Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

l i e s

I think part of the 'PC sexual' nature of games is a reaction to modders, romance anyone mods are really common so can I imagine games designers just deciding to auto include the option.

Edited by Gaiazun on Apr 21st 2024 at 6:33:12 AM

The "waifu/husbando" mentality is strong among gamers, and developers know it. I suppose it's a balance between giving players what they obviously want, respecting diversity, and showcasing healthy/realistic relationship dynamics.

As I said earlier, letting any set of holes boing each other is at least respectful of sexual diversity, if not particularly realistic. Most people aren't that flexible and it sends a weird message that you can turn a notionally gay character straight (or vice versa) as they fall for your PC's charms, or that everyone is bi and up for whatever.

In a truly organic story I'd expect some characters not to be interested in romance, some to be interested in romance with each other (rather than with the PC), most of them to have clearly determined sexual and gender identities, etc. It would be refreshing to have a side quest about hooking two NPCs up, for example.

The PC-sexual nature of many of these stories portrays a grossly unrealistic fantasy of how relationships work.

Dragon Age 2 has that with Aveline (a companion) and Donnen, who you can set up in Act 2 and are married by Act 3. You are also given the ability to try and romance Aveline, but you'll always be turned down.

By a similar token, I always like it in a game when you are still given the ability to try and romance people of a different sexuality and be turned down. It's realistic that characters would have incompatible sexualities, but it isn't realistic that the PC would just automatically know their sexuality (and therefore not to bother trying to flirt). Mass Effect 3 had this a bit with Traynor (a lesbian woman who can still be flirted with by a male protagonist), but Bioware really started getting good at this with Dragon Age: Inquisition and Mass Effect: Andromeda. In both of those games, you can flirt with characters regardless of their sexual orientation, they'll just turn you down. Inquisition actually plays with this a bit with the gay character Dorian, who you can continue to flirt with as a woman even after his sexuality is revealed, it's just as flirty friends, nothing else.

Both games also have examples like Aveline from Dragon Age 2 where their sexuality might line up, but they still turn you down (for example Vivienne in Inquisition and Lexi in Andromeda).

Allowing the PC to flirt with characters who aren't romanceable for any reason is good for roleplaying (especially if you are into stories with unrequited crushes), representation and shows that the world doesn't bend to the whim of the PC.

Edited by king15 on Apr 21st 2024 at 3:32:36 PM

I wonder if actual roleplay would help here (e.g. playing a character akin to The Witcher) rather than a blank slate you can pick (Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate, etc). I remembering cackling like an idiot when you romance all three interests and getting to the big scene. It also didn't turn me off from it nearly as much as when playing e.g. DA:O.

Edited by devak on Apr 21st 2024 at 5:35:11 PM

Again, the idea is that the NPCs should feel like real people, not just a collection of kissing/sex dolls for the player. Sounds like some of these games do that, so good.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 21st 2024 at 11:46:34 AM

I personally like the blank state, and I always prefer it to a defined character.

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Besides the situation you described could happen to you in the first Mass Effect which has a more defined character.

Your options are Ashley if male, Kaiden if female, and Liara for both,.

Also, one of the first two will die, and you get to choose which.

Further games did give Shepard more options.

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Though the game kind of cheats because it is clear that Liara is the writer's preferred option, the game acts like a clumsy matchmaker, trying to force that romance on you.

Edited by jawal on Apr 21st 2024 at 5:15:39 PM

Ultimately it depends on what sort of experience the creator wants the players to have. Blank slate characters and established protagonists are not better or worse than each other; it all depends on what sort of roleplaying experience the game is trying to convey.

While you can certainly argue that about Liara for the 3rd game, I disagree about that in the first game. She's the last romance you meet (hell, it's possible for her to join your party right before Ilos, though in that case she isn't romanceable), has the least amount of content (in just the 1st game) and doesn't have the drama of the Virmire situation, though she does somewhat makeup for it with her mom drama if you take her to Noveria. While it's not a monumental difference between Liara and Ashley/Kaidan for amount of romance, it does lean more towards Ashley/Kaidan. This is probably because they didn't expect the alien characters to be as well liked, which is also why in subsequent games the alien romances of the original crew (Liara from the first game, and Garrus and Tali added as romance options for their return in the second game) were given more prominence (though Ashley and Kaidan being base-breaking characters likely also contributed).

As for everyone being bisexual vs having a range of sexualities, I think some of it comes down to the breadth of available romances. Dragon Age Origins might have benefited from having everyone by bi as it only has 4 main romances, which is probably why Dragon Age 2 decided to go that route, as that also only has 4 main romances (with Sebastian, and to a lesser extent Talis, as extras). It means that, if there's only character you might want to romance out of those 4, you will be able to romance them. Dragon Age Inquisition returned to the 'Origins' method of having a range of sexualities, and increased the number of romances to 8, with 1 straight male option, 1 straight female option, 1 gay option, 1 lesbian option, 1 bi (well pan) male and 1 bi female available for all races (plus Harding as a semi-romance for both genders), with 2 extra straight male options for P Cs of certain races. So if you want to play a homosexual character, for example, you have Dorian (gay) and The Iron Bull (pan), unlike Origins where you would just have Zevran (who I like, don't get me wrong, but not everyone would).

What's the referring to?

Edited by king15 on Apr 21st 2024 at 6:11:11 PM

"And here's the bicurious furry foot-fetishist option."

Still takes me out of immersion a bit when the romance options are set out before the player like a buffet menu.

Edit: It's not referring to anything specific. Just poking fun at the practice of giving the player this incredibly broad range of romance choices.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 21st 2024 at 2:16:59 PM

I assume that is uncommon outside of Dating Sims and maybe Harem anime that may or may not be adapting those games. Do you have any examples of that outside those two cases?

Using the example of Dragon Age: Inquisition, that game doesn't make the sexualities of characters obvious. You can flirt with anyone (because your character won't be able to magically be able to sense their sexuality) and will have to figure out how they swing depending on their response and other dialogue in the game. Plus, with characters such as Vivienne who you can flirt with but never get with (regardless of gender) and Dorian (who is the gay romance option) who you can continue to flirt with as a woman (creating a flirty friendship) in the game, it certainly doesn't just feel like selecting romances on a menu.

Edited by king15 on Apr 21st 2024 at 6:25:42 PM

@ king 15

I personally prefer the Origins approach.

Why did II change that?

I think that - unlike what Bioware claimed-  it was due to not having enough time or resources to present more in-depth characters and trying to finish the game in like one year or something (Origins was in 2009, II was in 2011)

It is probably the same reason why they thought it is a good idea to have all dungeons to basically have the same map, or having the player be just a human, or preventing you from customizing your companions, or having those side quests when you just find a random item like a wine bottle and someone you never met before approaches you to take the bottle and pay you for it with zero explanation on how he ever knew you had it.

Or the waves of enemies, by the Maker, the waves, even Mike Laidlow (Creative Director) described them as "raining men".

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Those were not changes made because of a new philosophy, but instead were due to time restraints and laziness.

And if they were due to a change of philosophy, they were still bad ideas.

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For Liara, I remember that even in the first game, Kaiden and Ashley were behaving like I couldn't take my eyes from her, even before talking to her in the Normandy.

She is also much easier to get into a romance with without intending it, just a couple of conversations where I asked her how she is doing in the Normandy, and suddenly I am in a relationship?

Ashley, at least, won't be romanced unless you express interest (I don't know about Kaiden)

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You are right that in theory she could be recruted last, but in practice why would you? It is clear that  Therum is intended as the first planet.

This was my reasoning the first time I played blind:

1-It is clear that I am still a companion short (you will have a representative of all six classes in the Citadel except for a pure Biotic) could this T'soni be it? If so I should go to Therum first

2-Noveria is where Matriarch Benezia was seen, right? It will be better to speak to her daughter before facing her; she may have some insight to give. So I should go to Therum first.

3- Feros is where Geths were sighted, right? There is no reason to go there first; it probably will only involve more combat, better to speak to Dr. T'soni first and gain some more levels in the process. So I should go to Therum first.

Edited by jawal on Apr 21st 2024 at 7:48:05 PM

I don't think having characters all be bi was a time limitation thing, if anything it's more work since you'd have to get both Jo Wyatt and Nicholas Boulton to perform romance lines for every romanceable character, so it does come down to a philosophy difference.

Regardless, I disagree that it's a bad idea to have all 4 main romances be bisexual. I do prefer the approach of having characters of different sexualities, but don't think that it's a bad idea to have all 4 (main) romances be available for both genders. It's not like it stretches immersion much since meeting 4 bi people isn't that unrealistic, and the existence of Aveline and Varric (the former especially since you can actively try to get with her and she'll turn you down) show that it isn't just about player wish fulfilment. The benefits are that there are more available romance options in a single playthrough, and more romance options overall if you want a same-sex relationship (versus, say, just Zevran for men and Leliana for women in the first game). The drawbacks are that there's less incentive to play as the opposite gender (which is a shame because, though I slightly prefer Wyatt's performance, DA 2 is one of the few games where I think that the voice actors for both gender are near-equally great) and there's less representation of different sexualities.

I also personally thought the characters in DA 2 were overall more deep than the ones in Origins (other than Morrigan, who's my favourite character in the series, tied with Solas, and Leliana, my second favourite).

Edit: With Liara, I certainly can see your point. Personally, I get the impression that her role was to act as a sort of temptation away from the main romance (Kaidan/Ashley), though one you also had the choice of pursuing as a romance on its own if you want. Plus, at least in my experience, I found it easier to turn Liara down then I did Kaidan.

Hell, you listed Varric as the lone exception, while I think that he's the weakest link! It goes to show how different people can react to characters differently. I think the Dragon Age series is one of the game series with the most divisive characters, even more than Mass Effect. Even the most beloved characters (Morrigan, Alistair, Leliana, Cassandra, The Iron Bull), still have very vocal hatedoms. And the one companion I'd say doesn't, Varric, is one of my least favourites (I still like him, I just find him less interesting then most of the other characters).

Edited by king15 on Apr 21st 2024 at 7:28:40 PM

To me, there were more like caricatures, each of them except for Varric has a one subject or one stereotype that he/she wouldn't shut up about.

Like Andres is there to speak about mages 24/7 even in internal banter this all he is talking about.

Fenris is there to talk about mages 24/7, how they should be killed and how he will get his former master.

Isabela is an innuendo machine; she sees an explosion, and all she can think of is "how invigorating"?

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Compare this to the first game's companions, who, while they had their issues and interests, could speak and think about other things.

Morrigan doesn't speak only of her mother, she discusses religion, morality, and politics.

Alistair doesn't talk about Duncan or his sister 24/7, he has the time to tell jokes and ask some important questions about lamp posts.

Leliana and  Whyne tell you stories and fairy tales and offer insight about the world outside Ferelden; they don't talk exclusively about Marjolein or the fear of abominations.

Stein, will talk about candy of all things while presenting his opinion about Feredlden.

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My point is that the companions in II are a little too self-centered, one note tune, to be lickable to me.

I didn't care that much about any of them; in contrast, I like most of the Origins cast, (except for Oghrim,).

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But as you said, to each his own, fan reactions are subjective after all .

Edited by jawal on Apr 21st 2024 at 8:17:15 PM

On romance options: I prefer the fixed sexualities, but Inquisition style ones. If you're just going to have 2 straight and 2 bi romances, so you don't lock out straights out of romances they want (DA:O, all Owlcat games), but can claim that all characters have their own sexualities by locking gays out (again, Owlcat is infamous for this) then you better just make everyone bi.

That's my view. If you have a small pool of romance options (like Origins or DA 2), its probably better to have them all be for both genders. If you have a lot of romances, including at least 2 that can have same sex relationships for each genders (like Inquisition), then its probably better to have a variety of sexualities.

In Origins, no matter your gender, you can have romance with 3 of the 4 options present.

Only 1 out of 4 will refuse your advances

(there is even a bug that allow you to romance Morrigan and Leliana at the same time)

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This is beside the fact that romance is optional in that game and doesn't give you any benefit in gameplay.

Edited by jawal on Apr 22nd 2024 at 12:08:14 PM

To go back a bit to the conversation I started three pages ago, I found it interesting to learn that Dead Rising's Frank West was designed to be more average-looking to appeal to western audiences.

You sure that's a bug? Leiliana seems to be into that stuff. Or at least can be talked into it.

Edited by Kayeka on Apr 22nd 2024 at 3:44:10 PM

Morrigan isn't.

Huh. Never thought of her as a particularly romantic type.

It is a bug.

Both Morrígan and Leliana will give you an ultimatum to end the affair you have with the other one, or else their relationship will not proceed.

Edited by jawal on Apr 22nd 2024 at 2:55:30 PM

She's the tsundere to defeat all tsunderes. She will never, ever, ever admit to your face that she loves you, but she becomes excessively possessive and protective if you make the effort to romance her.

Edited by Resileafs on Apr 22nd 2024 at 9:53:49 AM

It's sort of a thing that despite first impressions, Leliana is the more worldly of the two, having been a former spy. Morrigan otoh has the social skills of someone who grew up in a swamp with a horrible mother.