Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans

I think you're missing the point. McGillis is explicitly a criticism of 'we must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it'. It's why Orga turns on him at the end, and focuses on evacuating his people rather than winning the war - Macky can no longer make a convincing case that he has a plan or has the interests of the people beneath him at heart. Orga and McGillis's officer cadre assumes that anything would be better than the Seven Stars, and ended up working with someone who prioritised shortsighted violence over serious social reform. Like, seriously, why wasn't he using all that power to get kids like him off the streets? Opening an orphanage or something seems like the least he could do with the power he had, and Kudelia demonstrates that you can do that sort of thing without slowing down your high-level politicking.

The idea that he was simply hyper-focused on his goal and took the minimum action necessary to achieve it kind of falls apart when you consider that the action he took did not meaningfully achieve his goals. He didn't prevent one of the highest-profile sex traffickers in the solar system from continuing to do his thing, for instance, which should surely be a major part of any serious effort at reform, especially given what we hear of his rule-by-the-sword philosophy. If one of the most powerful men in the solar system is a corrupt, abusive paedophile, then going after him hard rather than letting him off easy is not just an act of personal revenge, but a political statement. He had a chance to make a big, bold announcement about how, specifically, he intended to reform the solar system while he was making a bid to be its ruler, and didn't. You can't be impartial if you want to change the world - otherwise, what the hell are you trying to change it for? McGillis gave precious few indications of what he wanted his new regime to look like other than 'the strong should rule', which is a huge red flag - we have a word for people who equate people's capacity for violence with their political value, and it's not a very nice word. Starts with an 'f'.

Like, if you're rolling up to Mikazuki Augus of all people and going 'hey, you're really good at killing people, have you considered entering politics?', people can cast literally every aspersion they want on you because holy shit.

I am all on "Mackey is bad guy" train, but I don't think argument supporting that should be "he is bad, because he didn't kill someone". Old man Fareed might be corrupted pedo, but we don't kill people for it and Chocolate man wouldn't profit by killing him either.

It's more that he effectively lets the man get away with it scott free, which is a problem, and as far as methods goal, ending him would have been Pragmatic because of how he destroys his position in Gjallahorn. Even if he had it be as painless as possible and not personal, it would have been one less thing used against him.

x2 Also on Kudelia. The man they went all the way to earth to meet and help, Makanai, was portrayed as being an opportunist only seeking to solidify his power originally, to the point he was one of the "corrupt men" she mentions she would use to help get ahead to help people. The two of them end up working together in a mutually beneficial mentor/protege type relationship that ends up becoming exactly that, where he does decide to use his remaining time to help Kudelia and improve the world, and Kudelia ends up coming to care about him. So being a corrupt member of the system doesn't mean one can'f end up changing things for the better.

Even Mcmurdo was portrayed as a man seeking to just benefit off of Tekkadan to the point he toasts Nobliss Gordon on how they will profit off them, only to end up showing he does care about his men and more than willing to see the worse parts of his organization exterminated for hurting those under him.

Corrupt men ultimately having a compassionate side for subordinates seeking to make changes ends up always being there in Season 2. Only Nobliss is presented as a greedy opportunist with no redeeming qualities till the end, and Ride kills him for it.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 14th 2019 at 5:08:29 AM

Well, more people you kill, more clues you leave behind and he wouldn't have Tekkadan as convenient perpetator to pin it on. Iznario actually doesn't have enough to really ruin Mackey carreer on his own anyway. Rustal just played his card too well.

Also old man got fired and exiled. It is pretty mild punishment, but getting scott free would be if he remained in power.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Oct 14th 2019 at 2:12:20 PM

Okay, I just want to make something clear.

On the one hand, you argue that Tekkadan did achieve something in the end, and that their efforts meant something, and that McGillis was a sympathetic Anti-Villain who had his heart in the right place.

Then you go on to argue that Tekkadan was nothing more than a vengeance-seeking terrorist group and McGillis was a bloodthirsty psychopath.

These two arguments are completely contradictory. Maybe you should phrase your arguments so that it does not look like you are engaging in Double Think?

And again, Nobliss being killed by Ride does not change the fact that he still won in the end. In fact, Rustal will likely make him out to be a martyr and use this as an excuse to scrap his so-called reforms- because in Real Life, dictators who manage to destroy rebel movements always double-down on the oppression, they never stop it. Any reforms are short-lived and intended solely to placate the populace before they turn around and oppress them again. And do not act like Rustal is not the kind of man to do this- the fact that he was willing to side with a disgusting opportunist like Nobliss shows that, in the end, he too only cares about power.

It turns out heroes can be vengeance obsessed and make really bad choices that they think are right! It's why Antiheroes exist.

And its also true that someone can be an Anti-Villain and be so heavily flawed and do so many things that it can make them seem otherwise. Its why there's no singular brand of Anti-Villain. I've seen my fair share of deranged Antivillains motivated by tragedy and misery and mental health issues.

You are looking for a perfect Black/White distinction that doesn't exist.

Nothing suggests at the end that they would even know who killed Nobliss. The man plots profit all the time that screws people over, any number of people he screwed over could join Ride in seeing him killed. Not to mention the Human Debris system nearly lead to Rustal getting killed in a desperate attack. He's seen firsthand how dangerous that kind of desperation is. Not to mention his successor, Julieta, has no plans on letting such a thing happen again because she sympathizes with Tekkadan.

Rustal was portrayed as a pragmatist. He's also not a dictator, and was the one who led the reforms. Also Kudelia was willing to work with Nobliss, even after she realized his true nature, yet I don't see you making the same comments about her.

And why would Rustal give a shit about Nobliss and make him a martyr. He would just build a relationship with his successor instead.

Edited by Envyus on Oct 19th 2019 at 4:14:38 AM

Yeah, Rustal has a very pragmatic attitude to death. He'll do his best to keep you alive if you're useful, but if you need to die, so be it. Sending Julietta up against Mika (and what he does and lets happen afterwards) is a really interesting demonstration of his philosophy.

No, YOU are making the black and white distinction. Or rather, you are attempting to portray both sides as morally equal, when one side practices child-slavery and the other is trying to stop them, even if they resort to morally ambiguous means. In fact, Tekkadan ARE Anti Heroes, including McGillis, and that is precisely what I was claiming. It was you who made them out to be terrorists only wanting power and revenge.

And for that matter, some of the Gjallarhorn people are anti villainous. Doesn’t change the fact that they are on the side of a dictatorship- which Rustal fully supported and fought for, so do not claim that he is not a dictator. He helped them carry out many of their atrocities.

Frankly, even though Rustal is officially considered a Magnificent Bastard, I consider him a full-on Villain Sue.Yes, you read that right. He shows very little interesting personality, yet is played up as if he is cool, and never truly loses, instead being handed victory by the writers via Ass Pull. He fits every criteria.

Edited by MasterN on Oct 21st 2019 at 11:52:27 AM

It's not an asspull, it made total sense he would win, in fact once he got going there was little way he could lose, as he held every advantage.

Also Gjallarhorn does not practice child slavery. They are also not a dictatorship.

Also the sides are not morally equal.

Edited by Envyus on Oct 21st 2019 at 1:39:53 PM

A dictstorship, for starters, has only one in absolute power at the top.

What we hve instead with Gjallahorn is essentially Modern Feudalism. Likewise Gjallahorn can be blamed for their apathetic attitude towards human debris and their refusal to do anything about it, but they never engaged in the practice themselves.

And then Rustal plays his hand when half the Stars are dead, Gaelio has no intention of returning to power, his dad gave it up to Macky, and Mackys pedo-dad has his crimes exposed, the other two did JACK SQUAD, that he turned it into a Democracy so he could benefit and mKe his not-blood related pupil Julietta take over one day.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 22nd 2019 at 12:51:15 PM

Human debris exist only on places where Gjallahorns influence is weak. You can say they don't care about distant colonies enough or that there is lot of corruption, but they certainly don't do slavery nor they actively supported it as far as we could see.

Edit: not to mention that by second season Gjallahorn hired mercenary company sympathetic to human debris enforce laws on Mars.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Oct 22nd 2019 at 9:41:48 PM

The guy in charge of Mars is also an opportunist willing to work with those he thinks he can benefit from, which is why on the off chance Mcgillis did succeed despite all the setbacks. With the coup he let them arrive on Mars after Tekkadan and Macky were sent packing from the last battle.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 22nd 2019 at 12:54:13 PM

IBO coming to Netflix next month, both seasons

Man, this argument really takes me back. The way that you paint Gjallarhorn as a noble-yet-flawed organization and Tekkadan as bloodthirsty terrorists is eerily reminiscent of the days when fans painted Zeon as a noble-yet-flawed organization and The Federation as bloodthirsty tyrants, when in both cases it is the other way around.

Uh do you not know what Feudalism is? It's a pretty garbage system.

Merit based systems designed around brute strength just manage to be even more garbage. That's an impressive feat considering how shitty Feudalism can get. Tekkaden even just wanted to profit off Macky's victory, rather than having a ideology guide them.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 25th 2019 at 2:36:26 AM

Yeah I really wonder how so many people can take "Gjallahorn are not good guys, Mackey is just worse" as "Gjallahorn did nuthin wrong!"

Edited by Tenzen12 on Oct 25th 2019 at 5:58:44 PM

Honestly? Because once you're arguing in defense of the people who are slaughtering political protesters in the streets, enabling chattel slavery, and literally raping children, it's kind of hard to look at a supposedly nuanced take that "okay, the slaughter-slavery-rape guys are no angels, but the dude who stabbed two people who thought he was their friend is definitely worse" seriously.

It's because (a) Gjallarhorn's been able to keep the solar system together for three centuries without a Calamity War, and (b) McGillis's rhetoric is blatantly fascist, he's dangerously incompetent, and he shows alarmingly little concern for his followers for a prospective ruler of the solar system, which is why Orga betrays him. If someone was a hero for fighting evil regardless of their personal ideology or competence, we'd all be singing Iok's praises for trying to solo the Hashmal.

I mean, come to think of it, is there really a huge moral gap between what Iok did to the Turbines and McGillis turning Ein into an insane monstrosity and setting him loose in a populated city?

Edited by Iaculus on Oct 26th 2019 at 11:29:24 AM

a) There's nothing to suggest that another Calamity War would suddenly erupt as soon as McGillis was in charge. Remember, his goal isn't to get rid of Gjallarhorn, he just wants to get rid of the Seven Stars.

b) I don't see how you can call McGillis' rhetoric fascist. Fascism uses meritocratic language to make its racist and nationalist tendencies more palatable, but fascism isn't actually meritocratic by a long shot. McGillis quite explicitly doesn't care about your family line, your social status, your ethnicity, where you're from, or any of those things that fascists are obsessed with — he only cares about your competence. This is not fascist in the least.

c) McGillis shows less concern for his men than Orga because they have different goals. McGillis' goal is to reform Gjallarhorn, and he's willing to sacrifice men to do that. Orga's goal is to protect Tekkadan — so the only time he's willing to sacrifice any of his men is when it's necessary to protect the rest of his men. McGillis is aware of and respects this — there's a scene about it near the end of the second season, where McGillis says something too cavalier about the deaths of Tekkadan's members and gets punched in the face for it, and his reaction is to apologize to Tekkadan. The fact that McGillis accepts that some deaths are unavoidable in an armed conflict does not strike me as evil or cruel so much as pragmatic and having realistic expectations. It certainly doesn't make him worse than the Seven Stars, who, again, set up false flag operations to "justify" slaughtering political protesters en masse.

d) McGillis didn't do shit to Ein. Blaming Ein going apeshit on McGillis is ridiculous — all he did was present the option "hey, you could get him in fighting shape again with an A-V system, you know." Gaelio is the one who accepted the offer (despite thinking that A-V systems were badwrong). Ein is the one who used it to start mobile suit battles in the middle of a city. McGillis did not drive Ein insane and then turn him loose on innocent civilians as you're suggesting.

In any case, the worst possible interpretation I can see of McGillis' vision is that the merit that his meritocracy selects for is the ability to kick ass and nothing else. This would be a terrible system because "fighting good" doesn't correlate with "actually good at your job" for any job except fighting. It would also leave vulnerable populations (the disable, people who are unwilling or unable to fight because they have other obligations like caring for family members, etc) at the bottom of the social ladder as the least meritorious. So you'd have the possibility of incompetent idiots at the top, while deserving people suffer pointlessly at the bottom.

The problem is that that's exactly how it already works under the Seven Stars. So the worst possible outcome under McGillis is a Full-Circle Revolution where the only thing that changes is that the people at the top are the best warriors rather than the most politically connected. If there's literally anything better than that (which I think is likely, given that due to his personal history, McGillis is unlikely to look kindly on people who prey on the most vulnerable members of society for their own benefit), then it's going to be better than the Seven Stars.

Of course I would defend Gjallahorn if they got called for anything else then what they actually did (and there is lot of that).

Regardless, it's true without Gjallahorn there might not be instantly another Calamity War, but you can bet there will be lot of other wars and many banned technologies will get used again.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Oct 26th 2019 at 7:14:37 PM

Again, McGillis does not want to disband Gjallarhorn. He wants to remove the Seven Stars as the uncontested entrenched leadership and replace them with people promoted based on merit. He does not want to change Gjallarhorn's role as the protectors/police force of humanity, he just wants to change how they're run.

To worse. Mackey doesn't have capacity run Gjallahorn or pretty much anything that comes with lot of power and responsibility. If he had he might run his coup in way that would give him actually chance to succeed (like not killing potential allies or not depending on Gundam worship).

No way he could keep peace. Blocks would either start fight with each or against Gjallahorn itself.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Oct 26th 2019 at 8:52:46 PM

McGillis wants the universe to be run according to personal military strength. That's not a stance that is particularly compatible with peace, and he seems to have little but contempt for how peace has softened and decayed the solar system since the glory days of the Calamity War. Remember that his hero was a child soldier who didn't outlive the war that made him famous.

I call him fascist because fascism is very specifically an ideology of violence, the anti-utopian belief that humanity only becomes stronger and more beautiful through conflict. Fascism is usually racist, because racism is a useful other using tool to justify their ideology of purifying murder, but it's not necessary - Francoist Spain, for instance, preferred to otherise the poor, and fascists have historically been very flexible about who exactly they consider to be [i]untermensch[/i]. Glorifying violence and a heroic death is much more of a central vein in fascist rhetoric, and McGillis's brutal fairytale plan inspired by a mythologised past is hella fascist.

As for what else he could have done to help people, he's a fleet commander and a member of the Seven Stars by the second season. There is very little he can't do. You can argue that he had higher goals, but he can multitask. He has people for that now. Orga certainly does, and he's operating with way less resources and influence. All it would take is a scene where he's opening an orphanage or using his power over Earth's trade routes to crack down on sex traffickers.

On Ein, he specifically did not say to Gaelio 'I am going to permanently hook your friend up to a towering war machine as a limbless torso'. He kept his warnings deliberately vague to lure in a desperate man, and as head of a secret lab, he had full control over what they would do to Ein and could make a reasonable guess about what the process would do to his mind. Deploying the Graze Ein was also key to his plan to discredit Iznario - it wouldn't have worked without a mobile suit battle frying Edmonton's electronics and wrecking its infrastructure, which is a big part of why he isolates and kills Gaelio to keep Ein going on his mad rampage after Kudelia.