Justice League vs. Teen Titans

Guy that died fighting Damien was Tusk.

http://www.comicvine.com/tusk/4005-100909/

Just why is it so difficult for writers to write likable characters nowadays? I mean jesus, does everyone have to be an unlikely dbag in series now. I get it in my live action. My anime. My games and now my comics too?

Its too much wangst man. Just too much. I miss the silver age which I was born after which I never got to experience, but still claim to miss anyway. XD

Writers nowadays equal 'flawed and well rounded' with 'all flaws'.

Problem is when you have all the flaws, there is nothing endearing or likeable left. I mean come on, common sense will tell you if you met half these dbag hero/protagonist characters in real life you would think they were deranged or had mental problems.

Yeah I will admit I don't really like the overly prickly or angsty heroes (whether or not they are guys or gals) that much these days. I like Raven of course but I wouldn't really consider her unnecessarily angsty.

A rare example of justified. Fricking dad is TEH Devil who is constantly trying to possess her.

Much better than mommy or daddy doesn't love me or enough or that one chick doesn't love me and is suspicious of me despite the fact I'm constantly lying to her about my secret.

I think anti-angst isn't much better than over-angst. If anything it's usually worse.

And not gonna lie, I find the silver age corny corny corny for the most part. I like watching my heroes suffer and overcoming that suffering. I like Complete Monsters being just that and getting their well deserved brutal comeuppance. People do have flaws, and I think we all have our jerk moments. Now on that note Bad Blood admittedly does have Bats be really unlikable and Talia was so bad it ruined that character for me in the film which is my biggest complaint with it. But I can't say everyone was made so mean in this movie as to be completely unlikable.

Also Mad Hatter felt like Young Justice Joker in that he was stripped of any charisma and watered down. Arkham did him much better.

Damien's a total brat but he's still badass enough to where I can respect him and still has a sense of justice, just a very unforgiving and flawed one.

edited 11th Feb '16 11:09:20 AM by Vertigo_High

I will admit he's a good fighter. I just find his attitude very annoying (it doesn't fit his age) and his voice doesn't help. I honestly am curious on how he is going to turn out when he grows up though, perhaps I will find him much more likable then.

On the slight off topic of Joker. I have been noticing that his animated appearances have been getting even more....bloody and destructive (Batman The Dark Knight Returns being a very recent example) as time has been going on. Admittedly his character in the comics underwent that and some of these are adaptions after all...

And it's causing even more fights on whether it's okay or not for Batman to kill him...

edited 11th Feb '16 11:29:10 PM by Bleddyn

I'm not picking on you or anything, but the "should Batman kill the Joker" argument had been going on for a very long time.

Frank Miller's graphic novel "The Dark Knight Returns" (which came out in..what, '85? '86?) on which the animeted version was based, was one of the first, if not the first, iterations to depict the Joker as a hyper-violent anarchic mass killer. It fits the tone of the work, because "The Dark Knight Returns" is hyper-violent and anarchic (Miller said he wanted to depict a world that, in his opinion, very clearly needed Batman and super heroes in general). Prior to that, he'd been primarily a grandiose theif with no regard for human life, but he didn't go out of his way to rack up a body count.

edited 12th Feb '16 8:13:49 AM by Robbery

I know about that. I just noticed that these arguments are making a full circle again

It's kind of escalated from bantering fan conversation to something that some people really seem to get upset about.

If Batman killed Joker he would be out an archenemy. Archenemies don't just grow on trees. I guess they could make Ivy the new archenemy...

I don't remember where exactly but Batman said at one point in time that he fears killing the Joker because he thinks that it will just cause an even worse villain to rise up and take his place.

Although the reason why he can't kill him is obviously merchandising, Joker makes a lots of money for DC.

edited 12th Feb '16 4:43:23 PM by Bleddyn

The same reason, as Tom Baker once pointed out, why Dr. Who can't kill the Daleks.

The real issue, though, is less what fans say than what the writers themselves say. For awhile now, a lot of Batman writers have seen fit to actually make Batman's not killing the Joker an issue that gets angsted over in-story. We all know the Joker ain't ever gonna get killed, as he's too popular and too useful as a villain (and lucrative too). Makes you wish they'd quit harping about it, as it's an issue that can't really go anywhere.

To be honest I didn't really care about how Talia was portrayed because I never really like the character and I still hated that she drugged Batman to have sex with him to make Damien.

It's not a double standard rape, it's clearly depicted as a horrible thing by a terrible, terrible person, also that's really more appropriate for the Batman Bad Blood discussion, because I doubt Talia will be mentioned in this film.

There would be no need for the Should Batman Kill The Joker argument if they hadn't turn him into a sadist and a killer. He was interesting enough as a mad genius obsessed with jokes. DC has no one to blame but themselves.

edited 13th Feb '16 8:13:16 AM by Sijo

This is a sentiment that can be applied to many creative decisions DC has made in the last 2 decades.

It's odd, too, because before the introduction of Damian, Talia was never depicted as a horrible, horrible person. She was torn as to loyalties (Batman and Ra's) and was frequently amorally pragmatic, but she wasn't horrible. Given that Mike W.Barr and Jerry Bingham's Batman;Son of the Demon gave us a son of Batman and Talia produced the old fashioned, not to mention mutually consensual way (no drugging involved), why Morrison didn't just decide to make that story canonical as it stood is a bit of a mystery.

Silently Honest, I don't know if you watched the movie, but they hardly played it the way they did it in comic. They made her less evil, they kept the drugging.

Did you watch bad blood? Because it revealed her feelings toward her son and towards Bruce as being completely true to form of a crazy rapist person. This is why I referred you to that thread.

edited 13th Feb '16 11:03:51 AM by SilentlyHonest

Having a dad like Ra's prolly made her that fucked up.

Ok, but before Bad Blood was released, Talia got rather Anti-Villain treatment in SOB, which is why I didn't mind her becoming more evil in next movie.

edited 13th Feb '16 11:27:58 AM by Sunchet

Fair enough, just remember that Talia was never a good person, just a person who thought they were in love.

Bat's prolly only saw her best side when they were together. I mean she's usually tryng to get him to join their side so I honestly believe she's pretty much complicit in all her father's schemes, it's just the only times they ever argue is if its something personally related to her like Bats cause her hormones get in the way whenever he's involved.