Series/Supernatural

Hah, I get you, it's hard to be too upset at first loves. I've been watching since episode 2 and during some major life transitions so I'll probably be with the show to the end.

Oh yeah I totally forgot Wo S had an Abaddon in there. lol

One Year Gone I think they wanted to make canon but then it had Leviathan mentioned in there along with "princes of Hell" so that's been jossed. So far the only tie-in still rock solid in canon would be SPN:Origins (the comic) which had a Mot W from it appear later in S3.

No kidding! That and the fact that both brothers let Crowley live after killing Abaddon and while he was paralyzed & trapped in front of them made me just give up on S9◊. Geez that was a Po S.

well there is certain page that explain the whole dean=bisexual thing, like this http://rebloggy.com/post/on-season-8-s-build-up-to-dean-being-openly-bisexual/42519217780

i have not problem with him been bi, but i`m worring if this is less "i want a chararter being bi and dean is a logical choice" and more "yes, know destiel is canon!" and i dont know a lot of bisexual, but the fact that castiel try...you know, become GOD is a pretty dealbreaker no?(but there is draco in latter pants....)

i dont know, given the fandom track record about the chararters, if the make him bi but didint ship him with castiel, there WILL be blood....

anyway, i need to ask this, for you tropers what villian of the show is your favorite? my is zacariah, his smug snake personality is just great for the show(and maybe i the actor who manage to make sucha chararter charming) and then is crowling, that magnificent scotish bastard is awsome(to be alive after all this time is impresive)

Azazel remains pretty epic all things considered.

I also liked the Trickster and Leprechaun although those were more anti-heroes than villains.

Nice gif, Nate. I wish this show would put itself out of its misery...

At the end of it all, the season was pretty disappointing.

• Dean just lurched between ways of being an asshole
• Sam wasn't allowed to do anything despite being right more often than not
• Castiel improved on the whole, but I found his constant pop culture awareness mildly annoying
• Crowley is an exhausted character, and I'll get back to this in a moment
• Abbadon, being a female arc villain, wasn't allowed to do shit, and I'll get back to this too
• Metatron, despite being Genre Savvy and knowing the ending, conveniently forgets the ending somehow, and though I appreciate the different direction, in the end he was little more than a smarmy annoyance
• Gadreel grew on me quite a bit
• Hanna seemed fine
• So is Tessa a reaper or angel or what? This season really disliked canon, didn't it?
• The angel factions were a retread, and I'll get back to that in a moment as well

Okay, it's no secret that the seasons 6-9 haven't been as good as the original 5 in my opinion, and I daresay the opinion of many other fans. I think they still could've worked, if only they'd been handled more cohesively, and less according to formula^note brothers are separated at the start of the season, get reunited, have trust issues, make a deal/spell that will cost them at the end of the season, lose an ally, kill one of the season's two threats while the other bleeds over to the next season, get separated, rinse, repeat. My plan would've had similar events handled more succinctly, as follows:

• Season 6: With Michael and Lucifer gone, there are wars for leadership in Heaven and Hell. The brothers naturally back Castiel in Heaven, while Hell is up for grabs between Crowley and Abbadon. Death brings Sam out of the cage as a freebie, and gives the whole "it has been an honor" speech. Sam, resonating with Archangel power that he was beaten over the head with, helps Castiel find holy weapons that we actually see used (nerfing overall angel power and making all the "kill everything" angel blades less meaningful). Dean and Kevin look for a way to stop the demons collecting on their deals in their civil war, and discover the Men of Letters legacy. Season ends with Crowley taking the lead of Hell, and Castiel attempting to use Metatron to help him take over heaven. Metatron pulls his gambit.
• Season 7: Metatron's gambit. That and the Gadreel stuff remain unchanged. This is where Cas learns humility and humanity. Crowley, seeing angels intruding on earth and more power in Heaven, attempts to tap into the Purgatory souls to make himself more powerful. Collects Alphas for that purpose. Metatron's plan is foiled by Crowley's plan succeeding. The line between Hell and Purgatory is broken, but doing so frees something outside of what Metatron transcribed from God: Eve, the Mother of All. Here, Eve would be approximately equal to God and Death, and represent chaos or change, perversion of the distinct life and death that the other two represent.
• Season 8: Heaven and Hell are both leaderless after Eve effortlessly kills Crowley. The brothers fight Alphas, and the more perfect creation Wombocombos Leviathan, but cannot beat Eve, as Death confirms. Instead, they can only seal off Purgatory again, or attempt to. Meg, seeing Hell in Chaos, researches to find a leader, just like her father Azazel did, and discovers a way to bring the return of Abbadon.

I dunno, I'm losing steam trying to integrate it all at 2am, but my eventual goal would be to have the brothers finally close off or narrow the revolving doors of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. Death would eventually take charge of Hell and run it respectably, God would return eventually if still passively, and Eve would keep Purgatory. I also forgot that Bobby would have to die at some point.

i dont know, i see that you are using the seasion backwards, but i have miss a lot of the show after the leviathans, so i have to kept track again

also, azazel seen...so out of place after luficer, he is more like a general doing his own stuff, most likey because the whole luficer bit as add later but it make the first season and early instanment weirdness from me, i saw the 2 season when the show grows the beard

and what is the deal with the tricksker, i though it was gabriel hiding

I finally read through the entirety of this forum, so I now have a good grasp on how everyone feels about certain aspects of the show.

One question: why the hate for season six? I'm astonished that everyone blasted the quick introduction and defeat of Eve only to praise the writers for doing the same exact thing with Castiel-as-god.

Season seven was certainly more streamlined, but it was also fairly formulaic and pandering. At least with season six there was some attempt made are expanding the universe in a meaningful and organic way.

I'm working on a compare/contrast of S6 & 7 on my blog. In retrospect I think the show maybe should have gone anthology after S5 with new hunters coming in ever 2-5 years and running new stories. If they try and do it now... not so sure it would work.

Part of the villain contrast is that they gave Eve some build up (with references throughout the earlier part of the season) while Godstiel appeared out of nowhere. An abrupt end to a build up is a lot harder to accept compared to one for an abrupt beginning.

There's other factors but I'm going to save those for a post.

I wouldn't say that Castiel-as-god came completely out of nowhere. It was a subtle development based off realizing that his character needed to progress somewhere, rather than just playing support (as he ended up doing season seven on).

The quick dispatch of Eve is a real shame, sure, considering the build-up, but she is still a great example of Bait-and-Switch Boss with Castiel serving as True Final Boss. *Tropes Are Not Bad*

They *had* to focus on Eve so as not to make Castiel's turn completely predictable. The writers were actively working to subvert expectations, which only made the fans angry. Now they don't even bother. Everything is predictable.

edited 7th Jun '14 10:37:53 PM by HeightOfTheSun

Part of the difference was that Eve was female, and the show hasn't had a great track record with female big bads. Also, it was the height of the shafting of traditional monsters in favor of everything being about angels and demons. Then she was discounted within the show itself by a Leviathan, despite the fact that she should have had an overall greater impact than any one of them. There's more, but it's once again 2(30)am and I'm tired.

Hmm... some further thoughts on how I might change up seasons 6+... Maybe the Alpha Vampire, as he's being captured by Crowley, does some inception and makes the boys think they need to summon "God" as the mess has gotten too big for them. He leaves clues, but that actually performs a ritual to summon Eve, his own "god", hence why Metatron would be unaware of that scheming. Also, regarding the 5 things the Colt can't kill, maybe they could be spelled out: Eternals (God, Death, Eve), Champions (Archangels for God, Horsemen and Knights of Hell for Death, and Jefferson Starships / Wombocombos / Leviathan for Eve), and then maybe the three others (or one other, if you split the Champions into three groups) are things that don't come to Earth, since it's a big cosmos.

edited 8th Jun '14 7:17:31 AM by wanderlustwarrior

I always assumed the 5 things it couldn't kill were the archangels we've seen in the show (Raphael, Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer), and Death. I don't know if that would mean that God is vulnerable to it or is automatically assumed invulnerable to everything and therefore left off the list, but whatever.

I don't buy that, because it still implies you could kill a Horseman, or something known to be more powerful than enhanced Castiel.

Crowley's whole speech about subverting expectations led to the exact same cliffhanger type we have gotten used to, and even the exact same one as season 3.

Maybe Lucifer pulled that number out of his ass. He is Lucifer after all.

And I'd say being sent to Hell and becoming a demon are fairly different, if only by a matter of time.

"You're gonna die, Dean! And this is what you're gonna become!"

Didn't Lucifer have that whole thing about not lying to people other than himself? At least, he said he wouldn't lie to Sam (which could easily be a lie), and he told relatively few, but some From a Certain Point of View.

I prefer leaving "5 types" mysterious. (def not Jeff Starships though, how could they not be killed by the Colt while being wiped out en masse by a lesser angel & some demons?)

Though Leviathans could get a pass since being "the oldest" there could be an excuse that Lucifer didn't know about them.

In some ways I wish they had reversed Leviathans & Eve. It would have been more suspenseful having struggled against them all season then to learn at the end that 1 of them had "rebelled" long ago against Dick (their leader) and consorted with humans (to make the "abominations"). Without Dick will she try for the leadership role? Will other Leviathans try copying her style and go off reservation in creating stuff? You could do a lot with that.

I'd have just solved that by making the Starships and Leviathan the same thing (and obviously dropping the Starship name. It explains the hodgepodge of powers, keeps things tighter, fits them better on the power scheme, and keeps Eve in charge.

Sorry about messing up the spoiler. I'm still getting used to this site.

In regards to the last few seconds of the finale Has Dean's soul left his body or is it stick in there with the First Blade in the driver's seat?

No clue though from what we saw with Cain, it looks like you do keep some sense of self, so it's prob Dean just now with demon powers.

I'm not keeping it a secret that I'm not nearly as energized about this show as I used to be during season's 3-5. In fact, I may not be the only one, judging by the pace of this thread. 5 months ago was 5 pages ago, and it's been almost 2 months since the last post.

However, this preview does make me glad for "the road so far".

That wasn't a bad promo, but what the hell was with that modern "rock"? That could've been done so much better with some BÖC or Rush or pretty much any classic rock instead of that.

Yeah normally I skip spoilers but this time I've been keeping an eye on them just to see if S10 will be more or less fail.

Remind me. How badly did the Angels get nerfed by the Fall?

Cos I was surprised when that mob overpowered that one Angel in the season 9 finale with a mere brick.

Boy, we were in season 9. We are way past the point of looking for consistency in "monsters".

That.

HOWEVER, had the creators remembered canon then they would have remembered that angels, once cut off from Heaven, slowly are depowered and become "mortal".

Also, something I realized during my rewatch of S7. The Amazon cycle is listed as every 2 years. Which means this last season is when we should have seen Dean run into his baby momma.

Slowly but surely making my way through Season 1 at the moment. I've decided that I'm Sam but would like to be Dean.

I remember that feeling, you will come to regret it.