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Or language extinction or whatever your preferred term. Is it a good thing? Does it help us work towards instating a universal language? Should we have a universal language? Is death of an obscure language inevitable? How much resources should go towards preserving a given language? What can we get out of preserving a language?

It doesn't look like we had this thread, and I figure it's worth talking about. Especially since I might end up dealing with it in my career years from now.

Wikipedia link.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#51: May 31st 2020 at 2:17:17 PM

To play Devil's Advocate, Spanish doesn't really lend itself to gender neutral terms, the most you can get are terms like "humanity" and those can't be used as often without breaking the flow of the language.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#52: May 31st 2020 at 2:34:47 PM

That's one of the reasons why games like Undertale will probably never get a Spanish translation: The fact the player character doesn't had a stated gender is very important plot-wise, according with Word of God, and that's one of the reasons the only authorized translations are from languages which allow gender-neutral writing.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#53: May 31st 2020 at 2:37:03 PM

That just strikes me as a very stupid reason to not allow a translation, if not ironically kinda racist.

Thought I don't know, the whole thing of the Undertale MC is that is deliberately a character blank?

Edited by KazuyaProta on May 31st 2020 at 4:38:50 AM

Watch me destroying my country
RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
Figure of Hourai
#54: May 31st 2020 at 2:42:31 PM

It would be an instant giveaway that the name you choose at the beginning might not match the character that you're actually controlling if gendered pronouns have to be used. Then you just get in an odd position with the ghosts.

Though it seems bizarre to say it's racist to not allow an official translation because the language would require rewriting the story to fit.

Edited by RainehDaze on May 31st 2020 at 10:46:36 AM

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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#55: May 31st 2020 at 2:42:42 PM

The gender binary is hardcoded into the romance languages as a whole, every single noun is gendered M/F with no exceptions. I've seen some brazilian activists try to be more inclusive by using pronouns like "Elxs", but those only work in text format and in general an average person off the street is going to have a hard time wrapping their head around the concept.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#56: May 31st 2020 at 2:46:15 PM

Even if you want to include non-binaries, you get things like "Ladies, Gentlemen and others" or "Guys, gals and the rest", which honestly sounds like out of a 90's or early 00's comedy sketch.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#57: May 31st 2020 at 3:30:00 PM

I'll just crosspost this in here (this is a great blog to follow for this thread, by the way).

Lexicon Valley has a Covid-themed episode on language (it is the top one right now).

Some topics:

  • The idea that Japanese are less susceptible to the virus because their language is less aspirated (which does not seem to be true, see Spanish and French for example).
  • Where the word "isolation" comes from, and how it evolved from "insula" (and of course people complained that "isolation" was a fake word and would never catch on at some point).
  • William Henry Pinkney Phyfe's book (deep breath) 18,000 words often mispronounced: a complete hand-book of difficulties in English pronunciation, including an unusually large number of proper names, words and phrases from foreign languages. (Notice the ludicrous implication that you, the reader, are pronouncing 18,000 words wrong.) This is a dictionary of words Phyfe deems often "mispronounced", and he gives you the "correct" pronunciation, of course more often than not ending up saying words in ways that no one really says them at all. It is pretty amusing, provided you can read phonetics. This is basically the worst kind of prescriptive linguistics.
  • Why we prefer saying "corona" instead of "covid", and why the backshift from "the coronavirus" to "corona" is inevitable in the same way that no one says "pizza pie" any more. It is also very likely that the common meaning of coronavirus will narrow to refer to this virus specifically. This is the same process that narrowed the meaning of "reduce", which originally could mean either getting smaller or bigger (because you would reduce something to its original size).
  • The etymology of "virtual", which turns out to be pretty strange. The meaning narrowed from "manly" to "having an effect" to "having a special effect, an illusion".

Optimism is a duty.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#58: May 31st 2020 at 4:32:46 PM

Whoooaaa duuuuude: Why we stretch words in tweets and texts: When you elongate words, you're actually loading them with a whooooole lot of meaning.

The article goes into the analysis of elongating words on Twitter, with some nice variation diagram for various words and syllables. It also touches briefly on the importance of this knowledge for AI, which currently does not know how to handle this type of words.

Optimism is a duty.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#59: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:25:29 PM

Open question, how many of you encountered another language while you were a kid or teen thanks to a videogame? While English is something I often stumbled upon in most games of the PSX era, the Medal of Honor series is where I had my first brush with German.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#60: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:30:13 PM

Written or just spoken?

Well, mt first contact with a kot of languages was through...I dunno if King of Fighters or Tekken, one of them had every character speak in their native language.

I do distinctly remember it being the first time I ever listened to spoken Korean.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#61: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:32:58 PM

Spoken, and hearing it again I can tell it was actually good German and not the hysterical variant you would expect to hear in a less serious WWII videogame.

Edited by raziel365 on Jun 7th 2020 at 8:33:11 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#62: Jun 7th 2020 at 8:53:10 PM

English for me. It's hard to say which was first, but it probably was something like Dune, Grand Theft Auto, The Incredible Machine, stuff like that.

Optimism is a duty.
Millership from Kazakhstan Since: Jan, 2014
#63: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:17:47 PM

English as well. The first game was probably MK 2 or 3.

Spiral out, keep going.
RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
Figure of Hourai
#64: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:22:11 PM

The first version of Dungeon Keeper 2 I played was in German for whatever reason.

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eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#66: Jun 8th 2020 at 8:03:14 AM

I had my first encounter with French in high school.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#67: Jun 10th 2020 at 6:20:05 AM

Quick grammar question: if you use "they" as a second-person pronoun, like "he/she", are you then supposed to follow it up with "were" or "was"?

Because I was taught that "were" is only used with third-person, but obviously back then "they" wasn't pulling double-duty.

shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
#68: Jun 10th 2020 at 7:07:22 AM

Um, did you make a typo?

  • I was
  • You were
  • He was /She was
  • They were
How is 'were' "only used with third-person"?

In any case language changes over time, so who knows. My first thought was that it should be "they were", but I'm no grammar expert.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#69: Jun 10th 2020 at 7:14:03 AM

Would you believe I forgot about that?

Well, I'm glad I had the good sense of not going for a career in linguistics.

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#70: Jun 10th 2020 at 7:39:14 AM

I'd treat singular "they" just the same as singular "you": use the plural verbal forms that normally go with that pronoun.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#71: Jun 10th 2020 at 7:40:06 AM

I assume what you are asking is whether there should be a singular they, similar to it.

I think "they are/were" is acceptable, unless you insist on trying to change English grammar on a structural level by saying "they is/was". Fair warning, though, these basic elements are generally the slowest and hardest to change in a language, though the Norse certainly managed to do it to English.

So maybe be a Viking and say "they is/was".

Edited by Redmess on Jun 10th 2020 at 5:00:49 PM

Optimism is a duty.
eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#73: Aug 20th 2020 at 2:46:47 PM

A Quiet Death: The Acceptable Loss of Language.

    Article 
One distinctly pervasive, and shockingly permissive, form of genocide is that of cultural genocide—in particular, the extinction of languages, whether actively by force or as a set of passive policies. Over 6,000 languages are spoken today; almost 3,000 of these are classified as endangered on the EGIDS scale. Linguistic genocide whittles away at bits and pieces of society until there is nothing of a people remaining, though they may physically still be there. This has happened and is happening, all over the world, often with support from not just the cultural supremacist right, but self-declared left utilitarian developmentalists as well.

Perhaps the most salient example of linguicide is what historically took place in Australia. On the eve of Invasion by European settlers in 1788, at least 300 languages were spoken across the continent. Today, fewer than twenty are considered stable. This was achieved through not just genocidal policies targeting Indigenous Australians over at least two centuries of violence, but also the breaking up of Indigenous families. The policies that resulted in the Stolen Generation, done with the explicit intent of “breeding the black out” by the Northern Territory “Chief Protector of Aborigines”, saw mixed-race Indigenous children taken from their parents and placed into white families from a young age, separating them from their country, language, and kin. On many missions in the north, where many were forced to flee by the violence, children were explicitly banned from speaking in their native languages to one another.

It takes remarkably little to destroy a language. If you can halt transmission to younger generations of a population, it will simply disappear as its speakers grow old and eventually pass away. Active policies of linguicide can do this through murder, criminalization, or simply taking away the ability to transmit the language. These have been especially common in colonial societies, like Australia and Canada, and done with a justification of cultural superiority and a civilizing mission over the “barbaric” tongues of the natives. But active policies are not the only way to kill a language. Passive policies of linguicide and cultural assimilation are even more common in the 21st century, and regularly flies under the radar of the left, if not supported as a supposedly utilitarian purpose.

As happened in the USSR with the promotion of Russian as a pan-cultural language at the expense of other languages, in recent years China has increasingly pushed the same ideas in the many areas of the country that do not speak Mandarin natively. Nominally, Chinese law protects the use of minority languages in areas of titular ethnic autonomy. This has precluded the use of active measures against minority languages, but this does not prevent passive measures from being introduced, eroding minority languages’ places in public domains, and instituting assimilatory education policies.

Education is one of the key ways that one can either actively or passively kill a language, owing to its key role in youth development. In Xinjiang, there are currently three types of schools that children can attend; minority language medium schools, bilingual schools, and Mandarin medium schools. Increasingly in China, bilingual schools have been promoted to replace the minority language medium schools in areas with large minority populations. Furthermore, bilingual schools are only intended for minority students; there is no expectation of Mandarin-speaking Han students needing to acquire a minority language. This monodirectional multilingualism erodes the position of the minority language in favor of the dominant language.

This is done with the justification that Mandarin is the standard, common language of China. If one wants to get anywhere in life, they must use Mandarin. On the left, some accept this argument; what could be bad about a common tongue between all peoples? Minority languages are just an impediment to communication between peoples, after all. But this neglects the role that language has in culture; it is through language that stories and traditions are transmitted, that you speak to older generations in, that cultural knowledge is passed down through. As another colonial parallel to China’s policies in Xinjiang, this assimilatory thinking sees parallels in the few efforts of Kriol-English bilingual education in northern Australia. In its brief existence, it offered many Indigenous students a chance for education in a medium that was their native language, whilst also allowing English to be acquired on equal terms. This was not enough for state authorities, who began cutting hours of Kriol medium classes, before scrapping support for Kriol education altogether. Thanks to grassroots efforts more recently, however, Kriol is slowly becoming more prominent as the largest language spoken exclusively in Australia.

China appears to be following a similar trend; the gradual erosion of Uyghur through a unidirectional bilingual education system, funneling minority students towards a Mandarin-dominant society. In this view, the minority language is merely an impediment to be overcome in the formative years of youth. To counter this view, one might also notice that Chinese state media regularly promotes its minority cultures through cultural tourism and dance displays. These contribute to linguicide as well, behind the façade. At the same time as marginalizing the presence of minority languages in domains of common everyday use, the state opts for a strategy of folkorization for the public, whereby language is represented as a source of ethnic entertainment, rather than a serious language for use in the classroom or in business.

This is not to say that bilingual education or the promotion of a lingua franca is an inherently assimilatory method of linguicide, of course. Humans are a naturally social species, and that means a naturally multilingual one too; monolingualism has become a norm only in the modern era, in the aftermath of hegemonic powers asserting cultural dominance over others by force. Bilingualism can and has been done in a way that produces what we call a diglossia. A diglossia is a situation where two languages coexist with one another in a stable bilingual community. Often, the languages are covertly assigned different roles in society, where one that is more prestigious, usually the dominant one, is commonly used in official activities, for example, and the less prestigious, less dominant one used at home and in cultural events. This manner allows for minority language speakers to fully enjoy the use of their language, without locking them out of wider society.

The cause of endangered minority languages has regularly gone under the radar of many in the western left, either through lack of awareness or because of the often subtle nature of the suppression of minority languages. Whilst on the right, anti-minority language policies are driven through senses of cultural supremacy, and regularly result in active, overt and extremely harmful policies, denial and promotion of linguicide on the left takes a more utilitarian form. It is often seen as simply the by-product of the development of a society, that is, the destruction of barriers for communication, something that is compared with the borders of nation-states. How useful would it be if we all spoke the same language? But where nation-states exist in a mutually exclusive manner, many languages can inhabit a single person—something that is not to the detriment of anyone, but to the mutual benefit of the cultural diversity of the world.

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#74: Sep 22nd 2020 at 10:15:17 AM

Random find of the day: A map of Arabic-derived writing systems around the world. Though I'm not sure if the Jawi script for Malay shouldn't have been in the "religious and ceremonial use" category instead.

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#75: Sep 22nd 2020 at 10:28:21 AM

Not coincidentally, that map overlaps pretty neatly with that of the spread of Islam.

Optimism is a duty.

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