doing good deeds to feel good is selfish" thing I've met ;-;

You get bigger short term rewards by being an ass, but you're still getting big long term rewards for being good. Not all rewards are tangible. Basically, I'm using 'selfish' in a sociological term, which extends it to it's logical conclusion, while you're meaning it in the sense of 'but it's only selfish when it's bad!!'

Selfish altruism is a recognized phenomenon.

It's also evolutionarily supported.

But I guess those articles weren't written in reality~

edited 1st Nov '11 1:59:54 PM by Katrika

For the record, USAF, I was talking to the OP. I feel that the whole "humans are bastards" argument is stupid, especially when the person making the argument speaks as though they aren't a human, or somehow exempt from their own condemnation.

Such is the connotation of the term "selfishness." If you were talking about self-interest, then yes, your argument makes plenty of sense. I don't equate self-interest to selfishness, however, due simply to how language is.

Edit: Oh, sorry.

edited 1st Nov '11 5:23:08 PM by USAF713

In the sense I'm using it, though, self interest = selfishness.

I know it's not the everyday meaning of selfish, but it's the meaning in context.

If you want to keep using the word as such. I don't recognize it to mean what you're using it to mean, however.

Either way, if humans were rational actors who moved towards their self-interest in an intelligent and long-term manner, we wouldn't have all that many problems. Instead, we're irrational short-term thinkers that think screwing over others is worth the risk/benefit ratio even if it actually puts them in a worse position in the long-run.

Nah, we're very situational beings.

I'm SORRY you don't RECOGNIZE how it's used in multiple scientific studies. Oh, and by the way? The dictionary says self interest is a synonym for selfish.

>:T