The General Russia Thread

Keep in mind that Fox (owned by media mogul Rupert Murdoch) is beating the far-right, pro-Trump drum. Them bringing on extreme anti-Russia guests in order to discredit them is on par with their agenda: they want to discredit the Trump-Russia connection.

CNN is eh. They are centerist to a fault and sensationalist. But they are also more mainstream.

Accusing all Russians of being spies and terrorists pretty much seems xenophobic to me.

None of which changes the fact that the mentioned xenophobia does exist, and is supported by influential people and media. Also, the problem is with Peters himself, not with the Fox (this time).

Even if that was true (even Trump's feared pro-Russian policies weren't really seen yet), the mentioned xenophobic layers do exist, and they are influential.

edited 18th Jul '17 5:56:24 PM by Lordforlorn

It is, but only one of the people quoted said that. The rest criticized the Russian government, fair or not is not inherently xenophobic.

I really don't believe they're prominent, yes I'm sure there is some xenophobic left overs from the Cold War but much of the hostility towards Russia is because of its actions.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Actually, Quigley called all Russians spies, while Peters called Russians terrorist. Also, I really doubt that such warmongers as Peters are indeed worried enough about anyone for their 'criticism' to be taken seriously, or that a similar outburst from a Russian politician towards Western governments would be dismissed so easily.

edited 18th Jul '17 5:48:33 PM by Lordforlorn

Xenophobia will always exist, unfortunately. But in America's case, the saying "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you" is apt when it comes to Putin and his agents.

The main thing between Russia and their agenda with the US right now is Trump and the Republicans' utter incompetence. They've just utterly failed at pushing through one of their key domestic platform points here while holding the majority in both legislative houses and the presidency due to their internal divisions, public outcry against it and the reality that winning elections is harder than actually running a country. Trump the manchild, meanwhile, keeps digging himself deeper. He is pretty certainly guilty of obstruction of justice trying to block the investigation into Russia's meddling with the election, . His inner circle and possibly himself are likely guilty of soliciting material aid from a foreign power to win an election which is illegal. The mere fact that such aid was even offered is a serious breach of international relations and that's before you get into the email hacks that helped discredit Clinton. This is not nothing, as Trump and cronies keep trying to insist.

The greatest benefit Putin's gotten so far is that we're going to be too messed up to mess with him for quite a while. That alone is a win for him.

edited 18th Jul '17 6:17:36 PM by Elle

Peters is pretty clearly talking in the geopolitical context, where 'the Russians' refers to the Russian government, just as 'the Americans' would refer to the American government. It's an extremely common shorthand in international politics. That brings us to his criticisms of the Russian government, and while he comes across as... excitable in that transcript (which, let me remind you, is not from a neutral source, but a far-right, currently pro-Russian propaganda outlet), there's really not much that's polite to say about the Russian government's behaviour in Syria or its choice of allies. Assad is beating out ISIS by an order of magnitude in 'most atrocities committed' - he just isn't as fond of advertising. After seeing the latest hastily-covered-up mass grave in Damascus on Google Earth, it's not hard to start cracking a little around the edges.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Do you think that the Russian government couldn't use this reasoning with American manipulation in and around Russia?

Because, well, they could (and do, actually).

Again, I doubt that such 'criticism' would be accepted so easily if pro-Kremlin sources would accuse Western governments of aiding extremists and murderers. Because it wouldn't look much better.

edited 18th Jul '17 6:26:11 PM by Lordforlorn

Still, accusing fucking fidget spinners of all things of being subversive tools to corrupt the Russian youth is on a whole other level of xenophobic idiocy.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Don't think it's worse than calling every single Russian a spy and puppet of Putyin.

Both sides overstepped the mark, actually.

No, that "All <insert demographic> are spies!" shit is sadly something that's been done all too often throughout history.

Thinking the spread of a toy is foreign subversion, of all things? That's xenophobic shit that isn't as common. That "Not a word in Russian!" line was particularly hilarious.

This is combining xenophobia with the fear of a new-fangled toy and/or gadget. Two kinds of idiocy put together.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Not when you are serious about it, which Quigley was. I still don't think it's better to equals every Russian person, including, say, an old woman visiting her immigrant granddaughter in the US, to Putyin, and, following the narrative, to a new Hitler.

Yes, this is xenophobic fearmongering and it's even more frightening that those practices are becoming common again.

edited 18th Jul '17 6:55:21 PM by Lordforlorn

You can draw equivalency once we have pundits in the USA worrying that Matryoshka dolls or something are corrupting the American youth. TBF, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was someone claiming that.

Disgusted, but not surprised

I wouldn't be surprised either, but still: xenophobia won't be anyhow better just because it's expressed in an 'old fashioned way'.

edited 18th Jul '17 7:01:48 PM by Lordforlorn

I don't know all of what the US might have done toward Russia since the cold war but whatever of it might be real and not propaganda to justify what Putin's doing now I'd be willing to bet Putin started it. We wouldn't be antagonistic toward him if he wasn't antagonistic towards us and the EU/NATO.

I'm dropping this though as you've never shown any disposition to being convinced of anything that doesn't fit your pro-Putin views and I've got better things to do tonight than waste my time trying.

Feel free, since I haven't experienced any willingness to reconsider your Putyin-is-to-blame-for-everything-regarding-Russia narrative on your part either.

edited 18th Jul '17 7:09:22 PM by Lordforlorn

5 Rubles have been deposited in your account

Inter arma enim silent leges

Lordforlorn, you're still doing that thing where you argue that evil acts are OK because other people do them. Stop that.

Like, yeah, a number of Western governments have also done some profoundly fucked-up things. So what? This is the Russia thread. You're derailing.

What's precedent ever done for us?

So if I'm not anti-Putyin, then I'm a payed agent. A very tolerant and progressive view indeed.

I'm merely against this "holier-than-thou" attitude. I mean: calling every Russian a spy is not equally xenophobic because it's not about toys? Really? Because this has nothing to do with tolerance and Western values.

Moreover, it's not a Putyin-bashing thread either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Quigley's claims would have been covered as much as this nonsense about this toy.

edited 18th Jul '17 7:32:23 PM by Lordforlorn

One person called all Russians spies. This fidget spinner scare is being picked up by a bunch of people in Russian media. It's not equivalent.

If only one Russian reporter or blogger tried to claim fidget spinners were an evil Westerner plot to corrupt Russian youth, it probably wouldn't have gained much coverage either.

Disgusted, but not surprised

If it wasn't a Congressman speaking on one of the most influential news network in the US, it wouldn't be a problem either.

They're probably going to mandate that all propeller driven aircraft be grounded until the fidget spinner crisis has passed, as the safety of countless young airmen are at risk of being distracted by what are essentially massive steel fidget spinners in midair.

edited 18th Jul '17 7:46:56 PM by FluffyMcChicken

Maybe the Kremlin will retaliate by opening up a black market in Matryoshka dolls and Fabergé eggs in the USA. We all know how addictive those Fabergé eggs are.

edited 18th Jul '17 8:02:35 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

You know what, I had a big responce half typed when I realised something. It's not worth it, some people just aren't interested in debating in good faith and we all have better shit to do with our time.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Not as much for not being anti-Putin but the deflection, et tu arguments, false equivalency and changing the focus of the discussion to accuser instead of addressing it are exactly what the troll farms posters do all the damn time.

Your deflection of the main argument of the absurdity of the fidget spinner being a western conspiracy to undermine Russia with a click bait link with several dubious claims written in the article, specially with tanking out of context the content of the videos from where those allegations were made, hoping that whoever saw that article was too dumb or lazy or both to watch the videos and understand the context besides a single cherry picked out of context quote that blog took and ran with it to create an outrage.

The clear context that both you and the jingoists in that blog outright ignored because it is convenient in order to create a false sense of equivalency, is that politicians meeting with Russians aren't meeting with regular Russians, they are meeting with diplomats, politicians and state agents, all of which are under the the administrative reach of Vladmir Putin.

There isn't anything in the video where the Congressman said all Russians are spies besides, every arranged meeting between Russian officials and US politicians or US officials are done with Russian agents that answer to Putin. Not every Russian citizen is a spy narrative that you and that abomination of a blog are claiming to exist.

Also, I follow US media quite often. It is hardly the same Cold War Era propaganda levels, the only time the US hears about Russia in media currently is when it is related to something the Russian government or Russian proxies did to the US or another country like hacking institutions, Russia's actions in Syria or Ukraine or the Trump/Russia connection.

You'd be hard pressed to see the same things in the US or Western Europe media as the things you see in Russian media. There aren't news hitting with sensationalist drivel like Russian something is undermining American/European youth or Russians are sending their whatever thing to undermine our society and bullshit like that, I'd include that Russians are supporting groups to undermine our political process as one but the Russians have been caught red handed with those by supporting far-right groups in the Americas and Europe.

There aren't constant ads, news or articles about how Russian life style, people or values are constantly running Western Civilization either being spammed by most mainstream media outlets and neither by state run news agencies in the countries that have them. The worst you get is a click baity with watch this crazy thing in Russia and the sensationalism surrounding the Trump/Russia connections but hardly a constant stream of news meant to create antipathy towards Russia.

edited 18th Jul '17 8:28:03 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges

Most of the outlets about Russia in the concerning Western media (with emphasis on the 'concerning' part) are about bashing the Russian government, often with lies (some of which also have been busted here), while lionising several of its enemies, no matter who they are besides that. Is that not Cold War-level propaganda? This whole "everyone is potentially a troll who is pro-Putyin"-theme also shows this fearmongering very well.

I admit, Quegley's claim isn't wholescale xenophobia. I was wrong at that. Nevertheless, I uphold what I said above.