Series/Supernatural

The really frustrating part is past season 7 are all those different storylines which are set-up, and then getting wasted so that the result is the writers having to do an a... pull in order to bring in a new villain instead of sticking with something for more than five minutes.

Lol Cole.

If the pattern continues the MOL:London will call off the hunt by episode 4.

So, I am now working myself through season 11...and I actually really like this one so far? I don't know, it seems to be more focussed than before, and I really like that someone has remembered that protecting innocents might be a thing Sam and Dean at least should try....either way, if they keep it up this might end up my fav since season 4 and 5, which I liked the most beforehand (I actually don't like the first two seasons all that much, they are mostly kind of a drag with all those filler episodes in them, and there was so much set up in it which never got any pay-off).

After S9 and S10 almost anything would have to be an improvement.

Still, I'm annoyed because... ok, just imagine had the show tossed in any of these lines/ideas:

• "God made worlds, and Amara would destroy them via the leviathan she created to consume everything."
• "God made 4 archangels, so Amara made 4 horsemen to help her fight back. As his oldest and greatest champion was Michael, so her's was Death."

You know... just a bit of smoothing over canon to try and have things make sense rather than forcing Amara's round peg into the plot's square hole.

edited 25th Jun '16 2:26:33 PM by NateWinchester

Considering death is supposed to be capable of reaping god I think he was supposed to be in the same league as god and Amara. Though the leviathan thing would certainly be interesting if it was attribued to her.

The Leviathans were already stated to be the first thing God made.

Then they threatened to eat everything else God made afterwards, so he made purgatory to lock them away.

edited 25th Jun '16 3:06:21 PM by blkwhtrbbt

You're both right, which is what makes this last season so annoying. Actually from his original line, Death was supposed to be the "dark" to God's "light" in SPN's duality universe:

But no, they had to go and invent "god's sister" which very technically does not fit with everything we've been shown and told before and it's even more annoying they didn't put in the work to try and make it fit.

(it also annoyed me that NOBODY DURING THE ENTIRE SEASON mentioned, "we need to kill the Darkness? hey what about that SCYTHE of Death's? would that do it?")

edited 25th Jun '16 4:28:28 PM by NateWinchester

Didn't that disappear with Death? If Death is no more, then his power wouldn't be in his scythe anymore either, would it?

Setting aside the paradox in "can Death make a weapon so deadly it kills him" (like "can God make a rock too big for Him to lift" - also that his power was shown to be in his ring) as well as the poor shot framing, composition, and storytelling in the scythe's disintegration, it still doesn't alleviate that NOBODY ever brought it up. Like oh say... Crowley who had it once and gave it to Dean for use - especially when they're trying to think up solutions to the Darkness TM.

Still think that season 7 was the worst...an I would be glad if Leviathans are never mentioned again. Let's just pretend that those things never existed....

Are we also pretending Adam never existed too?

Nah, man canon is canon.

Different circumstances.

Definitely two different things and leviathan seem I little odd with their original origin. considering how they work it would make more sense that they be a made by Amara and just retcon the mention of them being made by god by just called the "official storry" .

It's also well established that Amara doesn't make. She destroys and she takes. That's literally what she is.

It's not like there are any significant plot threat left dangling because of the leviathans.

Not like creatures that essentially do what she normally does counts as much of a creation and it's not exactly hard to explain why she would not count them as something she made. Even easier if anyone else didn't considering she is not talked about to begin with.

Anyway, I'm sorry but S9 was the WORST season ever. Whatever else you can say about S7, at least it hung together logically and plot-wise and didn't contradict established canon and it made sense (assuming the two seasons aren't the same)

Which is why Leviathan would fit even better because they were just all-consuming mouths, seemingly unable to create for themselves as well (instead needing humans with "sparks" like Charlie - ok yes, that is one stretching retcon that caused a logic hiccup in S7),

Actually there are now because of Amara. It was said God locked her away with the help of the archangels. But in S7 it was said that the Leviathan are older than angels. Which means they should know of Amara. So in the whole God-Amara-Archangels setup in the very beginning of the universe, Leviathan and Death should fit somewhere in there.

Given that the Levis "true forms" is a black ooze and "Rabids" in S11 were shown as having black blood oozing from their bodies... it's a bigger question of why not? Why not tie everything together and show the audience you do, in fact, watch your own show?

And yes, canon is canon. It's one thing to pretend say... the antichrist never existed - that was only one episode with no other impact. The Leviathan WERE AN ENTIRE SEASON. You don't just ignore and dismiss that stuff without sending a signal to the audience that this is no longer a living, breathing world but just a playground for hack writers who will do whatever the hell they feel like, logic be damned. Sorry, but I don't come to Supernatural to watch people masturbate.

edited 27th Jun '16 7:35:33 AM by NateWinchester

Amara didn't make the Leviathans because Amara doesn't make. It doesn't matter if symbolically the two are similar, she didn't make them.

Perhaps God's earliest creation so happened to resemble Amara because Amara was the only thing he knew at the time?

THERE WAS NO AMARA ORIGINALLY. Death was originally the Yin to God's Yang.

But they already broke canon shoehorning her into the world all I'm saying is it would have been better had they taken the steps TO BREAK LESS.

Like, instead of "Amara doesn't create" have the contrast be "Chuck creates life, Amara creates death." Then at least most of the B.S. of the season would have been much easier to swallow.

how? That would literally do no service to the plot, and would still invalidate the idea that Death is as old as god.

I feel like that was always just Death being boastful.

Death never really worked as Yin to God's Yang because Death didn't destroy. He just moved souls around, which apparently are eternal unless they actually do get destroyed. Who knows what happened to those who actually do end up in the void, but the reapers are actually not supposed to fling souls there, which makes Death only another part of the complicated balance of the world.

Anyway, season 9 was frustrating because it had so many good ideas they never really followed up on, but when it was good, it was really good. Season 7 was just an annoying slog for me.

Anyone else hoping Death isn't actually gone?

Very much so. It's one retcon I wouldn't mind because the death was so poorly executed.

It would do all kinds of service to the plot. It would better paint the family rivalry between the two as well as round the corners of the plot contrivance

Yeah, because it's not like Death ever demonstrated vast powers like... walking into the Cage and getting someone out, or cause an eclipse on demand. Or... actually we've seen him act more God-like than Amara.

and Amara never did either. Heck in 11.18 we see her release a big fart cloud into heaven and it doesn't even scuff the paint, much less "destroy" a single angel. In 5.21 we at least saw a pile of bodies around Death.

But if that's just "shuffling souls around", the Samuel Colt is more the Yin to God's Yang by that standard than anybody on the show (because what he made actually seems to obliterate things).

When was it good? S6 sure I would agree with the above but not S9.

edited 27th Jun '16 1:29:06 PM by NateWinchester

I think eating all those souls was very destructive.

Let's see, season nine...I actually liked most of Cas' arc in this season (honestly, I wish they had focussed the whole season on the different warring fractions of the angles, after doing a better job with the vessel question), and I loved the idea that souls are trapped in the veil and can't move on forward (though, again, they sadly didn't do much which it).

Except as I pointed out what Castiel's "arc" was in S9 was the same as it was in S7 except for the mortal bits at the beginning of the season which they then went on to wipe away because heaven help us if we do something interesting with the character.

Yeah...

Until they can.