Another French troper here, though I'm mostly lurking rather than posting.
I would like to point out that I've never understood the whole "right-wing is strong on surveillance and police work while left-wing is soft", which I think is utter garbage. No left-wing government in France can really be blamed to have ever weakened "law and order", because that would be stupid.
On the other hand, Sarkozy gutted proximity police and police forces in general during his tenure. So much for right-wing policies increasing security, those [expletive deleted] have weakened it more than anything, under fallacious pretenses of efficiency.
But then, I consider Sarkozy to have been slightly more competent than Trump overall.
Oh, bother.
If rightwing governments were really consistently strong on security, they wouldn't be pulling shit like cutting police funding the way Theresa May did back when she was Home Secretary of the UK.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
I don't know about the rest of the world but stateside, it's more about not questioning security forces (from local police to intelligence agencies) rather than supporting them better, or creating an environment where their job is easier.
Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Oh, bother.
"Police can do whatever they want to whoever they want!...As long as we don't have to pay anything for it."
Disgusted, but not surprised
When it comes to surveillance, that issue is neither right-wing nor left-wing, it is more a matter of moderate and extreme and the old question "how much freedom are you ready to give up for security...and how much freedom is too much". Remember, the stasi did surveillance way, way tighter the Nazis did. In Germany this is actually an issue the liberals and the Greens are on one page against the Union (while the supposedly more left wing than the FDP SPD agreed to some laws I really, really dislike and hope that they will be rolled back or adjusted). Anyways, having more police officers is way, way preferable over soldiers patrolling the streets.
But how about a closer look on Macron? What has he done so far in office and which part of it was good and which part not so much? And how much does it line-up with what he campaigned on?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If they're carrying around shotguns and assault rifles (and when I was in Paris this year, they did), I would much, much rather see a soldier than a cop. At least the soldier has some training in escalation of force.
And either way, there were both - armed soldiers at the Eiffel Tower, armed cops at the Champs-Élysées.
edited 13th Oct '17 4:38:51 PM by math792d
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Honestly, my current stance is that I am extremely fed up with politicians who seem to think "Capitalism" and "the interests of the rich" are the same thing. They are really, really not, and suppressing wages is a good way to fuck your economy over.
Excuse me the question, but wasn't that always the case? I remember the first time I was in Paris in the mid-1990s...they weren't patrolling the streets but at multiple attractions we visited were police officers with heavy weapons. I remember how shocked I was back then, because I was not used to either that much police or said police being armed that obviously and heavily.
As a general rule I don't think that Soldiers should be used within the own country. A specialized and for those situations trained police force is the better call. If for no other reason that police officers usually swear to protect the people, while soldiers swear to protect the country.
The hire and fire Mentality of the UK and the US is very damaging, but there are a lot of countries which strive just fine with some form of capitalism in the mix.
edited 13th Oct '17 11:30:23 PM by Swanpride
Oh, bother.
The relative impotence and demonization of unions in the USA doesn't help matters either.
The business against union mentality doesn't help at all. Ideally you have both groups talking with each other so that they can find good solutions, not fighting with each other.
@Julep: Nearly everyone to the right of Melenchon is some kind of market capitalist - largely because command economies simply don't work under most circumstances. The points of contention are what policies should be put into place to ensure that the deleterious effects of capitalism are mitigated, and who's going to pay for those policies. We've moved to calling these policies "socialist."
In the UK, it's called Thatcherism, although the current crop of Tories are actually much worse on this score. That's possibly relevant here because, as I've mentioned before, George Osborne and Macron are very close friends, so I've been very wary of Macron from the outset. He's certainly showing signs with his apparent comments and decisions that have the George Osborne stamp all over them... but at the same, he's (at least, not yet) not as bad as Osborne.
I can't make up my mind whether that's a sign that he's not as bad as Osborne, or simply more intelligent at subterfuge.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
His is also a friend of Schulz (the left-wing politician who run against Merkel), so that isn't really saying anything....I have friends who fit in the while spectrum for right to really, really left.
United Earth
Like Contra's interlocutors who keep telling her "YOU'LL GET THE BULLET TOO!"?
edited 14th Oct '17 8:01:20 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
use political terms to describe, not insult
Yes, Macron's friends with some Labour Party figures, too (Blairites such as Mandelson, Chuka Ummuna, etc.). Did you know that Osborne is viewed as 'socially liberal' and considered 'left-wing' by Tories? Osborne has (genuinely) left-wing friends, too.
One of the smartest things to do in politics is make sure you have friends everywhere and of every political stripe. As far as I recall from his Rothschild years, he was viewed as the guy who could get on with anyone.
edited 14th Oct '17 8:12:26 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
On the difference between police and soldiers guarding the streets, I saw FAMAS-toting French Army soldiers near the Eiffel Tower when I went to Paris three years ago.
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
Something non-presidential: French women flood Twitter to 'squeal on pigs'
Friday the 13th boded ill for the patriarchy: that afternoon, Sandra Muller, a French journalist riding the post-Harvey Weinstein wave of pent-up frustration, launched a Twitter call for women to “#balancetonporc,” or “squeal on your pig”, by posting names of men who had sexually harassed them at work and details of their behaviours.
She began with her own story, naming her former boss who had once told her, “You have big breasts. You’re my type of woman. I’m going to make you come all night long.”
As of Sunday, the hashtag remains the number one trending hashtag in France, and number three worldwide, as thousands of women join in.
Stories from journalists and others who work in the media were among some of the most frequently posted.
Giulia Fois, a radio journalist, recounted a disturbing encounter in a widely re-shared tweet: “An editor-in-chief, major radio station, small hallway, grabbing me by the throat, ‘one day I’m going to have sex with you, whether you want it or not.'” She added that at the time she had filed a complaint and had been “neither believed nor heard.”
...
Universities and even high schools also figured prominently among the #balancetonporc stories.
“This university professor who offered tutoring sessions in exchange for nude pictures. Complained. Never investigated,” wrote a woman from Lyon.
...
According to a study of the French government in 2014, 20% of women in France will experience sexual harassment at work during their lifetime, and 30% of those women will never say anything.
That hashtag made me vow never to go on the france subreddit ever again. The majority seemed to be made of assholes practicing Victim Blaming 101.
What are the current statistics on reports of sexual harassment at work to the police (or other institutions or authorities) in France? And how much percentage of those lead to a court case?
edited 15th Oct '17 4:34:28 PM by Quag15
No idea, but the obvious answer is "too much harassment, not enough reports, and even less harassers being punished".
So, I am watching Engrenages Season 6. At some point, the team is tracking a suspect's second cell phone, used to make private calls while the official line is under investigation. One of the cops says:
- Lt Escoffier : "You were right, Jaulers really has a second cell. It reeks of Paul Bismuth"Judge Roban: "Reeks of what?"Cmd Berthaud: "Paul Bismuth. It's the name we give to cell phones activated with a fake ID".
Considering the series heavily draws on actual police slang, I find it hilarious to imagine today's police casually using Sarkozy's alias to talk about a common law breach. Really cements his legacy.
edited 16th Oct '17 3:20:35 PM by Julep
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
Wow, caught red-handed and then tries for implausible deniability. The good old days. (And his lawyer should've just arranged for the two of them to meet in trench coats and fedoras at a Paris cafe—just so the story's guaranteed to become a movie).
About the earlier story: France minister Schiappa plans anti-street harassment law
Marlène Schiappa's proposals include on-the-spot fines for catcalling and lecherous behaviour in public.
The mounting sexual assault allegations against Harvey Weinstein have revived debate about male predation in France.
President Emmanuel Macron said on Sunday he would be stripping the Hollywood producer of the prestigious Legion D'Honneur award.
During his first in-depth television interview, Mr Macron also said his government would take steps to better define acts of sexual violence under the law.
Under Ms Schiappa's plans announced on Monday, a taskforce of politicians will work with police and magistrates to establish what sort of behaviour constitutes sexual harassment.
"The idea is that society as a whole redefines what it is acceptable or not," she told La Croix newspaper (in French).
Street harassment and catcalling are already illegal in some countries including Portugal and Argentina.
But in speaking to RTL, Ms Schiappa said the French bill, which will be voted on by M Ps next year, was "completely necessary because at the moment street harassment is not defined in the law... We can't currently make a complaint".
Discussing what constitutes harassment, Ms Schiappa cited an example of a man following a woman for several blocks, or "asking for your number 17 times".
"We know very well at what point we start feeling intimidated, unsafe or harassed in the street."
...As well as cracking down on harassment, the new legislation will also give people who experienced sexual assault as a child more time to make a police complaint, and toughen laws on sex with minors.
United Earth
[sigh] Faites, faites donc. Quand il faut, il faut...
I just don't want this to be disproprtionately used against POC. I'm kinda worried that it will.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I dunno, so far he is straight in Cazeneuve's line, which is indeed hard on surveillance, but without the racist undertones that tend to define right-wing security nowadays. Trying to reinstate a "proximity police" is very much left-wing.
I honestly don't know if you can afford not to be strict on surveillance in France right now. We got three major terror attacks in a two years timespan, and at the moment the trial for a fourth one from five years ago is going on. I fully agree that adding cops and expanding their powers will not solve the problem in the long run, and that you need to look at development or education to tackle these issues, but those are changes that take time, and you can't really afford to let things be while you wait for something positive to happen.
It's the sliding scale of idealism vs pragmatism. Being fully idealist would be completely horrible.